Unearthed Arcana 14/01/2020

[Dork_Forge]

Haven't seen this posted yet so...

https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/UA2020-Subclasses01.pdf

New subclasses for the Barbarian, Monk, Paladin and Warlock no clear theme except extraplanar with the Paladin and Warlock. The title says part 1 so we can expect more subclasses in the near future too!

So far Path of the Beast seems pretty interesting (ideal for Shifters thematically even if not mechanically), the option of sharing Reckless Attack is a new spin on giving people advantage. The Way of Mercy looks like a fixed Way of Tranquility, a much more reasonable heal with Flurry compatability, a necrotic smite (ouch Kensei) and a weird aura, actually really like this Way. Oath of the Watcher's is an interesting idea, I like the aura (potential abuse with Swash though) but otherwise the CD and other features fall a little flat, not a terrible Oath mechanically just a but meh besides the aura. The Warlock is a werid one, Genie themed supportlock the idea of persuading your patron is a neat way of reflavouring a check (but the check can just be made trivial and locks you into having Persuasion), not super against this, just a bit weird.

[CNagy]

The Way of Mercy Monk seems really cool to me, but at 50% of the reason why is that it's basically a Tesshu Fujioka from Tenchu: Wrath of Heaven subclass. Doctor/Assassin Monk? Yes please.

[HappyDaze]

The Beast barbarian is a little weird. I'm not sure I like that the features can change each time you use it. You don't really pick a beast to emulate, rather you emulate "all beasts" and I'd rather it be more like Totem where you make your choices.

[micahaphone]

My thoughts:

Path of the Beast Barb

Huh, my DM once homebrewed some perks like Path of the Beast when my barb got resurrected, with a rodent still inside the corpse.
It'd be funny to play one in Eberron as a Shifter, have All the Shifting!

Bite is the Lizardfolk racial trait but better, I'm probably not reading Claws correctly but it seems to give you 3x attack at level 5? That seems crazy strong, but I guess you're limited to a built-in short sword. Tail gives you a d12 with reach weapon on your body, pretty nice.

Magical built in weapons at level 6, just as nice as it is on the monk. Extra movement abilities are nice, especially not requiring rage. I love the long jump ability - once in a campaign we breached a door with a homemade grenade, then my barb with boots of striding/springing jumped across the room and critted a swing at the evil wizard across from it. The surprise was shocking, an easy surrender.

I'm glad for the rule tip about jump distance, but man it feels janky.

Barbarian style mind control / smite at level 10? Amazing.

Level 14 is a nice barb-themed paladin aura.

Mercy Monk

Hell yeah healing monk!
And micro Smite monk!
Is this UA just a bunch of "let's paladin-ify some other classes"?

Noxious Aura is an amazing deep strike control spell
Lesser restoration for cheap is nice, but 11th level is late to have it.
The capstone is a better version of the Feign Death spell. Okay, I guess.

I love the rule tip: "you're a creature"

Watcher Paladin
It's Horizon Walker, this time as a Paladin! More hints towards a Planescape book?

Moonbeam, Counterspell, Banishment, Hold Monster and Hallow are nice to have as domain spells.

CD to give out advantage on mental saves for a minute, or CD to turn extraplanar beings.

7th level, Aura of micro Alert feat, very nice.

15th level stinger on any caster who cast something that someone saved against.

Level 20 is only a bonus action, not an action, that's cool. Adv to hit and banishment once a turn on dealing damage is certainly thematic. Would be hilarious vs the demon lords or Tiamat or other level 20 extraplanar enemies.

Genie Warlock

Polymorph is the big standout on the expanded list, what happened to needing an invocation to do it once per long rest???

The vessel/lamp gives you a bonus to perception checks, and kind of turns an ally into a familiar, letting you cast spells through them? Interesting.

level 6, choose an elemental resistance, and share it with your tethered ally, good for when you know what kind of cultists you're going up against the next day.

Level 10 is an odd banishment ish thing.

Level 14 explicitly calls out multiverse, more Planescape/spelljammer nods? Making a cha check (hopefully w/ proficiency) vs your spell save is weird, that's basically a flat DC 8 roll. the effects are okay ish.

[Willie the Duck]

Okay, first thoughts:

Path of Beast Barbarian- nifty movement related powers at level 6. Level 3 ability is okay, and raging if you ever find yourself unarmed makes a lot of sense anyways, but otherwise the benefits are limited.
Way of Mercy Monk - healing and anti-range. A useful new avenue to explore for party roles. Sadly it isn't enough healing to replace any of the other party-healing options, so it will be a supplemental role.
Oath of Watchers Paladin- Great high level spells (Counterspell, Banishment, Hold Monster) along with Chromatic Orb, which to anyone else would be 'meh, okay, whatever,' but to a paladin is more 'oh, hey, that makes a lot of sense.' Channel Divinity to boost saves (including Wisdom) on allies is a good use. Aura of +cha-to-initiative is a nice straightforward boost to allies. 20th level ability is amazing, but capstones are supposed to be.
Noble Genie Warlock- thematically a good next choice. Lamp special focus is odd (so now we can have a Genie patroned tomelock who walks around with both book and lamp which disappear when they die?) but the effect is quite solid (at distance touch spells, +cha to perception checks). Elemental Resistance is also nice. It doesn't fit together into a cohesive whole, but perhaps it isn't meant to.

[P. G. Macer]

Part of what irks me about the Noble Genie Patron is that there is very little distinguishing one type of genie from another aside from the Level 6 feature. Maybe it’s because I’ve seen the concept done to the Nine Hells and back in homebrew, but the spell list in particular strikes me as awfully generic, though I’m not sure how WotC would be able to fix that without making four separate spell lists for each genie type, which I’m pretty sure breaks several of their design principles, and could easily be cumbersome and set bad precedents.

[Wildarm]

Way of Mercy monk:

Grung Way of Mercy monk would be a pretty cool. Your natural poison abilities make Hands of Harm very potent. Tacking 3d10 necrotic damage onto an unarmed strike for 1 Ki is nice at higher levels. Shame so many things are not affected by poison in this game. Otherwise, I'd really like the class.

Path of the Beast subclass provides some unique options:

- Tail lets you keep a shield in hand and still have a 1d12 Reach weapon. Combines well with a mobile race for reckless hit and run strikes. No GWM though so higher level your DPS may suffer.
- Claws effectively give you an extra attack. Combines well with the concentration-less Ranger UA hunters mark.
- The bite is a potential source of THP. Nothing fantastic there.

Upper abilities are pretty meh.

Oath of Watchers:

Pretty straightfoward Paladin class. Advantage on Int/Wis/Cha and +Cha to Initiative makes you a solid support for the team. Capstone is straight up bananas vs elementals, fey, fiends, and aberrations not on their home plane. You get a banish and you get a banish, everyone gets a banish!

Noble Genie Patron:

- Polymorph and Bigby's Hand are nice spell options for a Warlock.
- +Cha to perception and elemental resistance of your choice for you and a friend is nice if you have some intel on your expected foes.
- Protective Wish to swap places as a reaction could be interesting. Lots of interesting options. Polymorph your ally and use them to soak hits against you so you don't need to make concentration checks. Chainlocks can have their familiar as the tethered creature. Swap places to have them take one for the team or to keep them alive if they are targeted. Bonus points if you have armor of agathys up at the time to punish the attacker.
- Banish 1/day for free is nice with possible recharge if they suck at CHA saves.
- Collector's call is weird as the more powerful your spell DC, the harder it is to persuade your patron to help you. Reasonable cost to recharge the ability at level 14. Sadly, since it scales exactly with your skill proficiency, you always have a 35% chance of failure. Perhaps your familiar or an ally could take the help action to aid you on the check. Would be a decent source of healing and legend lore then.

[Smoothjedi]

I think it's pretty funny the Warlock gets a pay to win mechanic.

[EdenIndustries]

- The bite is a potential source of THP. Nothing fantastic there.


Seems like it heals normal HP, not gives THP. No? Which seems much better to me.

[Luccan]

At a quick glance I like all of these. Another shapeshifting class/subclass is always welcome, the assassin/doctor/martial artist feels interesting, another non-alignment based paladin is welcome, and genie warlocks are definitely missing. That said, Protective Wish and honestly the tether aspect in general seems a bit weird. The largest benefit it would give would be to other PCs, but it requires a good deal of trust (especially since you can use it to protect yourself) and understanding between players. Also, dip Rogue for Persuasion Expertise and you beat Collector's Call DC over half the time, but given the restrictions and non-offensive benefits using it in combat doesn't seem worth it.

[Wildarm]

Seems like it heals normal HP, not gives THP. No? Which seems much better to me.

Totally read that as having THP. Good to know. That is a lot better as you can slowly heal up by eating your foes. Just expect your allies to look at you oddly as you're happily chewing on that black pudding. "Puts hair on your chest!"

Actually stacks with Lizardfolk bonus action bite too. All the rage skills/attacks mesh pretty well with the lizardfolk in general. Shame they don't get a strength bonus.

[MaxWilson]

Level 14 explicitly calls out multiverse, more Planescape/spelljammer nods? Making a cha check (hopefully w/ proficiency) vs your spell save is weird, that's basically a flat DC 8 roll. the effects are okay ish.

Are you kidding? That feature is the best thing about the Noble Genie patron. Gold at those levels is essentially unlimited (look at the DMG treasure tables for a CR 17+ creature), and this is a way of converting gold into advantages, including a no-save disadvantage to someone's saving throws and attack rolls. That's got to be exploitable, especially in fights against things with legendary resistance where you want to burn through resistances as quickly as possible.

I'm imagining something like a team with Noble Genie + Shadow Monk + Lore Bard + Diviner, where the Lore Bard gives the Noble Genie a Bardic Inspiration die in advance, the Noble Genie uses Collector's Call to impose disadvantage (and uses Bardic Inspiration to make sure they pass the check) on an enemy Pit Fiend, the Monk hits the Pit Fiend a bunch of times to use up as many legendary resistances as possible, and then the Diviner hits it with a Wish (Planar Binding) to take control. Then the Noble Genie sacrifices some treasure and they move on to the next enemy.

That's just a sketch--there have got to be other ways to exploit at-will no-save disadvantage. Dominate Monster? Magic Jar? Command Undead (Necro 14)?

I'm not sure it's enough to justify the opportunity cost of Warlock 14, but at least Collector's Call is pretty interesting.

[Millstone85]

so now we can have a Genie patroned tomelock who walks around with both book and lamp which disappear when they die?There is a sidebar that says they are the same item.

[Spiritchaser]

I think the paladin oath is mechanically fine (not sure about the capstone but I’m not sure how often that even matters)

It’s fairly generic and would probably fit a lot of player concepts but...

It fails where the conquest paladin succeeded brilliantly.

There’s no reason NOT to have another solid team buffing paladin with good generic strength and its own particular area of relevance, but we do already have quite a few of those... and I think the priority should be On something more.

Conquest functions as melee control/debuff, but in a conceptually restrictive package. Why not play with the formula a bit and come up with a control/debuff play style in a more approachable character concept?

[Slayn82]

Noble Genie Warlock is pretty good for an hybrid Support class. I bet I will have a lot of fun playing this guy. And always having your spell focus and a light source at hand isn't bad.

Genie's Entertainment is perfect for some defensive uses, as an ally could be instructed to stay there until sent back. Shame we can't use Collector's Call into an ally in the court to remove his Stun and create a false time stop.

Speaking of Collector's Call, 500 gp isn't too heavy a cost. Specially to give a BBEG Disadvantage on attacks and saves for a turn. Abuse is prevented by the whole minute to recharge process, but you can grab something valuable and run if you need.

[stoutstien]

I really like these. Not perfect, but all three are solid concepts that are strong but not over the top.

Best UA In a while.

[Tharkun]

I am having trouble wrapping my head around Collector's Vessel and the creature it binds. What creature? what limits on the creature? where does the creature come from?

It is very confusing to me.

[8wGremlin]

Noble Genie Warlock- thematically a good next choice. Lamp special focus is odd (so now we can have a Genie patroned tomelock who walks around with both book and lamp which disappear when they die?) but the effect is quite solid (at distance touch spells, +cha to perception checks). Elemental Resistance is also nice. It doesn't fit together into a cohesive whole, but perhaps it isn't meant to.

I think you got that wrong, it isn't at distance touch spells, it's ANY SPELL!
so even simply you can target your big burly fighter, and then cast any self AOE spell.


When you can cast a spell, you can deliver thespell from your space or the bound creature’sspace.

You stand way back and let them fight and casts from their space.

[Theaitetos]

Okay, first thoughts:
Noble Genie Warlock- thematically a good next choice. Lamp special focus is odd (so now we can have a Genie patroned tomelock who walks around with both book and lamp which disappear when they die?) but the effect is quite solid (at distance touch spells, +cha to perception checks). Elemental Resistance is also nice. It doesn't fit together into a cohesive whole, but perhaps it isn't meant to.

No, it says that when you choose an object as Pact Boon (Tome, Blade, Talisman) that boon will become your Vessel instead, so you won't have a book & a lamp, but a lampy book. They give an explicit example in the UA.


Totally read that as having THP. Good to know. That is a lot better as you can slowly heal up by eating your foes. Just expect your allies to look at you oddly as you're happily chewing on that black pudding. "Puts hair on your chest!"

Just pointing out, you don't have to eat your foes… your friends will do fine too. Now anyone can become a "healer" for the barbarian. :smallcool: It's a vampire/lycanthrope theme, which fits nicely imo.
The barbarian can also snatch some small animals and eat those, or gnaw on the bones of undead.



Mercy Monk

The capstone is a better version of the Feign Death spell. Okay, I guess.


It can be used on any enemy, even all kinds of fiends or aberrations that are immune to most conditions. It's an overpowered save-or-die ability. Even worse though, is that it can be abused with immunity to the paralyzed condition: You won't get paralyzed but are now immune to all damage for 17-20 days!

Just use this ability on an ally of yours – they can willingly fail the save! – and then cast Lesser Restoration to remove the Paralyzed condition. Now you have immunity to all damage for half a month. Comparison: The 9th-level wizard spell Invulnerability gives you immunity to all damage for 10min. Crazy op $%&t!

[nickl_2000]

My favorite thing in this whole UA is that a Way of the Mercy Monk can punch others (and themselves) healthy.

[jaappleton]

Regarding Genie getting Polymorph:

I mentioned it to the designer, with Sculptor of Flesh being an invocation and all. Spell List was designed with the genie powers in mind, of course, and that tends to trump the Invocation list.

So a Chronomancy Patron would have Slow, for example, because it makes sense for them to have it.

We’ll see how it does in Playtest but I think it’ll go through as is.

——

Now for the subclasses themselves:

......I have actually zero complaints here.

Paladin gets a nice anti-caster vibe, all abilities are solid. Counterspell on their list is niiiiiice, pairing them up with a Monster Slayer Ranger would be thematic as heck.

Monk seems like they had another pass at the old Tranquility Monk UA, and this one is much better. I love the mix of offense and defense here.

Barbarian? I REALLY enjoy this. Typically I struggle to ever want to be a Barbarian besides Totem, since Totem is so damn good. This one? It’s.... Its pretty darn nice, I gotta be honest. And very evocative of the flavor. (Curious, was this ever considered to be a Ranger conclave during concept? Seems like it could’ve been either.) I think conceptually it works best for a Barbarian that already gets a natural attack like a Lizardfolk or Tabaxi, and go with the natural attacks all the way, forgo weapons, and treat your transformation as you going feral. But that’s me.

Finally the Warlock. I dig it. 10th level is Super Banishment but can’t be Counterspelled. Getting to share Elemental Resistance with an ally is very nice. But you ain’t never have a friend like me. ;)

Overall, a great UA. Everything here is unique. Really dig it!

[micahaphone]

Are you kidding? That feature is the best thing about the Noble Genie patron. Gold at those levels is essentially unlimited (look at the DMG treasure tables for a CR 17+ creature), and this is a way of converting gold into advantages, including a no-save disadvantage to someone's saving throws and attack rolls. That's got to be exploitable, especially in fights against things with legendary resistance where you want to burn through resistances as quickly as possible.

