I only find sorcerers fun (help me find a build to play!)

[SquirtleSquad]

Okay, so I've gotten into 5e about a year ago after playing a lot of pathfinder, where I basically exclusively played magus, who could both cast a spell and attack as an action, meaning at level 2 (?, Not sure 100%), they could use another ability, spell strike, allowing them to deliver touch spells via weapon attack, attacking two times per turn and cast a touch spell. I found this extremely fun.

In 5e, I initially saw the eldritch Knight and thought I found exactly what I wanted, but in practice, it just felt like a fighter with shield and some other useless spells. I ended up just playing "I attack him with my longsword" every round

After this, the DM let me switch to a sorcerer, and I also ran a wizard in a different game with the same DM. On these forums people seem to play a lot more wizard and think the sorcerer is weak because the wizard has more spells known that the sorcerer lacks, but having played both classes, I feel more like the wizard lacks metamagic a lot more than the sorcerer lacks versatility.

In a totally separate campaign, my goblin paladin 2/ sorcerer 3 just died in a very poorly calculated assassination attempt after getting shot by 30 crossbow bolts, and that was the most fun character I've ever played. I'm not sure if I want to just play aNOTHER sorcerer just because I keep coming back each week with different sorcerers, so

(Using standard array, any race, any books, no homebrew)

TL:DR - what character can I play that can
1. Cast spells and fight in melee simultaneously
2. Deal nova damage (smite, sneak attack, ???)
3. Tank (yes, I play exclusively squishy casters and tank. I don't care about saves or HP, shield + good ac is good enough for me.)

Alternatively,
What multiclasses work with sorcerer? Already tried sorcadin and sorc/rogue

[Theaitetos]

Clerics can be tanky, battle in melee, and cast spells; they all have medium armor & shields proficiency, and some even get heavy armor for max AC. However, their spells are often more support-oriented than blasting and they usually rely on melee attacks to deal regular damage.

Warlocks are pretty strong and versatile. For example, if you go with the Hexblade patron and the Blade pact, you can be a very strong melee combatant with Eldritch Smite & Eldritch Armor – especially when optimized as a Half-Elf. Regular warlocks focus on their huge Eldritch Blast cantrip damage from afar and the occasional spell: Warlocks have a low amount of spell slots compared to other casters, however they also recharge on short rests, not just long rests, so they're more like 3/4th casters than full casters.

Druids can wildshape into beasts and hold themselves in melee; while not wildshaped they can use good conjuration & controlling spells or channel damage spells like Control Lightning.

Classic multiclass for sorcerers are warlocks and paladins, as they all rely on CHA as their primary stat. Since full casters get their 9th-level spells at level 17, most multiclass builds have 17 levels in that class, so for example a Sorcerer 17 / Warlock 3 build is generally a good build. 3 levels in warlock give you all you want from that class: the patron benefits, Eldritch Blast, 2 invocations and a Pact boon (usually Chain or Blade, sometimes Tome). Storm sorcerers can even go 18 levels as their capstone is so amazing, so they often multiclass with paladin 2.

If you want to play a tanky squishy sorcerer, try this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds&p=24325811&viewfull=1#post24325811); it's a Storm sorcerer with max AC who goes into melee to control the battlefield and zap his enemies with powerful lightning & thunder. He can also cast a Fog Cloud to escape 30 crossbow bolts…

[AgenderArcee]

So your new character will be level 5? How about a Half-Elf or maybe Glasya Tiefling Red/Gold Draconic Sorcerer 4/Fighter 1 with Green Flame Blade and Dueling style? With +3 Dex you'll have 16 AC with scales, then wield a rapier and shield for 18 AC. More if you boost your Dex, which you might want to do before Cha if you're planning to primarily be in melee. Aim for Sorcerer 6/Fighter 2. Your Elemental Affinity will make your GFB stronger, Draconic Resilience will give you a little extra HP, and Action Surge will give you great nova damage. Not needing the 13 Strength for Paladin multiclassing will let you dump Str and focus on Dex and Cha.

That said, Sorcerer/Fighter could also work with a Strength build with heavy armor, provided you take Fighter at level 1. This would allow you to wield a more powerful weapon such as a greatsword. You could even use Enlarge/Reduce on yourself and be a strong grappler, in addition to the extra d4 of damage.

Taking Booming Blade as well would help you tank, since it would punish enemies for moving away from you. You can also twin it, unlike GFB.

[zinycor]

Cleric, specially Tempest domain.

Heavy armor, proficient in martial weapons, damaging lightning spells, amazing channel divinity.

[SquirtleSquad]

Clerics can be tanky, battle in melee, and cast spells; they all have medium armor & shields proficiency, and some even get heavy armor for max AC. However, their spells are often more support-oriented than blasting and they usually rely on melee attacks to deal regular damage.

Warlocks are pretty strong and versatile. For example, if you go with the Hexblade patron and the Blade pact, you can be a very strong melee combatant with Eldritch Smite & Eldritch Armor – especially when optimized as a Half-Elf. Regular warlocks focus on their huge Eldritch Blast cantrip damage from afar and the occasional spell: Warlocks have a low amount of spell slots compared to other casters, however they also recharge on short rests, not just long rests, so they're more like 3/4th casters than full casters.

Druids can wildshape into beasts and hold themselves in melee; while not wildshaped they can use good conjuration & controlling spells or channel damage spells like Control Lightning.

Classic multiclass for sorcerers are warlocks and paladins, as they all rely on CHA as their primary stat. Since full casters get their 9th-level spells at level 17, most multiclass builds have 17 levels in that class, so for example a Sorcerer 17 / Warlock 3 build is generally a good build. 3 levels in warlock give you all you want from that class: the patron benefits, Eldritch Blast, 2 invocations and a Pact boon (usually Chain or Blade, sometimes Tome). Storm sorcerers can even go 18 levels as their capstone is so amazing, so they often multiclass with paladin 2.

If you want to play a tanky squishy sorcerer, try this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds&p=24325811&viewfull=1#post24325811); it's a Storm sorcerer with max AC who goes into melee to control the battlefield and zap his enemies with powerful lightning & thunder. He can also cast a Fog Cloud to escape 30 crossbow bolts…
Doesn't a sorcerer outclass both the druid and cleric?
Divine soul gets the cleric spell list, as well as polymorph.

What's the main benefit from a 2 level warlock dip? I'll be taking at most 1 short rest / session with long rests between every session

[SquirtleSquad]

So your new character will be level 5? How about a Half-Elf or maybe Glasya Tiefling Red/Gold Draconic Sorcerer 4/Fighter 1 with Green Flame Blade and Dueling style? With +3 Dex you'll have 16 AC with scales, then wield a rapier and shield for 18 AC. More if you boost your Dex, which you might want to do before Cha if you're planning to primarily be in melee. Aim for Sorcerer 6/Fighter 2. Your Elemental Affinity will make your GFB stronger, Draconic Resilience will give you a little extra HP, and Action Surge will give you great nova damage. Not needing the 13 Strength for Paladin multiclassing will let you dump Str and focus on Dex and Cha.

That said, Sorcerer/Fighter could also work with a Strength build with heavy armor, provided you take Fighter at level 1. This would allow you to wield a more powerful weapon such as a greatsword. You could even use Enlarge/Reduce on yourself and be a strong grappler, in addition to the extra d4 of damage.

Taking Booming Blade as well would help you tank, since it would punish enemies for moving away from you. You can also twin it, unlike GFB.

The thing I struggle with is with the early levels of paladin, I get everything from fighter, except smite instead of action surge, which I can do more than once per day. At level 5 I'll have GFB doing 2d8 damage, which presumably I'll be casting as my action surge, but I could also just smite for an extra 2d8 multiple times per day with pally, and also get 2 spells slots and 3ish valuable new known spells

[zinycor]

Doesn't a sorcerer outclass both the druid and cleric?
Divine soul gets the cleric spell list, as well as polymorph.

What's the main benefit from a 2 level warlock dip? I'll be taking at most 1 short rest / session with long rests between every session

I don't think so, Sure, sorcerer's do more damage but clerics and druid have more defenses and more utility.

