Worst Capstones? Level 11-19 progression?

[Yakk]

There are two themes I see in multiclassing builds.

Monk, Bard and Warlock are often described as disappointing capstones. With the full casters, you just stop when you get your level 9 spells, then grab 3 multiclass level dips for better features than your level 18, 19 or 20 ones.

Second, there is the disappointing level 11-19, like the Barbarian (well, 9 to 19). Even though the level 20 capstone is attractive, it is often not considered worth wading through 12 levels to get it. And when it is worth it, often you are fishing for subclass features instead of core barbarian features (like the zealot undying ones).

What capstones do you find disappointing? Are there other level ranges like the barbarian 9-19, or warlock 18, that suck?

[micahaphone]

I feel like monk 10 (immune to poison/disease), 14 (proficient in all saves, 1 ki to reroll failed save), 18 (4 ki to become invisible and gain resistance to all damage for a minute - concentrationless Greater Invisibility + Bear totem!) makes up for their lackluster level 20. Hell, that level 18 feature feels like it belongs at level 20. And the subclasses have fairly great perks at level 17 too.

I feel like Ranger gets very situational or mediocre perks at the higher levels. Level 10 you can be Drax and hide by staying still. Level 14 is bonus action hide, the thing rogues have been doing since the way beginning of the campaign. Level 18 negates most of the downsides to fighting an invisibile creature. Monks are becoming gods of combat, your caster allies are reshaping reality, paladins are a bulwark of support and righteous damage, and you're not disadvantaged when fighting invisible enemies. Whoooooooo what a perk. Level 20 is a + wis to one damage a turn, if you're fighting the right type of enemy. Paladins can transform into golden gods that explode with power, you're getting (at most) an extra +5 damage a turn. That's pitiful.

The subclasses also only give you things that other classes have had for ages, like Evasion and Uncanny Dodge at level 15. I feel like I could build a better Ranger out of the fighter or rogue class with some multiclassing. Scout Rogue, take a few levels in Druid, and you'll be doing most of what a level 20 Ranger can do by level 10.

[P. G. Macer]

I’m surprised neither of you mentioned the Sorcerer capstone, which can literally be achieved by taking two levels in Warlock instead, which as the only short-rest feature the sorcerer gets is very disappointing.

[Theaitetos]

Yes, the sorcerer, but even worse: The wild mage sorcerer, because the subclass features pretty much all suck. The storm sorcerer is the only subclass of sorcerer with a worthwhile capstone.

And in the new UA I just read, the Noble Genie subclass of the warlock: Collector's Call. lol :smallsigh:

[micahaphone]

I think Shadow gets some nice stuff (shadow step bonus action at 14th, turn into a shadow at 18), dragon and divine give flight at 14, and their level 18s are okay. Dragon gives an alternate use of sp for a charm/fear, divine gives a second-wind ability. Really, Wild Magic just got dumped upon it feels like. I guess Tides and Bend Luck are both good?

[Smoothjedi]

I’m surprised neither of you mentioned the Sorcerer capstone, which can literally be achieved by taking two levels in Warlock instead, which as the only short-rest feature the sorcerer gets is very disappointing.

Technically 3 levels of warlock so your spell slots are level 2.

[Yakk]

Level 20 is a + wis to one damage a turn, if you're fighting the right type of enemy
With UA variant, HW makes anyone you want your foe. And +wis accuracy can swing a miss into a hit; only if everything hits do you do +wis damage (on last hit).

Still, I see your point.

[Nagog]

Frankly, I find that Rogues are the most disappointing past level 11. Reliable Talent is the last truly great thing they pick up, from there on out it's pretty lackluster. Some of their subclasses have interesting things, but overall not worth it. It seems past level 11 they rely on your slaving devotion to Sneak Attack damage die to keep you around, but nothing truly new shows up. Blindsense can be gained elsewhere, and Slippery mind can be gained through a feat but is overall not worth it. Elusive is nice, but can be fairly situational, particularly when by the time you receive it, you're up against swarms (which will be rolling plenty of times anyway) or BBEGs, who can probably hit you even without advantage. Past level 11,it's multiclass or bust for me.