I'm imagining something like a team with Noble Genie + Shadow Monk + Lore Bard + Diviner, where the Lore Bard gives the Noble Genie a Bardic Inspiration die in advance, the Noble Genie uses Collector's Call to impose disadvantage (and uses Bardic Inspiration to make sure they pass the check) on an enemy Pit Fiend, the Monk hits the Pit Fiend a bunch of times to use up as many legendary resistances as possible, and then the Diviner hits it with a Wish (Planar Binding) to take control. Then the Noble Genie sacrifices some treasure and they move on to the next enemy.

That's just a sketch--there have got to be other ways to exploit at-will no-save disadvantage. Dominate Monster? Magic Jar? Command Undead (Necro 14)?

I'm not sure it's enough to justify the opportunity cost of Warlock 14, but at least Collector's Call is pretty interesting.

Max, your "Are you serious" leads me to believe that you and I focus on fundamentally different things in dnd.

It's spending one action (and maybe 500 gold a fight) to have a chance to give your allies a free Heighten metamagic, or to prevent one turn's worth of damage through disadvantage to hit. It's nice, but doesn't seem to be must-have. If you have to build a team around it, I'd rather have a more generally useful feature, like Hurl Through Hell giving you a one turn banishment and a big pile of psychic damage, or Great Old One giving you a permanent mind-slave, easily achieved if you have pact of the chain or Find Familiar through the pact of the tome. Other features that you pretty much need to build a team around (Assassin's reliance on surprise for example) are usually rated as middling.

If they buffed this feature by removing other parts (casting Legend Lore w/o money cost seems damn pointless, but I don't hate it as much as Undying Warlocks having it as an expanded spell) I'd probably like it more. This appears to be a non-healing support focused warlock, as opposed to the celestial warlock, and maybe they could replace the heal option with some other ally buff.

Also, I definitely think the strongest part of this patron is having Polymorph on the expanded spell list. Other warlocks need an invocation, a spell slot, and a 1/LR restriction on casting it. This patron can cast it multiple times per short rest.



---------------------------


Regarding Genie getting Polymorph:

I mentioned it to the designer, with Sculptor of Flesh being an invocation and all. Spell List was designed with the genie powers in mind, of course, and that tends to trump the Invocation list.

So a Chronomancy Patron would have Slow, for example, because it makes sense for them to have it.

We’ll see how it does in Playtest but I think it’ll go through as is.



If that's true, this feels like a massive power boost to those patrons. With how limited warlock casting is, what extra spells are available is a big boost. Chronomancy would be a great patron, though.

[MaxWilson]

Speaking of Collector's Call, 500 gp isn't too heavy a cost. Specially to give a BBEG Disadvantage on attacks and saves for a turn. Abuse is prevented by the whole minute to recharge process, but you can grab something valuable and run if you need.

Well.... abuse is mitigated by the one-minute recharge, but it's not like you can't find ways to buy yourself a minute during combat if you plan ahead, whether via hit-and-run tactics (Hasted Phantom Steed, or a buddy with Dimension Door) or Rope Trick or Maze.

It's basically the inverse of the tactic BBEG monsters like dragons sometimes use where they spook the party into casting a bunch of buffs, and then the BBEG monster vanishes for a few minutes until those buffs wear off.


Max, your "Are you serious" leads me to believe that you and I focus on fundamentally different things in dnd.

It's spending one action (and maybe 500 gold a fight) to have a chance to give your allies a free Heighten metamagic, or to prevent one turn's worth of damage through disadvantage to hit. It's nice, but doesn't seem to be must-have. If you have to build a team around it, I'd rather have a more generally useful feature, like Hurl Through Hell giving you a one turn banishment and a big pile of psychic damage, or Great Old One giving you a permanent mind-slave, easily achieved if you have pact of the chain or Find Familiar through the pact of the tome. Other features that you pretty much need to build a team around (Assassin's reliance on surprise for example) are usually rated as middling.

If they buffed this feature by removing other parts (casting Legend Lore w/o money cost seems ---- pointless, but I don't hate it as much as Undying Warlocks having it as an expanded spell) I'd probably like it more. This appears to be a non-healing support focused warlock, as opposed to the celestial warlock, and maybe they could replace the heal option with some other ally buff.

Also, I definitely think the strongest part of this patron is having Polymorph on the expanded spell list. Other warlocks need an invocation, a spell slot, and a 1/LR restriction on casting it. This patron can cast it multiple times per short rest.

I'm sure we do play D&D differently, but I'm confused by the fact that you do seem to value permanent mind slaves, but not ways that make it easier to get permanent mind-slaves via Command Undead/Wish (Planar Binding)/Magic Jar. This is especially odd given that you're responding to a post about how to leverage Collector's Call to turn a Pit Fiend into your permanent mind-slave.

(Also, the Great Old One feature Create Thrall doesn't give you a permanent mind slave, but that's probably just a mistake by a rules writer who didn't realize how weak the charmed condition is in 5E, and mistakenly believed that it meant "considers you a trusted friend" like it does in AD&D.)

The Legend Lore thing is kind of cool, IMO, for days when you're not in a rush and don't want to sacrifice treasure but do want to gain information. It's more flavor than anything, and I would agree that that part is just okay.

Having Polymorph on the spell list is okay, I guess, but that's a mid-level thing not a long-term benefit: like Necromancer skeletons, it's best at levels 6-10ish not because it gets worse but because other options come online which are even better. You don't still want to be spending your concentration on turning your Bard buddy into a Giant Ape when he's a 17th level Bard with 9th level spells like True Polymorph of his own.

Tethering is interesting for kiting (you remain safely out of range/behind total cover while the wizard's owl familiar spews Eldritch Blast rays), and alternately Protective Wish is also a pretty interesting at-will if you have a tanky creature in your group, like a beefy Barbarian or a Planar Bound Nycaloth that you can tether.

Overall we probably agree that the subclass as a whole is merely okay, certainly not a must-have. But I think we do disagree on the value of the 14th level feature for creating perma-slaves because that is clearly the standout feature in the same way Bend Luck (not Tides of Chaos) is the standout feature on the Wild Sorc.

[8wGremlin]

I am having trouble wrapping my head around Collector's Vessel and the creature it binds. What creature? what limits on the creature? where does the creature come from?

It is very confusing to me.

Any creature that happens to be there, it doesn't care what CR, or what type, or anything, it has to be willing, and has to be seen, and be with in 100'

that's it:
i could be your fighter friend, your familiar, a willing rat, a horse, a dragon, as long as it's a creature, there, seen, with 100' and willing. that it

[DeTess]

I am having trouble wrapping my head around Collector's Vessel and the creature it binds. What creature? what limits on the creature? where does the creature come from?

It is very confusing to me.

The creature it binds is a creature of your choice that happens to be there to be targeted. Given that it encourages cooperation and gives buffs to the target, you'd generally use it on a familiar or party member.

[Willie the Duck]

There is a sidebar that says they are the same item.

Yep, got it in the second read-through. As I said, that was a first impression post.


I think you got that wrong, it isn't at distance touch spells, it's ANY SPELL!
so even simply you can target your big burly fighter, and then cast any self AOE spell.

Right, in this case I got it, I just focused on what I considered the most important part.

[Makorel]

Barbarian currently has me wondering how unarmed attacks work with making off-hand attacks as a bonus action. with claws that's 4 attacks (maybe).

Also think they should change "The Noble Genie" to "The Genie Noble". I was getting mixed signals before I figured it out.

[micahaphone]

Also think they should change "The Noble Genie" to "The Genie Noble". I was getting mixed signals before I figured it out.

Ah, but Genies often appear in a puff of smoke or a mystical cloud. Maybe the name is telling us that Genies are a Noble Gas, and are chemically inert?

[Belac93]

Found a way to break the Mercy Monk



Your skill in manipulating your ki to heal increases. When you restore hit points to a creature using your Hands of Healing, you can also end one disease or a condition from the following list affecting the target: blinded, deafened, paralyzed, or poisoned.


Your mastery of life energy opens the door to the ultimate respite technique. As an action, you can touch a creature, expend 4 ki points, and force the creature to make a Constitution saving throw(a creature can willingly fail this save). Unless the save succeeds, the creature enters a state of suspended animation for a number of days equal to your monk level or until you end the effect early (no action required). During this time, the creature is paralyzed, has immunity to all damage, and any curse, disease, or poison affecting it is suspended. The creature appears dead to all outward inspection and to spells used to determine the creature’s status.

17 days of immunity to damage for an allied creature.

[8wGremlin]

Barbarian currently has me wondering how unarmed attacks work with making off-hand attacks as a bonus action. with claws that's 4 attacks (maybe).

I looked into this and the claws don't have the light property, thus you can't two-weapon fight.
the dual weld also has some weird wording that I think also precludes this.

[MaxWilson]

Found a way to break the Mercy Monk

17 days of immunity to damage for an allied creature.

That's hilarious. : )

[micahaphone]

Oh my god, using your capstone to make an ally into a walking talking unkillable corpse. Definitely not RAI, but very fun.

And the concept of a bestial barbarian needing the Dual Wielder feat to make 4 attacks with their claws is a good balance consideration, but is also very funny to me. Just how ridiculously big are those claws, that you need to be able to dual wield longswords before you're able to use TWF with them?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Ah, I see the Totemist is a Barbarian subclass now. That jump check tho, that jump check is amazing (it laughs at remarkable athlete, though pretty much everything does).

Neat.

Monk can now bludgeon things to life. Final Fantasy white mage is now possible. Edit: Side note, Hand of Mercy is dope as a nope rope.

Aura of the Sentinel for the Watcher Paladin + Rogue Swashbuckler (mc bard) = Crazy high initiative for the Rogue. 1d20 + dex + rogue cha + Paladin cha + 1/2 Prof = Rogue goes first.

The thing I like most about the warlock is that it's opening up new mechanics (roll versus your own DC). Also, I hope the patron gets some sleep and your teleported enemy doesn't see anything the patron wouldn't want them to see.

[Kane0]

Beastbarian has been a request for years, very glad it's finally got something!

Beast Form: Bite and Tail are good, Claws are OP. Imagine being hasted or comparing to the different forms of BA attack
Beast Soul: Everything here looks good except for maybe the jump. Discarding that this subclass appears to be doing multiple totems at once this looks like a DM ruling that has been codified and is such a 'mermaid'
Infectious Fury: Looks good to me, this subclass is really leaning on Con
Call the Hunt: When you enter your rage (so no extra action cost) share out adv on saves vs fear, your reckless attack and gain THP for the number of people who gain this. This seems a bit busy for one feature but sounds mechanically solid at first glance. Will take a while to see the full effects of this feature but i'm willing to let it play out.

Beastbarian is both strong and versatile, it's very solid but potentially power creep where it isn't necessary (Barbarians already excel at combat, where they could use some more fleshing out is in Interaction and Exploration). I would scale back just a few aspects during feedback/polish.


Mercy Monk is a neat concept, i'm interested.
Implements of Mercy: A skill and two tools, lovely
Hands of Healing: Okay so this is good in a vacuum but bad with context. There are two factors that I can see: The name conflicts with Paladin Lay on Hands/Aasimaar Healing Hands and the ability itself clashes with the last thing that was just released for monks, the Quickened Healing Ki Feature from the Class Feature Variant UA. It's a good concept and seems popular, but please do it without muddying the waters.
Hands of Harm: This is the third level 3 feature and could probably be merged with Hands of Healing really. Conceptually and mechanically I like it, it's always usable but only situationally strong.
Noxious Aura: Nice, but it's odd in that winds don't interact with it in any way (like dispersing it) and it appears to deal a minimum 0 damage instead of the usual minimum 1 from a feature that keys of a stat. Functions fine though, and combined with monk arrow catching makes them a menace to archers.
Healing Technique: Simple but effective, reminds me of the Paladin's Lay on Hands improvement.
Hand of Mercy: Just as strong as Quivering Palm but far more out of combat use. On one hand, I do like seeing noncombat capability, on the other hand this is an outright superior option apart from a Ki cost 1 point higher. Willing to see how it plays out.

Overall i'm pretty happy with the Mercy Monk, just needs cleaning up really.


Watchman Pally
Extraplanar protectors, wasn't this a concept done by the Horizon Walker Ranger? I'm not really objecting, I just hope it doesn't do the same job but way better (because people compare the two half casters plenty already).

Oath Spells: Strong selection with some mediocre ones thrown in. Moonbeam, Banishment, Hold Monster double up on other oath spells which I suppose is OK, but then you have Counterspell thrown on top of that.
Channel Watcher's Will: Strong and useful ability to hand out to your party. This subclass is beginning to look just a little stronger than average but i'll hold my tongue for now.
Channel Abjure Extraplanar: Pretty standard but affects four creature types so you can expect to it come up. One glaring omission is Celestials, which I would like to see put in there.
Aura of the Sentinel: Cha to Initiative, this is looking like a Warlord-lite subclass for the Paladin when coupled with Watcher's Will. Not that i'm complaining, but that route is going to be really strong on the class that already features auras, healing and top-notch martial power.
Vigilant Rebuke: I like this, but this has a more anti-mage feel than anti-outsider. It's useful though, and very likely to come up with both your aura and channel.
Mortal Bulwark: Bonus action to use which automatically makes it a stronger option compared to other pally capstones. Truesight is good considering you don't have access to the spell but the other two bullet points again have me wary. You already have banishment as a spell and a smite, and again celestials are notably missing from that list of 'not mortals'

Overall, this is definitely on the stronger side of pally subclasses but undecided as yet if it's power creep (again on a class that doesn't need it). Hmm.


Genie Warlock is another cool concept that has been requested for a while and is good to see.
Spell List: A good mix, short rest Polymorph is going to be a favourite
Collector's Vessel: Shouldn't this be a pact boon? The pact boon is where you get actual items like tomes, talismans, familiars and weapons. The actual benefits also really match up well with the Talisman pact boon from the recent Class Feature Variant UA
Elemental Resistance: Solid and useful without overshadowing the Fiend damage resistance. I approve
Protective Wish: Looks like a Warlock version of Benign Transposition. I like it, but perhaps could be spammed
Genie's Entertainment: Like Banishment with a recurring save and a re-use if it stays the whole time. Solid
Collector's Call: This breaks a cardinal rule for Warlocks: You aren't forced to interact with your patron. This is also mechanically borked by using your own Cha check vs your own Cha spell DC AND by spending gold to regain uses of a feature. The actual effects of the feature aren't even worth all that, it's your choice of an average heal, an average debuff against one creature or the casting of a 5th level noncombat spell.

Overall, it's... fine but I think mechanically most of this would be much better suited to adding to the Talisman pact boon and invocations from the Class Feature Variant UA. Collector's Call is egregious and needs a good second and third look, and if you take those out you're left with ripoffs/reskins of features found elsewhere. This is the only one I would consider not worth pursuing in its current form out of this bunch.

I'm also seeing an overall trend towards more options, with multiple features offering multiple things. This isn't a bad thing on it's own but if it becomes too common you have a significant risk of both bloat and power creep.

[Contrast]

The thing I like most about the warlock is that it's opening up new mechanics (roll versus your own DC). Also, I hope the patron gets some sleep and your teleported enemy doesn't see anything the patron wouldn't want them to see.

Its pretty clunky though. Why would levelling up make the ability less likely to work unless you had persuasion proficiency (in which case it stays exactly the same). Or why would having a Rod of the Pact Keeper (or other similar items) make it less likely to work? I wouldn't expect that mechanic to see print.

[Aett_Thorn]

Overall, I really like this UA. Obviously some issues with the Mercy Monk and the paralyzed condition removal creating problems, but over pretty good.

Two questions I have:

1) How does Collector’s Vessel work with spells like Booming Blade, or Thunder Step? Do you make an attack from your space, but it goes off from their space? Does Thunder Step let you move, but the damage goes off from your friend’s space? If you cast Mirror Image on yourself, but had it go off in their space, would they be surrounded by images of you?

2) Do the Path of the Beast forms count as unarmed strikes? Meaning if you had a Barb/Monk, would these count for Martial Arts giving bonus action attacks?


Also, I don’t care if it’s perfect or a mess, I’m just really happy for a Genie-lock!