[AgenderArcee]

The thing I struggle with is with the early levels of paladin, I get everything from fighter, except smite instead of action surge, which I can do more than once per day. At level 5 I'll have GFB doing 2d8 damage, which presumably I'll be casting as my action surge, but I could also just smite for an extra 2d8 multiple times per day with pally, and also get 2 spells slots and 3ish valuable new known spells

I mean, Sorcadin pretty much is better, yeah, except for Dex builds. I thought you wanted to try something different, though.

[Theaitetos]

Doesn't a sorcerer outclass both the druid and cleric?
Divine soul gets the cleric spell list, as well as polymorph.

What's the main benefit from a 2 level warlock dip? I'll be taking at most 1 short rest / session with long rests between every session

Warlock dips depend on what you want: 1 level is usually for medium armor & shields (Hexblade) and a weak Eldritch Blast; 2 levels is to make Eldritch Blast strong (Agonizing Blast) & another invocation; 3 levels is for the Pact boon & the spell-slots. As a sorcerer, either go 1 or 3 levels, but 2 isn't necessary as you're not relying on Eldritch Blast damage. If you go Sorcerer 18, you want your other 2 levels to be something else than Warlock, like a Cleric (e.g. Tempest) or Paladin.

Divine Souls are usually more support-oriented, but can be blasters too when you want to utilize non-elemental damage spells. If you want to improve that base, you can take 1-3 levels in other classes, e.g. Cleric (Life) for heavy armor & healing as a support DS, or Wizard for rituals & familiar & subclass bonus (Divination, Evocation, War).

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Okay, so I've gotten into 5e about a year ago after playing a lot of pathfinder, where I basically exclusively played magus, who could both cast a spell and attack as an action, meaning at level 2 (?, Not sure 100%), they could use another ability, spell strike, allowing them to deliver touch spells via weapon attack, attacking two times per turn and cast a touch spell. I found this extremely fun.

In 5e, I initially saw the eldritch Knight and thought I found exactly what I wanted, but in practice, it just felt like a fighter with shield and some other useless spells. I ended up just playing "I attack him with my longsword" every round

After this, the DM let me switch to a sorcerer, and I also ran a wizard in a different game with the same DM. On these forums people seem to play a lot more wizard and think the sorcerer is weak because the wizard has more spells known that the sorcerer lacks, but having played both classes, I feel more like the wizard lacks metamagic a lot more than the sorcerer lacks versatility.

In a totally separate campaign, my goblin paladin 2/ sorcerer 3 just died in a very poorly calculated assassination attempt after getting shot by 30 crossbow bolts, and that was the most fun character I've ever played. I'm not sure if I want to just play aNOTHER sorcerer just because I keep coming back each week with different sorcerers, so

(Using standard array, any race, any books, no homebrew)

TL:DR - what character can I play that can
1. Cast spells and fight in melee simultaneously
2. Deal nova damage (smite, sneak attack, ???)
3. Tank (yes, I play exclusively squishy casters and tank. I don't care about saves or HP, shield + good ac is good enough for me.)

Alternatively,
What multiclasses work with sorcerer? Already tried sorcadin and sorc/rogue

First off, most people on the forums (here or others) have a weird mindset on how games go. They have sacred cows and don't see just how amazing the Sorcerer (metamagic) really is. Subtle Spell, Empower, and Careful spell are all overlooked a lot. Subtle is one of the most broken features in the entire game due to how versitile it makes the Sorcerer in combat, exploration, and social situations.

As for your questions...

Not many characters can simultaneously cast and fight. They can do one or the other in a given round, have a limited resource, or gets a feature way too late... But generally you won't find a Magus character (sadly).

As for Sorcerer multiclassing, the absolute best is gonna be Rogue. Cunning Action, Uncanny Dodge, and Expertise on a Sorcerer is pure gold. These features are equal to or better than some spells the sorcerer would take. Uncanny Dodge makes you a beefcake. The subclasses are some of the best. Swashbuckler has some good synergy but there are many other options.

Chaos Sorcerer works well with a Paladin, weirdly enough.

[Fryy]

What's the main benefit from a 2 level warlock dip? I'll be taking at most 1 short rest / session with long rests between every session

1. AC: Medium armor and shield proficiency, upgradable with +1/+2/+3 magic versions.
2. Reliable Offense at zero spell slot cost: Eldritch Blast / Agonizing Blast.

How about Hexblade 2 / Lore Bard X with Crossbow Expert? Make Eldritch Blast your melee attack instead of a weapon. Bard would be a departure from Sorcerer but still an interesting full-caster.

[kazaryu]

TL:DR - what character can I play that can
1. Cast spells and fight in melee simultaneously
2. Deal nova damage (smite, sneak attack, ???)
3. Tank (yes, I play exclusively squishy casters and tank. I don't care about saves or HP, shield + good ac is good enough for me.)



So, as far as fighting in melee and casting spells, simply put, sorcerer is essentially the only one (or something with a sorcerer multiclass). Because they can quicken.

However so long as you're ok not casting on the same turn as making an attack action, bladesinger is a solid option. Int bonus to AC on top of some leather armor (or mage armor) and youre pushing 18 ac out the gate (with standard array, higher if you rolled well). Fromg theres its not all that hard to consistently sit at 20 AC after a few levels (leather armor +20 int/16dex) or more realsistically magearmor +18in/16dex. Since ya know..asi's.

[JellyPooga]

As for Sorcerer multiclassing, the absolute best is gonna be Rogue. Cunning Action, Uncanny Dodge, and Expertise on a Sorcerer is pure gold. These features are equal to or better than some spells the sorcerer would take. Uncanny Dodge makes you a beefcake. The subclasses are some of the best. Swashbuckler has some good synergy but there are many other options.

I was going to say this exact thing. Rogues get a lot of leeway in the action economy and are remarkably tanky, straight out of the box, let alone if you build for it. On top of that, they have a lot of options, tactically and are a lot of fun to play.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I was going to say this exact thing. Rogues get a lot of leeway in the action economy and are remarkably tanky, straight out of the box, let alone if you build for it. On top of that, they have a lot of options, tactically and are a lot of fun to play.

The Rogue is the defacto best class in the PHB on a pure design standpoint. It's got a focus, it's got options all three legs of the game, it has action economy usage... Any class can multiclass with this class and come out better. Barbarian? Druid? Warlock? Wizard? Cleric? Monk? All better with a splash of rogue. Assassin is the weakest subclass for the Rogue, IIRC, but even that subclass is better than some others get.

[JellyPooga]

The Rogue is the defacto best class in the PHB on a pure design standpoint.

I couldn't agree more. Rogue might not be the most powerful class (though it makes a damned good go of it), but it is definitely among the best, if not the best, designed. Other Classes could take lessons from the Rogues progression in almost every factor of play. The fact that just about everybody benefits significantly from a little splash of Rogue is proof enough of its elegance.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I couldn't agree more. Rogue might not be the most powerful class (though it makes a damned good go of it), but it is definitely among the best, if not the best, designed. Other Classes could take lessons from the Rogues progression in almost every factor of play. The fact that just about everybody benefits significantly from a little splash of Rogue is proof enough of its elegance.

This is actually wrong, well, at least when you look at the Rogue with allies and not fighting by itself. The Rogue is the most powerful class, well one of them, because of the role it fills.

The Rogue is meant to sneak attack. To jump between targets and deal the final blow. The Rogue is meant to be the perfect killing machine.

The Rogue is a kill steal. In this role, they're a team player. A lot of people take offense to kill stealing, but that's 100% the point of sneak attack (and why it comes from a long line of backstabbing fluff). A Rogue is your best friend when they finish off a target and nothing can finish off a target like a rogue.

The other classes that are weapon uses are typically stuck with melee or ranged, depending on their options. If they try to mix it up, they lose out on their damage. Rogue? Melee or ranged, they don't care. Want to have 13 or 14 strength and out wrestle everything short of a high level Barbarian? Expertise Athletics. Want to help your allies, at will? Bonus Action help.