Other than that, I gotta say Monks. Similarly to Rogues, their subclasses can grant a lot of cool abilities, but for the most part 11-18 are situational at best and completely forgotten at worst. Timeless Body does very little (last I checked, there wasn't any RAW way to magically age somebody, age has no bearing on abilities, and it doesn't grant extended lifespan. Why is it even here then? Just in case your PC becomes an NPC later on?) and the only thing keeping you around is your dependence on Martial Arts Die and Ki Points, which not only enslave you to the class, they will also heavily punish you if you decide to multiclass out of Monk. Not to mention Martial Arts' lack of enhancability already puts them at a disadvantage.

[Lyracian]

With the full casters, you just stop when you get your level 9 spells, then grab 3 multiclass level dips for better features than your level 18, 19 or 20 ones.
I would say Bard and Wizard want there level 18 Spell Mastery/Magical Secrets leaving them 1-2 levels to multiclass depending if yo want the last feat. In general though I agree that spell casters are far more focused on having 17 levels for maximum spell access than any cap stone.


Second, there is the disappointing level 11-19, like the Barbarian (well, 9 to 19). Even though the level 20 capstone is attractive, it is often not considered worth wading through 12 levels to get it.
I feel this for a lot of classes! As you approach Tier 3 a dip into another class gives you a benefit for about 10 levels as opposed to holding out, even if it is a bigger bonus, for something you may only use for a couple of adventures.


What capstones do you find disappointing?
I find Cleric disappointing. The once per week and DM choice on Divine Intervention means I would rather have a 19% each day of getting Heroes Feast or True Resurrection and take a level of Sorcerer or Fighter to buff the overall build. Similar for Wizards and Bards I cannot see staying single classed other than for getting that "Achievement Unlocked" of having played the single classed character from levels 1 - 20.

Rogue is another one I am not that keen on. Reliable Talent already gives you a good skill buff and unless you are casting scrolls or dispel magic there is not a lot of ability checks you are going to be making.


I’m surprised neither of you mentioned the Sorcerer capstone, which can literally be achieved by taking two levels in Warlock instead, which as the only short-rest feature the sorcerer gets is very disappointing.
Well you do trade away the extra high level spell slots if you take Warlock and having less Sorcery Points as well. Getting Invocations is probably worth it but is does have a cost.

[Fable Wright]

Frankly, I find that Rogues are the most disappointing past level 11. Reliable Talent is the last truly great thing they pick up, from there on out it's pretty lackluster. Some of their subclasses have interesting things, but overall not worth it.
I don't think so. Thief gets ASI at 12, then Use Magic Device at 13 (which is AMAZING), Slippery Mind at 15 (because Wis saves are the worst), ASI at 16, then a free Action Surge+ every time they roll initiative at 17.


ther than that, I gotta say Monks. Similarly to Rogues, their subclasses can grant a lot of cool abilities, but for the most part 11-18 are situational at best and completely forgotten at worst. Timeless Body does very little (last I checked, there wasn't any RAW way to magically age somebody, age has no bearing on abilities, and it doesn't grant extended lifespan. Why is it even here then? Just in case your PC becomes an NPC later on?)

Your point is valid, but sphinxes and Ghosts magically age you.

I'm going to nominate Barbarian. Brutal Critical isn't a feature despite being your ONLY feature. Boo.

[MrStabby]

I would add cleric to the list. Whilst not being actively bad it is just a bit unexciting. The spells are probably the least exciting of any spell list, and you get nothing new. Your destroy undead CR level creeps up - not fast enough to be fun. You get a 3rd channel divinity use per short rest, maybe an extra d8 damage on one weapon attack on each of your turns at level 14 (again, when you probably no longer care about it).

[EdenIndustries]

I find Cleric disappointing. The once per week and DM choice on Divine Intervention means I would rather have a 19% each day of getting Heroes Feast or True Resurrection and take a level of Sorcerer or Fighter to buff the overall build.