[Nidgit]

Short Rest healing makes me a bit nervous. A Mercy Monk can just dump whatever leftover ki they have into healing right before a short rest; suppose a monk has 4 ki left over at Level 10 after a combat and the party takes a short rest- that's ~35 points of totally free healing. It puts more pressure on the DM to properly tax their players during the adventuring day.

It's mitigated a bit by limitations during combat, but that's essentially the same problem Healing Spirit has.

[jaappleton]

After review there’s one issue I have with this whole article

And it’s one point with the Monk. And I ADORE this Monk, it’s my favorite Monk subclass by far. Like, I want to play this NOW.

Really, it’s an issue I have with any subclass that does this...

WOTC, if you’re going to give darn near half the entries in the Monster Manual and other books resistance or outright immunity to POISON, maybe don’t make subclasses that deal Poison damage regularly? Poison Dragon Sorc, Spores Druid, and this Monk’s miasma ability. Come on, WOTC, stop making player options around Poison.

Stop that.

[Dork_Forge]

Short Rest healing makes me a bit nervous. A Mercy Monk can just dump whatever leftover ki they have into healing right before a short rest; suppose a monk has 4 ki left over at Level 10 after a combat and the party takes a short rest- that's ~35 points of totally free healing. It puts more pressure on the DM to properly tax their players during the adventuring day.

It's mitigated a bit by limitations during combat, but that's essentially the same problem Healing Spirit has.

All this really does is extend the life of hit die, outside of longer running excursions away from a city etc. (where you might actually run out of HD eventually) does that really matter? It's not like Healing Spirit where people can heal a ridiculous amount between combats without resting and if it prevents leftover KI being wasted isn't that a good thing?

[Kane0]

After review there’s one issue I have with this whole article

And it’s one point with the Monk. And I ADORE this Monk, it’s my favorite Monk subclass by far. Like, I want to play this NOW.

Really, it’s an issue I have with any subclass that does this...

WOTC, if you’re going to give darn near half the entries in the Monster Manual and other books resistance or outright immunity to POISON, maybe don’t make subclasses that deal Poison damage regularly? Poison Dragon Sorc, Spores Druid, and this Monk’s miasma ability. Come on, WOTC, stop making player options around Poison.

Stop that.

Next thing you know: Magic item that allows you to Poison the unpoisonable.

[Amechra]

Short Rest healing makes me a bit nervous. A Mercy Monk can just dump whatever leftover ki they have into healing right before a short rest; suppose a monk has 4 ki left over at Level 10 after a combat and the party takes a short rest- that's ~35 points of totally free healing. It puts more pressure on the DM to properly tax their players during the adventuring day.

It's mitigated a bit by limitations during combat, but that's essentially the same problem Healing Spirit has.

I mean, they experimented with letting Monks heal with their leftover ki in the Class Features UA - I think the utility here will heavily depend on how your party schedules their short rests.

That being said...

Beast Barbarian is super cool and will probably be nerfed at some point - Form of the Beast is very strong. Bestial Soul's super jump amuses me greatly (a 20th level Barbarian can jump 34ft straight up if you can budget the movement). Infectious Fury is kinda absurd, and Call the Hunt is a solid party buff. One thing I do notice is that the natural weapons are not unarmed strikes, which feels kinda weird.

Mercy Monk... I'd grab Shillelagh and focus on Wisdom for these guys. By the time they hit 6th level, it won't be unrealistic for them to be dealing 5d6 + 3xWis damage against any poor fool who tries to stay within melee with them, without factoring in your bonus action. I have a feeling that this is another one of their "we want to push the Monk's damage" things, but A) they get the bonus damage before Monks start to fall behind and B) I wish they'd included more healing powers on the healer Monk. Hands of Healing is actually pretty decent healing (4-7 HP at 3rd level, it refreshes on a Short rest, and you can slip it in as part of a Flurry so you don't need to sacrifice your general "punch things" plan to use it), but the rest of the subclass wants you burning your Ki on beating people to death.

Watcher Paladin is dull. The only feature that really makes me go "ooh, cool!" is Mortal Bulwark's free banish effect. That's... not a whole lot.

Genie Warlock also isn't doing anything for me - I wish it worked better with the Talisman Pact Boon, and I'm not a big fan of how it goes from a buff/support subclass to a "and now I make wishes/banish people" at higher levels. Genie's Entertainment and Collector's Call seem like they could be generally accessible Invocations, honestly. It just feels messy (most of the UA Warlocks have felt messy, honestly).

[Chaosmancer]

I like the Path of the Beast.

The tail is a big die with reach

Teeth gives you healing

Claws gives you more attacks


Infectious fury is great. Either get them to hit someone else or deal 2d12 damage. I think though it does need a clarification. You can only activate it X number of times, does that mean you can only force the save that number, or that you can only inflict one of the conditions? Because if you force a save and fail, it does nothing, and we generally don't like wasting abilities if we can avoid it. Call of the Hunt is not really that OP in terms of the temp hp... and maybe not even in terms of granting Reckless Attack. It is only useful for people who use strength to attack, which is a small subset of characters to be honest.



Way of Mercy is... odd. I think it is definitely an evolution of the Way of Tranquility monk, with healing and being able to use healing while flurrying. The thing is, while I like the aesthetic of the manipulation of life and death, the abilities aren't very evenly distributed for that. The level 11 ability is pretty minor, and with the aura giving disadvantage, poison which procs the Hands of Harm, and the poison damage, they lean heavily into their death side.

I like the paladin a lot. Definitely feels like an Anti-Abomination paladin with the massive boosting to mental saves, and that capstone. I also like the rebuke if you resist a spell, combined with the aura and the advantage, that could be almost guaranteed.


The Warlock is the only one I feel is way too rough. My guess is that it is actually going to end up combining the with Pact of the Talisman. I'm not sure why binding someone grants you a bonus to perception, and I can see the spell distance being a big thing... if you know to cast the spell, but there is an odd catch here.

See, the target has to be willing, and they get nothing out of this deal, until 6th level. That is a long time, and lasting only an hour kind of makes it a weird binding too. Additionally, that big benefit of casting a spell, I think this is meant to be a Pact of the Chain warlock match, but it doesn't actually do anything to make that better.


"Protective Wish" is decent, but again, it is only rarely going to be useful. It is great if you swap with the barbarian, put you are going to be pulling them out of position and forcing them to take damage instead of you. I feel like that might lead to bad situations, especially since, again, other than the level 6 ability the bound creature doesn't get anything.


Genie's Entertainment is... interesting. I like the idea of sending them to the court, and the genie granting you the ability back if they are there for a full minute. Because they were entertained. But, the ability specifically says the Genie doesn't do anything and that is boring from a story perspective


And the last ability is just bad. Other warlock caps are also bad, but that isn't an excuse. A DC check to even activate, it might do nothing, and even if it does, it isn't very impactful. 8d6 is about 27 points of healing, which is similar to a 4th level cure wounds, and you are using a capstone that required a check. Disadvantage is nice for saves, but one turn and you can't benefit from it? Or a 5th level spell that is a ritual anyways.

I like the idea of the sacrifice though. That is interesting, and the idea of your position as a warlock being to go out and find creatures and items to add to the menagerie is really cool, but I think this one needs some more spit and polish.

[jaappleton]

Genie's Entertainment is... interesting. I like the idea of sending them to the court, and the genie granting you the ability back if they are there for a full minute. Because they were entertained. But, the ability specifically says the Genie doesn't do anything and that is boring from a story perspective

It’s Banishment but it can’t be Counterspelled.

Which.... I mean, cool that it can’t be Counterspelled. But that’s..... that’s all it is.

Not exciting. But it works.

.....look not every feature across every subclass is an A+. >_>

[NOMster]

I should get writing credit on this lol some of the barbarian stuff is uncanny how close it is to the weretouched master path (and longtooth elite feat) that i made on DDB.

[Sparky McDibben]

I really love this UA; I'm a big fan of Beast Barbarian and Mercy Monk. I'm less interested in the Watcher Paladin and the Noble Genie, so I'll focus on them.

The big draw for the paladin is Dat Spell List. Moonbeam, chromatic orb (which is essentially a 1st-level smite at range), OMG COUNTERSPELL, and hold monster are all really good. The Channel Divinities are kind of meh. For 1 minute, all your party members become super-gnomes! Or, you can turn elementals, fey, fiends, or aberrations. Eh. I'd be more interested in an AoE debuff-counter instead of Abjure the Extraplanar ("As a bonus action, you can use your Channel Divinity to remove one of the following conditions from a number of creatures equal to your Charisma modifier within 30 feet: blinded, charmed, deafened, paralyzed, or poisoned.") The aura is situationally good (pairs well with Assassins or Gloom Stalkers, or Assassin-Gloom Stalkers), but it's not universally good like Ancients or Divinity. Vigilant Rebuke is really good, but I have a weird question: does this work if someone is scrying on you? It doesn't say you need to see the caster, but frequently the DM won't tell you if you or someone else makes the save. Might be worth a conversation during Session 0. Mortal Bulwark is solid. It's good thematically, and a solid first run at playtest material, but the mechanics could use a bit of inspiration.

Noble Genie is a good call by the WotC team, but I have some issues with the implementation. Fiendlocks feel like they are getting powers from an evil aligned creature. This...doesn't feel like a noble genie is really invested in you. Collector's Vessel feels like it should have been a Pact Boon, not a Patron benefit. It even has some of the same language. I don't know - this seems a bit janky. I'd suggest, if this is how they want to do this, maybe do for Chainlocks what Hexblade did for Bladelocks. Plug the familiar more strongly into the Patron, not creating a whole separate mechanic. Also, and I know I'm going to come off as crazy here, but shouldn't Protective Wish involve...a wish? Not a wish as the spell, but like a wish of some kind? Genie's Entertainment feels like an iron flask, but weird. Like your marid genie lord is just sitting there watching the kraken you dropped off in their court and yelling, "Dance for me, puppet! DANCE!!!" Collector's Call is pretty cool, though, and a really innovative mechanic - you're wrestling with yourself, and you always have the same chance to fail.

[Misterwhisper]

Barbarian:

Bite: good attack that keeps hands free and heals, not thp for your con.

So a better version of about half of what battlerager gets for level 3 and 6 all in one...

Claws: just a straight up extra attack, not a bonus action attack, a straight up extra attack.

So the barbarian at level 5 has the attacks of a level 11 fighter

Tail: 1d12 and reach, and requires no hands so keep one for grappling and one for a shield.

Another powerful option. Hell, carry a bow normally and tail whip as needed.

Level 6, fluff travel.

Level 10: con based wis save or have them hit a friend or an extra 2d12.

That is pretty crazy against someone with one big attack.
Since it is based on a save no crit I assume.

Level 17: so essentially 4 to 5 times a day, you can give your people a great ability and gain 20 or 25 hp.

Just use this and the maw and probably never die.

I love the concept, and with some toning down this could be great, but that is way too much self healing and thp, kind of steals all the good stuff from battlemaster.


Monk:

Way of mercy, but a good bit is about poisons and nothing all that merciful.

Level 3: proficiencies are always nice.

Healing hands: 1 ki, to heal a MA die + wis heal.
If you flurry, one attack and a heal.

Not greatly cost effective but before a rest could be nice. Or if things have totally fallen apart.

Touch of harm:

So the just ok ability of kensei but some levels earlier and with a possible damage booster.
The more they add to make kensei pointless is ok with me.

Level 6

1k for fight long poison aura that give ranged protection.

That is some kind of nice if flavorfully kind of odd.


Level 11:

A status removal on healing hand, that makes it much more handy than just healing. Ok, cool.

Level 17:

4 ki, con save or your done.
Offense or defense this has lots of possibilities.

If you thought stunning fist made your dm grumpy, this is crazy.
This is a campaign killer.


Paladin:

Oath spells are nice, good selections here and there

Channel divinity:

Watchers will is good defense that covers a fight.

The other ability is meh.


Level 7:

Aura of great initiative. I don’t like bunching up but going first is a huge bonus, especially for a plate wearing paladin.

Level 15:

Someone makes a save and pop the caster for some good damage.

That is great, like almost too good.
No range for caster issues, no limit on uses.
With your aura to saves this could be amazing.

Level 20:

Amazing against other planets, not that special against normal foes.

Overall I like it.


Warlock:

Bonus spells, unlike most classes you don’t actually get these spells you can just have the option for choosing them, polymorph is a sure pick the rest are maybes.

Collector’s vessel:

I had to read this like 3 times, I kept thinking I missed something.

Bonus to perception and you can start a spell from a teammate...

That’s it?

Hexblade gets a curse, two proficiencies, using a main stat for attack and damage and a small heal.

This gets a good perception check and a ribbon.


Level 6:

Resistance to certain elements:

Yeah, fiend already gets that.

Level 10:

Target switching for you and your leashed target.

Not bad, assuming your target is healthier or tougher than you. Or you are protecting someone.

Kind of odd this does not require you to see the attack.

Level 10 also:

Banish sort of.
Great for getting rid of someone.

Also a little to similar to the fiend ability for my liking.

Level 14:

Collectors call:

So I make a persuasion check against myself?
Who the hell designed this ability.
Why would my save dc have anything to do with my persuasion check, much less make it harder.

Wait let me put down my rod of the pact keeper to make it easier to talk my patron into helping...

Also because they are both charisma based, what your charisma is makes no difference.

The effects are ok but not amazing. The mechanics are dndwiki levels of stupid.



Overall:

Barbarian: good very very good
Monk: odd combo and badly named
Paladin: campaign dependent, could be godly, could be just ok
Warlock: not worth the time to type it.

[Daphne]

The only change I'd do to the Barbarian subclass is add half damage on a successful save to the 10th level feature. Otherwise, I'd say it's good for print.

Pretty good flavor and mechanics imo.

[Evaar]

Infectious Fury from Path of the Beast has some nice synergy with Sentinel.

[Sparky McDibben]

Infectious Fury from Path of the Beast has some nice synergy with Sentinel.

It would, but I don't think you can use your reaction on your turn, and if you're hitting them when not on your turn, you've already used your reaction.

[Evaar]

It would, but I don't think you can use your reaction on your turn, and if you're hitting them when not on your turn, you've already used your reaction.

"Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else's."

[Nagog]

I really enjoy the look of the Barbarian subclass, far more than the rest (which is odd considering I greatly enjoy 2 of the 3 other classes). I've had an idea for a barbarian for a long time of a Tiefling child of a Balor who wants to reject their heritage, but it manifests when they rage. This subclass is perfect for exactly that.

The Genie Patron is interesting thematically, but I feel it falls flat mechanically. I love the flavor, perhaps I'm jaded though, as when I saw the "Linked creature" at the top of the page I immediately assumed a constant summoned ally (like BM ranger but finally updated) and was disappointed when I found it's a lackluster support option.

I agree with your opinions on the Paladin. The theme is strong, some of the mechanics are good, but overall falls flat.

The Monk subclass I feel is pretty similar. Great flavor, cool abilities, I'm confused as to why it's on the monk. Plague Doctor is great aesthetic, the abilities between help and harm are great, but I don't feel like Monk is a good chassis for it. I'd say this kind of thing would work better on Bard myself, I feel it's on monk due to the persistent buzz for Tranquility Monks.

[MaxWilson]

The big draw for the paladin is Dat Spell List... COUNTERSPELL, and hold monster are all really good.

Counterspell is overrated, especially on a half-caster who can't afford to burn spell slots willy-nilly, and especially for a Paladin who already grants good saves to those around him. Faced with a choice between burning a third-level spell slot and asking an ally e.g. to roll 5+ on a d20 to avoid a Hold Person IV from a Hobgoblin Devastator, why not save the third level slot and wait and see what happens? They'll probably make the save, and if they don't I can Lesser Restoration them cheaply... and if I Counterspell it might not even work anyway (gets Counterspelled or just doesn't beat the DC 14 Charisma check) and I'll have blown my highest-level spell slot for nothing.

And I could be facing multiple spellcasters anyway. 3 Devastators and 5 Iron Shadows isn't even a Deadly fight for an 11th level party, and I can't Counterspell them all.