Versatility is king and king means power.

I know you probably meant direct damage but if it was better at direct damage, it would lose out on other cool stuff. Look at how devoid of cool things the fighter is. At least the Barbarian gets some cool stuff. It not having more direct damage is what allowed it to be such a powerful class.

You are correct that other classes could take lessons from the rogue and the alternative class fearure UA seemed to have done this a bit (I think it gave the wizard expertise in Arcana... Something I've called for since 2013 ish).

The Rogue is the wizard of non-casters. Everyone compares the fighter to the wizard but the fighter doesn't hold a candle to the rogue.

[bendking]

How optimized do you want the build to be? Answers vary depending on your answer to this.

For example, Arcane Trickster is quite cool and gishy, but if you want to be highly optimized Rogue won't be in the build.

[Dankus Memakus]

Cleric, specially Tempest domain.

Heavy armor, proficient in martial weapons, damaging lightning spells, amazing channel divinity.

I came here to say this as well

[MrStabby]

So it sounds like you and I have some similar tastes. So a few things that I like:

Order Cleric:

From level 1 you get to cast spells and fight... albeit through other people. Still multiple things in a round.
Level 6 gets you bonus action casting for some spells. Your heavy armour lets you throw yourself into the front lines


Rogue
From level 2 you get cunning action... this lets you do more things in a turn. You get a nice balance of different tools. You fall behind a bit at higher levels though but 5-9 is OK.

Valor bard
So no great bonus actions or reactions - at least until you get to high levels. What you do get is a nice fun balance between martial prowess, control spells, and utility.


There is no reason you can multiclass a bunch of these together as well.

[Cheesegear]

TL:DR - what character can I play that can
1. Cast spells and fight in melee simultaneously
2. Deal nova damage (smite, sneak attack, ???)
3. Tank (yes, I play exclusively squishy casters and tank. I don't care about saves or HP, shield + good ac is good enough for me.)

Fighter - Eldritch Knight.


What multiclasses work with sorcerer? Already tried sorcadin and sorc/rogue

I like Tempest Cleric. Automatically roll max damage on Thunder/Lightning spells starting from level 2.
The Cleric's Lightning/Thunder spell selection sucks. Which is why you need to pick up a different spell list (e.g; Sorcerer). High Elf Cantrip for Shocking Grasp also works.

[sleepyhead]

If unearthed arcana is allowed I'd suggest taking a look at the Stone Sorcery subclass. It gives you smites, ac, and extra HP and you could also multiclass into forge cleric for heavy armor prof and more support spells. I'd also recommend playing a hill dwarf for that extra bit of health every level.

[Bobthewizard]

Here are my recommendations for gishes from most martial to most magical:

1. straight Vengeance Paladin (my favorite Oath spells)
2. Sorcadin (which you just played)
3. Hexblade with pact of the blade. Either stay hexblade or switch to sorcerer after getting thirsting blade at 5.
4. One or two level Hexblade dip on a swords bard.
5. Arcana Cleric with Booming Blade (from Ludic Savant)
6. UA Stone Sorcerer - 13AC +1hp/level and shield proficiency. Good HP and AC with full casting progression.
7a. Bladesinger (not my favorite though due to poor AC when not using bladesong)
7b. Ludic Savant's Hobgoblin Iron Wizard.
7c. Mark of Warding Dwarf Abjuration Wizard using Armor of Agathys and Arcane Ward.

I don't like Eldritch knights or Arcane Tricksters. As 1/3 casters, their spells just come too late for me. I don't like adding rogue to spell casters because while cunning action is amazing, I hate pushing back spell progression. Playing at level 3 and 5 when you are behind spell casting levels is no fun for me. And the rogue's best damage ability is not very effective on just a dip. Paladin and hexblade are much better dips for casters.

[jaappleton]

This might require expertise somehow in Deception, but its not necessary.

Your Sorcerous Origin is Divine Soul.

But you're not religious.... at all.

You're a member of the Prophets for Profit, problems solvers who roam the land in the name of their God, taking tribute in exchange for solving their issues.

But there is no God.

Its a complete and total scam. You're a charlatan, a snake oil salesman, an infomercial sales pitch guy trying to swindle people out of their money on the promise you can use your 'Divine Powers' to solve what woes them.

[SquirtleSquad]

How optimized do you want the build to be? Answers vary depending on your answer to this.

For example, Arcane Trickster is quite cool and gishy, but if you want to be highly optimized Rogue won't be in the build.

Well, i tend to either optimize my builds quite a bit, unless there's something particularly cool about it (wielding a large sized bastard sword in PF, for example.)

Speaking of large sized bastard swords, I was thinking about trying either GWM or xbow expert in one way or another but couldn't quite fit it into a straight sorc or sorcadin build.

Maybe I could go order cleric 1 / Divine soul 4 😁

[SquirtleSquad]

Fighter - Eldritch Knight.



I like Tempest Cleric. Automatically roll max damage on Thunder/Lightning spells starting from level 2.
The Cleric's Lightning/Thunder spell selection sucks. Which is why you need to pick up a different spell list (e.g; Sorcerer). High Elf Cantrip for Shocking Grasp also works.

I'm very disappointed in eldritch Knight :(

It's just a fighter that can't fight and a wizard that can't cast spells. Other fighters would be adding their manuvers or abilities and whatnot to damage while I would just have extra attack and some first level spells whereas a wizard could cast fireball and a sorcerer could cast fireball AND gfb

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I'm very disappointed in eldritch Knight :(

It's just a fighter that can't fight and a wizard that can't cast spells. Other fighters would be adding their manuvers or abilities and whatnot to damage while I would just have extra attack and some first level spells whereas a wizard could cast fireball and a sorcerer could cast fireball AND gfb

Eldritch Knight can fight, it's one of the better damage dealers. Slap a bow on them and go to town.

Personally, I prefer the "sword and sorcerery" and not the "sword or sorcery" that we got.

Eldritch Knight needs a redesign but it isn't bad at killing things and gets some utility. I would say it's the best PHB subclass the fighter has as the Champion is just a bad subclass at 7 and 10 and Battle Master is just a really bad caster.

[nickl_2000]

I'm very disappointed in eldritch Knight :(

It's just a fighter that can't fight and a wizard that can't cast spells. Other fighters would be adding their manuvers or abilities and whatnot to damage while I would just have extra attack and some first level spells whereas a wizard could cast fireball and a sorcerer could cast fireball AND gfb

I'm surprised at this. In a previous campaign we have a Dex based EK who was a monster on the battlefield. His AC was amazingly high, with barely anyone able to hit him and he dealt some significant burst damage. It was a really, really effective character.

[SquirtleSquad]

Eldritch Knight can fight, it's one of the better damage dealers. Slap a bow on them and go to town.

Personally, I prefer the "sword and sorcerery" and not the "sword or sorcery" that we got.

Eldritch Knight needs a redesign but it isn't bad at killing things and gets some utility. I would say it's the best PHB subclass the fighter has as the Champion is just a bad subclass at 7 and 10 and Battle Master is just a really bad caster.

Personally I don't like using bows that much, especially on a fighter. Isn't the point of eldritch knight to be blasting with one hand and slashing away with the other? It just doesn't accomplish that. Also, I'd be level 5, so only 1st level spells

(Reason I don't like bows - I love charging in and being reckless in melee, but I need my spellcasting fix) crossbow expert I think would be fun because you could use shadowblade + crossbow

[nickl_2000]

Personally I don't like using bows that much, especially on a fighter. Isn't the point of eldritch knight to be blasting with one hand and slashing away with the other? It just doesn't accomplish that. Also, I'd be level 5, so only 1st level spells

Is Unearthed Arcana allowed for you? The stone sorcerer sounds like it would be exactly in your wheelhouse.


If not, a Hexblade 2/Sorcerer X is a pretty effective melee character as well. You can focus on charisma to attack with, using Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade for damage, get hex smites, cast with sorcerer spells.

