How to make Time Stop not be useless

[MaxWilson]

"This spell ends if one of the actions you use during this period, or any effects that you create during this period, affects a creature other than you or an object being worn or carried by someone other than you."

Best use I can think of for Time Stop is to use it as a pseudo-Action Surge. Maximilian's Assassination Special is to cast Time Stop, and then use that instant of frozen time time to instantly:

(1) Cast Sickening Radiance on an enemy, and
(2) Forcecage it to prevent it from getting out of the Sickening Radiance, and
(3) Feeblemind it to prevent it from Teleporting away or retaliating. (This ends the Time Stop.)

Since Sickening Radiance allows no saving throw against the exhaustion effect, the enemy will be dead in 36 seconds.

If you roll 4+ rounds on your Time Stop, you can optionally add a Pyrotechnics spell too between steps 2 and 3 to make you vanish in a puff of smoke, and prevent other people from Counterspelling any other spells you cast, including attempts to Dispel the Sickening Radiance or Disintegrate the Forcecage.

[Theaitetos]

Is this a topic? Maybe add your post to this thread from last week: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?606075-Exploiting-time-stop

[Vorpalchicken]

Does the save not negate the exhaustion effect?

[MaxWilson]

Does the save not negate the exhaustion effect?

Apparently not--I always thought it did, but I was rereading it last week and discovered that I had been misreading it. In a way this is too bad because it means Evokers' allies don't get to ignore the exhaustion bits, but oh well.

I had been reading it all along as if it were:

When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must (succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, suffer one level of exhaustion, and begin emitting a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius).

but in fact it is:

When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must (succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage), and it (suffers one level of exhaustion and emits a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius).


Is this a topic? Maybe add your post to this thread from last week: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?606075-Exploiting-time-stop

That thread is about an item that gives only 2 rounds of Time Stop per day. Maximilian's Assassination Special requires at least 3 rounds for full effectiveness, and also relies on being a high-level wizard. Different topics.

[Blood of Gaea]

Make it an 8th level spell and it will be usuable but still not amazing.

You could do the same combo you posted about, but instead us Prismatic Wall with Sickening Radience, just use the wall first.

[MaxWilson]

Make it an 8th level spell and it will be usuable but still not amazing.

You could do the same combo you posted about, but instead us Prismatic Wall with Sickening Radience, just use the wall first.

Not a bad idea, but it doesn't work on multiple levels:

(1) Prismatic Wall doesn't block teleportation so they can just Dimension Door or Teleport to freedom.
(2) Prismatic Wall doesn't block movement--a bad guy can still get out if they're willing to eat 50d6 (175) damage, saves for half, and risk petrification and being sent to another plane.
(3) The enemy has two rounds to act before you can finish casting Sickening Radiance and Feeblemind: they can teleport to freedom, ready a Feeblemind against you when you pop through the wall to cast a spell at them, Dispel the Sickening Radiance, etc.
(4) From outside, you can't Counterspell anything the enemy attempts to do because Prismatic Wall blocks it, so no chance of e.g. blocking their Teleport.

[sithlordnergal]

Ahhh, how to fix time stop. Really, there's one way to fix it, and it requires a very simple change. Take the "This spell ends if one of the actions you use during this period, or any effects that you create during this period, affects a creature other than you or an object being worn or carried by someone other than you." and change it to "This spell ends if one of the actions you use during this period, or any effects that you create during this period, damages a creature other than you."

That would allow different spells to be cast, including debuffs, without restricting you so heavily.

[MaxWilson]

Ahhh, how to fix time stop. Really, there's one way to fix it, and it requires a very simple change. Take the "This spell ends if one of the actions you use during this period, or any effects that you create during this period, affects a creature other than you or an object being worn or carried by someone other than you." and change it to "This spell ends if one of the actions you use during this period, or any effects that you create during this period, damages a creature other than you."

That would allow different spells to be cast, including debuffs, without restricting you so heavily.

Accepting the change of topic...