Don't get me wrong, I want Counterspell on a primary spellcaster if nothing else to prevent someone else from Counterspelling my high-level spells like Forcecage and Shapechange. But a Paladin's best abilities can't be Counterspelled anyway.

TL;DR Counterspell is expensive, unreliable, and niche.

[rbstr]

Good themes on all of these subclasses! Mechanically it's pretty decent with a couple things standing out:

The Barb's natural weapon options are too strong. Particularly since you can flex between the options.

The Monk's healing action is probably fine. Consider a Celestial Warlock torching "unused" slots on cure wounds before a short rest. Yeah it's "free" but it's also a resource that's likely to get used up before you get to that point.
And, as far as the poison goes - If poisoning wasn't resisted so often the 3xMartialArtsDie damage would be too powerful.

The Paladin is cool in concept, but I was really hoping for more in the channel divinity and aura. The CD should be less situational IMO something you might use in any particular combat - the "Turn extraplanar" covers your situationally big option. Maybe it should be the initiative buff, perhaps cha+ initiative to the party as a reaction when initiative is rolled.
Which gets to the initiative aura. That's a fun, cool buff, but I don't think it's really strong enough compared to the other stuff the auras do over a whole fight (Spell Damage resistance, being one)

Then, finally, the Warlock's features seem like a bunch of ribbons to me, they really need to do more. Level 1 you get...a bonus to Perception checks? Even compared to the pre-cpowercreep PHB warlocks that's not much. Two PC potentially getting resistances is potentially nice...but having to choose per-day is a severe limitation. And it's the whole level's bonus. Celestial gets resistance and a damage bonus.

[Azuresun]

Genie's Entertainment is perfect for some defensive uses, as an ally could be instructed to stay there until sent back. Shame we can't use Collector's Call into an ally in the court to remove his Stun and create a false time stop.

I'm definitely houseruling that when the target returns, they're wearing a gaudy party hat and holding a cocktail or a sausage on a stick. :smallbiggrin:

[MrStabby]

So I wasn't super excited by this but it has grown on me a bit.

Barbarian:

Very cool for a barbarian. Not enough to tempt me to play one, but still pretty good nevertheless. The fact that the speacial attacks at level 3 are weapon attacks is nice. Claws seems pretty brutal - 3 attacks per action at level 5+, rage bonus to damage + whatever else gets cast on you/them. I cant see why something like elemental weapon cant be added here, for example. If you have the stats for a dip for hex or hunter's mark then those extra attacks will go a lot further. Tail gives you a d12 weapon that doesn't stop you holding a shield - not exactly game breaking but maybe some fun.

Bestial soul I really like. It gives barbarians a chance to have something cool out of combat and having more nice features not tied to rage is really nice.

Infectious fury is a nice damage buff and adds a little more tactical complexity to the class - I suspect it is likely to be useful on crit-fishing builds more than anything else though.

Call the hunt is a bit meh through to actually being pretty good, depending on party composition. How many of your allies are actually going to be making strength attacks?



Monk:

OK, this is cool. I think the flavour could do with being tightened up a bit. It sounds really rich and cool but just a bit all over the place. Would I want to play it? Probably not - it just seems like so many of its features are too situational to be anything other than frustrating.

Implements of mercy is ok, if unexciting. There are no skills we couldn't have got before anyway.

Hands of healing - well level 3 is usually a way to spend Ki and this is no exception. Not enough healing to be exciting but it adds to the versatility of the class. Being able to throw down attacks at the same time is pretty awesome though - I wonder if it might be restrictive due to the timing issues on flurry of blows. No hitting and stunning an enemy then running over to your fallen comrade to heal them. Everything has to be within reach at the same time.

Hands of harm is much, much more interesting. This could vary between garbage or fantastic depending on the campaign. If you are fighting a lot of undead, constructs or basically most things that are not humanoid then good luck poisoning them. On the other hand if application of the poisoned condition is easy enough to come by in your campaign then this is a nice ability to turn the monk into more of a damage dealer.

Noxious aura is weird. A level 6 ability that uses Ki but also and aura and also an effect with a decent duration. If it were something other than poisoned it would be pretty awesome. As it is, it is one of those campaign dependent things. I would feel totally bummed if I were to pick up this class and we ended up in Barovia.


Healing technique is actually pretty cool. It lets you go to being more of a generalist able to heal a lot of conditions as well. The downside is either there is redundancy here or you have played through 10 levels without your party having access to it.

Hand of mercy is a very cool ribbon ability. It is pretty underwhelming for a level 18 ability and your subclass capstone. You have stunning strike; do you really need another con save vs sitting still doing nothing? Sure, when a creature is isolated and unable to do anything it is usually a sitting duck even if it cant be damaged. Basically this spell is like banishment for the monk only with a worse save and 10 levels late.


Paladin
Oath of the watchers is nice; it is cool and kind of fits the paladin quite nicely. This is probably the only option here that I wouldn't mind rolling up.

The oath spells are pretty much all spells I like and spells that seem thematic for the class.

The channel divinity options are good. The devotion one we have seen before but the buffing saves one is a nice addition. It feels like there are different options for different circumstances and both will see use.

Aura of the sentinel seems one of the weaker auras. An observation rather than a complaint. It is still pretty cool and flavourful.

Vigilant rebuke is funny - it is not something you can count on and is a bit passive but hey, still pretty cool. Interestingly there is no range limit - dream, geas, whatever... you can reach across planes and continents.

Mortal bulwark - yeah, this is what you expect a capstone to looklike. Powerful, thematic and generally awesome.


Genie warlock?

I love the idea. Not impressed by the implementations. Bland in some cases, a bit over the top in others.

The spells are uninteresting and lacking in flavour.

Collector's vessel/tether is interesting,but it doesnt really seem like there is much support. If there were more melee spell attacks that scaled well with spell level then sure - then I would think it was a bit of a giggle.

Elemental resistance - yeah, pretty good but pretty boring.

Protective wish is pretty cool. I may need to think more to see if there are good uses for it. Teleportation unlimited times per day seems like it should be abusable. At 10th level though it isn't dipable for another class. I guess you could go raging barbarian bladelock if you wanted, but it seems a bit contrived - still, with the elemental resistances and a way to get extra mileage from Armour of Agathys it could be a pretty fun build, if high level.

Genie's Entertainment is good. Almost at will banishment if you face enemies with low charisma, and pretty good just for the lack of concentration.

Collector's call - I just can't get excited about that. Too little, too late, too slow.

[Misterwhisper]

Yeah path of beasts lizard folk.

That is going to be pretty sweet.

Natural armor, natural weapons, gear made of the bones and skins of fallen food er... fallen enemies.

I like all of it except the last ability, not too impressed with that one.

[Amechra]

I'm popping back in because I've noticed that a few people seem to have skimmed over part of what makes Hands of Harm so strong.

You get the tripled bonus if your target is Poisoned OR Incapacitated. So you get the boosted Necrotic damage for smacking a Stunned creature. The subclass is not based around dealing Poison damage or handing out the Poisoned condition - it has a feature that does so, but you could literally never use Noxious Aura and still be fine.

That isn't to say that Noxious Aura isn't a scary feature - Poisoned is a scary condition for anyone who isn't immune to it, and the Aura both A) weakens ranged attacks against you and B) punishes creatures for trying to stay in your face.

[Sigreid]

It finds itself in a unique place where I have no interest in any of the options myself, but wouldn't have a problem with it if a player wanted to use one in my campaign.

[Degwerks]

By 3rd level a Path of the Beast Longtooth Shifter could have 3 attacks and 4 by level 5. Bonus action attack from Longtooth Shifter's bite. Crazy.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Its pretty clunky though. Why would levelling up make the ability less likely to work unless you had persuasion proficiency (in which case it stays exactly the same). Or why would having a Rod of the Pact Keeper (or other similar items) make it less likely to work? I wouldn't expect that mechanic to see print.

As you have more time with a company you're expected to do the same job, but better. So while it's the same task, you need to do it faster or more efficiently. The Warlock's DC raises as it gets higher level because the Patron needs to make sure the Warlock is worth helping.

[Luccan]

As you have more time with a company you're expected to do the same job, but better. So while it's the same task, you need to do it faster or more efficiently. The Warlock's DC raises as it gets higher level because the Patron needs to make sure the Warlock is worth helping.

There are arguably real world "logic" reasons for it to work that way, but it runs counter to everything else in the game. Even the worst, most demanding deities are more likely to directly aid a high level cleric through Divine Intervention, not less.

[NOMster]

By 3rd level a Path of the Beast Longtooth Shifter could have 3 attacks and 4 by level 5. Bonus action attack from Longtooth Shifter's bite. Crazy.

also, according to a tweet today, if a race has a natural ability already granted, this path just makes it more dangerous, so the longtooth's bite benefits from becoming a d8 and magical.

[Jerrykhor]

Good UA overall, but am i the only one thinking its weird for a Paladin whose tennets are based on vigilance to not get any bonus to Perception, Insight or something to prevent Surprise? No Zone of Truth either? The Watcher paladin mechanics just seem to be severely lacking compared to the fluff. An aura of alertness that doesn't really help you be alert. It just helps you react faster to danger.

It also seems like a 'No subclass' subclass in certain situations. You know, situations where the monsters don't use abilities with mental saves, or isn't a fey/fiend/elemental/aberration before you are level 7. I can think of many encounter like this.

Their oath spells are decent though.

[Chaosmancer]

Good UA overall, but am i the only one thinking its weird for a Paladin whose tennets are based on vigilance to not get any bonus to Perception, Insight or something to prevent Surprise? No Zone of Truth either? The Watcher paladin mechanics just seem to be severely lacking compared to the fluff. An aura of alertness that doesn't really help you be alert. It just helps you react faster to danger.

It also seems like a 'No subclass' subclass in certain situations. You know, situations where the monsters don't use abilities with mental saves, or isn't a fey/fiend/elemental/aberration before you are level 7. I can think of many encounter like this.

Their oath spells are decent though.

Well, to be fair, per RAW, going first is just as good at preventing an ambush as spotting the enemy coming. And, leading a strike force to ambush the enemy (who is likely gathered around a central location like a portal) is highly effective when you can nearly guarantee the entire party going first. But yeah, some nod to perception would have been thematically appropriate

[Hytheter]

By 3rd level a Path of the Beast Longtooth Shifter could have 3 attacks and 4 by level 5. Bonus action attack from Longtooth Shifter's bite. Crazy.

...On turn 3. You need to spend a bonus action to rage and another to shift, so you don't have your bonus action free to attack until a fair way into the fight.

[Makorel]

Surprised to see people saying that Beast Barbarian is too powerful. I think it's fine. The claws are the only option that's going to do respectable damage for a Barbarian and that's not even as much as a standard PAM Halberd Barb can do. PAM Zealot is still the best damage Barb while having some of the best defenses as well and while yes PAM costs a feat the Beast Barb doesn't have anywhere to grow because the nature of unarmed strikes means it can't take advantage of feats like PAM or GWM or even Dual Wielding (I think).

If your game has magic weapons then Beast Barbarian is going to fall especially behind, unless they also use one of those magic weapons and only have respectable unarmed striking capability as a backup. That sounds like a ribbon to me (for those kind of games).

[Mimersbrønd]

also, according to a tweet today, if a race has a natural ability already granted, this path just makes it more dangerous, so the longtooth's bite benefits from becoming a d8 and magical.


Would you mind linking the source? I could only find a Jeremy Crawford tweet about adding ability modifier's to the natural weapons given, but nothing about changing racial abilities to match the subclass features.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

There are arguably real world "logic" reasons for it to work that way, but it runs counter to everything else in the game. Even the worst, most demanding deities are more likely to directly aid a high level cleric through Divine Intervention, not less.

Doesn't matter if it doesn't work like anything else, why doesn't bless just give you advantage instead of a d4? Fiddly numbers were a choice the design team decided to get rid of.

An explination was asked for and I gave one.

I for one want new features that are distinct and not just that other feature but slightly different.

News flash. Clerics and Warlocks are different classes with different fluff. While they could have had the same chassis, and should, the relationship between a deity and cleric is vastly different than the relatio ship between patron and Warlock. Complaining that the warlock doesn't work like the Cleric is like complaining that the fighter doesn't have a spell book.


*****

Edit


I think the Monk subclass shpuld be called something besides "Mercy".

Way of the Plague Priest? Idk... Just not feeling the name.

I want to run one of these ASAP tho.

[Jerrykhor]

Surprised to see people saying that Beast Barbarian is too powerful. I think it's fine. The claws are the only option that's going to do respectable damage for a Barbarian and that's not even as much as a standard PAM Halberd Barb can do. PAM Zealot is still the best damage Barb while having some of the best defenses as well and while yes PAM costs a feat the Beast Barb doesn't have anywhere to grow because the nature of unarmed strikes means it can't take advantage of feats like PAM or GWM or even Dual Wielding (I think).

If your game has magic weapons then Beast Barbarian is going to fall especially behind, unless they also use one of those magic weapons and only have respectable unarmed striking capability as a backup. That sounds like a ribbon to me (for those kind of games).

Built-in weapons are always kind of weak actually. If you start at level 1, sure it will seem cool, a little powerful maybe. But once everyone around you start getting cool magic weapons, and then get more powerful magic weapons, you'll start to realise how bad it is. They also don't work with most other things, like the Barbarian claws don't work with any Fighting Style or Feat.

[HappyDaze]

My favorite thing in this whole UA is that a Way of the Mercy Monk can punch others (and themselves) healthy.

I see this as slapping the unconscious until they wake up feeling better or the "bang on their chest until they revive (because I have no idea how CPR really works)" approach that is seen in TV and films.

[HappyDaze]

a standard PAM Halberd Barb can do. .

Sad that this is considered "standard" as pretty much no barbarian archetypes are routinely envisioned as halberd users. Greataxe or other two-handed weapon, yes. Polearms like the halberd, not so much. However, I accept that this is merely to min-max the damage through PAM and the fact that so few other weapon types have comparable benefits from (official) feats. I still find it sad.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Sad that this is considered "standard" as pretty much no barbarian archetypes are routinely envisioned as halberd users. Greataxe or other two-handed weapon, yes. Polearms like the halberd, not so much. However, I accept that this is merely to min-max the damage through PAM and the fact that so few other weapon types have comparable benefits from (official) feats. I still find it sad.

It's only the standard with people on message boards where the only thing that matters to a character is damage and if you aren't doing peak damage then you're a garbage player playing a garbage character.

Like they forget it's a roleplaying game and you make characters and not just attack/damage rolls.

Edit: One thing I love about AL is that it shows you how many people don't optimize for one specific area of D&D. Combat is there, and WotC has a fetish for it, but there's two more legs of the game (exploration and social) that are part of a character.

[T.G. Oskar]

Quite surprised by the new UA. More subclasses? And another one for Paladin? Why, let's check out!

Barbarian - Path of the Beast: I have a friend who wants to play a lycanthrope. I suggested going Shifter for the feel, but he actually wanted to play a lycanthrope. I personally didn't allow him, because I felt like it was a massive power boost. This should make him happy. Form of the Beast gives three pretty distinct options for Natural Weapons: a bite that allows you to heal some damage (or at least help mitigate it; good synergy with damage resistance), claws that allow an extra attack (three attacks at level 5? Nice! Damage may be low, but you have both Strength and the bonus Rage damage; also, it activates as soon as you make your first attack, so you could replace the second attack from Extra Attack with a Shove or Grapple and then end up with a third attack), or a tail that grants reach (and deals greataxe-level damage...ouch!) Sure, it might not work with Fighting Styles or the feats, but it still works great on their own, and are far more useful when you can't (or don't) multiclass or get feats. Bestial Soul is nice, since it gives a natural progression to your natural attacks and also gives a fair bonus, which synergizes very well with Fast Movement. The jump version is actually the better one, since it allows you to make a check to leap really high; do recall that Athletics applies to Strength checks, which means that you can do those leaps with advantage on a Rage. Infectious Fury is super cool, though difficult to trigger. For one, requires you to Rage, then to make a successful attack, then grants the target a Wisdom save to negate the effect. At least it's not Constitution, which is often the most common save. If it does trigger, you end up getting a sweet damage boost. Limited uses makes it fair, but that trigger condition... Finally, Call the Hunt, albeit late, is an insanely good buffing action. It works wonders on crit-fishers (Champion Fighters, Oath of Conquest Paladins, Hexblade Warlocks), but really helps everyone. The THP isn't exactly the greatest, but it's a fun addition.

