Player wanting to break down walls and doors with weapon as prolonged process

[Sir_Chivalry]

So I have a player in an online game who reasons we don't need much in the way of door opening skills as any barrier can be overcome by him power attacking for full and smashing through. Now, he invested in being a big strong warblade so I don't want to ruin his fun but it seems reality would sink in pretty quickly

(Before anyone mentions Mountain Hammer, he doesn't want the maneuver as he thinks power attacking will do him just fine)

So should I allow him to do with without any restrictions? Most weapons he'd be using are hardness 10 or more and stone walls are hardness 8 but real life logic (which I know has little place) says if you beat a sharp sword against a stone wall you get a dull sword.

Also I find it a little funny in D&D that a spiked chain or pick can't damage an object (piercing) but a sickle or a garrote can. I suppose it's one of those scenarios where you need to use DM judgement

As it stands right now I'm going to allow it but have cautioned him that spending a minute loudly hacking a wall is going to draw random encounter checks in a dungeon. And possibly a cave-in if he's too wanton in it (if anyone knows a fair way to do this please let me know, I don't want to spring it without a lot of warning and pushing from the warblade)

[sleepyphoenixx]

By the rules attacking something doesn't damage your weapon (unless it says it does, as some special abilities of monsters do).
Weapons also don't get dull or require sharpening.
So power attacking an adamantine wall with your steel greatsword is a viable and rules-legal demolition tactic if you don't care about being fast or subtle. Or triggering any potential traps.

Nearby monsters hearing and coming to investigate is perfectly acceptable.
As for cave ins or buildings collapsing i'd say it's fine as long as you give him fair warning (cracks spreading along the walls, dust/pebbles raining from the ceiling, the building shaking etc.).
If he doesn't get it with just that you could also let the entire party roll knowledge: architecture checks (even untrained, "cracks in ceiling are bad" doesn't require much knowledge).

Otherwise there's really no reason not to let him do it unless that's not the kind of "serious" game you and the rest of the players want to run (which would probably force someone to take the skillmonkey route, something many players prefer not to do).

[Sir_Chivalry]

So far that aligns with what I was thinking

The thing that confuses me is the party is practically crawling with skill monkeys anyways. I suppose chalk it up to being proud of character abilities and wanting to prove he can contribute? I know as a person who plays skill monkeys and martial types I enjoy being able to contribute

[sleepyphoenixx]

So far that aligns with what I was thinking

The thing that confuses me is the party is practically crawling with skill monkeys anyways. I suppose chalk it up to being proud of character abilities and wanting to prove he can contribute? I know as a person who plays skill monkeys and martial types I enjoy being able to contribute

If your party already has skillmonkeys they'll probably let the meatshield know when to keep it in his sheath, if he doesn't manage himself.
I'd only worry about it if it actually becomes a problem. Ime it's best to let the party figure out things like that among themselves.

[Segev]

You might be within your rights to insist that he spend extra time maintaining/sharpening his sword if he abuses it like this. No material cost, but something he has to attend to more conscientiously every night than others might, because he uses it so hard. Mostly an RP "cost."

But yes, the biggest thing is that his technique is LOUD and SLOW. Make him roll out each round of attacks and damage - this may come off as passive aggressively trying to annoy him, but it's actually important to know how long THIS time takes - and roll perception checks for nearby monsters. Have them react appropriately. You're tracking exact time in rounds, here, so you can know exactly where they get to and what they have time to set up for.

[Telonius]

Here's one that will challenge both your meatshield and the skillmonkeys: a magical trap that casts Repel Metal if it's targeted with a Sunder, Open Lock, or Disable Device. To get through it, there's a wooden key. (Or, they can improvise wooden lockpick tools or whack it with a Greatclub).

[Troacctid]

The drawbacks of busting through walls are:

You need the right tools. A sledgehammer is ideal, especially an adamantine one (2,500 gp). A shortsword is insufficient. A greatsword, maybe. Mountain hammer should make it possible with any weapon.
You need time. It takes a while to break a hole through a stone wall.
You'll make a lot of noise. Everyone will hear it. They won't necessarily investigate it, but you'll lose any shot at stealth.
You technically don't need to, but it's a really, really good idea to make sure the wall isn't load-bearing first. Any time a player tells me they want to mountain hammer through a wall, I call for a Knowledge (architecture and engineering) check.

When it's a door instead of a wall, it gets easier because you don't usually need to worry about 1, 2, or 4.

