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View Full Version : Yuan-ti's Serpent Form is kinda garbage



Greywander
2020-01-15, 03:47 AM
I was recently looking at a yuan-ti paladin build, and while reading through the section in Volo's on yuan-ti I stumbled across this gem under "Unusual Abilities" (page 98):

Shapechanger (Pureblood Only). The yuan-ti can use its action to polymorph into a Medium giant poisonous snake, or into a Large constrictor snake, or back into its true form. Its statistics are the same in each form, except for the size change noted. Any equipment it is wearing or carrying isn't transformed. It doesn't change form if it dies.
When I saw that, I thought, "Hey, that's a pretty cool and flavorful ability. I think I'd like it on this character." Now, this build is a DEX paladin, so they're not really suited to either unarmed fighting or grappling (meaning, it wouldn't be OP on my character). I don't currently have a group that I play with, but should I get the opportunity to play this character my plan was to ask the DM to work it into the story for me to get that ability at an appropriate point.

Turns out, however, that it might not be necessary to depend on the DM for a handout, as the Expanded Racial Feats supplement has a feat that gives you almost something identical:

Serpent Form
You have unlocked more of your serpentfolk heritage. You gain the following benefits:

Increase your Intelligence or Charisma score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You can use an action to polymorph into a Medium snake or back into your true form. Your statistics are the same in each form. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying isn't transformed. If you die, you stay in your current form.
While in snake form, you gain a bite attack as a natural weapon, which you can use to make unarmed strikes. If you hit with it, you deal piercing damage equal to 1d4 + your Strength modifier, instead of the bludgeoning damage normal for an unarmed strick. When you hit with a bite attack, you can choose to deal 2d6 additional poison damage to the target. Once you deal this poison damage, you can't do so again until you finish a long rest.


Neat! When so many abilities seem to be resource gated, it's refreshing to have an ability that you can use at-will without having to worry about "saving it for later". Shapechanging at will is a nice, and is sure to lead to a lot of fun RP moments that you might have missed if you were trying to conserve resources. This looks like a fun and flavorful ability, and the only reason I'm talking it up so much is because I'm about to tear it a new one.

So, I do have one question about this feat. What exactly am I supposed to do with it?
Aside from the obvious RP potential, what exactly is the purpose of the ability? What benefits does it bring to my character? Under what circumstances would I be encouraged to shapeshift into a snake? When it comes to shapeshifting abilities, I can think of three potential uses for such an ability.

Combat, e.g. using your other form's superior stats
This is bread and butter of Moon druids. Turn a squishy caster into a hulking monster and go to town. However, this one doesn't apply in this case, since we retain our own stats in snake form. Sometimes it's not about raw stats, it could be that your new form grants you some kind of special ability, which is our next topic.

And yes, I'll talk about the bite attack in a moment.

Utility, e.g. gaining the other form's unique abilities
This could be movement speeds, special senses, innate spellcasting, teleportation, invisibility, any number of special abilities that you wouldn't normally have access to, but your alternate form does. Now, turning into a snake gives you... nothing? I mean, most snakes in the MM have a swim speed, but it looks like we don't even get that. As far as I can tell, mechanically speaking the ability might as well read, "You strip naked and cut off both your arms." You can't wear armor (unless made for a snake, or magical armor that adjusts to fit you), you can't wield a weapon (yes I'm getting to that bite attack), this clearly isn't a combat form. Without hands, a lot of normal options are out of reach for you. It's unclear if you can produce somatic components for spells, or grapple. In a complete reversal of what you'd expect from a utility form, you actually have fewer things you can do, not more, and certainly not anything you couldn't do before.

Stealth, e.g. hiding in plain sight
Generally, this comes in two flavors. In the first, you make yourself look like someone who is supposed to be there, e.g. looking like a cultist so you can infiltrate their hideout. In the second, you turn into something harmless and innocuous that most wouldn't look twice at. Because a giant snake is the first thing that comes to mind when I think "harmless" and "innocuous". If you're in a situation where giant snakes are so commonplace that no one would consider them unusual or noteworthy, you've probably got bigger problems on your plate. In any other setting, you'll stick out like a sore thumb.

Now, that said, shapeshifting of any kind does present a sort of benefit in this regard. As long as you can keep your shapeshifting secret, any act you commit while shapeshifted can't be traced back to the "real" you. But really, if you're worried about this, you could get the Magic Initiate feat instead and pick up Disguise Self. Gets the job done just as well, if not better, and gives you two cantrips to boot.

Now about that bite attack
Here it is, the final piece of this trainwreck of a feat. At first blush, it's not so bad. 1d4 is in line with other feats like Tavern Brawler, it's about what I'd expect for an unarmed attack. But wait, it's STR based? If you look at the stat blocks of most snakes in the MM, they seem to be using DEX for both attack and damage rolls, except the constrictor snakes. But we don't get a constriction ability, we get a venomous bite ability, so it stands to reason this is based off the "poisonous" (venomous) snake, not the constrictor snake. Speaking of venom, what the actual flumph? 2d6 damage? Once per long rest? Who actually thought this was a good idea? When am I ever supposed to use this? Oh, and after I've blown my load of venom, I'm supposed to just keep fighting, but without any arms or armor.

