Break my wizard!

[Dracone]

So I currently have a wizard 3/mage of the arcane order 1 in a dnd 3.5 game. And it has come to my attention that he is never going to catch up in power to the other characters of equal level. And yes, I know wizards grow exponentially and others grow linearly, but the dm has allowed some seriously questionable homebrew in to the tune of 1 fighter having a plus 45 to hit at level 3, plus 30 to damage, a 35 ac, flight, and teleportation. And while shes the most broken, she isn't that much more broken than everyone else. Save my character since I made him by the book on my own. So, I would like some advice on breaking him for later. I know in general how to properly play a wizard, I've read both treantmonk and logic ninjas famous guides. But they dont seem to offer much explanation on their cheese other than to avoid it and I dont think even following them my wizard is gonna catch up to the rest of the party before level 20 (for one thing, the dm is wary of wizards and hasnt given me any loot since we started... however one player now has a legitimate artifact....)

So, I come seeking advice, for once a wizard needs to be broken more in order to restore proper party balance. Any advice you have is appreciated.

Edit: For clarity's sake, yes I already tried talking to the DM. That was step 1. He is perfectly nice, and perfectly clueless, and his ideas on how to fix things are perfectly useless. Like, he is willing, just a new DM who can't quite grasp the problems mentally.

Edit again: No divine magic is allowed in the campaign of any kind, I need purely arcane cheese. Dm's homebrew world doesn't have divine magic. However, excluding divine magic, anything in any book is valid.

Current Build
Wizard 3/Mage of the Arcane Order 1, Race: Lesser Dragon.
Ability scores:
Str 15
Dex 22
Con 15
Int 26
Wis 25
Cha 21


Feats: Scribe Scroll
Cooperative Spell
Smiting Spell

Skills Bluff +4
Diplomacy +4
Forgery +4
Knowledge: Arcana, History, the Planes +7 each
Search +4
Spellcraft +7
Spot +4
Use magical device +3
(I have some skill ranks left over, DM house ruled us to be able to save them)

Spells:
All wizard cantrips (way too many to list, from class feature)
All wizard necromancy spells (again, too many to list between all the source books, feature of DM's homebrew world)
Spellpool of the arcane order can be used to temporarily use any spell levels 1-3

First level
Animate Rope
Charm Person
Cause Fear
Detect Undead
Enlarge Person
Grease
Identify
Mage armor
Magic Missile
Shield
Sleep
Unseen Servant
Ray of Enfeeblment


Second Level
Glitter Dust
Shatter
Web
Scorching Ray
Blur

[Menzath]

Hmm. So my advice is, before you go all TO, maybe talk with the DM and tell them about how you feel ineffectual in the party, about what spells you have and will be picking, and how they will be used.
Discuss with them how you would like to add to the party so you too can enjoy the game, and not feel like an add-on or such.

If that doesn't work and they ignore you, then maybe think about breaking the game, and then waving goodbye?

[Dracone]

Hmm. So my advice is, before you go all TO, maybe talk with the DM and tell them about how you feel ineffectual in the party, about what spells you have and will be picking, and how they will be used.
Discuss with them how you would like to add to the party so you too can enjoy the game, and not feel like an add-on or such.

If that doesn't work and they ignore you, then maybe think about breaking the game, and then waving goodbye?

Oh, don't worry, I am an adult. I DID talk to the DM. He doesn't seem to understand the concept of a wizard being underpowered... Like he isn't a **** about it or anything but his "solutions" revolve around giving me more hp and ac as if that's the problem, when no one has failed one of my saves since level 1. (and not cause they are low but because he is balancing for the party as a whole and a cr 14 monster has a lot better saves then what we *should* be facing. Last session our level 4 party took out 3 mindflayers and a dozen intellect devourers for example.... by the time I have equipment to deal with that level of threat the rest of the party will be on to even bigger!

Yea no, when I say I need help breaking my wizard, I won't actually be breaking the game with it. He is running it at like an exalted power level and I'm just trying to get a wizard that would break any other game so that he is up to par in this one. I'll only wave goodbye if I can't get things working because I like the people involved and I have fun, I just want to be able to actually do things in combat, I'll only wave them goodbye if I cant figure out a way to actually play eventually.

[tstewt1921]

Hmm. So my advice is, before you go all TO, maybe talk with the DM and tell them about how you feel ineffectual in the party, about what spells you have and will be picking, and how they will be used.
Discuss with them how you would like to add to the party so you too can enjoy the game, and not feel like an add-on or such.

If that doesn't work and they ignore you, then maybe think about breaking the game, and then waving goodbye?

This will probably be the best, because as the DM is giving as you say artifacts and such to other players and allowing homebrew stuff, there would be no way, even with breaking it you would be able to keep up. If all else fails, start going with enchantment magic and mind control people.