Yeah, that's one way to make it feel like a 9th level spell. Another way is to make it a reaction, taken whenever you want, instead of an action.

I thought it was interesting to find a combination that makes it non-useless, but the combo in the OP still doesn't feel like a 9th level spell, since the heavy lifting is being done mostly by Forcecage.

[Tanarii]

How is sickenening radiance not affeccting another creature in this scenario? Time stop should end the moment you cast it.

[MaxWilson]

How is sickenening radiance not affeccting another creature in this scenario? Time stop should end the moment you cast it.

Time stop: You briefly stop the flow of time for everyone but yourself. No time passes for other creatures, while you take 1d4 + 1 turns in a row, during which you can use actions and move as normal. This spell ends if one of the actions you use during this period, or any effects that you create during this period, affects a creature other than you or an object being worn or carried by someone other than you. In addition, the spell ends if you move to a place more than 1,000 feet from the location where you cast it.

Sickening Radiance: When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, and it suffers one level of exhaustion and emits a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius. This light makes it impossible for the creature to benefit from being invisible. The light and any levels of exhaustion caused by this spell go away when the spell ends.

No other creature is moving or taking turns, so Sickening Radiance has no effect while time is stopped (unless you enter the AoE yourself for some reason), so Time Stop continues until you do something that affects someone else (Feeblemind).

[Dark.Revenant]

FYI: Sickening Radiance does nothing on a succeeded save. Answered by JC: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/12/10/are-the-non-damaging-effects-from-sickening-radiance-exhaustion-and-no-invisibility-tie-to-the-save/

[Tanarii]

No other creature is moving or taking turns, so Sickening Radiance has no effect while time is stopped (unless you enter the AoE yourself for some reason), so Time Stop continues until you do something that affects someone else (Feeblemind).

That seems like semantics shenanigans

[MaxWilson]

FYI: Sickening Radiance does nothing on a succeeded save. Answered by JC: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/12/10/are-the-non-damaging-effects-from-sickening-radiance-exhaustion-and-no-invisibility-tie-to-the-save/

Hmmm, interesting! So it's just bad editing/awkward wording on WotC's part, not an intentional phrasing.

I don't mind that ruling because it actually makes the spell more useful, especially to Evokers. It does mean that the Time Stop combo takes longer than 36 seconds to kill, and it makes Web + Sickening Radiance less of a no-brainer combo.

[Misterwhisper]

I had an npc once:

Control water to raise water up.

Force cage solid type the water

Cast scatter to throw multiple people into the cage for drown. Can’t cast underwater so good luck.

[JNAProductions]

I had an npc once:

Control water to raise water up.

Force cage solid type the water

Cast scatter to throw multiple people into the cage for drown. Can’t cast underwater so good luck.

You can cast underwater.

[Misterwhisper]

You can cast underwater.

That is incredibly stupid and nonsensical.

Also, as far as I know that is only twitter official, so that will never show up in any game I run.

[JNAProductions]

That is incredibly stupid and nonsensical.

Also, as far as I know that is only twitter official, so that will never show up in any game I run.

What about being underwater makes it impossible to cast?

[Captain Panda]

That is incredibly stupid and nonsensical.

Also, as far as I know that is only twitter official, so that will never show up in any game I run.

Strange, never seen any reason at all why casting wouldn't work underwater. Sound travels in water better than air, you can wiggle your fingers and toes in water. What stops the casting?

[Tanarii]

What about being underwater makes it impossible to cast?
Possibly V components should cause you to lose some or even a significant amount of your time you can hold your breath? That'd be a House rule, but one that's makes sense at first glance.

[JNAProductions]

Possibly V components should cause you to lose some or even a significant amount of your time you can hold your breath? That'd be a House rule, but one that's makes sense at first glance.

That'd make sense. It's not RAW, as you said, but also as you said, it makes sense.

RAW, though, there's no penalty to casting underwater.

[crayzz]

Arguably any spell with vocal components wouldnt be useable underwater.

But yes, casting is not impossible underwater per se.