About the only build I can think of that could make this work would be a monk or barbarian, and even then I don't see any reason to use the snake form over the humanoid form.

"Fixing" the feat
The first fix I'd suggest is to keep the INT or CHA bump, but replace the rest of the feat with a copypasta of the trait I posted above from Volo's. At least now you're actually turning into specific snakes with a stat block. Although you retain your own stats, I at least assume that you get the swim speed and can use the bite and/or constrict attacks of each respective snake (what about blindsight?). Now, this might accidently turn yuan-ti into some of the best grapplers by allowing them to turn into a Large creature, who can then be hit with Enlarge/Reduce to turn them Huge, allowing them to grapple even Gargantuan creatures. YMMV on if you think this is a problem, but let's pretend that it is and come up with a new feat that only has one form that combines aspects of both the poisonous snake and the constrictor.

But first, what purpose will this form serve? Combat? Utility? Stealth? I think stealth is out, I just can't see a way of spinning a giant snake as "harmless and innocuous". So combat and utility is the way to go. Since this is at-will shapeshifting, it shouldn't be too strong. Changing shape should be a tradeoff; we lose some abilities in order to gain different ones. By turning into a snake, we naturally lose our arms, as previously mentioned, so that's probably sufficient.

Serpent Form
You have unlocked more of your serpentfolk heritage. You gain the following benefits:

Increase your Intelligence or Charisma score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You can use an action to polymorph into a Medium snake or back into your true form. Your statistics are the same in each form. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying isn't transformed. If you die, you stay in your current form.

While in your snake form, you gain the following benefits:

You gain a swim speed equal to your walking speed.
You gain blindsight out to 10 feet.
You may use the tip of your tail to perform somatic components for spells. Likewise, you can speak and perform verbal components while in snake form.
Natural Armor. Your tough scales protect you from damage. While not wearing armor, your AC is 11 + your Dexterity modifier.
Dust Eater. As a snake, you are adept at crawling across the ground on your belly. Crawling doesn't cost you any extra movement, and you don't suffer disadvantage on attack rolls from being prone.
Camouflage Pattern. You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena.
Bite. You gain a bite attack as a natural weapon, which you can use to make unarmed strikes. You may use your choice of Strength or Dexterity for the attack roll, and on a hit the bite deals 1d4 + your Strength or Dexterity modifier piercing damage instead of the normal bludgeoning damage. When you hit with a bite attack, you can choose to deal 2d6 additional poison damage to the target. Once you deal this poison damage, you can't do so again until at least 1 minute has passed.
Constrict. You gain a constriction attack as a natural weapon, which you can use to make unarmed strikes. On a hit, you deal 1d6 + your Strength modifier bludgeoning damage, and the target is grappled. Until the grapple ends, the creature is restrained, and you can't constrict another target.


This gives us a swim speed and blindsight for utility. We can still use our spells, though material components may be trickier. I can see the appeal of playing a trickster who's frequently in snake form. We do get a literal stealth bonus, and aren't hindered as much by being prone. Some natural armor makes the lack of armor slightly more bearable. Bite attack now allows DEX, and poison attack should be once per fight. Constriction is a nice STR build option. Still, I feel like this is perhaps too messy, and possibly too strong.

This does beg the question, though: aren't snakes always prone? I mean, maybe not if they're climbing up a tree, for example, but they have no limbs to stand with. The closest they can get is to rear up their head, but that's not the same thing as standing up, at all.

JellyPooga
2020-01-15, 05:03 AM
Ok, in defence of being in the shape of a boop-noodle;

1) Snakes are pretty innocuous in places that the Yuan-ti inhabit. If you're playing a Yuan-ti at all, either you're dealing with a certain amount of prejudice anyway for being an abomination against all that is holy and good, such that being a snake is an improvement on the whole kill-it-with-fire-o-meter, or snakes are considered a background feature, if not actively chill in the culture/region you're playing.

2) Snakes are noodly. Whilst the rules do not support it, for brevity, I doubt there's a GM alive that wouldn't allow you to squeeze through smaller spaces than your size would otherwise allow. Snakes also have relatively small heads for their size and many, if not most, snakes have the ability to "periscope" their body many times their natural "height"; both factors that make snakes remarkably good observers. Combine this with the mobility offered by being a noodle and you have a form that is actually pretty good for stealth and scouting. Being a noodle also makes finding somewhere to sleep pretty easy too; they'll get comfy almost anywhere.

3) 'Dat jaw tho. Wondering what to do with that corpse? Need to hide the evidence? Engage noodle form to just chug it in one. Saves on rations too. Warning: May make you drowsy. Don't operate heavy machinery after swallowing your prey whole.

4) Booper. Snakes are cute! Who wouldn't want a boop from a noodle? Conversely, ophidaphobia(sp?) is pretty common. Need to clear an area of commoners in a hurry? Yeah, a snake the size of a horse will send folk running about as quickly as shouting "shark" will clear a beach.