[Keltest]

The drawbacks of busting through walls are:

You need the right tools. A sledgehammer is ideal, especially an adamantine one (2,500 gp). A shortsword is insufficient. A greatsword, maybe. Mountain hammer should make it possible with any weapon.
You need time. It takes a while to break a hole through a stone wall.
You'll make a lot of noise. Everyone will hear it. They won't necessarily investigate it, but you'll lose any shot at stealth.
You technically don't need to, but it's a really, really good idea to make sure the wall isn't load-bearing first. Any time a player tells me they want to mountain hammer through a wall, I call for a Knowledge (architecture and engineering) check.

When it's a door instead of a wall, it gets easier because you don't usually need to worry about 1, 2, or 4.

This pretty much covers my thoughts as well. Kicking down a door is all well and good, but walls are difficult to break by design. Unless you have something specifically intended for the breaking of walls or other heavy objects, youre probably going to break your tools well before you break the wall unless its specifically a magic weapon. Even then, everything in the vicinity will notice.

[False God]

I tried to kick through drywall once. Even at 18" spacing that stuff is HARD. I've taken a sledgehammer to stucco (old stucco) and yeah, it'll knock a sledgehammer-head-sized hole in the wall...and that's about it. I couldn't even imagine attempting to smash through wood, much less stone. I'm not saying you can't, I'm just saying it's tougher than most people give it credit for thanks to movies and stuff. Doors and stuff don't tend to "give" in the middle, it's the hinges/latch and how well they're secured to the wall and door that will give.

Even window glass like we always see zombies breaking through is pretty dang hard to break, a buddy of mine tried to punch through a car window....and tore all the ligaments in his hand. (angry drunk people do crazy stuff man)

And none of that is even talking about the sort of vibrations you're dealing with running back up the blade/handle/hilt into your arms (protip: don't hit a 3/4 inch steel tube with an aluminum baseball bat OMG MY HANDS).

----
Anyway, even though D&D has all these numbers laid out for how strong things are in game, personal experience tells me these things are absolutely inaccurate, and I would have no issue with being the DM who told my players "swords don't smash through stone walls". Hammers help, but only to a point. *buh dum tish!*

[Lapak]

Yeah, I'd be in the gang of people that ruled against trying to chop down a down wall with a greatsword, even if the rules didn't cover it. I'd probably rule it along the lines of 'roll damage against the wall, then roll a Break check against the sword you're swinging as hard as you can at a stone wall' when you try to do demolition with something not designed for the task.

Honestly, if the character is strong enough to smash a wall they're strong enough to lug along a sledgehammer with which to do so rather than using their valuable and prized weapons for the task.

[Antipositive]

By the rules attacking something doesn't damage your weapon (unless it says it does, as some special abilities of monsters do).
Weapons also don't get dull or require sharpening.
So power attacking an adamantine wall with your steel greatsword is a viable and rules-legal demolition tactic if you don't care about being fast or subtle. Or triggering any potential traps.

Nearby monsters hearing and coming to investigate is perfectly acceptable.
As for cave ins or buildings collapsing i'd say it's fine as long as you give him fair warning (cracks spreading along the walls, dust/pebbles raining from the ceiling, the building shaking etc.).
If he doesn't get it with just that you could also let the entire party roll knowledge: architecture checks (even untrained, "cracks in ceiling are bad" doesn't require much knowledge).

Otherwise there's really no reason not to let him do it unless that's not the kind of "serious" game you and the rest of the players want to run (which would probably force someone to take the skillmonkey route, something many players prefer not to do).

This is the best answer if you ask me. While it may be unrealistic in terms of our reality, an excess desire for realism is part of why characters without spellcasting get left so far behind. No point ignoring rules that'll actually allow them to contribute.

[magic9mushroom]

So should I allow him to do with without any restrictions? Most weapons he'd be using are hardness 10 or more and stone walls are hardness 8 but real life logic (which I know has little place) says if you beat a sharp sword against a stone wall you get a dull sword.

Also I find it a little funny in D&D that a spiked chain or pick can't damage an object (piercing) but a sickle or a garrote can. I suppose it's one of those scenarios where you need to use DM judgement

The hardness 8 is still subtracted from his attacks. It's only adamantine that ignores hardness.

The passive-aggressive way to make him stop is to simply make him roll every attack and make the wall's HP per section as the rules suggest, with several sections needing to be destroyed in order to actually fit a person through (say, 6-inch by 6-inch section has the 15 HP/inch; you need Escape Artist checks to get through a hole less than 2 1/2 ft by 2 1/2 ft, so that's 25 sections). The other players will not tolerate him holding up the game in that fashion and will use faster methods.