[Menzath]

He is running it at like an exalted power level and I'm just trying to get a wizard that would break any other game so that he is up to par in this one.

I am assuming white wolf Exalted style, huh yeah, I gotcha. I'll see what I can come up with after work.
Edit: BTW can you post your full build so we know what we're working with?

[Dracone]

I am assuming white wolf Exalted style, huh yeah, I gotcha. I'll see what I can come up with after work.
Edit: BTW can you post your full build so we know what we're working with?

I would be perfectly happy to post the full build, but I'm not sure I understand the question? I thought the full build was his levels of which he only has the 4 levels mentioned. What other information would be useful at this time?


Edit. Also we are using any rules found in any book, one of which offers retraining so what I have now isn't all that important aside from levels as I can change it in the future. Because of how he had us make characters, my ability scores are ungodly high across the board, because he had us roll 5d6 for stats (keeping all 5) so I think my lowest stat is my con at a 15, everything else is atleast 20. My race is Lesser Dragon.

[Xervous]

Ability scores, race, feats, ACFs if any. Selection of familiar if any, spells known, gear, etc.

[Menzath]

I would be perfectly happy to post the full build, but I'm not sure I understand the question? I thought the full build was his levels of which he only has the 4 levels mentioned. What other information would be useful at this time?


Edit. Also we are using any rules found in any book, one of which offers retraining so what I have now isn't all that important aside from levels as I can change it in the future. Because of how he had us make characters, my ability scores are ungodly high across the board, because he had us roll 5d6 for stats (keeping all 5) so I think my lowest stat is my con at a 15, everything else is atleast 20. My race is Lesser Dragon.


Race, skills, feats. Skill ranks and feats are the big ones needed. Race is for niche stuff but still useful for certain things.

Also good to know about the tables source rules, ty for that.
Edit: also what type of character you are aiming towards being, probably not like aladdins genie, wielding phenomenal cosmic power, nor like megumin being a one trick pony(though hilarious). I'd expect you want something in between?

[Dracone]

Race, skills, feats. Skill ranks and feats are the big ones needed. Race is for niche stuff but still useful for certain things.

Also good to know about the tables source rules, ty for that.
Edit: also what type of character you are aiming towards being, probably not like aladdins genie, wielding phenomenal cosmic power, nor like megumin being a one trick pony(though hilarious). I'd expect you want something in between?

I mean, phenomenal cosmic power certainly works for me xD. Definitely not Megumin though, problem with one trick ponies is either the DM doesn't work to counter act them and you win every fight instantly,. or he does and its useless.

I'm used to being incredibly overpowered so I mean, if you end up making the genie, that's fine, I can just not play to my full potential as a character. It's a lot easier to just not use abilities and use something else, than to not be able to keep up, and I am very capable of just not using my full powers most of the time so that other people can have some spotlight. Something in between also works, most of what I really enjoy in being a wizard isn't actually in combat so much as in RP, I just want to be able to still be potent in combat instead of never actually successfully doing anything significant.

Full build is up, however one thing I forgot to mention that I edited in up next to it, on the subject of source material all books are fine, but no divine magic, dm homebrew world doesnt have gods. Just in case you were thinking of the Dweomerkeeper since that would make the Genie instantly xD.

[Segev]

Off the top of my head, a wizard with Heightened Spell can arbitrarily Heighten any Necromancy spell he prepares by as many Slaymates as he can stack within 10 feet of himself while preparing his spells. That's one way to boost at least one school's save DCs sky-high.

The Mother Cyst feat and its granted spells, then, become really potent for use as general-purpose combat spells. Apply Reach Spell and Chain Spell to necrotic cyst to afflict CL+1 victims with a ranged touch attack and a sky-high Fort. DC to make them vulnerable, and then you can Chain the damaging spells from it fairly easily, also with super-high save DCs AND the necrotic cyst itself imposing -2 to saves vs. necromancy.

[Demidos]

Honestly, if you're facing 14th level opponents since it's exalted.....isn't that basically just the same as higher level DND?


What would your DM say to "absorbing the power of the many artifacts and magic boosts your party has into yourselves" and just arbitrarily raising everyone to level 10? The melee types will get a small boost that is probably not hugely unbalancing in any way (at least not relative to the original absurd power levels), and you will get a large boost in power to the point where you can meaningfully contribute. There are 5th level spells that can meaningfully contribute to almost any game (e.g. Teleport etc).