[ZorroGames]

I'm very disappointed in eldritch Knight :(

It's just a fighter that can't fight and a wizard that can't cast spells. Other fighters would be adding their manuvers or abilities and whatnot to damage while I would just have extra attack and some first level spells whereas a wizard could cast fireball and a sorcerer could cast fireball AND gfb

TBH my one Eldritch Knight (start at 5 for DMM) experience was similar but partly to party mix (Wizard/Sorc MC spells, XBE and SS VHuman, etc., that kind of mix,) and size (8-10 players on any given night) I felt like the afterthought player (there was a HD Cleric with a Dex of 8 also so we vied the next to last to act ribbon.)

I think AT requires a DM willing to work with, not nerf, illusions.

If I roll played more than role played I think I would have less fun/options with many classes.

[micahaphone]

I really think you should take another look at cleric - the classic cleric damage move is to cast Spirit Guardians and wade into the thick of battle, and use your bonus action on Spiritual Weapon. You can put some surprising damage out while charging headfirst in full plate armor. Check out Forge domain for some good fire spells, great perks with free +1 weapon or armor, and fire resistance. Or if you really need to be able to cast Fireball, Light cleric will still have you in medium armor, just requiring you to put a 14 into dex.

[Asmotherion]

Okay, so I've gotten into 5e about a year ago after playing a lot of pathfinder, where I basically exclusively played magus, who could both cast a spell and attack as an action, meaning at level 2 (?, Not sure 100%), they could use another ability, spell strike, allowing them to deliver touch spells via weapon attack, attacking two times per turn and cast a touch spell. I found this extremely fun.

In 5e, I initially saw the eldritch Knight and thought I found exactly what I wanted, but in practice, it just felt like a fighter with shield and some other useless spells. I ended up just playing "I attack him with my longsword" every round

After this, the DM let me switch to a sorcerer, and I also ran a wizard in a different game with the same DM. On these forums people seem to play a lot more wizard and think the sorcerer is weak because the wizard has more spells known that the sorcerer lacks, but having played both classes, I feel more like the wizard lacks metamagic a lot more than the sorcerer lacks versatility.

In a totally separate campaign, my goblin paladin 2/ sorcerer 3 just died in a very poorly calculated assassination attempt after getting shot by 30 crossbow bolts, and that was the most fun character I've ever played. I'm not sure if I want to just play aNOTHER sorcerer just because I keep coming back each week with different sorcerers, so

(Using standard array, any race, any books, no homebrew)

TL:DR - what character can I play that can
1. Cast spells and fight in melee simultaneously
2. Deal nova damage (smite, sneak attack, ???)
3. Tank (yes, I play exclusively squishy casters and tank. I don't care about saves or HP, shield + good ac is good enough for me.)

Alternatively,
What multiclasses work with sorcerer? Already tried sorcadin and sorc/rogue
Pal 6-Warlok (Hexblade Optimally) 5-Sor (Divine Soul Optimally) 9 is a melee beast build that only requires a great Cha score.

[ZorroGames]

OP,

How likely are you to reach level 20 with this character in your campaign?

[bendking]

Here are my recommendations for gishes from most martial to most magical:

1. straight Vengeance Paladin (my favorite Oath spells)
2. Sorcadin (which you just played)
3. Hexblade with pact of the blade. Either stay hexblade or switch to sorcerer after getting thirsting blade at 5.
4. One or two level Hexblade dip on a swords bard.
5. Arcana Cleric with Booming Blade (from Ludic Savant)
6. UA Stone Sorcerer - 13AC +1hp/level and shield proficiency. Good HP and AC with full casting progression.
7a. Bladesinger (not my favorite though due to poor AC when not using bladesong)
7b. Ludic Savant's Hobgoblin Iron Wizard.
7c. Mark of Warding Dwarf Abjuration Wizard using Armor of Agathys and Arcane Ward.

I don't like Eldritch knights or Arcane Tricksters. As 1/3 casters, their spells just come too late for me. I don't like adding rogue to spell casters because while cunning action is amazing, I hate pushing back spell progression. Playing at level 3 and 5 when you are behind spell casting levels is no fun for me. And the rogue's best damage ability is not very effective on just a dip. Paladin and hexblade are much better dips for casters.

I second this list, though I heavily disagree with Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters, as they're both the best in their class IMO (EK less so, since the competition is Battle Master and Samurai).
Other than that, OP, I would suggest you choose one of these options or Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Knight.
Regarding those, you seem to not have grasped the aim of these classes. They aren't meant to blast or be casters at all. The casting merely complements what they were already doing quite well, and it does so spectacularly: EK is extremely tanky due to Shield, Warding Wind, etc. AT can use Booming Blade to pile on more damage, and Find Familiar to get almost at-will advantage on his attacks. Combined with Elven Accuracy and Sentinel + Mirror Image you can do some great damage (better than any other Rogue, still not Fighter levels though).

[JellyPooga]

I second this list, though I heavily disagree with Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters, as they're both the best in their class IMO (EK less so, since the competition is Battle Master and Samurai).
Other than that, OP, I would suggest you choose one of these options or Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Knight.
Regarding those, you seem to not have grasped the aim of these classes. They aren't meant to blast or be casters at all. The casting merely complements what they were already doing quite well, and it does so spectacularly: EK is extremely tanky due to Shield, Warding Wind, etc. AT can use Booming Blade to pile on more damage, and Find Familiar to get almost at-will advantage on his attacks. Combined with Elven Accuracy and Sentinel + Mirror Image you can do some great damage (better than any other Rogue, still not Fighter levels though).

It's worth pointing out that Arcane Trickster is arguably the better tank than the Fighter. Between the highly defensive illusion spells (Blur, Mirror Image, Invisibility), Uncanny Dodge, Evasion and Cunning Action to be precisely where they need to be, an AT has not only the durability and AC to survive the front lines, but is also a credible off-turn threat due to Sneak Attack, such that they cannot be ignored like a Fighter can. A Rogues Opportunity Attack is much more of a threat than a Fighters. Add Sentinel and it gives an opponent two choices; attack the Rogue to little effect due to Uncanny Dodge or attack the Rogues ally and eat a Sneak Attack.

Rogues are the unsung Tanks of 5ed; Barbarians are great damage soaks, Fighters have good AC and damage, Paladins have insane threat level, but only the Rogue combines all of these in a single resourceless package that just keeps on going without worrying about Rage expiring, expending all your spell slots on minor foes or the like.

[Bobthewizard]

I second this list, though I heavily disagree with Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters, as they're both the best in their class IMO (EK less so, since the competition is Battle Master and Samurai).

I think EK and AT are both effective subclasses, they are just not what I would play if I want to play a gish. They just take too long for the magic to come online. Getting second level spells at level 7 is just so late. I don't play a lot of high level games, we usually start at level 1 and then move on to a new adventure before we get to level 10.


It's worth pointing out that Arcane Trickster is arguably the better tank than the Fighter. Between the highly defensive illusion spells (Blur, Mirror Image, Invisibility), Uncanny Dodge, Evasion and Cunning Action to be precisely where they need to be, an AT has not only the durability and AC to survive the front lines, but is also a credible off-turn threat due to Sneak Attack, such that they cannot be ignored like a Fighter can. A Rogues Opportunity Attack is much more of a threat than a Fighters. Add Sentinel and it gives an opponent two choices; attack the Rogue to little effect due to Uncanny Dodge or attack the Rogues ally and eat a Sneak Attack.

Rogues are the unsung Tanks of 5ed; Barbarians are great damage soaks, Fighters have good AC and damage, Paladins have insane threat level, but only the Rogue combines all of these in a single resourceless package that just keeps on going without worrying about Rage expiring, expending all your spell slots on minor foes or the like.

I'm always looking to multiclass my rogues. This makes me want to stay with one and see what happens. Thanks.

[bendking]

I think EK and AT are both effective subclasses, they are just not what I would play if I want to play a gish. They just take too long for the magic to come online. Getting second level spells at level 7 is just so late. I don't play a lot of high level games, we usually start at level 1 and then move on to a new adventure before we get to level 10.