Chaos Jackal
2020-01-15, 05:31 AM
The Expanded Racial Feats is a DM's Guild supplement that falls entirely under homebrew for all intents and purposes, so if you're a player the first thing to do is run it by your DM.

That being said, turning into a snake can allow for sneaking around more easily, depending on the location also more inconspicuously (grasslands, a jungle, a yuan-ti or some sort of snake cult temple etc.), can help with camouflage, can potentially allow someone to squeeze through tight spaces and lets you hide behind low walls, wrap around trees or pipes, and whatever else a snake can do that your DM doesn't leer at. It's also a half-feat, so that's even less of an opportunity cost.

Offensively, yeah, it's no big deal, but it's still unlimited shapeshifting. A non-Moon druid gets a much wider range of forms, but a lot less uses, and their wildshape is still a great ability. Sure, a snake might not be the most amazing animal, but in the right environment and with some creativity it can be very useful.

Would I pick it if homebrew was allowed? Probably not, though that goes for more than half the feats in the books. It's still a half-feat though, for Int or Cha no less, and both of these stats get pretty terrible half-feats overall. If I wanted to round out one of these stats and get something extra to boot I'd definitely pick this over Actor or Keen Mind, for example.

What you're proposing is over the top. Unlimited shapeshifting that allows spellcasting (a very rare ability), blindsight and a swim speed, plus a bunch of less impressive abilities that still have a niche, and to top it off it stays a half-feat. I don't know how lenient your DM is, but that wouldn't fly in most tables I've played. It's not broken, but it's still tremendous utility with no real loss.
Funnily enough, it's also not a good combat form for a non-full caster, unless your paladin is only focused on keeping up Bless (in which case, play a Cleric). The armor is less than that of a martial, the damage is less than that of any martial who doesn't use daggers, overall the only real "bonus" here is dropping prone for ranged attacks without movement or attack penalty (though you're still getting hit with advantage in melee, so I'm not sure how much of a boon that is) or fighting something invisible. For a full caster though, especially an armorless one, it's probably a straight-on boost. +1 AC, can drop prone in order to dodge ranged attacks (and the melee attackers are less likely to have made it to you), still carries that blindsight and can still cast spells. The question here becomes why not to make the snake form your main one.

An animal form ability is usually reserved for scouting purposes, sometimes with an added utility (flying, for example, or, in this case, the unlimited uses). Adding spellcasting and more utility benefits to an unlimited polymorph effect and granting it through a half-feat is too much.

Smoothjedi
2020-01-15, 11:46 AM
So, I do have one question about this feat. What exactly am I supposed to do with it?
Aside from the obvious RP potential, what exactly is the purpose of the ability? What benefits does it bring to my character? Under what circumstances would I be encouraged to shapeshift into a snake? When it comes to shapeshifting abilities, I can think of three potential uses for such an ability.

If nothing else, it's a quick, niche way to thwart the heat metal spell cast on your equipment.

Theaitetos
2020-01-15, 03:24 PM
I agree with the premise that that this feat is too weak/useless. However, Chaos Jackal is right, your proposal is overpowered. If you want to change this feat into something useful, go the versatility way, not the power way, i.e. add 1 benefit & 1 disadvantage to each of the three pillars. For example:

Exploration:

+ You gain a swimming speed equal to your walking speed, Tremorsense 20ft, and can squeeze through narrow spaces.
– You have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks regarding hearing. Your movement speed is halved in cold environments and between midnight & dawn.


Social:

+ You have proficiency & advantage on Charisma checks dealing with scaly creatures (snakes, lizards, dragons). If you already have proficiency in such a skill, you have expertise in it when dealing with scaly creatures. You can cast your Yuan-Ti racial spells without any components.
– You are a valid target for harmful spells & abilities that only affect beasts (Animal Friendship, Dominate Beast).


Combat:

+ Your AC changes to 13 + DEX or CON (your choice). When you hit with your Bite attack, you can immediately use your Bonus Action to cast your Poison Spray cantrip on the target; the target has disadvantage on the Constitution saving throw and the damage ignores poison resistance.
– You can't use items. You are vulnerable to cold damage and you have disadvantage on saving throws in cold climates.


I think this is still very strong, but it also has severe drawbacks, i.e. it adds versatile options instead of power.
The exploration drawback means that it's not a good way of spying on others, as you can't hear very well, and you might even get surprised; that way it's restricted to more natural environments.
The social pillar is similar to the Draconic Sorcerer's bonus on dealing with dragons, but it opens you up to falling victim to enemy spellcasters, especially druids.
The combat pillar gives you a strong Booming Blade / Green-Flame Blade like ability for melee, but you lose AC and are more vulnerable. A possible Yuan-Ti caster would probably gain AC, but the inability to cast spells other than the innate Yuan-Ti race spells (10ft Poison Spray) makes it a bad trade-off – unless he finds himself in melee.

That should alleviate any fears of certain classes being overpowered by snakeshifting. (←I like that word :smallbiggrin:)

JackPhoenix
2020-01-15, 05:38 PM
Evil Overlord List rule number 34: I will not turn into a snake. It never helps.

Now you know why.