Your DM can be new to the game, but you should ask him some of the following questions --

Why are you emulating us being at higher level by raising HP/AC/etc instead of just making us higher level? (For a fighter, you listed bonus damage, hp, ac, and to hit, which is basically just adding 20 levels, plus flight and teleportation, which are like him buying magic items with 14th level WBL)
How often do you think enemies should pass my saves for e.g. fireball? How often do they pass my saves?
Since he's a newbie DM, why does he think wizards are so overpowered? Is he an experienced player? If so, I would suggest asking him to try keeping track (loosely) of contributions in combat -- nothing super detailed, but something like (Wizard stunned 3 minions for 2 rounds and killed 1 minion, warrior killed 12 minions in 2 rounds, archer killed boss round 1 solo) so he can see why you're feeling useless. It should take only about a minute each combat and might give him a stronger feeling for how to DM for a diverse party.


Basically your DM is advancing the game power level both unevenly and differently than it's meant to be advanced, and so obviously there's some strange inconsistencies. While wizards can be much stronger than Fighters of the same level, that depends heavily on player, playstyle, and build -- my Wizard that ONLY prepared Knock in all his slots is not going to be the most useful party member, despite being a Tier 1 class. Wizards can ABSOLUTELY be weak.

[Calthropstu]

Mail man sounds write up your alley.
Build a full overkill mailman build that will 1 shot literally anything.
That should be able to keep up.

[Mike Miller]

I haven't read responses, but my gut reaction is that you aren't going to win this battle. If the DM is "wary of wizards" then just don't play a wizard. Pick a class that your DM will boost to equally ridiculous power levels so that you can contribute as much as everyone else. Then just pretend you are a wizard with your newfound power!

[Dracone]

Off the top of my head, a wizard with Heightened Spell can arbitrarily Heighten any Necromancy spell he prepares by as many Slaymates as he can stack within 10 feet of himself while preparing his spells. That's one way to boost at least one school's save DCs sky-high.

The Mother Cyst feat and its granted spells, then, become really potent for use as general-purpose combat spells. Apply Reach Spell and Chain Spell to necrotic cyst to afflict CL+1 victims with a ranged touch attack and a sky-high Fort. DC to make them vulnerable, and then you can Chain the damaging spells from it fairly easily, also with super-high save DCs AND the necrotic cyst itself imposing -2 to saves vs. necromancy.

Im sorry, Im not quite sure I follow. The Slaymates increase caster level, and heighten just increases its spell slot. How would increasing caster level affect the DC? If I could do that that would be very helpful!


Honestly, if you're facing 14th level opponents since it's exalted.....isn't that basically just the same as higher level DND?


What would your DM say to "absorbing the power of the many artifacts and magic boosts your party has into yourselves" and just arbitrarily raising everyone to level 10? The melee types will get a small boost that is probably not hugely unbalancing in any way (at least not relative to the original absurd power levels), and you will get a large boost in power to the point where you can meaningfully contribute. There are 5th level spells that can meaningfully contribute to almost any game (e.g. Teleport etc).

Your DM can be new to the game, but you should ask him some of the following questions --

Why are you emulating us being at higher level by raising HP/AC/etc instead of just making us higher level? (For a fighter, you listed bonus damage, hp, ac, and to hit, which is basically just adding 20 levels, plus flight and teleportation, which are like him buying magic items with 14th level WBL)
How often do you think enemies should pass my saves for e.g. fireball? How often do they pass my saves?
Since he's a newbie DM, why does he think wizards are so overpowered? Is he an experienced player? If so, I would suggest asking him to try keeping track (loosely) of contributions in combat -- nothing super detailed, but something like (Wizard stunned 3 minions for 2 rounds and killed 1 minion, warrior killed 12 minions in 2 rounds, archer killed boss round 1 solo) so he can see why you're feeling useless. It should take only about a minute each combat and might give him a stronger feeling for how to DM for a diverse party.


Basically your DM is advancing the game power level both unevenly and differently than it's meant to be advanced, and so obviously there's some strange inconsistencies. While wizards can be much stronger than Fighters of the same level, that depends heavily on player, playstyle, and build -- my Wizard that ONLY prepared Knock in all his slots is not going to be the most useful party member, despite being a Tier 1 class. Wizards can ABSOLUTELY be weak.


Let me clarify earlier, when I was comparing it to exalted I meant in the power scope. He did not set out to do this. He does not want us to be high level or this powerful. He just doesn't actually understand what he is doing and refuses to nerf things when he makes a mistake because he hates taking away from people, so every time he tries to balance things out by making other people more powerful instead.... and he doesn't do it to me because he doesn't understand that the way he's balancing I'm not going to catch up. I can imagine his reaction to just increasing everyones level and I am pretty sure he wouldn't. The reason he is wary of wizards is because he *isn't* an experienced player, and in his last game, the wizard, him, became broken af.... probably because I am guessing his previous DM wasn't all that experienced either considering how he makes his undead and he played as a necromancer before (he just gives you the full stat block of a creature you raise.... one of the party raised a mindflayer with a scroll and got everything including it's psionics for example) If they would stay relatively similar in capabilities or else grow at the rate they are suppossed to, I'm pretty sure I *could* catch up by level 10... problem is, they are still growing at an absurd rate and it wont be too long before my contributions in combat are basically to cast identify on the loot afterwards....