Verdict: Arguably one of the better Barbarian subclasses out there. The last ability seems out of place, but it's well explained and actually useful. Very flexible. Thematically and mechanically synergizes with the Shifter.

Monk - Way of Mercy: Plague doctors? On 5e? Funny enough, I don't recall the Way of Tranquility Monk, but everyone says it's similar. I do like what I see, though - essentially, it's a Monk that focuses on healing others and causing harm. Reminds me of the Nosomatic Chirurgeon, with its ability to both heal and harm. Implements of Medicine mostly adds proficiencies, but it does allow you to build up both poisons and potions for long-term healing (not like the Artificer, but it helps). Hands of Healing and Hands of Harm should be part of a singular feature, but I can understand why they kept them separate. The first feature provides some decent healing for 1 Ki (starts as much as a Healing Word, ends up healing as much as a Cure Wounds), though it hurts that it requires an action (though, with the Alternate Class Features UA, that means you can spend 2 Ki to heal an ally AND yourself, IIRC). Interestingly enough, you can choose to attack AND heal if you use Flurry of Blows, which is fun. The second feature doesn't seem that great unless you poison or incapacitate - and, as most people have said, the Stunned condition incapacitates the target. (So does Paralyzed and Petrified, though the latter halves all damage you deal), so it works wonders with your own Stunning Strike, or a friendly caster's Hold Person/Monster. I don't see why people say they won't use Noxious Aura; sure, resistance to poison is extremely common, and immunity to the Poisoned condition almost doubly so, but it still works great against those creatures that don't, and even if the enemy is immune to poison, you still get the ability to impose disadvantage on ranged attacks (which should include ranged spell attacks; try to see if that Warlock hits Eldritch Blast on you now!) Healing Technique is a nice upgrade to Hands of Healing, doubly so if you use it as part of a Flurry of Blows. Finally, Hand of Mercy is...bizarre. Definitely I feel it'll be modified (or removed, maybe?), since the idea is that you should be incapacitated, not paralyzed (after all, some of the main traits of the Paralyzed condition become pointless when you become immune to damage). It feels like a ribbon ability with some clever utility, since it can work to keep someone alive (hence, why a creature can willingly fail its save), or capture someone alive. I don't see much combat utility, but I can see its roleplaying utility.

Verdict: I'd love to play a Monk like this, curiously enough. It's a fun take on the Monk, tapping on the Long Death concept but also on the concept of balance between Life and Death. With the Healer feat, I could see this Monk being an actual party healer while still counting on providing some utility through Stunning Strike.

Paladin - Oath of the Watcher: Yay, a new Paladin Oath! I was a bit disappointed with the Oath of Heroism - it didn't feel any amazing to me, instead feeling pretty dull. I notice a strange combination of Oath Spells: Alarm (fits the theme), Chromatic Orb (an attack spell? Huh...), Augury (a divination? Alright...), Moonbeam (basically a DoT with the ability to really screw up shapechangers; being on the level where Paladin spells are somewhat "meh", it's a solid grab), Counterspell (great against magicians, but it competes with great 3rd level spells AND depends on whether the Paladin lacks sufficient uses of its reaction), Nondetection (alright, who made this spell list? It makes little sense!), Aura of Purity (again, an odd choice, though it IS a spell that provides solid defenses against status effects...of which the enemies the Paladin will face as part of its Oath might or might not use), Banishment (perfect fit), Hold Monster (solid spell) and Hallow. Apparently, it's one good spell and one "WTF!?" spell, which makes me think that those spells may be filler for spells in a new document. Honest - why not Arcane Eye as your 4th level spell instead of Aura of Purity, or Detect Magic as your 1st level spell...you know, spells that improve your observation skills? Regarding the options for Channel Divinity: Watcher's Will is a pretty decent buff for allies, allowing you to resist those pesky spells (Synaptic Static, Hold Person/Monster, Dominate Person/Monster, Phantasmal Killer) and monster attacks (like the Mind Flayer's Mind Blast, for example) in combination with your Aura, while Abjure the Extraplanar is your typical Turn power, but also affecting Aberrations. Aura of the Sentinel is...wow, unfathomable. For one, it's absurdly good - you, and all your allies in aura range, add your Charisma to initiative, meaning you have several chances to go first. For the other...it doesn't aid your Perception or Insight, which would be just as good and applicable always, and fits the theme. It's both insanely good and sadly incomplete. I surely expect a buff, though it may make it a bit OP. Love Vigilant Rebuke; Paladins don't make a lot of use of their reactions (unless they choose the Protection Fighting Style, are allowed the Interception Fighting Style from the ACF UA, or focus on Opportunity Attacks), so having a feature that deals decent damage, has a very easy trigger (you don't need to be the one that does the save; as long as an ally does, you can trigger it), and no save required. Sure, you don't cancel the spell's effect, but you can still break concentration on a spell nonetheless (how about ending pesky spells such as Storm Sphere, or Sleet Storm?), which is cool if you tag it with Mage Slayer. Finally. YMMV with Mortal Bulwark; compared to some of the others (say, the Conquest Paladin's insanely good capstone, or the Devotion Paladin's capstone which is relatively similar), it feels a bit on the weaker end - Truesight is great but not truly impressive (and you want it out of combat), and the Banishment effect applies only once, AND there's the issue of whether a banished creature grants XP or not. Advantage is easy to get, which undermines the one actually good benefit of the capstone. Thing is, it feels too similar to Holy Nimbus (the Devotion capstone) or Avenging Angel (the Vengeance capstone), but those are actually super good; in particular, Avenging Angel (has two options, but flight is generally more useful than truesight, and the Aura of Menace triggers almost every time).

Verdict: Has some nice things, but it feels like a work in progress. Oath spells need some love, and the features need to tie a bit more to the theme. If the idea is to be a watcher against extraplanar evil, might as well make it a bit more vigilant, no?

Warlock - Noble Genie Patron: ...Wait, a genie-flavored subclass? Wow, and here I thought they wouldn't do a thing with the Sha'ir... The Expanded Spell List has some oddball spells: Sleep loses steam quickly but because you can auto-scale it, it remains a bit more relevant than with other classes; Polymorph is always a great choice, but the rest of the spells just don't scale. I do like Enlarge/Reduce as a buffing spell, but...Create Food and Water? (Should have been a ritual...) I wouldn't ignore Bigby's Hand, but sadly, you already cast it at its maximum potential (you can't scale it); nevertheless, it's a great control spell IMO. Collector's Vessel is super-strange; you bind a creature, but you can't use it for anything else, instead you getting some bonuses like better Perception and the ability to cast your spells from a different point. That last one rewards creativity, but I don't see much use to it personally. Elemental Resistance is basically a nerfed Fiendish Resilience, except you can buff your tethered creature with the same bonus (well, at least NOW you grant something to the tethered creature...) Protective Wish is a cool ability, but personally I find it more useful when you're not the one using it to protect your tethered creature, instead using it to protect yourself. Genie's Entertainment looks fun; what I like is that, if the enemy fails all of its saving throws, you can actually recover the move. It's Banishment, essentially, but you can actually recharge it in battle. Finally, the most controversial feature of this UA: Collector's Call. It suffers from the "Truenamer" issue; you require making a skill check against a DC that scales with you to gain an effect, oftentimes scaling faster than the skill you're using. (Though, to be fair, it's easier to boost skill checks than to boost your spell save DC, and since both use Charisma and add your proficiency bonus, you're essentially rolling a d20 and hoping you get 8 or higher.) Personally, I like the healing - it heals quite a bit, but more importantly, it also removes status effects, including Paralyzed. Disadvantage on saving throws is huge, though it lasts for too little (if it lasted more, it'd be insanely good). Finally, the Legend Lore benefit is undoubtedly pointless - you spend more money recovering the effect than actually spending the material components for it, no reduction in casting time (you still apparently need the 10 minutes), and the effect could be used by another caster that actually has access to the spell...or even a scroll, if you can find it. You know what Collector's Call should resemble? Limited Wish, which allowed you to replicate a spell of up to 7th level, which would mean you could replicate Heal, or Blade Barrier, or a number of similarly good spells; it could also be used for some minor benefits as well. It's a missed chance, though I wouldn't mind using it for an emergency heal (better than nothing, right?)

Verdict: Definitely needs a lot of work. It could have been the counterpart to the Sorcerer's Draconic origin, focusing on the Noble Dao, Djinni, Efreet and Marid (perhaps one of the sultans and caliphs of the City of Brass, or from the Elemental Plane of Air). The theme's there, but the mechanics are all over the place, and don't help solidify the theme at all. The subclass I like the least.

Overall Verdict: I like the Barbarian and Monk subclasses (a lot; like, "motivate me to play the class" a lot), but would love to see more work on the Paladin and Warlock subclasses.

[Makorel]

Sad that this is considered "standard" as pretty much no barbarian archetypes are routinely envisioned as halberd users. Greataxe or other two-handed weapon, yes. Polearms like the halberd, not so much. However, I accept that this is merely to min-max the damage through PAM and the fact that so few other weapon types have comparable benefits from (official) feats. I still find it sad.


It's only the standard with people on message boards where the only thing that matters to a character is damage and if you aren't doing peak damage then you're a garbage player playing a garbage character.

Like they forget it's a roleplaying game and you make characters and not just attack/damage rolls.

Edit: One thing I love about AL is that it shows you how many people don't optimize for one specific area of D&D. Combat is there, and WotC has a fetish for it, but there's two more legs of the game (exploration and social) that are part of a character.

I mean it's not like I'm telling you what you should or shouldn't play. I just disagree that the Beast Path is overpowered.

[Appleheart]

Overall Verdict: I like the Barbarian and Monk subclasses (a lot; like, "motivate me to play the class" a lot), but would love to see more work on the Paladin and Warlock subclasses.

I think this is a great general recap for me as well. The monk and barbarian subclasses are both things I'd be happy to play today, and both are for classes I generally otherwise am not a huge fan of, so that is as big of an endorsement as I can give.

The paladin subclass has great theme and flavor, and much of the mechanics are strong and fitting, but it does need just a bit of polish.

The warlock is definitely the weakest of the bunch. The individual abilities are not bad, but it feels like a bit of a disjointed mess. Genie's Entertainment I really do like tho. Its essentially just Banishment once per long rest (or more times, if you are lucky), but gaining a strong spell once per long rest for a Warlock specifically feels like a general thing that is usually a good thing. The Lurker warlock, which is my favorite patron to date, has several abilities that essentially equate to one spell per long rest or such.

All in all though, none of the subclasses are BAD, none seem overpowered or mechanically clearly bad, etc. This is an overall very good UA, and hopefully a great sign of things to come in part 2, 3, and beyond. :)

[NOMster]

Surprised to see people saying that Beast Barbarian is too powerful. I think it's fine. The claws are the only option that's going to do respectable damage for a Barbarian and that's not even as much as a standard PAM Halberd Barb can do. PAM Zealot is still the best damage Barb while having some of the best defenses as well and while yes PAM costs a feat the Beast Barb doesn't have anywhere to grow because the nature of unarmed strikes means it can't take advantage of feats like PAM or GWM or even Dual Wielding (I think).

If your game has magic weapons then Beast Barbarian is going to fall especially behind, unless they also use one of those magic weapons and only have respectable unarmed striking capability as a backup. That sounds like a ribbon to me (for those kind of games).

These aren't unarmed strikes. They are natural melee weapons.
I agree though, it's not too powerful compared to other options.

[NOMster]

Would you mind linking the source? I could only find a Jeremy Crawford tweet about adding ability modifier's to the natural weapons given, but nothing about changing racial abilities to match the subclass features.

https://twitter.com/30SecondGoat/status/1217168305301016576?s=19

[DarknessEternal]

"When you take the Attack action on your turn and make an attack with your claws, you can make one additional attack using your claws as part of the same action."

They should probably limit that to once per Attack action and not just double your total number of attacks.

[Justin Sane]

They really should limit that to once per turn, because if not...

1) take attack action.
2) use claw for said attack.
3) 1 and 2 trigger "you can make one additional attack using your claws as part of the same action".
4) make 2nd attack with claw.
5) 1 and 4 trigger "you can make one additional attack using your claws as part of the same action".
6) make 3rd attack with claw.
7) repeat ad infinitum.

[DarknessEternal]

They really should limit that to once per turn, because if not...

1) take attack action.
2) use claw for said attack.
3) 1 and 2 trigger "you can make one additional attack using your claws as part of the same action".
4) make 2nd attack with claw.
5) 1 and 4 trigger "you can make one additional attack using your claws as part of the same action".
6) make 3rd attack with claw.
7) repeat ad infinitum.

I was thinking the triggered action wouldn’t trigger again. But you are correct. It’s infinite attacks, not double.

[Justin Sane]

Also, the claws/bite/tail are simple or martial melee weapons, right? Because if not, then the Barbarian won't be proficient in them.
But if they are, then the Class Feature Variants UA means Monks can declare them Monk weapons, which... does become interesting.

[NOMster]

it says "When you take the Attack action on your turn and make an attack with your claws, you can make one additional attack using your claws as part of the same action".

You only get one attack action, so you can only make one additional attack as part of the attack action. the 2nd use of the word attack is not the action, the attack action is. so it says you can take one additional attack using your claws as part of your action. since you only get one action per turn, by default, you only get one extra attack.

[Justin Sane]

it says "When you take the Attack action on your turn and make an attack with your claws, you can make one additional attack using your claws as part of the same action".

You only get one attack action, so you can only make one additional attack as part of the attack action. the 2nd use of the word attack is not the action, the attack action is. so it says you can take one additional attack using your claws as part of your action. since you only get one action per turn, by default, you only get one extra attack.What I'm arguing is that, as written, it's a valid interpretation that the "additional attack" it grants qualifies for itself - all of them are part of the same action, that's not what's in dispute.

Edit: For clarity, consider if it's true that after your 2nd attack you a) have taken the attack action; and b) have made an attack with your claws.

Edit 2: Also, I freely admit that is an unintended wording - the RAI seems obvious - and any player who tried that at my table would get laughed at for days and days.

[NOMster]

For those thinking the extra attack is too much. it's not. it is on par with other options. it does a decent amount less damage than a zealot with a greataxe and no way to increase it through feats or magical weapons. you wouldn't be able to use a two handed weapon, so even if you use claw,battleaxe,claw, you're still decently under a zealot on average unless he's holding handaxes.

[Harrumphreys]

Path of the Beast seems an interesting choice for Small Barbarians, who would otherwise be limited by their weapon size.

Halfling Barbarian growing a 1d12 tail and smashing enemies...

[Amechra]

Surprised to see people saying that Beast Barbarian is too powerful. I think it's fine. The claws are the only option that's going to do respectable damage for a Barbarian and that's not even as much as a standard PAM Halberd Barb can do. PAM Zealot is still the best damage Barb while having some of the best defenses as well and while yes PAM costs a feat the Beast Barb doesn't have anywhere to grow because the nature of unarmed strikes means it can't take advantage of feats like PAM or GWM or even Dual Wielding (I think).

If your game has magic weapons then Beast Barbarian is going to fall especially behind, unless they also use one of those magic weapons and only have respectable unarmed striking capability as a backup. That sounds like a ribbon to me (for those kind of games).

This is the kind of post that illustrates my issues with PAM. A class feature that gives you a choice between the following (which don't fill up your hands, so they can be combined with other weapons):

1) A d6 weapon that gives you an extra attack.
2) A d8 weapon that heals you for the damage dealt 1/turn.
3) A d12 weapon with reach.

should not "sound like a ribbon".

[NOMster]

This is the kind of post that illustrates my issues with PAM. A class feature that gives you a choice between the following (which don't fill up your hands, so they can be combined with other weapons):

1) A d6 weapon that gives you an extra attack.
2) A d8 weapon that heals you for the damage dealt 1/turn.
3) A d12 weapon with reach.

should not "sound like a ribbon".

it doesn't sound like a ribbon at all to anyone who wants to play a lycanthrope/animal type character. it sounds awesome.