Sure, they aren't actual gishes. They're 1/3 casters, not 1/2.
They are still highly effective and gish-y, but you won't get the Spellsword feel out of them.


It's worth pointing out that Arcane Trickster is arguably the better tank than the Fighter. Between the highly defensive illusion spells (Blur, Mirror Image, Invisibility), Uncanny Dodge, Evasion and Cunning Action to be precisely where they need to be, an AT has not only the durability and AC to survive the front lines, but is also a credible off-turn threat due to Sneak Attack, such that they cannot be ignored like a Fighter can. A Rogues Opportunity Attack is much more of a threat than a Fighters. Add Sentinel and it gives an opponent two choices; attack the Rogue to little effect due to Uncanny Dodge or attack the Rogues ally and eat a Sneak Attack.

Rogues are the unsung Tanks of 5ed; Barbarians are great damage soaks, Fighters have good AC and damage, Paladins have insane threat level, but only the Rogue combines all of these in a single resourceless package that just keeps on going without worrying about Rage expiring, expending all your spell slots on minor foes or the like.

I wouldn't say Rogues are better tanks than Fighters. Especially not better than an EK. Their AC is too lacking since they can't use a shield. That said, a Fighter dip is highly effective for Arcane Tricksters: Grab Defense Fighting Style and shield prof. for a total of 3 AC. Now you can tank.

Also, since Sentinel works in conjunction with Mirror Image, so you can get off-turn sneak attacks even if the enemy chooses to attack you instead of your enemy. You will be sacrificing Uncanny Dodge, but it's totally worth it. It's also your only way of keeping up in DPR with Fighters.

EDIT: Just in general, since we're on the topic, the way I would build an Arcane Trickster would be one of two ways:
AT 10 --> Fighter 1 --> War Wizard 9
AT 9 -- > Bladesinger 11

Always get Elven Accuracy at 4th and Sentinel at 8th.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Here are my recommendations for gishes from most martial to most magical:

1. straight Vengeance Paladin (my favorite Oath spells)
2. Sorcadin (which you just played)
3. Hexblade with pact of the blade. Either stay hexblade or switch to sorcerer after getting thirsting blade at 5.
4. One or two level Hexblade dip on a swords bard.
5. Arcana Cleric with Booming Blade (from Ludic Savant)
6. UA Stone Sorcerer - 13AC +1hp/level and shield proficiency. Good HP and AC with full casting progression.
7a. Bladesinger (not my favorite though due to poor AC when not using bladesong)
7b. Ludic Savant's Hobgoblin Iron Wizard.
7c. Mark of Warding Dwarf Abjuration Wizard using Armor of Agathys and Arcane Ward.

I don't like Eldritch knights or Arcane Tricksters. As 1/3 casters, their spells just come too late for me. I don't like adding rogue to spell casters because while cunning action is amazing, I hate pushing back spell progression. Playing at level 3 and 5 when you are behind spell casting levels is no fun for me. And the rogue's best damage ability is not very effective on just a dip. Paladin and hexblade are much better dips for casters.

So, OK. I get why you left it off the list. But to answer the OP's question about someone who can actually cast a (leveled) spell and still make a weapon attack, the valor bard does exist. At 14th level, that is. Where it'll do basically laughable damage with that weapon attack.

So...maybe at the very bottom of the list?

[JellyPooga]

I wouldn't say Rogues are better tanks than Fighters. Especially not better than an EK. Their AC is too lacking since they can't use a shield. That said, a Fighter dip is highly effective for Arcane Tricksters: Grab Defense Fighting Style and shield prof. for a total of 3 AC. Now you can tank.

Also, since Sentinel works in conjunction with Mirror Image, so you can get off-turn sneak attacks even if the enemy chooses to attack you instead of your enemy. You will be sacrificing Uncanny Dodge, but it's totally worth it. It's also your only way of keeping up in DPR with Fighters.

EDIT: Just in general, since we're on the topic, the way I would build an Arcane Trickster would be one of two ways:
AT 10 --> Fighter 1 --> War Wizard 9
AT 9 -- > Bladesinger 11

Always get Elven Accuracy at 4th and Sentinel at 8th.

AT really only lags a little behind EK in terms of AC, if you consider AC to be "the ability to not be hit" rather than strictly the numeric figure. Shield proficiency, or lack thereof, is really the biggest downside a pure Rogue has and that can be rectified with either a single level dip or a feat, as you say.

As I said in the post you responded to, though, being a Tank is more than the ability to not get hit, or absorb damage, or indeed to deal it. It's all three. In fact it's all three combined with a certain degree of control elements (which is why Sentinel is essential to any Tank build). EK has among the best AC in the game, but zero native damage reduction and their OA's are laughable compared to a Rogues or Paladins. Hell, even the Ranger has better OA's than a Fighter. This makes the Fighter an insignificant threat for drawing aggro and flat out bad at their job tryjng to Tank against things that either don't target AC or have a high enough to-hit mod that AC is irrelevant.

Compare this to the Rogue who can draw aggro just by being a credible threat with OA's (Sneak Attack), can do it whilst weathering friendly fire from AoE (Evasion), has native Damage reduction (Uncanny Dodge) and has a higher degree of control elements through Cunning Action (yes, mobility is a control element; being the best Tank on the planet is useless if you're in the wrong place...Tanking is all about position). That's all before considering subclass.

Myself, if I'm building an Arcane Trickster I like to splash a little Ranger instead of Fighter. It takes a small investment in Wisdom (and what Rogue worth his salt doesn't invest in Wisdom?), but it pays dividends in what you get; you get the same Med.Armour + Shield and Martial Weapon prof you'd get from Fighter, as well as a Fighting Style, but you also get an extra skill (not to be sniffed at), expanded spell list and slightly improved caster level, some other Ranger-y goodness (versatility!) and if you go as far as lvl.3 for Hunter, an additional attack. That's before considering Revised Ranger cheese (which, to be fair, I have no idea about; see my sig.). For a dip, Ranger offers a lot more IMO than Fighter.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Personally I don't like using bows that much, especially on a fighter. Isn't the point of eldritch knight to be blasting with one hand and slashing away with the other? It just doesn't accomplish that. Also, I'd be level 5, so only 1st level spells

(Reason I don't like bows - I love charging in and being reckless in melee, but I need my spellcasting fix) crossbow expert I think would be fun because you could use shadowblade + crossbow

Well, just because you don't like bows doesn't mean that the class/subclass is bad.

The point of the EK is to be a fighter with a splash a magic, it really isn't a Magus (pathfinder) or a blaster. You can get some blasty spells that deal half damage on a save... But that isn't exactly the core EK mechanics that we are given.

The EK works well in melee too, my point about bows was IIRC that's one of more high damaging builds out there.

EK just comes on too late for my taste.

[MrStabby]

If you want the sword in one hand, blasting away with spells in the other feel... then Hexblade is a good shout. Add in a Ravnica background for the type of spells you want. Borros gives scorching ray which is quite blasty, Gruul gets shatter, conjure barrage and destructive wave. Rakdos gets a bit of a mix of blasting and mind affecting spells.

With this you get two attacks, great nova potential, almost full spellcasting, invocations added to season.

[Merudo]

The Rogue is the defacto best class in the PHB on a pure design standpoint.


Rogue might not be the most powerful class (though it makes a damned good go of it), but it is definitely among the best, if not the best, designed.

Interestingly, I believe the Rogue is one of the worst designed classes, at least for combat.

Without feats, Rogues are essentially crappy Fighters: just like Fighters, they take the Attack action a lot, only they do worse damage, and have worse defenses.

The way the Rogue can be redeemed in combat is by taking advantage of optimizer tricks to let the Rogue do sneak attacks twice in a round. The Sentinel allows the Rogue to do sneak attacks on the enemy's turn, and a number of spells & abilities (Haste, Voice of Authority, Dissonant Whispers, etc) also let you do so.

For a newbie who doesn't these tricks, the class will be quite underwhelming in combat.

That's bad design.

[Teaguethebean]

For a newbie who doesn't these tricks, the class will be quite underwhelming in combat.