Cleric might be my favourite capstone! At minimum you get another level 9 spell slot (the only RAW way to do so to my knowledge, outside of epic boons perhaps), and at most you can request anything that the DM is ok with. And sure there's a bit of DM fiat in there, and the week wait time is a bit weird, but it's a fantastic combination of power, versatility, and RP-potential all wrapped into one ability!

[Nagog]

I don't think so. Thief gets ASI at 12, then Use Magic Device at 13 (which is AMAZING), Slippery Mind at 15 (because Wis saves are the worst), ASI at 16, then a free Action Surge+ every time they roll initiative at 17.

Tbh I'd use the bonus ASI at 10 to get the feat that grants Wis save proficiency and be done with it. As a Rogue, I don't typically have Wis very high, in fact often I'll dump it if I'm going Arcane Trickster instead of dumping Int, so even with proficiency it's not going to do much until late tier 3/tier 4 and the prof. bonus is high enough to make it a passable save vs. a bad one.
I also mentioned that some of the subclasses have interesting stuff, but Use Magic Device is also heavily DM reliant to provide such devices, and have such devices be limited by race/class/level for those to be ignored.


Your point is valid, but sphinxes and Ghosts magically age you.
Ok, that makes sense. I still wouldn't count it as a worthwhile class feature with how limited that pool is.

I think the thread has covered pretty much every class at this point, for or against, except perhaps Artificer. Considering it's just been officially released, we may not get a clear read on that for a while yet unfortunately.

[Keravath]

I don't think I could generalize it as much as the OP.

Some classes offer some very good features in the 11-19 range. Capstones though are a mixed bag with some being amazing and others lackluster.

Monk
- Diamond Soul at 14 is amazing
- Level 18 - empty body - pretty amazing - invisible and resistant to all damage but force
- Level 20 - lackluster - gain 4 ki points if you start a fight with none.
- maybe 1 or 2 level dip in something - 3 levels loses empty body which is a pretty cool ability.

Barbarian
- Level 11 - relentless rage - also pretty good - but not that many good ones up to 20
- level 20 - +4 to str and con - one of the better capstones + unlimited rage

Bard
- level 9 spells up to level 17
- magical secrets at 14 is good
- magical secrets at 18 is almost irresistible since they can choose Wish and any other spell they like
- Level 20 - pretty useless capstone - no reason to not multiclass a bard for one or two levels depending on whether you need the ASI at 19

Cleric
- level 9 spells up to level 17
- Level 18 - channel divinity 3xrest - useful but not great
- Level 20 - improved divine intervention - very situational and DM dependent
- a good candidate for 3 levels of multiclassing if you don't want the level 19 feat

Druid
- very little except spells and ASI up to 17
- Level 18 - cast spells when transformed
- Level 20 - amazing capstone - especially for a moon druid
- if you go to 17 for level 9 spells then the capstone might be too tempting to resist depending on the character

Wizard
- archetype features - some are really good
- Spells up to level 9
- Level 18 - spell mastery - I am not sure it is worth giving this up - it is very good
- Level 20 - signature spells - pretty good

Fighter
- Level 11+ for fighters is about ASIs at 12, 14, 16 and 19
- Level 17 is action surge x 2 + indomitable x 3
- Level 18 is an archetype feature - mixed bag
- Level 20 is an extra 25% to 33% DPR from attacks (extra attack for 4 attacks/rd)

Warlock
- Level 11 is third spell slot (50% more spellcasting)
- Level 12 - bladelock - Thirsting blade
- Level 11+ possible 3 extra invocations - up to level 18
- Level 17 - four spell slots and one level 9 spell
- Level 20 - restore all your spell slots once/day in 1 minute - decent

Paladin
- level 11 - improved divine smite - really good
- level 14 - single target dispel magic - situational but no save or contested die roll - would it fix feeblemind?
- Level 18 - 30' auras - pretty amazing for a party
- capstones vary by archetype

Ranger
- generally not that useful high level abilities in my opinion - even the capstone seems weak.
- almost every feature from level 10+ in the base chassis is pretty situational
- if the OP was talking about this class alone I would probably agree with them