[Nagog]

I really enjoy the look of the Barbarian subclass, far more than the rest (which is odd considering I greatly enjoy 2 of the 3 other classes). I've had an idea for a barbarian for a long time of a Tiefling child of a Balor who wants to reject their heritage, but it manifests when they rage. This subclass is perfect for exactly that.

The Genie Patron is interesting thematically, but I feel it falls flat mechanically. I love the flavor, perhaps I'm jaded though, as when I saw the "Linked creature" at the top of the page I immediately assumed a constant summoned ally (like BM ranger but finally updated) and was disappointed when I found it's a lackluster support option.

I agree with your opinions on the Paladin. The theme is strong, some of the mechanics are good, but overall falls flat.

The Monk subclass I feel is pretty similar. Great flavor, cool abilities, I'm confused as to why it's on the monk. Plague Doctor is great aesthetic, the abilities between help and harm are great, but I don't feel like Monk is a good chassis for it. I'd say this kind of thing would work better on Bard myself, I feel it's on monk due to the persistent buzz for Tranquility Monks.

[Nagog]

This is the kind of post that illustrates my issues with PAM. A class feature that gives you a choice between the following (which don't fill up your hands, so they can be combined with other weapons):

1) A d6 weapon that gives you an extra attack.
2) A d8 weapon that heals you for the damage dealt 1/turn.
3) A d12 weapon with reach.

should not "sound like a ribbon".

Agreed. PAM is an unbalancing feat, and therefore any comparison on powerscalings shouldn't include it one way or another. Otherwise the only way a Martial Class can excel is "Add X to weapon attacks", which severely limits the potential of subclasses to diversify themselves.

[Justin Sane]

it doesn't sound like a ribbon at all to anyone who wants to play a lycanthrope/animal type character. it sounds awesome.It does sound awesome, but... Unless you have natural weapons from somewhere else (your race, for example), you're still going to need normal weapons as well, as they're only available while in Rage.
That, for me, is the greatest turn-off for this Primal Path. If I want to play an animalistic character, I want to be able to do it all the time.

[bendking]

This is the kind of post that illustrates my issues with PAM. A class feature that gives you a choice between the following (which don't fill up your hands, so they can be combined with other weapons):

1) A d6 weapon that gives you an extra attack.
2) A d8 weapon that heals you for the damage dealt 1/turn.
3) A d12 weapon with reach.

should not "sound like a ribbon".

I did some calculations, and at level 8 the Path of the Beast using Claws still does less damage than a regular Zealot Greatsword GWM user (without PAM), with a 39.58 DPR using Reckless Attack VS 42.10 DPR using Reckless Attack.

I still agree PAM is a problematic feature, but this goes to show it isn't the only problem. Barbarian simply HAS to take GWM if he wants to have competitive damage. GWM just gains so much from Reckless Attack that it's practically mandatory. PAM just piles even more on top of this. Way of the Beast not being able to use GWM just hamstrings his DPR. The only thing you could say is going for him is in a game without feats he is the best damage dealer.

If anyone wants to double check my numbers, I used this calculator:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14WlZE_UKwn3Vhv4i8ewVOc-f2-A7tMW_VRum_p3YNHQ/edit?usp=drive_web&ouid=116004031142298573395

I think it would behoove anyone discussing balance and damage in particular to check himself with this.

EDIT: I made a mistake in the DPR. Still the same difference though.

[Nagog]

Just had an interesting question form: If the Miasma is within a 5 foot radius and does not discriminate between allies and enemies, having that ability active will effectively shut down all of you're healing ability, unless you're a Bugbear and use your Healing Hands I mean Lay on Hands I mean Hands of Healing during your attack action. On the other hand, it may combine well with a reach/Booming Blade build to punish those who get too close to maximum effect, if only using BB didn't waste pretty much all of a monk's action economy potential.

[NOMster]

It does sound awesome, but... Unless you have natural weapons from somewhere else (your race, for example), you're still going to need normal weapons as well, as they're only available while in Rage.
That, for me, is the greatest turn-off for this Primal Path. If I want to play an animalistic character, I want to be able to do it all the time.

to do it all the time you'd need an animal race, regardless of class. play a tabaxi or something and it makes sense then that when he rages, his claws get bigger and do more damage.

[Amechra]

I did some calculations, and at level 8 the Path of the Beast using Claws still does less damage than a regular Zealot Greatsword GWM user (without PAM), with a 34.86 DPR using Reckless Attack VS 37.79 DPR using Reckless Attack.

I still agree PAM is a problematic feature, but this goes to show it isn't the only problem. Barbarian simply HAS to take GWM if he wants to have competitive damage. GWM just gains so much from Reckless Attack that it's practically mandatory. PAM just piles even more on top of this. Way of the Beast not being able to use GWM just hamstrings his DPR. The only thing you could say is going for him is in a game without feats he is the best damage dealer.

If anyone wants to double check my numbers, I used this calculator:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14WlZE_UKwn3Vhv4i8ewVOc-f2-A7tMW_VRum_p3YNHQ/edit?usp=drive_web&ouid=116004031142298573395

I think it would behoove anyone discussing balance and damage in particular to check himself with this.

People are getting waylaid by the claws, I think. Take a look at the bite.

Ignore the damage numbers for once, and look at the bite that heals you for free every single round.

(Also, what were you using as your target AC? I'm trying to reverse-engineer your numbers. Are you assuming magic items etc?)

[MrStabby]

For those thinking the extra attack is too much. it's not. it is on par with other options. it does a decent amount less damage than a zealot with a greataxe and no way to increase it through feats or magical weapons. you wouldn't be able to use a two handed weapon, so even if you use claw,battleaxe,claw, you're still decently under a zealot on average unless he's holding handaxes.

So a zealot gets more of a boost from magic weapons, the claws get more of a boost from magic spells.

So something like PAM will do both... but uses a bonus action. Possibly if you can use the UA alternative class features ranger then you can have a concentration free hunter's mark to abuse... but usual MAD problems. Spells like magic weapon seem like they will still work nicely with the claws -and they can be cast by others.

[Dork_Forge]

I did some calculations, and at level 8 the Path of the Beast using Claws still does less damage than a regular Zealot Greatsword GWM user (without PAM), with a 34.86 DPR using Reckless Attack VS 37.79 DPR using Reckless Attack.

I still agree PAM is a problematic feature, but this goes to show it isn't the only problem. Barbarian simply HAS to take GWM if he wants to have competitive damage. GWM just gains so much from Reckless Attack that it's practically mandatory. PAM just piles even more on top of this. Way of the Beast not being able to use GWM just hamstrings his DPR. The only thing you could say is going for him is in a game without feats he is the best damage dealer.

If anyone wants to double check my numbers, I used this calculator:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14WlZE_UKwn3Vhv4i8ewVOc-f2-A7tMW_VRum_p3YNHQ/edit?usp=drive_web&ouid=116004031142298573395

I think it would behoove anyone discussing balance and damage in particular to check himself with this.

Being 3 damage behind the guy that burned a feat specifically for damage is not hamstringing yourself.

[bendking]

People are getting waylaid by the claws, I think. Take a look at the bite.

Ignore the damage numbers for once, and look at the bite that heals you for free every single round.

(Also, what were you using as your target AC? I'm trying to reverse-engineer your numbers. Are you assuming magic items etc?)

I was using 15 AC. Not assuming magic weapons.


So a zealot gets more of a boost from magic weapons, the claws get more of a boost from magic spells.

So something like PAM will do both... but uses a bonus action. Possibly if you can use the UA alternative class features ranger then you can have a concentration free hunter's mark to abuse... but usual MAD problems. Spells like magic weapon seem like they will still work nicely with the claws -and they can be cast by others.

What do you mean Claws get more of a boost from magic spells? Flat additions to damage like Elemental Weapon?


Being 3 damage behind the guy that burned a feat specifically for damage is not hamstringing yourself.

I was giving the Path of the Beast an additional +2 STR instead of GWM. Also, I was specifically saying the DPR is hamstrung. Which it is.

[Dork_Forge]

I was giving the Path of the Beast an additional +2 STR instead of GWM. Also, I was specifically saying the DPR is hamstrung. Which it is.

My disagreement is that 3 damage per round is enough to be called hamstrung, I don't think that it is and as soon as you come across an enemy with an AC high enough GWM won't see use and that DPR will fall right back down.

[NOMster]

The claws are behind a zealot even without gwm or magic weapons. By a lot.

Using target ac 18, max str, level 20, using reckless:
Zealot with Greataxe is averaging 52
The claws are getting 45

[Chaosmancer]

It does sound awesome, but... Unless you have natural weapons from somewhere else (your race, for example), you're still going to need normal weapons as well, as they're only available while in Rage.
That, for me, is the greatest turn-off for this Primal Path. If I want to play an animalistic character, I want to be able to do it all the time.

A fair point, however, I have rarely seen a barbarian enter a combat without rage, especially by mid-levels. So it depends on practice at the table.

But, still a fair point on the theme.


People are getting waylaid by the claws, I think. Take a look at the bite.

Ignore the damage numbers for once, and look at the bite that heals you for free every single round.

(Also, what were you using as your target AC? I'm trying to reverse-engineer your numbers. Are you assuming magic items etc?)

I agree. I don't think it is OP by any stretch, but as someone who is playing an Artillerist and seeing how useful a constant stream of temp hp is, a barbarian with a constant stream of or hitpoints healed a turn is really really nice.

And the tail giving you a 1d12 reach weapon while still letting you hold a shield? Also really incredibly.

[bendking]

The claws are behind a zealot even without gwm or magic weapons. By a lot.

Using target ac 18, max str, level 20, using reckless:
Zealot with Greataxe is averaging 66
The claws are getting 45

That doesn't seem right to me. At level 8, without GWM, they are 3 points past the Zealot, in my calculations.

[NOMster]

Fixed. I had the wrong total. But it's still higher

[NOMster]

That doesn't seem right to me. At level 8, without GWM, they are 3 points past the Zealot, in my calculations.

At 8 with both at 5 str, Target ac 18, reckless
3xclaws=27
2xgreataxe+zealot damage=31

[NOMster]

Admitted I'm doing it on mobile so I could be missing something

[Sigreid]

Path of the Beast seems an interesting choice for Small Barbarians, who would otherwise be limited by their weapon size.

Halfling Barbarian growing a 1d12 tail and smashing enemies...

Rat totem barbarian? 😜

[MrStabby]

What do you mean Claws get more of a boost from magic spells? Flat additions to damage like Elemental Weapon?


Yeah, magic weapon, elemental weapon, holy weapon, UA ranger hunters mark... I presume that holding a shield in one hand doesn't qualify you for dueling fighting style. Bestow curse could be nasty. A barbarian dip on a high level paladin to use with smites and improved divine smites would inflict respectable pain (albeit for fewer rages per day)

[stoutstien]

TWF and the Claw could lead to a staggering number of attacks for a barbarian. All you need is throw/let go of one of the weapons to open up your hand.
3(1d6+stat+2)+1d6+2 at lv 5 isn't bad for no real investment.

[paladinn]

I'm pretty underwhelmed by this UA as a whole. Some of the articles have been really, really good; this one seems like, "Wow, we haven't put a new UA out in a while. Let's throw the crowd a bone."

If this is the best they can come up with for a UA, that means 5e has been extended about as far as they can. Get ready for 6e!

[HappyDaze]

it says "When you take the Attack action on your turn and make an attack with your claws, you can make one additional attack using your claws as part of the same action".

You only get one attack action, so you can only make one additional attack as part of the attack action. the 2nd use of the word attack is not the action, the attack action is. so it says you can take one additional attack using your claws as part of your action. since you only get one action per turn, by default, you only get one extra attack.

A few levels of Fighter for Action Surge and it gets stronger.

[Sparky McDibben]

A few levels of Fighter for Action Surge and it gets stronger.

So does everything else. It's still only once per short rest, and it's 2 * (1d6 + stat + rage bonus). Not game breaking, IMO.

[Kane0]

How about Haste?

[MrStabby]

I'm pretty underwhelmed by this UA as a whole. Some of the articles have been really, really good; this one seems like, "Wow, we haven't put a new UA out in a while. Let's throw the crowd a bone."

If this is the best they can come up with for a UA, that means 5e has been extended about as far as they can. Get ready for 6e!

Huh. I thought it was actually representing an increase in standards.

I was underwhelmed by the latest psionics rehash. I was underwhelmed by aberrant minds, there were some cool things in a few of the recent UA but I thought that this one actually contained the foundations of three ideas I would actually be excited to see refined (admittedly with some serious rework in the case of the warlock).

I think back further to the time of lore wizards, theurges, and over the top favoured souls and think that the quality of UA has gone up... or at least fewer egregious mistakes.

[Kane0]

I'm pretty underwhelmed by this UA as a whole. Some of the articles have been really, really good; this one seems like, "Wow, we haven't put a new UA out in a while. Let's throw the crowd a bone."

If this is the best they can come up with for a UA, that means 5e has been extended about as far as they can. Get ready for 6e!

So what are your favourite UAs?

[Chaosmancer]

How about Haste?

Huh.

For the RAW crowd that is actually interesting.

As you may know, Extra Attack is not a new attack action, just more attacks per attack action. Haste is a separate attack action, and while it is limited to "one weapon attack only" it could be seen that an effect of the claw attack is getting a second claw attack, so it might be more specific and override the Haste restriction.

I wouldn't, I just add +1 attack for easier times, but it could potentially work out.

[Justin Sane]

to do it all the time you'd need an animal race, regardless of class. play a tabaxi or something and it makes sense then that when he rages, his claws get bigger and do more damage.I... forgot about Tabaxi? Wow, I guess I did.

[Kane0]

Indeed, that Claw option is a poor design choice. Just throwing in a free extra attack has all sorts of down-the-stream problems. The die size doesn't matter as much as the damage riders and other ways of stacking more attacks with it. Just the other two options at level 3 are good enough really.

[Aett_Thorn]

I... forgot about Tabaxi? Wow, I guess I did.

Also, you can play as a Snapping Tortle.

[Daphne]

Rogues can already sneak attack twice by readying an action while under the haste spell, so it doesn't make the Barbarian best target for the spell.

And if you attack with your claws instead of your big two-handed weapon you are dealing 1d6 less damage, so you basically get extra damage equal to your STR + Rage bonus.

[Misterwhisper]

Agreed. PAM is an unbalancing feat, and therefore any comparison on powerscalings shouldn't include it one way or another. Otherwise the only way a Martial Class can excel is "Add X to weapon attacks", which severely limits the potential of subclasses to diversify themselves.

It is the golden rule of martials:

If you don’t have a bonus action attack you will get left behind by anyone who does.

One great sword for 2d6 + str
Or
One glaive for 1d10 + str and 1D4 + str.

One longbow for 1d8 + dex
Or
One hand crossbow for 1d6 + dex, and another 1d6 + dex

You could make an argument for a longbow due to range but there is no argument for melee. Now with spears, not even if you wanted to use a shield.

Because they will never, ever, change a printed book to make something weaker it leaves 2 options:

1. Make a new class or subclass ability that keeps up with PAM/CE thus making it crazy high damage compared to others

Or

2. Balance it ignoring feats, and any martial class/subclass ability just gets ignored and use PAM/CE anyway.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

Like most people, I noticed that the Beastmaster's natural attacks fall short of a normal Barbarian's normal weapon attacks. This is true even if you assume, as I do, that at level 5 a Barbarian can make use an attack action to make one claw attack and one tail attack, and then get a free claw attack. And probably even if you adjust some of the examples above to account for Beastie taking STR rather than Feats.

Not only does a Beastmaster have no Feat support, but he is even more inferior when he isn't raging.

I suppose a Beastmaster's attacks are worthwhile in a Featless game. So if you're in one of those....

Anyway,

Ken

[NOMster]

I... forgot about Tabaxi? Wow, I guess I did.

Yep. And feline agility allows you to move twice your speed. Which means if you've got the jump going, you won't be limited by movement. You'd be able to jump your str score+1d20+your str mod and still move. It also means that while you've got the upside down climbing thing, you can move twice your speed on the ceiling.