That's bad design.

I feel for a newby if feats don't come into play you will see very little difference as at lv5 when the "big gap" happens rogues do 19 damage with a Rapier and greatsword fighters do 24.66 while 5 damage is a gap the rogue has so many other goodies than damage. I fully support optimising the rogue for more damage but it is a hardly a deal breaker for a newby.

[SquirtleSquad]

OP,

How likely are you to reach level 20 with this character in your campaign?

0% chance. It's a drop in league with a lot of uncertainty. Might not even get the same DM, but also might get a DM running level 17+

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Interestingly, I believe the Rogue is one of the worst designed classes, at least for combat.

Without feats, Rogues are essentially crappy Fighters: just like Fighters, they take the Attack action a lot, only they do worse damage, and have worse defenses.

The way the Rogue can be redeemed in combat is by taking advantage of optimizer tricks to let the Rogue do sneak attacks twice in a round. The Sentinel allows the Rogue to do sneak attacks on the enemy's turn, and a number of spells & abilities (Haste, Voice of Authority, Dissonant Whispers, etc) also let you do so.

For a newbie who doesn't these tricks, the class will be quite underwhelming in combat.

That's bad design.

What class are you looking at? Seriously. Maybe if combat is just *move to the enemy, stand still, slug fest* I could see this... No not even then as the rogue gets way too many great options to deal with it compared to the fighter.

The fighter does 1 thing and needs way more feat support (thus why they get more feats). Feats are nice on the rogue but are the last thing needed. The fighter needs so much feat support to make an entire character that it isn't funny.

A majority of what gets praised by the rogue is basic tactics and stuff the class lays out for you. People like to optimize for damage, but that's actually causing the rogue to be less optimized. Rogue doesn't meed to do the most damage, the rogue sees something that had 60% of its HP taken away, so the rogue easily takes away the other 40%.

Want a grappler/shover? The Rogue, with 13 strength, is going to match or beat a fighter due expertise. The rogue gets to ignore ability scores. Reliable Talent + expertise = what's a fighter?

The rogue gets a bonus action help with a subclass. At range! This feature is so amazing. Absolutely grade A, fighter eat your heart out , amazing. Your allies will love you.

The Rogue is beefy and has options to not take the damage to begin with. Bonus Action Dash or Disengage and uncanny dodge synergize so well.

Use Magic Device on a thief. Nothing. Absolutely nothinf the fighter gets is so absolutely overwhelming in combat as that feature. Even direct damage isn't touching UMD.

I think your problem is that you may be playing the Rogue like a barbarian or fighter, moving up to an enemy and going one - on -one.

Damage isn't the only thing in combat, if it was, the Wizard wouldn't be considered as powerful as it is.

Direct damage is so overrated in 5e.

[Theaitetos]

0% chance. It's a drop in league with a lot of uncertainty. Might not even get the same DM, but also might get a DM running level 17+

"A drop in league"? Are you talking about Adventurer's League here? That would be something you should tell everyone, because AL has important rules like PHB+1 to adhere to, severely restricting options for builds. For example, when playing AL, then only those who choose SCAG as their "+1" can get the Booming Blade & Green-Flame Blade cantrips.

In that case I'd say go with an Arcana Cleric build; maybe – only maybe – a Tempest Cleric / Storm Sorcerer, which should work fine for your demands, even without the crucial Elemental Spell metamagic from UA:CFV.

But yeah, in the case of AL, the Arcana Cleric is really your best option. I'd choose the Protector Aasimar (CHA+2, WIS+1) over the Variant Human (any 2 stats +1, feat) as race though, because FLYING is just awesome.

[Merudo]

People like to optimize for damage, but that's actually causing the rogue to be less optimized.

I agree damage is not everything, but there is not much else the Rogue can do in combat.



Want a grappler/shover? The Rogue, with 13 strength, is going to match or beat a fighter due expertise. The rogue gets to ignore ability scores. Reliable Talent + expertise = what's a fighter?

Pretty much every STR based Fighter is going to get proficiency in Athletics, it is probably the best skill in the game after Perception.

Fighter will match the Rogue for the roll, but the Fighter will be at least twice as good as the Rogue because the Fighter can grap/shove two or more times per turn while the Rogue can only do it once.



The rogue gets a bonus action help with a subclass. At range! This feature is so amazing. Absolutely grade A, fighter eat your heart out , amazing. Your allies will love you.


It's decent but nothing amazing. Remember you are only giving advantage on a single attack, and at level 5-9 most martials have 2, if not 3 attacks per turn.



The Rogue is beefy and has options to not take the damage to begin with. Bonus Action Dash or Disengage and uncanny dodge synergize so well.


Which doesn't help the other martials hold the line at all. A Fighter would be more useful as they'd help defend the squishy spellcasters instead of running away every turn.



Use Magic Device on a thief. Nothing. Absolutely nothinf the fighter gets is so absolutely overwhelming in combat as that feature. Even direct damage isn't touching UMD.

Agreed, Magic Device is amazing. Sadly most Thief will never reach level 13.



I think your problem is that you may be playing the Rogue like a barbarian or fighter, moving up to an enemy and going one - on -one.

Damage isn't the only thing in combat, if it was, the Wizard wouldn't be considered as powerful as it is.

Direct damage is so overrated in 5e.

The problem is that beside a few subclass abilities, the Rogue can really only do damage. And the damage it does, is underwhelming.

[Cheesegear]

It's just a fighter that can't fight and a wizard that can't cast spells.

...No ****. :smallmad:
The point of the class is that you do both, not one or the other.

Player: I'm a Wizard! I cast spells, but I can't fight.
DM: ...The hostile sees the primary caster as the greatest threat, Disengages as a bonus action, moves around the Tank, and spikes you for...45 damage.
Wizard: ...What? Uhh...Sure wish my AC was higher than Mage Armour, and that I had more than 35 HPs. I'm down.

My issue is that because of its focus on Abjuration and Evocation, the Eldritch Knight misses out on several really good debuffs. But then, if it could debuff its own opponents and attack the same, it'd be broken, and I definitely understand why its the way it is.

Still, you're a Fighter who can open every combat with Fireball, as opposed to 'I throw a Spear with Disadvantage?'

[JellyPooga]

Interestingly, I believe the Rogue is one of the worst designed classes, at least for combat.

Without feats, Rogues are essentially crappy Fighters: just like Fighters, they take the Attack action a lot, only they do worse damage, and have worse defenses.

One feature proves you wrong and it's the one feature that really defines the Rogue. It's not Sneak Attack, nor is it Expertise or even higher level goodies like Uncanny Dodge or Evasion. It's Cunning Action. More than any other feature, CA makes combat far more interesting for any Rogue than any slugger of a Fighter. One innocuous feature that changes the lay of the battlefield entirely. Yes, it can be a little tricky discovering its potential, but that isn't bad design; having a learning curve keeps a Class interesting and engaging (unlike, say, a Fighter who really only gets better at doing one thing).

Cunning Action really does change the game. It gives the Rogue the ability to kite, to grapple+drag, to hit the enemy where it really hurts, to evade foes, to snipe and relocate. And more. Not only that, but it gets better as you increase in level; giving a Fighter +10ft speed just gives him +10ft speed. Give a Rogue +10ft speed and that becomes +20ft speed, or +30ft if you really need it. Give a Fighter a bonus to Stealth (say, with Pass without Trace) and he'll use it and lose it, but give a Rogue that bonus and he'll use it like a weapon in combat. What's more, the Rogue can just keep on doing it, unlike (for example) Monks who might want to preserve their Ki for something else.

This isn't "optimiser tricks"...this is just how the Rogue functions and I haven't even touched on Rogue Archetypes and how they come into play to make the Rogue far more interesting, engaging in combat than any Fighter build I've seen.

[SquirtleSquad]

"A drop in league"? Are you talking about Adventurer's League here? That would be something you should tell everyone, because AL has important rules like PHB+1 to adhere to, severely restricting options for builds. For example, when playing AL, then only those who choose SCAG as their "+1" can get the Booming Blade & Green-Flame Blade cantrips.