[ProsecutorGodot]

That is incredibly stupid and nonsensical.

Also, as far as I know that is only twitter official, so that will never show up in any game I run.

If a spell lacks a verbal component, what would stop you from casting a spell exactly? From my point of view, making a blanket statement that you can not cast underwater is ridiculous, I can come up with a laundry list of examples where it makes sense for a creature to be able to cast spells, including but not limited to:
-Non Verbal Spells
-Spellcasting creatures which can breathe underwater
-Psionic casting (or entirely componetless casting if calling it Psionics is a no go)
-Using magical items to cast spells

Strictly by the book, not even verbal components are limited by the barebones limitations we're given for underwater exploration and combat.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were talking about Verbal Component spells, which I would find myself agreeing. It's effectively being gagged by an inability to breathe and probably prohibits what you can do underwater... Unless you can breathe underwater, we have officially documented examples creatures that are primarily (and by primarily, I mean "almost exclusively") found submerged and can cast spells:
Slarkrethel the Kraken has a unique statblock, being a spellcaster. The only limitations that this monster is given is that while all of its tentacles are occupied with smashing the Morkoth is cannot take other actions. This makes sense because it has no free hands for spellcasting and has nothing to do with its ability to do so underwater.
Elder Brains are submerged in brine and cast spells. Marid, who hail from the Elemental Plane of Water (they're specifically noted to reside in a distinctly underwater portion of it) also cast spells. I assume that these creatures don't suddenly gain spellcasting ability when thrust out of whatever liquid they house themselves in, it makes the most sense to say that they can cast spells underwater. These are both innate casters who require no components if that matters to you.

[MaxWilson]

It's effectively being gagged by an inability to breathe and probably prohibits what you can do underwater...

You can talk underwater--in what way is that like being gagged?

However, you don't sound normal underwater, due to all the bubbles. I could understand a DM who rules that verbal components might not work underwater, if you can't breath liquid.

Excuse me, now I need to go re-watch the climax of The Abyss.

[ProsecutorGodot]

You can talk underwater--in what way is that like being gagged?

However, you don't sound normal underwater, due to all the bubbles. I could understand a DM who rules that verbal components might not work underwater, if you can't breath liquid.

Excuse me, now I need to go re-watch the climax of The Abyss.

I'm trying to rationalize it in a way that would actually prohibit spellcasting, gagged being one of the few examples of makes spells with verbal components impossible. It obviously doesn't do everything that a traditional gag does but I'm floating out the argument that you could treat it similarly, perhaps being underwater is enough of a hamper because a spells verbal component might involve and intake of breath, which could prove deadly at that time.

That's just my personal take on it anyway, again purely by the rules there's absolutely nothing to stop you from casting spells underwater even if it's in my opinion a bit nonsensical that your verbal components would be unhampered.

[MaxWilson]

I'm trying to rationalize it in a way that would actually prohibit spellcasting, gagged being one of the few examples of makes spells with verbal components impossible. It obviously doesn't do everything that a traditional gag does but I'm floating out the argument that you could treat it similarly, perhaps being underwater is enough of a hamper because a spells verbal component might involve and intake of breath, which could prove deadly at that time.

I think that would be a reasonable inference in a game where each round is a full minute, but not in 5E where spells are apparently only a few words at most (less than six seconds).

[kazaryu]

"This spell ends if one of the actions you use during this period, or any effects that you create during this period, affects a creature other than you or an object being worn or carried by someone other than you."