(I'd also think long and hard about awarding him the Fatigued condition after this kind of activity.)

[AvatarVecna]

The hardness 8 is still subtracted from his attacks. It's only adamantine that ignores hardness.

The passive-aggressive way to make him stop is to simply make him roll every attack and make the wall's HP per section as the rules suggest, with several sections needing to be destroyed in order to actually fit a person through (say, 6-inch by 6-inch section has the 15 HP/inch; you need Escape Artist checks to get through a hole less than 2 1/2 ft by 2 1/2 ft, so that's 25 sections). The other players will not tolerate him holding up the game in that fashion and will use faster methods.

(I'd also think long and hard about awarding him the Fatigued condition after this kind of activity.)

The rules for attacking objects in general refer to splitting up big objects into sections, but "this door" isn't the kind of big object they're talking about. You pop over to the section specifically about walls and you see that the HP given (the same HP as given in the general Object Destruction rules) is specifically for a 10ft by 10ft section of wall. The point of being able to split up large objects into sections is so you don't have a scenario where you knock down one wall so hard the entire castle keels over, you have to attack the individual sections of wall for the same reason dealing a billion damage to one dude doesn't spill over to hurt the rest of the army you're fighting.

BSFs have enough trouble contributing without arbitrarily having one of their options nerfed to 1/400th its normal utility.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The hardness 8 is still subtracted from his attacks. It's only adamantine that ignores hardness.

The passive-aggressive way to make him stop is to simply make him roll every attack and make the wall's HP per section as the rules suggest, with several sections needing to be destroyed in order to actually fit a person through (say, 6-inch by 6-inch section has the 15 HP/inch; you need Escape Artist checks to get through a hole less than 2 1/2 ft by 2 1/2 ft, so that's 25 sections). The other players will not tolerate him holding up the game in that fashion and will use faster methods.

(I'd also think long and hard about awarding him the Fatigued condition after this kind of activity.)

I don't really see a point making an already subpar option for getting past obstacles even worse just because a player wants to use it anyway.

You know, instead of buying a Rod of Escape, Boots of Big Stepping or at least an adamantine weapon.
Or using any of a dozen other options that don't require you to spend several rounds (or even minutes) letting everyone in the vicinity know you're coming.

Also this:

BSFs have enough trouble contributing without arbitrarily having one of their options nerfed to 1/400th its normal utility.

[ThatMoonGuy]

The realism argument is the one I find really troubling. Of course in real life breaking down a wall is hard but this is not real life and real people don't have Warblade levels and power attack. I don't see why the character has to hold up to some quasi-realistic standard when this is high fantasy game that allows all sorts of crazy.

[Troacctid]

Just to be clear, the rules absolutely cover being unable to damage a wall with a sword. RC 106: "The DM can rule that certain weapons just can't effectively deal damage to certain objects." If it makes no logical sense to be able to damage a particular object with a particular weapon—then you can't damage it. That's why you need the proper tools (or mountain hammer) in order to execute this strategy.

[King of Nowhere]

Also I find it a little funny in D&D that a spiked chain or pick can't damage an object (piercing) but a sickle or a garrote can. I suppose it's one of those scenarios where you need to use DM judgement


doubly funny because a pick is designed specifically to inflict damage to objects. a pick is pretty good at coup-de-grace because of its high critical, so the designers at least acknowledged that it is made to strike hard at something that cannot defend itself. but it's pointless because objects are immune to critical. otherwise, the best way to damage a wall would be a scyte :smalleek:

anyway, in reality a thin piece of metal slammed against a large, thick piece of metal breaks first. i never made rules for it, but i did acknowledge the principle in my campaign, when i made clear that the only reason the party could get away with it - indeed, the reason why they were needed to break into a few specific places - is that they had epic-grade weapons.
so, assuming your player also has a powerful magic weapon, or deigns himself to bring an adamantine sledgehammer, there is still the traps and the monsters reacting. you can also rule that his blow breaks a hole into the door, now the enemies are pelting him with arrows/spells through it while it's still too small for him to pass through and engage.

[Leon]

Sure he can do it but its going to take a long time with a weapon not designed for the task he wants to perform with it. Having once had cut a hole in a ships deck with a Longsword i speak from experience (Even with a Adamantine weapon it took a long time)

Picks not being good at breaking through a wall is ultimately a DM call as sure they are not allowed to Sunder but sustained mining of a wall/door etc is not Sundering a weapon.


An aside: I once had some feral orcs break down a wooden wall to get at the PCs as they had bottlenecked the door with a Tanky Paladin on total defense, the PCs couldn't figure out what was making all the noise until they were attacked from the rear.