In that case I'd say go with an Arcana Cleric build; maybe – only maybe – a Tempest Cleric / Storm Sorcerer, which should work fine for your demands, even without the crucial Elemental Spell metamagic from UA:CFV.

But yeah, in the case of AL, the Arcana Cleric is really your best option. I'd choose the Protector Aasimar (CHA+2, WIS+1) over the Variant Human (any 2 stats +1, feat) as race though, because FLYING is just awesome.

It isn't AL, it's just a drop in league. (they didn't like how restricting Al is, it's basically AL with less restrictions)

[SquirtleSquad]

...No ****. :smallmad:
The point of the class is that you do both, not one or the other.

Player: I'm a Wizard! I cast spells, but I can't fight.
DM: ...The hostile sees the primary caster as the greatest threat, Disengages as a bonus action, moves around the Tank, and spikes you for...45 damage.
Wizard: ...What? Uhh...Sure wish my AC was higher than Mage Armour, and that I had more than 35 HPs. I'm down.

My issue is that because of its focus on Abjuration and Evocation, the Eldritch Knight misses out on several really good debuffs. But then, if it could debuff its own opponents and attack the same, it'd be broken, and I definitely understand why its the way it is.

Still, you're a Fighter who can open every combat with Fireball, as opposed to 'I throw a Spear with Disadvantage?'

The first level an Ek can cast fireball is LEVEL 13. At level 13, this fighter can attack a 3 times as most likely their best option 90% of times, probably doing about 6d6 + 20ish on all hits.

A Divine soul 5 with a shadow blade cast the round before can do 2d8 fire + 2d8 psychic + Dex + cha, then quicken a lightning bolt for 8d6 more, or even attempt to paralize with hold person. They can cast shield for AC. They can cast healing word if their HP gets dire.

I just feel like at level 5, I don't want to have the choice between "I throw TWO spears at disadvantage" or "I cast magic missile!"

I'd rather chuck a guiding bolt and form ridiculous plots with quicken

Edit: also, I don't exactly blast from the back and get targeted by enemies. I generally go front lines with a sword and gfb, and TRY to tank, but the DM usually just goes something along the lines of "after attacking you once, the _______ notices your defenses are most likely too strong for him to penetrate and attacks (squishier person, mostly martials that don't have shield :D)

[Reevh]

OK, so here's my recommendation:

Wood Elf (or half-elf) Arcane Trickster/Hexblade

For the purposes of the build, I'll talk about it at level 11 (9 rogue/2 warlock), but it starts strong at low levels and only gets better over time.

Offensiveness:
At level 11, you should have Elven Accuracy and Mobile feats, and probably a 20 Dexterity. You have multiple means of gaining advantage every round. You have a familiar who can help you, or you can use a shadow blade (level 2 illusion spell) if in darkness. If you're using your shadowblade, you'll get 3 opportunities to hit and/or crit every round. The chances you'll miss are quite low, and the chances you'll crit are quite high. Because you're a rogue, your crits hurt. Bad.

So you dance into melee range, and make an Booming Blade attack with your shadow blade. If the enemy has an 18 AC, you have a 9% chance to miss and a 14.2% chance to crit, and that's a high armor opponent. If you hit, that's 2d8 (shadowblade) + 2d8 (booming blade) + 5 (Dexterity bonus) + 5d6 (sneak attack) damage for an average of 40.5 damage. If you crit, it's 4d8+4d8+5+10d6 damage, or 76 average damage. If you use your Hexblade's Curse, your crit chance mushrooms to 27.1%, and you also gain another 4 damage. You can then dance back out of melee range with impunity, because you have the mobile feat. If/when the target chases you, they then take another 3d8 thunder damage from the booming blade.

Defensiveness:
As a Hexblade Warlock, you have access to mage armor (either the spell or the invocation), a shield, and the Shield spell. So with Mage Armor, you have a 13 base AC, plus 5 from Dexterity, and 2 from your shield. You lose your offhand attack, but that's more than made up for by your Elven Accuracy advantage you should have every round. That puts you at 20 AC, baseline. Then you have 2 choices for reactions. You can cast Shield, bringing up your AC to 25, using either a rogue spell slot, or one of your two short rest warlock spell slots. Or you can uncanny dodge, reducing the damage done to you by half. In addition, you have Evasion, further reducing the danger to you from fireballs, dragons' breath, and other such Dex save effects. Finally, even if you're surrounded and low on health, you can disengage with a bonus action and dance back behind other front liners. If you're really concerned, you can even throw up Mirror Image ahead of the fight. You're ultimately quite tanky.

Utility:

You have all of the utility of a rogue, obviously, with lots of skills (especially if half-elf), expertise, and thieves tools. But you also get fun tricks such as wizard/warlock cantrips (I quite like Minor Illusion, for a rogue, making noises to distract enemies while you sneak), spells, and invocations. And because you're a rogue with 45ft of base movement, you have absurd battlefield mobility. If the big bad caster is at the back of the room, you have unprecedented ability to get to him/her in that first round and make their life pain/disturb their concentration.

[SquirtleSquad]

OK, so here's my recommendation:

Wood Elf (or half-elf) Arcane Trickster/Hexblade

For the purposes of the build, I'll talk about it at level 11 (9 rogue/2 warlock), but it starts strong at low levels and only gets better over time.

Offensiveness:
At level 11, you should have Elven Accuracy and Mobile feats, and probably a 20 Dexterity. You have multiple means of gaining advantage every round. You have a familiar who can help you, or you can use a shadow blade (level 2 illusion spell) if in darkness. If you're using your shadowblade, you'll get 3 opportunities to hit and/or crit every round. The chances you'll miss are quite low, and the chances you'll crit are quite high. Because you're a rogue, your crits hurt. Bad.

So you dance into melee range, and make an Booming Blade attack with your shadow blade. If the enemy has an 18 AC, you have a 9% chance to miss and a 14.2% chance to crit, and that's a high armor opponent. If you hit, that's 2d8 (shadowblade) + 2d8 (booming blade) + 5 (Dexterity bonus) + 5d6 (sneak attack) damage for an average of 40.5 damage. If you crit, it's 4d8+4d8+5+10d6 damage, or 76 average damage. If you use your Hexblade's Curse, your crit chance mushrooms to 27.1%, and you also gain another 4 damage. You can then dance back out of melee range with impunity, because you have the mobile feat. If/when the target chases you, they then take another 3d8 thunder damage from the booming blade.

Defensiveness:
As a Hexblade Warlock, you have access to mage armor (either the spell or the invocation), a shield, and the Shield spell. So with Mage Armor, you have a 13 base AC, plus 5 from Dexterity, and 2 from your shield. You lose your offhand attack, but that's more than made up for by your Elven Accuracy advantage you should have every round. That puts you at 20 AC, baseline. Then you have 2 choices for reactions. You can cast Shield, bringing up your AC to 25, using either a rogue spell slot, or one of your two short rest warlock spell slots. Or you can uncanny dodge, reducing the damage done to you by half. In addition, you have Evasion, further reducing the danger to you from fireballs, dragons' breath, and other such Dex save effects. Finally, even if you're surrounded and low on health, you can disengage with a bonus action and dance back behind other front liners. If you're really concerned, you can even throw up Mirror Image ahead of the fight. You're ultimately quite tanky.

Utility:

You have all of the utility of a rogue, obviously, with lots of skills (especially if half-elf), expertise, and thieves tools. But you also get fun tricks such as wizard/warlock cantrips (I quite like Minor Illusion, for a rogue, making noises to distract enemies while you sneak), spells, and invocations. And because you're a rogue with 45ft of base movement, you have absurd battlefield mobility. If the big bad caster is at the back of the room, you have unprecedented ability to get to him/her in that first round and make their life pain/disturb their concentration.

To be honest: I don't really understand what's so great about warlock other than the short rest spells back, which doesn't happen too often to me tbh, and even then, wizard gets some back! What does warlock get that makes up for its limited spells, assuming cha to blast is a must

[MrStabby]

To be honest: I don't really understand what's so great about warlock other than the short rest spells back, which doesn't happen too often to me tbh, and even then, wizard gets some back! What does warlock get that makes up for its limited spells, assuming cha to blast is a must

In general, rather than in the above build, warlocks are great for a few reasons.