Snip

(1) Cast Sickening Radiance on an enemy, and



Just outta curiousity..what prevents sickening radiance from ending time stop? I mean forcecage+sickening radiance is still solid. Amazing even (although expensive). But...i dont see how you can do sickening radiance and feeblemind in the same timestop


Counterspelling any other spells you cast, including attempts to Dispel the Sickening Radiance or Disintegrate the Forcecage.
theres an argument to be made that they wouldn't be able to dispel through the forcecage assuming a box shaped forcecage (although a box shape would be impossible if im right about sickening radiance ending timeatop)

Thag being said, unless ive missed an eratta (admitedly possible) disintigrate doesnt actually break forcecage, only wall of force

[MaxWilson]

Just outta curiousity..what prevents sickening radiance from ending time stop? I mean forcecage+sickening radiance is still solid. Amazing even (although expensive). But...i dont see how you can do sickening radiance and feeblemind in the same timestop

At the risk of repeating post #10,

Time stop: You briefly stop the flow of time for everyone but yourself. No time passes for other creatures, while you take 1d4 + 1 turns in a row, during which you can use actions and move as normal. This spell ends if one of the actions you use during this period, or any effects that you create during this period, affects a creature other than you or an object being worn or carried by someone other than you. In addition, the spell ends if you move to a place more than 1,000 feet from the location where you cast it.


Sickening Radiance: When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, and it suffers one level of exhaustion and emits a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius. This light makes it impossible for the creature to benefit from being invisible. The light and any levels of exhaustion caused by this spell go away when the spell ends.

No other creature is moving or taking turns, so Sickening Radiance has no effect while time is stopped (unless you enter the AoE yourself for some reason), so Time Stop continues until you do something that affects someone else (Feeblemind).

[Galithar]

Thag being said, unless ive missed an eratta (admitedly possible) disintigrate doesnt actually break forcecage, only wall of force

While neither spell explicitly mentions the others, disintegrate DOES work to destroy a force cage (or part of it) and here's why:

Disintegrate:
"This spell automatically disintegrates a Large or smaller nonmagical object or a creation of magical force. If the target is a Huge or larger object or creation of force, this spell disintegrates a 10-foot cube portion of it."

Forcecage:
"An immobile invisible cube-shaped prison composed of magical force springs into existence"

Emphasis mine in both quotes.

This means that disintegrate automatically disintegrates a box, or a 10 foot cube worth of a prison. Either way the trapped creature(s) would then be free.

A 10 by 10 box is large sized which is why it would be fully disintegrated.

Now some of that may be from the eratta as I just pulled it from my book and I don't know what version/how much eratta it is.

[kazaryu]

While neither spell explicitly mentions the others, disintegrate DOES work to destroy a force cage (or part of it) and here's why:

Disintegrate:
"This spell automatically disintegrates a Large or smaller nonmagical object or a creation of magical force. If the target is a Huge or larger object or creation of force, this spell disintegrates a 10-foot cube portion of it."

Forcecage:
"An immobile invisible cube-shaped prison composed of magical force springs into existence"

Emphasis mine in both quotes.

This means that disintegrate automatically disintegrates a box, or a 10 foot cube worth of a prison. Either way the trapped creature(s) would then be free.

A 10 by 10 box is large sized which is why it would be fully disintegrated.

Now some of that may be from the eratta as I just pulled it from my book and I don't know what version/how much eratta it is.

Ahhh, fair enough, then. Neat.

[Theaitetos]

Being underwater doesn’t prevent spellcasting.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/21/can-i-cast-underwater/


No rule prohibits verbal components from working underwater. Keep in mind that if you're talking, you're not holding your breath.

https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/816440444162715648



If a creature can breath underwater, can it perform the verbal component for spells underwater
Yes.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/785994581900861440

[Tanarii]

Just outta curiousity..what prevents sickening radiance from ending time stop? I mean forcecage+sickening radiance is still solid. Amazing even (although expensive). But...i dont see how you can do sickening radiance and feeblemind in the same timestop
Exactly. I don't buy the argument that because the mechanical trigger is "start of their turn" it's not affecting creatures in the area of effect.

I might find it a reasonable argument if it was at the end of their turn, like Flame Sphere. But even then I'd consider it pretty shady business practices, an attempt to game the system.

[MaxWilson]

Exactly. I don't buy the argument that because the mechanical trigger is "start of their turn" it's not affecting creatures in the area of effect.

I might find it a reasonable argument if it was at the end of their turn, like Flame Sphere. But even then I'd consider it pretty shady business practices, an attempt to game the system.