[Calthropstu]

I tried to kick through drywall once. Even at 18" spacing that stuff is HARD. I've taken a sledgehammer to stucco (old stucco) and yeah, it'll knock a sledgehammer-head-sized hole in the wall...and that's about it. I couldn't even imagine attempting to smash through wood, much less stone. I'm not saying you can't, I'm just saying it's tougher than most people give it credit for thanks to movies and stuff. Doors and stuff don't tend to "give" in the middle, it's the hinges/latch and how well they're secured to the wall and door that will give.

Even window glass like we always see zombies breaking through is pretty dang hard to break, a buddy of mine tried to punch through a car window....and tore all the ligaments in his hand. (angry drunk people do crazy stuff man)

And none of that is even talking about the sort of vibrations you're dealing with running back up the blade/handle/hilt into your arms (protip: don't hit a 3/4 inch steel tube with an aluminum baseball bat OMG MY HANDS).

----
Anyway, even though D&D has all these numbers laid out for how strong things are in game, personal experience tells me these things are absolutely inaccurate, and I would have no issue with being the DM who told my players "swords don't smash through stone walls". Hammers help, but only to a point. *buh dum tish!*

... I can punch through dry wall. I only did it once, but I punched a wall in frustration and a hole appeared. Never punched a wall again. But drywall isn't the kind of wall we're talking about.

Wooden walls absolutely. Edged weapons, blunt weapons... they'll make short work of wood. Axes would be best. Stone and other materials is another matter.

Let's say we have 3 stone walls.
1 is a stone wall along the side of a road. It is made of mortar and rocks haphazardly placed together. Sure, you can power attack your way through this. Most of the damage to the wall is going to be from the impact rather than cutting, but sure.
The second is a massive castle wall made of precision cut stone slabs, held together by mortar reinforced by steel beams and the sheer mass of the wall itself. The weight of the wall itself prevents damage to the bottom of the wall. This is why siege engines usually started attacking the top of a wall and worked downwards. Power attacking the top of the wall would result in similar to the first example. Power attacking the bottom would be an exercise in futility resulting in a broken sword.
The last is a rock face of a cliff. It is held in place by the earth itself. It would take 100 years to power attack through it, resulting in hundreds, or thousands, of broken swords. Siege engines would be useless. Even modern technology would try going around it rather then through it unless absolutely necessary.

[Crake]

Also I find it a little funny in D&D that a spiked chain or pick can't damage an object (piercing) but a sickle or a garrote can. I suppose it's one of those scenarios where you need to use DM judgement

The section in the phb describing hardness specifically adds that the DM can and should allow for appropriate methods to overcome hardness of various objects and even do double damage, and I believe the examples were fire on wood curtains, and a pick on stone, axe on wood, or ripping up a scroll.

It also describes ineffective weapons not being able to damage it at all, like a garrotte on a wall

[Gnaeus]

The realism argument is the one I find really troubling. Of course in real life breaking down a wall is hard but this is not real life and real people don't have Warblade levels and power attack. I don't see why the character has to hold up to some quasi-realistic standard when this is high fantasy game that allows all sorts of crazy.

I think I agree. Let the BSF kool-aid a wall every so often.

The real reason I can see not to isn’t realism. D&D has all kinds of cinematic mundane stuff like dodging explosions. The only reason I would worry is that it was stated that he was in a party of skill-monkeys and it’s borderline trolling to wander dungeons smashing stuff while half your team is going “wait! Let me check that! I can pick the lock quietly! Let me do my job!”

[Troacctid]

I think I agree. Let the BSF kool-aid a wall every so often.
The break DC of a stone dungeon wall ranges from 35 to 65, per the DMG. Most BSFs are physically incapable of Kool-Aiding them by RAW without additional investment of build resources.

[ThatMoonGuy]

I think I agree. Let the BSF kool-aid a wall every so often.

The real reason I can see not to isn’t realism. D&D has all kinds of cinematic mundane stuff like dodging explosions. The only reason I would worry is that it was stated that he was in a party of skill-monkeys and it’s borderline trolling to wander dungeons smashing stuff while half your team is going “wait! Let me check that! I can pick the lock quietly! Let me do my job!”

Yeah, but this is a problem that comes even before that specific situation. Depending on the party composition and the kind of campaing being ran I'd say that it's really odd to have a single fighter type when everyone is roguish. But that's just an out of context guess though there seems to be some prior issue there.

[Yogibear41]

Pretty sure there is a rule in the phb, that basically says that in regards to sunder there are certain situations where it just doesn't work.