They can get two attacks at level 5.

Their invocations add both utility and combat power.

Their spell power is more than a half caster of the same level.

Spells are not just slots but also what effects they add. Hex is great on a gish than can reliably get a couple of attacks and a bonus action attack. Armour of Agathys is great for those who want to throw themselves into melee.

Hexblade adds to this by making SAD gish possible, supporting weapon and medium armour proficiency and having abilities that increase nova power like hexblades curse. Hexblade, either as a major or a minor contribution, adds spells like shield and wrathful smite to support combat.

So Warlock isn't the be all and end all of being a gish but it's usually worth a look as a contribution.

Likewise, it is supported well by other classes as well. Hexblade with a dip of cleric which can give some more low level spells and heavy armour is one that I lake, for example.

[Reevh]

To be honest: I don't really understand what's so great about warlock other than the short rest spells back, which doesn't happen too often to me tbh, and even then, wizard gets some back! What does warlock get that makes up for its limited spells, assuming cha to blast is a must

Well the benefits in the build I posted above are:

The ability to use Shields.
The ability to use Level 1 Warlock Spells, including Shield and Hex (for fighting in the light without Shadow Blade).
Hexblade's Curse, which can skyrocket your crit rate up to 27% on every attack, very important for a class that uses so many dice in its damage rolls.
2 spell slots that recover on short rest, for use especially with Shield, but could be other uses too.

In this build, if you were to use Wizard instead of Hexblade, you'd be able to recover 1 spell slot once per day, rather than the 2 with every short rest you get with Hexblade. There are some benefits you could get with Bladesinging, Abjuration, or War Magic, but they don't overtake what you'd get with Hexblade. You'd lose the ability to wear a shield, and lose your Hexblade's Curse.

[Theaitetos]

To be honest: I don't really understand what's so great about warlock other than the short rest spells back, which doesn't happen too often to me tbh, and even then, wizard gets some back! What does warlock get that makes up for its limited spells, assuming cha to blast is a must

I like sorcerers. And for dipping just 1 level into Hexblade Warlock I get:
Light Armor proficiency
Medium Armor proficiency
Shield proficiency
Simple Weapons proficiency
Martial Weapons proficiency
CHA is now my weapon modifier instead of STR / DEX
Hexblade's Curse
1 short rest 1st-level spell-slot
2 cantrips, and access the strongest cantrip: Eldritch Blast
2 spells known, and access to Armor of Agathys, Hellish Rebuke, Hex


That's worth about 4 feats for a single level in Warlock. Your AC rises from a measly 12 (10 base +2 DEX) to a stunning 19 (15 medium armor +2 shield +2 DEX). I could take Mage Armor for 15 armor (13 +2 DEX), but it would cost me 1 of my precious 15 sorcerer spells known, i.e. 7% of my magic power.



Dipping 2 levels into Warlock gets me 1 additional short rest 1st-level spell-slot and 2 freakishly powerful Invocations. The invocations are divided into 4 groups:

Eldritch Blast power-ups
Agonizing Blast: +CHA modifier dmg for every beam
Eldritch Spear: range increased from 120ft to 300ft
Grasp of Hadar: move any creature 10ft closer upon hit (once per turn)
Lance of Lethargy: reduce any creature's movement speed by 10ft upon hit (once per turn)
Repelling Blast: move any creature 10ft away upon hit (unlimited per turn)

Pact Boon power-ups
Aspect of the Moon: you need no more sleep
Book of Ancient Secrets (Tome): 3 cantrips from any spell lists, ALL rituals (up to ½ warlock level)
Gift of the Ever-Living Ones (Chain): max healing gained on any dice roll (HD, spell, …)
Improved Pact Weapon (Blade): free +1 weapon, use as spellcasting focus
Voice of the Chain Master (Chain): unlimited telepathy & sense-sharing, speak through Familiar

Cast certain spells without spell-slots
Beast Speech: Speak with Animals
Eldritch Sight: Detect Magic
Fiendish Vigor: False Life
Mask of Many Faces: Disguise Self
Misty Visions: Silent Image

Special abilities
Bewitching Whispers: 2 free skills
Devil's Sight: perfect Darkvision (able to see in magic darkness)
Eyes of the Rune Keeper: perfect Reading (all languages)


I marked the invocations that are most frequently taken in dips (imo). And there are more if you go higher levels, like auto-prone Smites, Extra Attack, free Invisibility, free Teleportation, …

If you take Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast, then you're already set to deal top-tier damage for the entire game, regardless of equipment or anything else; toss in Repelling Blast and you can even move around enemies at will – any size, no save allowed!

If you take Devil's Sight then you're immune to every darkness effect. Toss in Eldritch Sight and you have perfect magic detection.

If you take Mask of Many Faces, you are already set to be an infiltrator with near perfect disguises, that can be changed at will. Slay an enemy, take his appearance. Enter the dungeon with a smaller appearance, so if you make yourself appear 1 foot shorter than you are, then you can glimpse above any obstacle without the enemy even seeing you (i.e. full cover in combat). Confuse enemies by appear as the opposite you are: when you're a squishy caster, pretend to be a hulking armor-clad goliath to avoid being attacked first; if you're a tanky dude, appear like an unarmored little "damsel-in-distress" wizard-girl to draw the enemy upon you; Tiefling → Aasimar, Dwarf → teenage Elf, INT 8 idiot → Mindflayer, smelly Barbarian → noble Lady, rich Ebeneezer Scrooge → poor Beggar, Cleric of Lolth → Cleric of Lathander, … .
Illusion spells are powerful, and infinite Disguise Self spells (without concentration!) are unlimited power.

The other spells are useful too, like Silent Image or False Life, which can be abused for the Abjuration Wizard's ward shenanigans.



Dipping 3 levels into Warlock gives you the powerful Pact Boon:
Blade is usually not that important for dips, unless you want to go SAD TWF, or get the Eldritch Armor invocation (all armor proficiency).
Tome gives you 3 cantrips of your choice (druid, cleric, wizard, bard, …) and all 1st- & 2nd-level rituals (including Find Familiar).
Chain gives you a perfect familiar: flying, invisible, intelligent, special abilities, attack capabilities, capable to use items/equpiment, ….
For example, a Chain Familiar can be an invisible, fire-immune, cold-resistant celestial Imp-Raven with a 60ft flying speed, perfect Darkvision, and Magic Resistance, who can deliver all your Touch-ranged spells (at 100ft range) or Help in combat without risking his Superior Invisibility.
The new Talisman boon isn't yet fleshed out, but it might be really worth it for other classes to get it. So far it can provide a bonus on skills you aren't proficient with (similar to the Bard's Jack of All Trades), and a bonus on saving throws you aren't proficient with (like a one-creature Bless). Can be given to others.

[MagneticKitty]

Gish is one of my favorites, so heres some ideas:

Swords or valor bard - two attacks, full spell caster

Paladin 2 (or 6 if you want 2 attacks) / whispers bard - super nova attacks with full casting to the side

Paladin / sorcerer - pick your favorite blasting sorcerer, augment attacks with smites, and blast with spells.

Warlock hexblade bladelock 6 / full charisma caster - best cantrip in game, two attacks, hex plus more spells

Non charisma:
Blade singer wizard. This is squishy, more for blasting and melee only when required

Paladin/ druid - MAD, good healer, bear smites.

Cleric - situational multi attack, advise PAM for psuedo multi. Say it with me: clerics don't have to be heal bots. Plenty of other spells, just tell your party you won't be primary healer, and have fun using other spells. Maybe grab just healing word to pick people up as a bonus action.

Ranger revised 6 / druid or cleric - mash of melee and caster, not mad, prep caster, less delayed spell casting due to half caster x caster

Barbarian 2 / moon druid x - the raging bear, turn into an animal and rage. Full caster the rest of the time.