I thought this was rude the first time you said it and I still think it's rude.

No counterargument, no alternate proposal, just jump straight to accusations of bad faith? It's no crime to take the game rules at face value and try to think within the physical constraints they imply. It's exactly what we expect intelligent PCs to do, in-character, if they want to stay alive.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Exactly. I don't buy the argument that because the mechanical trigger is "start of their turn" it's not affecting creatures in the area of effect.

I might find it a reasonable argument if it was at the end of their turn, like Flame Sphere. But even then I'd consider it pretty shady business practices, an attempt to game the system.

Is there any reason why it couldn't be explained that an effect that hasn't affected the target yet is also suspended in the time stop?

This seems logical to me. Would you say that dropping caltrops under the target would end the spell? They haven't affected the target yet but share very similar wording to sickening radiance.

Compare it to grease, which affects creatures in its target area immediately and I see merit in sickening radiance being acceptable in this case.

[Segev]

If you can find a way to delay the effects of spells for a few rounds, a delayed spell won't "go off" until the time stop is over. Heck, if you just delay it 1 round, it works, if the DM rules that the spell durations et al last according to real time and not your few rounds of frozen time.

Personally, I'd use forcecage and creation to trap the victim underneath a super-heavy block of iron or the like that completely fills the cage at the top and drops onto them. If (as I vaguely remember might be the case) creation can't do that, I use some other means of getting said block in place during frozen time and then forcecage around the assembly. Enjoy your chunky salsa at the bottom of the cage when time resumes.

One could also argue that any spell which creates a lingering AoE that works when creatures enter or start their turns in it - as the OP argues - do not affect anything when cast. Such are good choices for battlefield control.

Anything that reorganizes the terrain is also a good choice to spend your few rounds working on. Buffs for yourself work, too, though it'd be nice if you could figure out a way to buff your allies instead.

[Theaitetos]

Exactly. I don't buy the argument that because the mechanical trigger is "start of their turn" it's not affecting creatures in the area of effect.

I might find it a reasonable argument if it was at the end of their turn, like Flame Sphere. But even then I'd consider it pretty shady business practices, an attempt to game the system.

I agree with MaxWilson, your comments on this aren't arguments, just offenses.

I once had a lengthy argument with MaxWilson why I think Grease is better than Web, and it largely rested on the fact that Web doesn't affect a creature until that creature starts its turn. Not being affected until your own turn begins also means that others can move you out of the AoE before anything happens to you, i.e. the enemies can save each other from a Web spell by pushing their allies out. That is not "gaming the system" either. If you don't like that, bring it up with the WotC team, but it's not gaming the system by following its rules. Especially with a weak spell like Time Stop.

In fact, Time Stop isn't even necessary for such a method: Cast an (open) Forcecage on a creature, follow it with Sickening Radiance next round and on the third round cast Scatter on all the enemies that escaped the Forcecage. As an Undying Warlock, follow it up with Silence to make sure nobody in there casts spells to escape.

[MaxWilson]

In fact, Time Stop isn't even necessary for such a method: Cast an (open) Forcecage on a creature, follow it with Sickening Radiance next round and on the third round cast Scatter on all the enemies that escaped the Forcecage. As an Undying Warlock, follow it up with Silence to make sure nobody in there casts spells to escape.

Another way to do it without Time Stop is to coordinate with allies via readied actions. "Fellow PC, please Ready a Forcecage to go off as soon as I cast Sickening Radiance on the bad guy!"

[kazaryu]

I thought this was rude the first time you said it and I still think it's rude.