Rogue
- Level 11 - reliable talent is great
- Level 11+ sneak attack keeps scaling
- Level 15 - Wis saves at 15 are VERY useful in tier 4
- Level 18 - situationally useful but rogues shouldn't be attacked that often since they are usually ranged or skirmisher and even less often with advantage
- Level 20 - stroke of luck - 1/rest - limited use makes it lackluster and an easy option to replace
- could be a good choice for anywhere up to 9 levels of MC (though archetypes like trickster pick up more spells)

Sorcerer
- Level 17 for 9th level spells
- Level 14 features can be pretty good - wings for draconic sorcerer
- Level 18 - draconic presence - meh though situationally useful
- Level 20 - capstone is lackluster - 4 sorcery points which is two quickened spells - and can be replicated with a 3 level warlock dip
- probably good for a 3 level dip

Anyway, in my opinion, there are a lot of classes that offer something worthwhile in the 18 to 20 range as well as the 12-17 range but it depends on class.

In addition, most classes offer up more and more useful features (on average) in levels 1-10 than 11-20. Most classes are a bit front loaded so even when there are worthwhile options at the higher levels they can seem a bit weak compared to the features received earlier.

The weakest high level options probably go to Barbarian, rogue and ranger in my opinion. Warlock after 11 (tome or chain) or 12 (blade pact) could be considered optional since 8 or 9 levels of another class might offer more though you forego high level spell access. Some of the casters like cleric are mostly just getting higher level spells on the way to 18/20 features and the last ASI.

[Fable Wright]

I also mentioned that some of the subclasses have interesting stuff, but Use Magic Device is also heavily DM reliant to provide such devices, and have such devices be limited by race/class/level for those to be ignored.

Such as any spell staff? Which is admittedly basically the desired use case for UMD. Those usually show up in tier 3 in my experience as DMs try to reward spellcasters.

[micahaphone]

I'm surprised to see multiple people rating cleric's guaranteed divine intervention lowly - are you DMs really that strict that when one of the multiverse's strongest heroes calls for help, their god doesn't bring the thunder? I'd expect big huge effects, themed to the god. Everyone restored to max HP + some extra for Life, a massive growth of vines that restrain your enemy and an army of ents showing up to help for Nature, you and all your allies shine with cleansing burning light for a minute to hour for light domain, that kind of stuff. It's like having a Wish spell where you're somewhat limited in what you ask for and/or how it'll be given to you, but the giver is damn near guaranteed to be a big fan of the asker.

[MrStabby]

I'm surprised to see multiple people rating cleric's guaranteed divine intervention lowly - are you DMs really that strict that when one of the multiverse's strongest heroes calls for help, their god doesn't bring the thunder? I'd expect big huge effects, themed to the god. Everyone restored to max HP + some extra for Life, a massive growth of vines that restrain your enemy and an army of ents showing up to help for Nature, you and all your allies shine with cleansing burning light for a minute to hour for light domain, that kind of stuff. It's like having a Wish spell where you're somewhat limited in what you ask for and/or how it'll be given to you, but the giver is damn near guaranteed to be a big fan of the asker.

To be fair, I think many (myself included) were basing their responses to the title of the post - I think that there is a big difference between divine intervention at 19 and at 20. I do like divine intervention but it takes on a whole new role when you can get it reliably.

[diplomancer]

Bard capstone is so frustrating that it makes multiclassing almost mandatory if you are going to 20th level. In an ideal word, I'd like Bards to get subclass capstones (since they are the only class with only 3 levels with capstone features, 3, 6, and 14).

[Yakk]

I guess subclass features are worthwhile, but UA subclasses that aren't good aren't that interesting; they are playtest content. :)

[Nagog]

Such as any spell staff? Which is admittedly basically the desired use case for UMD. Those usually show up in tier 3 in my experience as DMs try to reward spellcasters.

Perhaps we just play in differently styled games. Games I play in and DM typically have custom magic items (similarly to The Adventure Zone's magic items) rather than the official printed items.

[Yakk]

Cleric 14 is actually disappointing. Higher level destroy undead only matters if you are fighting that CR undead, and you care about turn vs destroy much. You don't even gain any spells.