Shifting Alignment: Starting as CE in a Good Campaign

[blackjack50]

I am curious how others might react to this. The idea is that I want to play a character whose backstory is CE and filled with violence. He eventually is put into prison and released and that is when he meets the party. I want the party to convert him from CE to good. I like to have range in my characters. I’ve played a radical libertarian in the past. Anti nobility. Which was fun when in a group with a noble lol. But

So what I am mostly wondering: how would you suggest presenting the character? And what actions could have me acting as ab”CE” in type on the road to recovery? I’m thinking of him being a brutish thug keeping his head down when he is thrust into the party. He will not have a code or anything. But he will have a philosophy of brutality if violence is to occur. I want players to slowly convert him and for him to ultimately look for forgiveness. What

[MoiMagnus]

First, just because your character is CE does not mean he doesn't want friends and want to be alone.
Living as a parasite of others is a typical CE behavior.

Assuming his background makes him "a weird guy", he was never really accepted by the society, and he has reason to distrust the society and any other organized placed, as they always were "against him". Hence a strong Chaotic component forged by his past. Living in a precarious situation, he gave up any long-term plan and only seeks short-term enjoyment, usually evil ones.

Somehow joining a party would be a turning point in this character life, as for the first time, he has something to lose: peoples he can rely on because they are too naive/goodhearted to betray him. While he will not (yet) sacrifice himself for them, he might definitely put all his strength to protect this "safe place" he has with them. This is a situation he probably does not expect to ever encounter again in his (probably short) life, so he will make sure it last as long as possible.

Small Tip: Having a pet is a great way to signify your character is actually able to care about someone. Moreover, it opens some easy way for other PCs to gain your trust by protecting "the only being you care about".

Thing to Fear: If the DM put you in a very dire situation early on, that will not work. Your character will have too much interest into running away (especially with a pet), and try to avoid the consequences of his acts, as he always did in the past. So talk with your DM to check if you will have time to start your redemption path before things degenerate... If your DM plan to start the campaign "in medias res", then you might want to synchronize with one (or multiple) other PCs so that you already met with them prior to the beginning of the campaign, and already started your redemption path with them as part of your background.

[Sigreid]

First thing that comes to mind would be to propose and even start to act on the most brutally efficient solution to a problem, but Llow the party to stop you without having to resort to force. Gradually get to the point where you start to impliment such a solution and let them see you stop yourself. You draw back for a punch at the begger, pause and lower your fist. That sort of thing.

[AdAstra]

Thing to Fear: If the DM put you in a very dire situation early on, that will not work. Your character will have too much interest into running away (especially with a pet), and try to avoid the consequences of his acts, as he always did in the past. So talk with your DM to check if you will have time to start your redemption path before things degenerate... If your DM plan to start the campaign "in medias res", then you might want to synchronize with one (or multiple) other PCs so that you already met with them prior to the beginning of the campaign, and already started your redemption path with them as part of your background.

This is all generally good. I think this last part might not even be a huge deal if the CE character has sufficient incentive to stay with the party anyway. Even a stupid jerk will realize that if there are monsters everywhere, it'll probably be best not to just run off into the night alone. If the CE really wants say, revenge on someone no matter the consequences, they might well be willing to work with Goody Two-Shoes types to kill them, and stick with them even when things get rough, because they're the best bet the CE has to get their target. Anything that can keep the CE character (not player) in line through fear or anger will likely work pretty well.

[Sparky McDibben]

One thing that I haven't seen said, and probably doesn't need to be said, but make sure you have the buy-in of the rest of the group (not for the CE thing, but for the redemption arc) and the DM (for both). Some players are going to be so down for this, but some of them really want to just play their character and kick down the door. This will let you know who you can have those "But it's easier!" scenes of character development with.

[blackjack50]

First, just because your character is CE does not mean he doesn't want friends and want to be alone.
Living as a parasite of others is a typical CE behavior.

Assuming his background makes him "a weird guy", he was never really accepted by the society, and he has reason to distrust the society and any other organized placed, as they always were "against him". Hence a strong Chaotic component forged by his past. Living in a precarious situation, he gave up any long-term plan and only seeks short-term enjoyment, usually evil ones.

Somehow joining a party would be a turning point in this character life, as for the first time, he has something to lose: peoples he can rely on because they are too naive/goodhearted to betray him. While he will not (yet) sacrifice himself for them, he might definitely put all his strength to protect this "safe place" he has with them. This is a situation he probably does not expect to ever encounter again in his (probably short) life, so he will make sure it last as long as possible.

Small Tip: Having a pet is a great way to signify your character is actually able to care about someone. Moreover, it opens some easy way for other PCs to gain your trust by protecting "the only being you care about".