No counterargument, no alternate proposal, just jump straight to accusations of bad faith? It's no crime to take the game rules at face value and try to think within the physical constraints they imply. It's exactly what we expect intelligent PCs to do, in-character, if they want to stay alive.

to be fair you didn't reply to me though. i didn't make an ad hominem, i simply asked for reasoning.
now, i've since found places within the thread that explain it. and in the spirit of that i'll reply.

sickening radiance has 2 points where it affects an enemy: at the start of their turn (obviously doesn't interact with timestop) and when they first enter the area on *a* turn. previously you mentioned that noone elses turns are progressing, but from a mechanical standpoint, your turns are. it explicitly says so in the Timestops description.

so imo even mechanically RaW it wouldn't work fully.

of course as a combo with allies it definitely works. and you can still get sickening radiance+cage shaped forcecage off. in the same timestop. if this is an actual assassination (as the name of the combo implies) you can also use contingency to give yourself some kind of escape (like teleport, planeshift, etherealness (if you wanna be safe but still stick around to confirm the kill).

there's also a possibility of you using an action on one turn to prepare sickening radiance, then cast it just before your next turn, so they both go off at once without timestop this would allow you to get a box shape too, thus making the sickening radiance harder to dispel.

[Theaitetos]

sickening radiance has 2 points where it affects an enemy: at the start of their turn (obviously doesn't interact with timestop) and when they first enter the area on *a* turn. previously you mentioned that noone elses turns are progressing, but from a mechanical standpoint, your turns are. it explicitly says so in the Timestops description.

so imo even mechanically RaW it wouldn't work fully.

The Sage Advice Compendium (page 16) clearly states how "enter" is meant with regards to spells like Moonbeam and this. So no, Sickening Radiance does not affect the creature, as this isn't regarded as "entering".

https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf

[MaxWilson]

to be fair you didn't reply to me though.

Didn't I, in post #27? What other reply did you want?


i didn't make an ad hominem, i simply asked for reasoning.

I didn't think you said anything rude or ad hominem. I was talking about Tanar'ri's posts #12 and #1.

I realize that you and I disagree about Sickening Radiance, and there's nothing rude about discussing a disagreement--I have no beef with you and I'm happy to discuss further below.


now, i've since found places within the thread that explain it. and in the spirit of that i'll reply.

sickening radiance has 2 points where it affects an enemy: at the start of their turn (obviously doesn't interact with timestop) and when they first enter the area on *a* turn. previously you mentioned that noone elses turns are progressing, but from a mechanical standpoint, your turns are. it explicitly says so in the Timestops description.

so imo even mechanically RaW it wouldn't work fully.

I'm not following. What's making them move into the area? They're already in it. If I adopt your reading, Sickening Radiance becomes incredibly overpowered becomes it triggers everytime anyone, anywhere, takes a turn: if there's 100 skeletons on the battlefield you'll be making 100 saving throws per round. That's obviously not what "When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there" is trying to say.


of course as a combo with allies it definitely works. and you can still get sickening radiance+cage shaped forcecage off. in the same timestop. if this is an actual assassination (as the name of the combo implies) you can also use contingency to give yourself some kind of escape (like teleport, planeshift, etherealness (if you wanna be safe but still stick around to confirm the kill).

there's also a possibility of you using an action on one turn to prepare sickening radiance, then cast it just before your next turn, so they both go off at once without timestop this would allow you to get a box shape too, thus making the sickening radiance harder to dispel.

This is an interesting option. Thanks for sharing it. I think it would depend mostly on how the DM rules readied actions: can other creatures perceive what action you have readied? Note that there are special rules for spells (per PHB rules, you cast the spell as part of readying the action and just hold on to its energy). You might also get into trouble with people who insist that there are no readied actions outside of combat, which might force you to start a fake fight or something, but it's nevertheless an interesting option.

I wouldn't have thought of that one because I use a different initiative system, partly because I find the PHB initiative system predictable and exploitable in ways that break my suspension of disbelief, including this way. But it's an interesting and legitimate in-combat tactic if your DM is using PHB initiative.