[Scarytincan]

I like the barb. May not be the highest tier damage in average games but it's strong in no feats games, no or low magic items games, and my favorite, gives options for people that want to play a character like that (a niche that isn't that rare tbh).

I love the flavor of the monk and think it was pretty well done all told. I'm not as convinced that the hand of mercy is quite as amazing overall as many posit, certainly is no quivering palm. Especially when monks can already stun and it makes the bbeg immune to damage. But I still really like it and think it was well done. Can still royally muck up the bad guys day with a little creativity, and has put of combat and protective uses that QP doesn't.

Paladin I really wanna love, the flavor is exactly the kind of pally I'd love to play, but the mechanics don't just do it for me, seem pretty bland. Also seems odd that it can't exorcise outsiders like ancients can, not the biggest deal but...

Like the idea of the warlock, but needs work.

[paladinn]

So what are your favourite UAs?

Good question.. I think the recent one with alternate class features was sweet (especially the ranger's favored foe - but You already know that!)

A lot of the UA's that fed into XgtE were good. I kind of liked the Theurgy UA. And the early versions of the Scout that used a fighter basis (tho I dislike the superiority dice mechanic)

I just didn't find this latest crop very compelling. But to each his/her own!

[Azuresun]

I still agree PAM is a problematic feature, but this goes to show it isn't the only problem. Barbarian simply HAS to take GWM if he wants to have competitive damage.

Competing with who?

[diplomancer]

I like the barbarian, though it's odd that at the end of every combat he had his bite on he will try to bite whatever critter is around to get some extra hit points. More unbalanced if the DM does not kill NPCs and monsters once they get to 0 hit points.

I feel the claw option is specially good. It doesn't even say that your hand has to be unnocupied for it. So you could attack twice with your claws, once with a polearm (with GWM) and once with the bonus action from PAM. Get 3 ranger levels and you have 5 attacks by level 8, 7 if you are hasted, all of them adding rage damage.

Also, I don't think white room analysis where you are always recklessly attacking is the best way to evaluate Barbarian damage. There are situations where recklessly attacking is suicide, specially when your opponents are capable of inflicting damage that is mostly not bludgeoning, piercing or slashing.

[Kane0]

I like the barbarian, though it's odd that at the end of every combat he had his bite on he will try to bite whatever critter is around to get some extra hit points. More unbalanced if the DM does not kill NPCs and monsters once they get to 0 hit points.

I feel the claw option is specially good. It doesn't even say that your hand has to be unnocupied for it. So you could attack twice with your claws, once with a polearm (with GWM) and once with the bonus action from PAM. Get 3 ranger levels and you have 5 attacks by level 8, 7 if you are hasted, all of them adding rage damage.

PAM is out, since the feat specifies attacking only with the listed weapons. GWM bonus action attack is possible though.

[Aett_Thorn]

PAM is out, since the feat specifies attacking only with the listed weapons. GWM bonus action attack is possible though.

But past level 5, you have Extra Attack, so you could attack once with your claws, and once with the polearm. This would trigger both extra attacks. So you can still get 4 attacks per round no problem.

[diplomancer]

PAM is out, since the feat specifies attacking only with the listed weapons. GWM bonus action attack is possible though.

True, I never realized the feat said "attack *only* with..." I wonder why they worded it like that.

Still, if you ARE recklessly attacking, 4 attacks with advantage gives you a reasonably good chance to either crit or kill a creature, so the GWM bonus attack will happen often.

[Aett_Thorn]

True, I never realized the feat said "attack *only* with..." I wonder why they worded it like that.

Still, if you ARE recklessly attacking, 4 attacks with advantage gives you a reasonably good chance to either crit or kill a creature, so the GWM bonus attack will happen often.

Eh, the way I’m reading the feat it looks like it is just limiting the weapon types you can use, not limiting anything else you can do on the turn as part of that action. I mean, could you use one attack to grapple, then attack with a spear, then use the PAM bonus action attack? I think most DMs would say yes to that (as cheesy as it may be). How about punching as a Monk, then hitting an enemy with a spear for the same thing (seems like a waste of a feat, but should work by RAW). So why not be able to claw and spear or claw and halberd to make this work?

[Kane0]

But past level 5, you have Extra Attack, so you could attack once with your claws, and once with the polearm. This would trigger both extra attacks. So you can still get 4 attacks per round no problem.

Unfortunately not.


POLEARM MASTER
You can keep your enemies at bay with reach weapons. You gain the following benefits:
- When you take the Attack action and attack with only a glaive, halberd, or quarterstaff, you can use a bonus action to make a melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon.


Mind you I hate the Claws in this UA, but they did make sure that particular loophole was closed.

[NOMster]

I like the barbarian, though it's odd that at the end of every combat he had his bite on he will try to bite whatever critter is around to get some extra hit points. More unbalanced if the DM does not kill NPCs and monsters once they get to 0 hit points.

I feel the claw option is specially good. It doesn't even say that your hand has to be unnocupied for it. So you could attack twice with your claws, once with a polearm (with GWM) and once with the bonus action from PAM. Get 3 ranger levels and you have 5 attacks by level 8, 7 if you are hasted, all of them adding rage damage.

Also, I don't think white room analysis where you are always recklessly attacking is the best way to evaluate Barbarian damage. There are situations where recklessly attacking is suicide, specially when your opponents are capable of inflicting damage that is mostly not bludgeoning, piercing or slashing.

the numbers still say the extra attack isn't too strong with or without reckless.

At 8th, 5 str + rage damage against AC18, avg dpr, no advantage:

a zealot 23
a beast with 3 claw attacks 19
battlerager 22
sea storm herald 19.6
frenzied berserker 25.7
2 attack barbs with PAM 21
2 attack barbs with GWM 17

the zealot and the beast both still have bonus actions available, even if the beast is using handaxes and twf, it still only bumps his number to 21.7.

[BarneyBent]

I can’t decide if I like that Hands of Harm synergises so well with Stunning Strike and Noxious Aura or if this is an issue.

I can see a Wood Elf Champion 3/ Mercy Monk 5 with Elven Accuracy going critfishing. 4 attacks on a stunned opponent has a 72% chance of scoring at least 1 critical hit. If you want to save ki, 3 attacks still has a 61% chance. Save your Hands of Harm for your critical hit and you’re rolling your monk die 8 times, 6 of which deal necrotic damage.

Yes, you have to stun them first but that’s good practice for a monk anyway.

You can also go Hexblade 1 for a more limited use of the expanded crit range - a less optimal multiclass and more limited use of the expanded crit range, but you get monk levels faster and proficiency bonus necrotic damage on top of all your hits to the chosen target.

Anyway, haven’t crunched the numbers fully, with limited ki it’s probably fine, but it just raised a pink flag.

[Kane0]

What grinds my gears about the Claws is that they're just TWF but better. No bonus action requirement, no loss of stat to damage, no fiddly weapon requirements apart from 'attack with one, attack with the other for free'. And yet if we suggest exactly the same thing for TWF nobody likes it. It's too strong, there needs to be costs. Getting any form of extra attack is a gamechanger (that's why level 5 is a big deal for every martial), and getting one that stacks with Extra Attack plus potentially other forms of Bonus Action attack even moreso. Any form of per-hit damage increase is extra effective for each additional attack you have (which don't just come from sources unavailable to the Barbarian like Hunter's Mark), and that's not including the extra crit chances.
PLUS this is ONE option of THREE you get each time you enter Rage, and they aren't no slouches either!

[diplomancer]

the numbers still say the extra attack isn't too strong with or without reckless.

At 8th, 5 str + rage damage against AC18, avg dpr, no advantage:

a zealot 23
a beast with 3 claw attacks 19
battlerager 22
sea storm herald 19.6
frenzied berserker 25.7
2 attack barbs with PAM 21
2 attack barbs with GWM 17

the zealot and the beast both still have bonus actions available, even if the beast is using handaxes and twf, it still only bumps his number to 21.7.

No reason to take 3 claw attacks, though. One of them should be with a great sword. That puts it, according to my calculations, at 21.35. Not bad for still having your bonus action, specially considering Barbarians need a bonus action to rage in the first round.

If you have GWM and either crit or kill a creature, your bonus action now has you better than all the barbarians except the zealot. But zealot gets scaling damage with barbarian level, so it's to be expected that the higher you go as a barbarian the better it will be. At level 5, the beast is better. Seems to me that zealot is better if you plan to stay as a barbarian, beast is better if you are planning on multiclassing. It's nice to have 2 choices.

[Jerrykhor]

What grinds my gears about the Claws is that they're just TWF but better. No bonus action requirement, no loss of stat to damage, no fiddly weapon requirements apart from 'attack with one, attack with the other for free'. And yet if we suggest exactly the same thing for TWF nobody likes it. It's too strong, there needs to be costs. Getting any form of extra attack is a gamechanger (that's why level 5 is a big deal for every martial), and getting one that stacks with Extra Attack plus potentially other forms of Bonus Action attack even moreso. Any form of per-hit damage increase is extra effective for each additional attack you have (which don't just come from sources unavailable to the Barbarian like Hunter's Mark), and that's not including the extra crit chances.
PLUS this is ONE option of THREE you get each time you enter Rage, and they aren't no slouches either!


Actually, it didnt specify that you need to use the other claw to attack, so a one-armed Barbarian can make the same amount of attacks as a regular two-armed Barb.

When i read it, i know why they had to do it. The default TWF rules meant that they cannot attack with both claws (without Extra Attack). This is also what TWF rules should have been - without the Bonus Action hog.

Like i said earlier, i dont think its too strong because the claws don't scale at all, at its basically a short sword damage die. Its actually really bad from a powergaming point of view, so i dont know why you think its so OP.

[Misterwhisper]

Actually, it didnt specify that you need to use the other claw to attack, so a one-armed Barbarian can make the same amount of attacks as a regular two-armed Barb.

When i read it, i know why they had to do it. The default TWF rules meant that they cannot attack with both claws (without Extra Attack). This is also what TWF rules should have been - without the Bonus Action hog.

Like i said earlier, i dont think its too strong because the claws don't scale at all, at its basically a short sword damage die. Its actually really bad from a powergaming point of view, so i dont know why you think its so OP.

Also the same problem a monk has:

Only 1 magic item that helps it and it is campaign specific.

[NOMster]

In case there was any doubt.
https://twitter.com/Dan_Dillon_1/status/1217656553597108224?s=19

[Nagog]

It is the golden rule of martials:

If you don’t have a bonus action attack you will get left behind by anyone who does.

One great sword for 2d6 + str
Or
One glaive for 1d10 + str and 1D4 + str.

One longbow for 1d8 + dex
Or
One hand crossbow for 1d6 + dex, and another 1d6 + dex

You could make an argument for a longbow due to range but there is no argument for melee. Now with spears, not even if you wanted to use a shield.

Because they will never, ever, change a printed book to make something weaker it leaves 2 options:

1. Make a new class or subclass ability that keeps up with PAM/CE thus making it crazy high damage compared to others

Or

2. Balance it ignoring feats, and any martial class/subclass ability just gets ignored and use PAM/CE anyway.

That's not true at all. PAM is what breaks it, not Bonus Action Attacks. Consider the Monk's Flurry of Blows: It's decent, but nor gamebreaking. In some circles it's considered underpowered even. Also consider Two-Weapon Fighting: Also adds a bonus action attack. And yet it's considered hot garbage in comparison to PAM. Because PAM adds your ability modifier to both attacks, and because PAM is capable of working alongside GWM on /both attacks/. Particularly with the butt of the weapon, 1d4+Str typically isn't much, so if you miss, no big loss, but if you hit, you're dealing on a low roll ~12-14 damage depending on your stat, with the max damage reaching 19. If you have maxed Str, you're dealing a minimum of 16 damage with the GWM PAM combo, and that's only using your bonus action.
So your argument about "Any bonus action attack" scaling a class above any that don't is BS and was likely made without doing any research whatsoever on the various ways you can get Bonus Action attacks.


Hi,

Like most people, I noticed that the Beastmaster's natural attacks fall short of a normal Barbarian's normal weapon attacks. This is true even if you assume, as I do, that at level 5 a Barbarian can make use an attack action to make one claw attack and one tail attack, and then get a free claw attack. And probably even if you adjust some of the examples above to account for Beastie taking STR rather than Feats.

Not only does a Beastmaster have no Feat support, but he is even more inferior when he isn't raging.

I suppose a Beastmaster's attacks are worthwhile in a Featless game. So if you're in one of those....

Anyway,

Ken

I agree with this, the Claws rapidly scale out under this thread's current understanding of their mechanic. Consider, instead, if they get 2 claw attacks per every 1 weapon attack they would normally make. Consider also that the dice is limited to a d6, which for a barbarian is rather low. Also considering the very few ways that can augment natural weapons, and it comes together as a really good class feature. It doesn't work with GWM or any feats similar to that, it could work with a grappling build, but considering the output of such builds is better utilized by other classes, it remains relatively lackluster. Yes, it can stack with the UA Hunter's Mark, however that really stretches the MADness of the build, and if you're willing to play a MAD multiclassing build, there are plenty of better ways to work that (UA Hunter Mark/Hex+ action surge Crossbow Master comes to mind as being really OP, but really MAD).
Considering the maximum attacks such a build could scale to is 6, (12 with Action Surge) at 20th level by going Barb 3 Fighter 17, I don't see an issue with it, particularly as such a build would never achieve the Bestial Soul ability that makes the claws Magical. It starts out pretty powerful at level 3, gets a boost at level 5 with Extra Attack, but from there it's limited hit dice and inability to benefit from magical enchantments and the like cause it to loose steam rapidly.

[Pex]

What grinds my gears about the Claws is that they're just TWF but better. No bonus action requirement, no loss of stat to damage, no fiddly weapon requirements apart from 'attack with one, attack with the other for free'. And yet if we suggest exactly the same thing for TWF nobody likes it. It's too strong, there needs to be costs. Getting any form of extra attack is a gamechanger (that's why level 5 is a big deal for every martial), and getting one that stacks with Extra Attack plus potentially other forms of Bonus Action attack even moreso. Any form of per-hit damage increase is extra effective for each additional attack you have (which don't just come from sources unavailable to the Barbarian like Hunter's Mark), and that's not including the extra crit chances.
PLUS this is ONE option of THREE you get each time you enter Rage, and they aren't no slouches either!


Point taken and accepted. Playing devil's advocate, not personal opinion, the justification of why this barbarian is ok but not over powered homebrew two-weapon fighting is that this is for one particular class where as overpowered homebrew two-weapon fighting anyone can do so everyone would do it. Making an attack is too important and powerful for any one to do. You need to have special training only a select few may accomplish and even then requires you pay game resources for the privilege.

[NOMster]

I think a lot of people are missing the boat on this beast paths real power.

if you have max str at level 20

a +3 Greataxe with 2 attacks is giving you about 46 damage per round. (this is using totem or AG barb. obviously zealot, storm, and berserker do more)

3 attacks with the claws here is about 45 damage per round.

The tail is clearly inferior for damage at about 38 except that it's the only d12 with reach you can get afaik. so now you've got OA's for enemies 10' away. giving you great battlefield control. Your main attacks could still be with a Greataxe/Greatsword and this is just a bonus that no other subclass has without using a weapon with smaller dice.

The bite is also inferior for damage at only around 34 dpr. But man, adding HP every turn for a barbarian is monstrous and you only have to bite once. so you can use a Greataxe, bite, get the 7 HP, next turn go straight greataxe then if you take damage, use your bite for a full turn and get 14 HP (if maxed con) then go back to the greataxe. that's pretty incredible.

Also, you can use a shield and still make 3 claw attacks or use your tail for a d12 while holding a shield.

You could use shield masters shove with any of the 3 weapons. You could have sentinel and get OAs with a d12 from 10' while holding a shield if you have the tail. There's lots of ways to use feats with these. It's just control feats instead of ZOMG DAMAGE.

[NOMster]

Also, any DM worth his salt could give you a set of gauntlets or a robe or anything else that increase natural weapons and unarmed strikes by +1-3.