Thing to Fear: If the DM put you in a very dire situation early on, that will not work. Your character will have too much interest into running away (especially with a pet), and try to avoid the consequences of his acts, as he always did in the past. So talk with your DM to check if you will have time to start your redemption path before things degenerate... If your DM plan to start the campaign "in medias res", then you might want to synchronize with one (or multiple) other PCs so that you already met with them prior to the beginning of the campaign, and already started your redemption path with them as part of your background.

I didn’t even consider that about the early conflict. I was looking to make this character a mercenary. A paid thug with no allegiance. So that is actually perfect.

[blackjack50]

One thing that I haven't seen said, and probably doesn't need to be said, but make sure you have the buy-in of the rest of the group (not for the CE thing, but for the redemption arc) and the DM (for both). Some players are going to be so down for this, but some of them really want to just play their character and kick down the door. This will let you know who you can have those "But it's easier!" scenes of character development with.

I think the character will be easy to work in as long as there is no murder hobo partying. Which these people usually don’t do.

[GreyBlack]

Yes, I always know that I say this about Chaotic Evil... but in this case it fits really, REALLY well.

Rick from "Rick and Morty" should be your go to.

Your character is in some way attached to the party, and the way your character shows that you care about them is in this really toxic way. Party needs to get information? I'll do it! Just gonna start dipping him in vats of acid until he gives it up.

You will _casually_ destroy things because it helps the rest of the party. At least in your own mind.

Your character will not have a healthy relationship with the party. But, through play, maybe your character's behavior will start to change. Your desire to protect and help will become less toxic over time until eventually maybe you're just amoral rather than full on sociopathic in your desires.

[Theaitetos]

Give him a reason not to act out his previous behavior at once. Maybe fear of getting imprisoned again, even if it's the criminals in prison you fear more than the imprisonment itself. Maybe having made a promise to someone you cared about on their deathbed – a family member or beloved partner who died when you got busted by the feds guards. Maybe you don't want to disappoint another inmate/guard/prison cleric, who left you impressed (with an idea). It's not meant to change who the character is, but there should be some hesitation to do CE acts as long as the character is not in a strong mood or intoxicated.

If the rest of the party is down for this, let them actually make efforts to help you, so they don't just assume that you get CG all on your own.

[Tanarii]

I'd Probably write the character up as initially as:
Alignment - Chaotic neutral (CN) "follow [my] whims, holding [my] personal freedom above all else."
Flaw - "I'm prone to bloodthirsty violence when my wants are frustrated."
Ideal - "My time in prison taught me that I need to overcome my violent nature to function in society."

The ideal and flaw are in direct conflict. Always fun. And maybe a Bond tied directly to someone in the party who can help you bring out the best.

Then in time shift the Flaw to "fits of anger/shouting" or something like that.

Edit: you definitely need Table buy in for this to work btw.

Edit2: Also note that I see Alignment behavior as just another role playing motivation. Not a description. So you want it to be one aspect of how you will act going forward, not what you have been.

[follacchioso]

If there is anything I have learned in my travels across the Planes, it is that many things may change the nature of a man. Whether regret, or love, or revenge or fear - whatever you believe can change the nature of a man, can. I’ve seen belief move cities, make men stave off death, and turn an evil hag's heart half-circle. This entire Fortress has been constructed from belief. Belief damned a woman, whose heart clung to the hope that another loved her when he did not. Once, it made a man seek immortality and achieve it. And it has made a posturing spirit think it is something more than a part of me.

(from planescape: torment)

[ezekielraiden]

I am curious how others might react to this. The idea is that I want to play a character whose backstory is CE and filled with violence. He eventually is put into prison and released and that is when he meets the party. I want the party to convert him from CE to good. I like to have range in my characters. I’ve played a radical libertarian in the past. Anti nobility. Which was fun when in a group with a noble lol. But

So what I am mostly wondering: how would you suggest presenting the character? And what actions could have me acting as ab”CE” in type on the road to recovery? I’m thinking of him being a brutish thug keeping his head down when he is thrust into the party. He will not have a code or anything. But he will have a philosophy of brutality if violence is to occur. I want players to slowly convert him and for him to ultimately look for forgiveness. What

Three things to keep in mind if you want to do this.

1. Don't forget to make your character likable even though they're (currently) Evil. It's not just that he needs a reason to stick with the party--the party needs a reason to want him to change, and certainly to stick around. Having some kind of trait, characteristic, quirk, or habit that endears him to the party is really helpful here. For example, maybe he can be a jerk to other people, but in prison, he learned that if you (generic) wanted to survive and not get shanked, you HAD to watch your cellmate's back. His party are his cellmates now, so he looks out for them--not because he likes them, but because he doesn't want to die, or worse, go back to jail. So he deals with them honestly, shares the loot he finds, watches their back without thinking about betraying them. Maybe he even tries to teach one of the party members his way of thinking to "toughen them up"--and, in so doing, he lets them become important to him. Maybe he's a really good cook, and truly enjoys cooking for its own sake. Whatever it is, give him that human touch so that he's a person they can care about (even, or especially, when he's frustrating) rather than a problem they have to manage.