[sithlordnergal]

sickening radiance has 2 points where it affects an enemy: at the start of their turn (obviously doesn't interact with timestop) and when they first enter the area on *a* turn. previously you mentioned that noone elses turns are progressing, but from a mechanical standpoint, your turns are. it explicitly says so in the Timestops description

So, there's a reason you wouldn't want Sickening Radiance to work an any turn that they enter the effects of it, and that reason is simply Moonbeam. Moonbeam and Sickening Radiance have the exact same wording as each other:

-Moonbeam-

"When a creature enters the spell's area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it is engulfed in ghostly flames that cause searing pain, and it must make a Constitution saving throw."

-Sickening Radiance-

"When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, and it suffers one level of exhaustion and emits a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius"

While I will admit that "enter" and "moves" are two different words, they essentially mean the same thing. If we used your method, where Sickening Radiance harms a creature when its not their turn, then it means Moonbeam goes off when its not a creature's turn. Which means you now have a 2nd level spell that deals 2d10 radiant damage to as many people as you can hit with 60ft of movement every round for the next 10 rounds. It ends up having more versatility then a lot of 3rd level spells, despite only doing 2d10 damage...and it becomes stronger the more creatures you face.

Its a lot more balanced to say the damage doesn't happen until the creature's turn, whether they start their turn in the effect or enter the effect during their turn. And if we use that ruling, then Sickening Radiance doesn't do anything to anyone until their turn comes around, allowing it to be cast with Time Stop.

[kazaryu]

Didn't I, in post #27? What other reply did you want?

[Quote]
Ah, apologies, i somehow overlooked that post. due to...circumstances im primarily using my phone, and its made it much easier to scroll past posts without realizing it.

[Quote]
I'm not following. What's making them move into the area? They're already in it. If I adopt your reading, Sickening Radiance becomes incredibly overpowered becomes it triggers everytime anyone, anywhere, takes a turn: if there's 100 skeletons on the battlefield you'll be making 100 saving throws per round. That's obviously not what "When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there" is trying to say.



Thats not neccisarily true. Theres a difference between when the effect is first created and the subsequent turns. That being, theres actually a change that occurs during your turn that doesnt happen on the subsequent turns leading up to the targetted enemies turn. So even with my interpretation it wouldnt force the saving throw on every single subsequent turn.

Now, i will admit that your interpretation is also valid as far as RaW, and tbf my ruling really just makes it slightly easier to escape, it doesnt prevent the actual death combo.

[Aimeryan]

So, there's a reason you wouldn't want Sickening Radiance to work an any turn that they enter the effects of it, and that reason is simply Moonbeam. Moonbeam and Sickening Radiance have the exact same wording as each other:

-Moonbeam-

"When a creature enters the spell's area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it is engulfed in ghostly flames that cause searing pain, and it must make a Constitution saving throw."

-Sickening Radiance-

"When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, and it suffers one level of exhaustion and emits a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius"

While I will admit that "enter" and "moves" are two different words, they essentially mean the same thing. If we used your method, where Sickening Radiance harms a creature when its not their turn, then it means Moonbeam goes off when its not a creature's turn. Which means you now have a 2nd level spell that deals 2d10 radiant damage to as many people as you can hit with 60ft of movement every round for the next 10 rounds. It ends up having more versatility then a lot of 3rd level spells, despite only doing 2d10 damage...and it becomes stronger the more creatures you face.

Its a lot more balanced to say the damage doesn't happen until the creature's turn, whether they start their turn in the effect or enter the effect during their turn. And if we use that ruling, then Sickening Radiance doesn't do anything to anyone until their turn comes around, allowing it to be cast with Time Stop.

Two points here:


I agree with 'moves into' and 'enters' mean essentially the same thing in respect to the point kazaryu was making; both are atomic verbs indicative of an instant change of state. This is important because you can not still be doing this at a later point; you have already changed state. This is what stops the effect applying on everyone's turns automatically. Note, you can have this re-occur, if you reverse the state first - in this case, you have to have the creature leave the area then re-'enter/moves into'.
You can have this occur outside of the creatures turn, it just requires the creature enters/moves into the spells area outside of its turn. This can occur due to a readied action or forced movement (no 'willingly' is used here).