[Misterwhisper]

That's not true at all. PAM is what breaks it, not Bonus Action Attacks. Consider the Monk's Flurry of Blows: It's decent, but nor gamebreaking. In some circles it's considered underpowered even. Also consider Two-Weapon Fighting: Also adds a bonus action attack. And yet it's considered hot garbage in comparison to PAM. Because PAM adds your ability modifier to both attacks, and because PAM is capable of working alongside GWM on /both attacks/. Particularly with the butt of the weapon, 1d4+Str typically isn't much, so if you miss, no big loss, but if you hit, you're dealing on a low roll ~12-14 damage depending on your stat, with the max damage reaching 19. If you have maxed Str, you're dealing a minimum of 16 damage with the GWM PAM combo, and that's only using your bonus action.
So your argument about "Any bonus action attack" scaling a class above any that don't is BS and was likely made without doing any research whatsoever on the various ways you can get Bonus Action attacks.


Actually what I said makes perfect sense, PAM/CE just makes it worse.

Hierarchy goes like this:

Top Tier:

Bonus attack with the same weapon:
PAM
CE
Double Scimitar
Revenant Blade

If what someone wants to do is to cause damage these are the prime options, one weapon, bonus stat for free, bonus attack, and also an added bonus too.
Pam - Reaction attack or shield if using a spear/quarterstaff
CBE - Ranged attacks in melee
Double Scimitar - all it takes is proficiency
Revenant Blade - better bonus attack damage and an ac bonus, and gives finesse.

Middle tier:

GWM attacks with easy advantage or precision attack:
Barbarian or battle masters make this amazing due to better accuracy.
Can also be combined with PAM if using certain weapons

Bottom Tier:
The two weapon fighting style, with or without dual wielder.
(1d6 + stat) x2 is better than 2d6 + stat, but not by a lot.
Gets better though with damage bonuses like rage, hunter's mark, curse, hex, ect.


Summary: Nobody should ever dual wield, Double Scimitar made that pointless, but bonus action attacks are amazing.


Let's look at it by class:

Barbarian:
Amazing with a big nasty weapon.
Easy advantage when they want it.
Rage damage bonus applies to any bonus attack.
Does not get a fighting style.

No reason to dual wield, but getting a BA attack from one of the others is amazing.

Fighter:
Many attacks
Early fighting styles
Battlemaster precision attack is absolute gold.
Could dual wield, but why bother when you can just use a double scimitar.
If you want to be dex based take revenant blade.

No reason to dual wield but either revenant blade, PAM, or CE are amazing.

Monk:
Very little feat support, and proficiencies limit weapon options.
Can use PAM with if they wanted, but they already get a bonus attack.
Could be useful later if you get a good magic spear or something but the stats are better.
The reason they are not talked about as much for damage is that they can not afford that many feats and their unarmed strikes have almost no support for gear.

Paladin:
Bonus action attacks + Smite = win.
Does not matter how you get them.
They do not have the option for TWF, not that they should use it.
PAM with spear and shield
Again, double scimitar.
No reason to use a hand crossbow.

Ranger:
A lot like the fighter but without the bonus from battlemaster.
Hunter's mark makes any kind of bonus attack better.
Could take any of the bonus attack options.

Rogue:
No extra attack, no fighting style.
Getting an extra attack is amazing for a rogue, a second chance to get that sneak attack off.
CE is the most common because it is ranged, gives a bonus attack, allows point blank shooting and can be used for sneak attack.
They are not proficient with other weapons to use for the other feats unless they get it from a race.
Some rogues fight with two weapon even without a stat to the other hand because a second chance at sneak attack is just that good.


The feats make getting a bonus action attack even more broken, to the point of everything else being substandard, but getting a bonus action attack will be better than not getting one if your point is damage.

[Aett_Thorn]

Does anyone else think that the Oath of the Watcher should get some way to temporarily shut down the magic resistance of fey, fiends, and aberrations? Or is it just me?

[Misterwhisper]

I think a lot of people are missing the boat on this beast paths real power.

if you have max str at level 20

a +3 Greataxe with 2 attacks is giving you about 46 damage per round. (this is using totem or AG barb. obviously zealot, storm, and berserker do more)

3 attacks with the claws here is about 45 damage per round.

The tail is clearly inferior for damage at about 38 except that it's the only d12 with reach you can get afaik. so now you've got OA's for enemies 10' away. giving you great battlefield control. Your main attacks could still be with a Greataxe/Greatsword and this is just a bonus that no other subclass has without using a weapon with smaller dice.

The bite is also inferior for damage at only around 34 dpr. But man, adding HP every turn for a barbarian is monstrous and you only have to bite once. so you can use a Greataxe, bite, get the 7 HP, next turn go straight greataxe then if you take damage, use your bite for a full turn and get 14 HP (if maxed con) then go back to the greataxe. that's pretty incredible.

Also, you can use a shield and still make 3 claw attacks or use your tail for a d12 while holding a shield.

You could use shield masters shove with any of the 3 weapons. You could have sentinel and get OAs with a d12 from 10' while holding a shield if you have the tail. There's lots of ways to use feats with these. It's just control feats instead of ZOMG DAMAGE.

A few things:

The heal from bite is once per turn. so no double up from your attack.
However if you get an OA somehow you could heal twice.

Claw only has to be one attack so you could: Greataxe + Claw + Claw

I like the idea of using the bite option on a ancestral guardian barbarian with a shield in one hand and javelins in the other.
Especially as a lizard folk.

I wonder if they will adjust things if you manifest a natural weapon you already have, like if it would increase die size by 1.

I would love a lizard folk who bites normally but when he rages his teeth get bigger and his jaws get stronger and he bites even harder and heals from it.

[NOMster]

A few things:

The heal from bite is once per turn. so no double up from your attack.
However if you get an OA somehow you could heal twice.

Claw only has to be one attack so you could: Greataxe + Claw + Claw

I like the idea of using the bite option on a ancestral guardian barbarian with a shield in one hand and javelins in the other.
Especially as a lizard folk.

I wonder if they will adjust things if you manifest a natural weapon you already have, like if it would increase die size by 1.


I asked but got no reply. Also you're right I misread the bite HP. But still it's HP every turn. Not temp but actual. That's pretty awesome on a barb.

[Misterwhisper]

I asked but got no reply. Also you're right I misread the bite HP. But still it's HP every turn. Not temp but actual. That's pretty awesome on a barb.

Yeah, it is amazing.

People realized how crazy that can get when they see a battlerager gaining thp every turn.

Combined with resistance it is just incredible.

[Jaryn]

I absolutely love the flavor of the monk, and the hands of healing and harm seem like very strong features to me that scale well. Not sure about the 17th level feature. It feels like it would probably be useful as a one-off in a campaign, but other high level abilities seem more consistently useable.

The other class I particularly like in terms of flavour is the paladin. Like many here, I think a small bonus to perception could be nice and the spell list, while good, seems a little odd. Genuinely not too sure how a bonus to initiative stacks up against the devotion or ancients auras. It doesn't feel as powerful to read, although I suspect it might well turn out so in play.

[Jakinbandw]

Not sure about the 17th level feature. It feels like it would probably be useful as a one-off in a campaign, but other high level abilities seem more consistently useable.

I'm not sure what you mean. It allows you to shut down a foe for as long as it would take to drag them to a nearby volcano and toss them in, or bury them alive, or any other method you have of dealing with them. With cheese you can make a party member completely immune to harm while also able to move and fight (as paralysis can be removed).

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Being 3 damage behind the guy that burned a feat specifically for damage is not hamstringing yourself.

No, no, no.

Obviously if you don't pump out max damage every round then you have a crappy build. Duh.

[jaappleton]

Over the years, I have never been excited about any Monk archetype. They all have their flaws to me.

Sun Soul’s lv11 doesn’t do half damage in a miss (for NO DAMN REASON, what’s up with that?!), Open Hand is fine but not exciting to me. Shadow does it’s job but is merely *fine*. Kensei is terrible. Drunken Master is... whatever. Astral Soul only rocks at higher levels, and Long Death does nothing exciting. And the old Tranquility UA? Excellent healer, but not a great fighter (sand Capstone).

So I always looked at the subclasses and never got excited to play a Monk. But I liked the *class*, just none of the Archetypes.

This Monk here? This bad boy? I’ve abandoned all other concepts for my Avernus campaign because I’m so in love with this.

[Jaryn]

I'm not sure what you mean. It allows you to shut down a foe for as long as it would take to drag them to a nearby volcano and toss them in, or bury them alive, or any other method you have of dealing with them. With cheese you can make a party member completely immune to harm while also able to move and fight (as paralysis can be removed).

OK I've re-read this and you are absolutely right about shutting down a foe with a touch and a failed save. Very strong. The second option feels like it might be RAW rather than RAI to me, but this is also true. It's rather use it in the first way though!

Definitely the most interesting monk subclass around at the moment in my opinion.

[Kane0]

‘Toss into a volcano’ was my first reaction upon reading too.

[Chaosmancer]

Sun Soul’s lv11 doesn’t do half damage in a miss (for NO DAMN REASON, what’s up with that?!),

I think it is because the ability is at-will. I don't think there are any at-will AOEs in the game that do half damage on a miss.

[MaxWilson]

I think it is because the ability is at-will. I don't think there are any at-will AOEs in the game that do half damage on a miss.

Does an Artillerist flamethrower count? One spell slot gives you an hour of at-will 3d8 (Dex save for half) 15' cone AoE attacks.

Edit: oh yes, and Thunderclap or Sword Burst cast by an Evoker is also 2d6+INT to 4d6+INT save-for-half in an 5' radius AoE.


I'm not sure what you mean. It allows you to shut down a foe for as long as it would take to drag them to a nearby volcano and toss them in, or bury them alive, or any other method you have of dealing with them. With cheese you can make a party member completely immune to harm while also able to move and fight (as paralysis can be removed).

Enchanter's 2nd level Hypnotic Gaze is also useful in most of these same scenarios, and some others including Planar Binding an enemy instead of killing them. (You just need the Enchanter to be willing to maintain their Hypnotic Gaze for an hour while someone else casts Planar Binding.)

[Misterwhisper]

‘Toss into a volcano’ was my first reaction upon reading too.

My first thought was, “wow, that is some easy kidnapping”

[AdAstra]

Does an Artillerist flamethrower count? One spell slot gives you an hour of at-will 3d8 (Dex save for half) 15' cone AoE attacks.

Edit: oh yes, and Thunderclap or Sword Burst cast by an Evoker is also 2d6+INT to 4d6+INT save-for-half in an 5' radius AoE.



Enchanter's 2nd level Hypnotic Gaze is also useful in most of these same scenarios, and some others including Planar Binding an enemy instead of killing them. (You just need the Enchanter to be willing to maintain their Hypnotic Gaze for an hour while someone else casts Planar Binding.)

I will point out that Sword Burst is Conjuration, thus making it ineligible for the Evoker's Empowered Evocation. Thunderclap should work fine though.

[Chaosmancer]

Does an Artillerist flamethrower count? One spell slot gives you an hour of at-will 3d8 (Dex save for half) 15' cone AoE attacks.

Edit: oh yes, and Thunderclap or Sword Burst cast by an Evoker is also 2d6+INT to 4d6+INT save-for-half in an 5' radius AoE.


I didn't count the Evokers ability on purpose, for two reasons. 1) Class specific ability breaks general design rule and 2) It is generally seen as a horrendous ability, because it only worked on one Cantrip in the PHB. It is... slightly better now? Since there are a few more wizard cantrips with saves for damage.


As for the Turret... I think the designers would say no. The turret can be destroyed relatively easily, and it costs a spell slot, making it a limited resource. Whereas, the monk's sun burst can only run out by killing the monk.

Edit:

I will point out that Sword Burst is Conjuration, thus making it ineligible for the Evoker's Empowered Evocation. Thunderclap should work fine though.

I think that was errata'd. M version of it simply says "when they fall a save against a damaging cantrip" so Conjuration works... oh right, Empowered is the "+Int mod" part. Got it.

[MaxWilson]

Oh, and of course Hunter's Volley is also an at-will AoE which can also benefit from Horde Breaker (extra attack) and Sharpshooter (more range and expected damage).

Edit: but I forgot you were looking for save-for-half AoEs.

BTW I disagree with your dismissal of the Evoker Thunderclap (pretty decent for armored Evokers) and Artificer turret (the turret is cheaper to recreate than the equivalent PC HP would typically be, so you're *glad* if enemies target it). I don't think Sun Soul Monk would be broken if its damage, like theirs, were save-for-half instead of save-for-none.


I will point out that Sword Burst is Conjuration, thus making it ineligible for the Evoker's Empowered Evocation. Thunderclap should work fine though.

Thanks! I was AFB, wrongly assumed it was evocation. I rarely see Sword Burst in play.

[Theaitetos]

Thanks! I was AFB, wrongly assumed it was evocation. I rarely see Sword Burst in play.

Sword Burst is dealing low damage at a tiny range, when compared to other offensive cantrips. The fact that it is an AoE is isn't doing much in its favor either, as Acid Splash deals the same damage to up to 2 enemies at a range of 60ft. So Sword Burst only outperforms Acid Splash when you hit 3 or more enemies with it AND all of them have to be immediately around you; that situation is usually undesirable for any caster, and in the few cases where such a situation is desired the caster usually has other, specific methods to deal with enemies.

Sword Burst also damages everyone around you, including your allies. That's why the 2 arcane AoE cantrips (Thunderclap being the other) see so little use. The divine cantrip Word of Radiance is better, as it allows you to choose the targets and your allies won't be damaged; it's cool on a Divine Soul with Distant Spell metamagic, as you can increase its range to 10ft.

[Jaryn]

My first thought was, “wow, that is some easy kidnapping”

Bring back to face a fair trial for their crimes?!

[Chaosmancer]

Edit: but I forgot you were looking for save-for-half AoEs.

BTW I disagree with your dismissal of the Evoker Thunderclap (pretty decent for armored Evokers) and Artificer turret (the turret is cheaper to recreate than the equivalent PC HP would typically be, so you're *glad* if enemies target it). I don't think Sun Soul Monk would be broken if its damage, like theirs, were save-for-half instead of save-for-none.

I wouldn't say I am dismissing it.

Jaapleton was saying their was no reason the Monk AOE shouldn't have a save for half. I postulate it is because it is an at-will AOE that costs the monk nothing to use. And as a general design principle, AOEs that are at-will, do not save for half.

The Artificer turret may have an incredibly low cost, but it does still have a cost. An Artificer cannot continuously use the turret all day. They can get it close, and I would argue it is close enough to count, but I imagine the designers felt differently which is why it is save for half.

Potent Cantrip does break it, but it is single class specific ability, and it was an incredibly weak ability when it first came out. Looking though, you can see it is the entire level 6 ability, to allow you to use (what was at the time a single cantrip in acid splash) as an multi-target, save for half, at will. That makes me suspect that the Designers saw save for half on an at-will AOE to be incredibly powerful.

Whether it is, I have no interest in debating, because it requires too much math and a lot of theorycrafting to come to a conclusion, but I think that is why the Sun Monk's AOE is not save for half, because that is a rule the design team gave themselves. If it is at-will, no save for half.

[Misterwhisper]

Bring back to face a fair trial for their crimes?!

Sure...

That is what I will tell people I use it for.

[SociopathFriend]

So what fun can you have with a Simic Hybrid and the Beastial Barbarian to just have ALL the appendages flailing around?

[Luccan]

Not that it's really a point in its favor, but doesn't Potent Cantrip apply to Poison Spray as well?

[Chaosmancer]

Not that it's really a point in its favor, but doesn't Potent Cantrip apply to Poison Spray as well?

Yeah, Poison Spray is a single target, so outside of what I am thinking about in this discussion, but it does apply to it.

[MaxWilson]

Potent Cantrip does break it, but it is single class specific ability, and it was an incredibly weak ability when it first came out. Looking though, you can see it is the entire level 6 ability, to allow you to use (what was at the time a single cantrip in acid splash) as an multi-target, save for half, at will. That makes me suspect that the Designers saw save for half on an at-will AOE to be incredibly powerful.

I don't understand why you have repeatedly emphasized that Potent Cantrip + Thunderclap is a subclass ability, when comparing it to another subclass ability: the Sun Soul radiant AoE ability.

But I get that you don't want to argue about it.