2. Be patient. These kinds of things require time, and may experience setbacks--in fact, setbacks may be desirable. Actual changes to a person's values-system take a long time. You'll almost certainly be doing these in a compressed fashion compared to real-world people. But letting the process happen naturally is important. In particular, it can be useful to set some loose, flexible guideposts for how far you're willing to let the character change in a short period. E.g. he has to learn to trust somebody before he can learn to trust the group as a whole, and he has to trust the group as a whole before he can take that first, hesitant, tentative step toward being a better person. And along the way, he has to sit down and really, really think about all the horrible things he's done: because suddenly developing a moral compass hurts, a LOT, in a "my god(s), what have I done???" kind of way. Having these milestones on the journey, and making sure they crop up naturally, will be something everyone contributes to, but you're the one at the helm so to speak.

3. Work with your fellow-players to find concepts and situations that would lead to your character actually questioning his worldview. For example, you've mentioned that he's thuggish, implying that he really only cares about strength--you don't hate someone who's stronger than you and thus tells you what to do, you either put up with it or you work to take them down so you can do what you want. But if he genuinely came to believe that a person stronger than him only got that way BECAUSE they were all noble and goody-two-shoes-y, that would be a pretty big blow to his values-system. Having someone ACTUALLY best him in strength, "because my heart is pure" (even if that's never explicitly said), would make him start to wonder. Seeing people feeling simple joy, carefree, trusting, can also help a lot. Check out important redemption arcs like Prince Zuko in Avatar: the Last Airbender, who needed guidance, understanding, and patience to realize that what he THOUGHT he wanted and what he ACTUALLY wanted were two very, very different things. Similarly, it's likely that he doesn't trust anyone, not even his "cellmates"...but then they trust him. Genuinely, truly. From the sound of it, that's something he's never experienced before. Maybe one of the party doesn't trust him, and sees him in a situation that looks bad for a moment, until he turns away, not exploiting a golden opportunity. He's not Good yet, he's hardly even Neutral, but it's a start.

Also, if you're looking for more analysis/advice, check out these videos from Overly Sarcastic Productions. They're useful starting points for much of what you want to do here.
Reformed Villains (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs2TkXBYT9A) (ideal for this)
Paragons (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm_Pi6OpNKU) (useful tips for allies that inspire good in others, aka your character)
Power of Friendship (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-cRPmVOtAk) (four out of five redeemed villains recommend the Power of Friendship for all your conversion-to-good-guy needs!)
Damsels in Distress (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rLfENrnsoQ) (useful to build/show the PoF, aka "maybe this trust thing isn't stupid after all"--don't worry, it's not about being a passive idiot!)
Darkest Hours (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyMBuz2s798) (possible choice as a final kick in the butt to go full-on Good? I dunno, thought it might be helpful)
Antiheroes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpABx1NOIX0) (somewhat useful for thinking about the personality, motives, etc. that your character exhibits--and, by contrast, what you can do to change them)

[redwizard007]

Love.

If your character is in love with another PC, ideally a LG PC, then he will have an easy excuse to self modify his behavior.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Also, if you're looking for more analysis/advice, check out these videos from Overly Sarcastic Productions. They're useful starting points for much of what you want to do here.
Reformed Villains (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs2TkXBYT9A) (ideal for this)
Paragons (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm_Pi6OpNKU) (useful tips for allies that inspire good in others, aka your character)
Power of Friendship (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-cRPmVOtAk) (four out of five redeemed villains recommend the Power of Friendship for all your conversion-to-good-guy needs!)
Damsels in Distress (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rLfENrnsoQ) (useful to build/show the PoF, aka "maybe this trust thing isn't stupid after all"--don't worry, it's not about being a passive idiot!)
Darkest Hours (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyMBuz2s798) (possible choice as a final kick in the butt to go full-on Good? I dunno, thought it might be helpful)
Antiheroes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpABx1NOIX0) (somewhat useful for thinking about the personality, motives, etc. that your character exhibits--and, by contrast, what you can do to change them)

Just poking my head in to say thanks for these links. They're really helpful!

[Wizard_Lizard]

make them be chaotic evil because they dont understand that what they do s bad. also it helps if you mke them the big stupid person.

[ezekielraiden]

Just poking my head in to say thanks for these links. They're really helpful!

My pleasure. I'm always happy to spread the word about OSP's work. They're good folks!