As a tangential point, Moonbeam's 'enters' reads by RAW as not requiring movement on the creatures part at all - RASAC makes that a requirement. Sickening Radiance, on the other hand, does require by RAW that the creature moves into the area.

On topic, I would agree with MaxWilson; the Sickening Radiance does not affect the creature until it says it does, which is when the creature moves into the area or starts its turn there - it does neither. Moonbeam, on the other hand, I would rule differently for, since it enters the area the moment the area overlaps with its own - unless I was RASAC.

[Damon_Tor]

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/21/can-i-cast-underwater/



https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/816440444162715648



https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/785994581900861440

Here's why I disagree:

"Most Spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of Silence, such as one created by the Silence spell, can’t Cast a Spell with a verbal component."

Keyword: resonance. The way sound travels through the water makes it impossible to get the same resonance in air as one does underwater unless your vocal organs are adapted to do so.

[MoiMagnus]

Time stop is a mess, and when trying to design/fix such a spell, you have two design directions:

1) Gamify it. Want to cut the throat of someone? Great, make an attack roll against him. I don't care that there is literal no way you could "miss" him, we will apply the same rules as if he was paralyzed, so an advantage. Or maybe the rules for unconscious? If you go in that direction, forbidding any "exploit" by saying "duh, there is no action within the rule that allow you to do that", then you can probably craft a balanced and interesting Time Stop that give unrestricted turns. I'd say 1d2+1 instead of the 1d4+1.

2) Balance this spell so that it is mostly useless per itself, and only gain some efficient uses if peoples "exploit" it (finding wording of other spells/actions that can be exploited) or find clever circumstantial uses (using it for infiltration purposes, ...). This is the current balance of the spell.

[MaxWilson]

Time stop is a mess, and when trying to design/fix such a spell, you have two design directions:

1) Gamify it. Want to cut the throat of someone? Great, make an attack roll against him. I don't care that there is literal no way you could "miss" him, we will apply the same rules as if he was paralyzed, so an advantage. Or maybe the rules for unconscious? If you go in that direction, forbidding any "exploit" by saying "duh, there is no action within the rule that allow you to do that", then you can probably craft a balanced and interesting Time Stop that give unrestricted turns. I'd say 1d2+1 instead of the 1d4+1.

2) Balance this spell so that it is mostly useless per itself, and only gain some efficient uses if peoples "exploit" it (finding wording of other spells/actions that can be exploited) or find clever circumstantial uses (using it for infiltration purposes, ...). This is the current balance of the spell.

You're not wrong, but #1 is not necessarily gamifying it: it could also be simulationifying it. Depends entirely on whether the DM says the rules have a physical basis or not. If HP on the character sheet represent actual physical toughness or life force in the game universe, it could genuinely be the case that someone isn't easy to murder with one stab even while paralyzed/frozen in time. Maybe cutting their throat once isn't enough to kill them.

[MoiMagnus]

You're not wrong, but #1 is not necessarily gamifying it: it could also be simulationifying it. Depends entirely on whether the DM says the rules have a physical basis or not. If HP on the character sheet represent actual physical toughness or life force in the game universe, it could genuinely be the case that someone isn't easy to murder with one stab even while paralyzed/frozen in time. Maybe cutting their throat once isn't enough to kill them.

Indeed. I'm probably biased by the fact I trust myself much more to create rules of a game that works than rules of a world that are consistent, and predictable enough so that "thousands of years of NPCs living in the world" do not miss an obvious application/exploit of the rules I've put.

[deathangelmikey]

Thinking out of the Box here... our group of 14 players only has one Cleric and no other Magic users. We are looking for a way to disrupt spells such as TimeStop or similar massive spells which require concentration.

Would it be possible to have a subset of our group, which have breach loaded Cannons and experimental long range rifles(100/180ft) shadow the main group at a distance and shoot the caster of a TimeStop spell to cause a disruption and thereby release the part of our team under TimeStop?

Just trying to think of ways to disrupt and defend again advanced attacks by a Magic user.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Unfortunately, Time Stop did not affect this thread.