Im hoping to use some really absurdly cheesey spells like Shivering Touch to start to even that out next level, but I want to try and figure out more ways to increase my powerlevel so that I can continue to keep up. Things like the craft contingent spell can be absolutely broken af if I can get enough downtime, and around level 10 I should get an increase in actual downtime due to teleport, but *shrugs* just trying to figure out ways to increase my powerlevel so that I can play the kind of character I want to play.

[Vizzerdrix]

You could always go the tainted scholar route.

[Segev]

Im sorry, Im not quite sure I follow. The Slaymates increase caster level, and heighten just increases its spell slot. How would increasing caster level affect the DC? If I could do that that would be very helpful!

Slaymates don't increase caster level. At all.

Slaymates have their Pale Aura, which allows metamagic applied to necromancy spells to be reduced in slot cost by 1.

So with one Slaymate, you could prepare an Extended command undead in a 2nd level spell slot.

With three Slaymates, you can prepare a Reach necrotic cyst in a 2nd level spell slot. You can prepare a Reach Chain necrotic cyst in a 2nd level spell slot with 6 Slaymates.

Heighten Spell is a metamagic that, for every +1 slot level you apply to a spell to prepare it with Heighten, the DC goes up by 1.

So, for every Slaymate you have nearby that you're not using to reduce a different metamagic feat, you can get +1 to the spell's DC.

So, for example, if you have 24 Slaymates arranged in a 10-foot "radius" box around you, and you don't have any other metamagics you want to apply to a given necromancy spell, you can keep the spell in the base slot level it uses, and get +24 to its DC, as long as you know Heighten Spell.

Personally, I'd get Mother Cyst, Heighten Spell, and 24 Slaymates to have a Reach Chain necrotic cyst Heightened 18 times (to a total effective spell level of 20), for a 30+int mod DC to the primary target and 26+int mod DC to CL additional targets. All in a 2nd-level spell slot.

Then prepare Chain necrotic bloat when you have third level spells, and you can heighten it 21 times (because you don't need 3 of them for Reach), hitting one target for a DC 34+Int Mod, and the rest for DC 30+Int Mod, with fireball-like damage that is fortitude for half and does half the damage as Vile damage (which can't be healed except in a Sanctified place).

The Mother Cyst line of spells just gets nastier, especially with ludicrous saves like this, as you get higher level.

[Rebel7284]

If your enemies are passing saves, you can... Use spells that don't depend on saves. Enlarge Person on the character with extra damage to make that damage even higher. Haste, etc.

I actually played a game where all the other characters had artifact "armor" that gave them a ton of abilities. As I was playing a Shadowcraft Mage, I felt like I had a lot less power, but with essentially spontaneous casting from two schools, I had TONS of flexibility and thus helped solve multiple encounters. This was level 11 I think, so I had lots of extra levels to help even the playing field.

The issue is that very few high-powered builds happen at low levels

Consider Troll-Blooded optimization to survive the low levels. Not dying is good.

After that, go into something like Incantatrix or Shadowcraft Mage or both for tons of free magic.

If you want to completely rebuild the character, here are a few broken builds that you can use:

1. Say you started as a Savage Bard 1/Were-Fleshraker 4/Ur-Priest 4 and cured Lyconthrapy right before the game started. Now you can adventure as a 5th level character with a VERY fast spell progression.

2. Cleric 3/Shadowcraft Mage 3
Use Divine Metamagic (Heighten Spell) with the spell Dark Way to qualify for early Shadowcraft Mage entry. Then use Divine Metamagic Heighten on Silent Image to cast 8th/9th level spells a few times a day. Very feat hungry, so flaws help.

Also, question, how exactly are you getting into mage of the arcane order at level 4? You need 8 ranks in a skill.

[skunk3]

Are you sure that you even want to be playing in this game? Is it fun? Is it something that you look forward to? To me it seems like there's way too much questionable homebrew and DM fiat and thus the game is going to be massively imbalanced once you guys hit levels in the double digits, perhaps sooner. If you are positive that you want to play in this game and want to optimize without going massively cheesy look into Incantrix or better yet, Dweomerkeeper. IMO Dweomerkeeper is probably the most powerful prestige class in 3.5.

[Crake]

Slaymates don't increase caster level. At all.

Slaymates have their Pale Aura, which allows metamagic applied to necromancy spells to be reduced in slot cost by 1.

So with one Slaymate, you could prepare an Extended command undead in a 2nd level spell slot.

With three Slaymates, you can prepare a Reach necrotic cyst in a 2nd level spell slot. You can prepare a Reach Chain necrotic cyst in a 2nd level spell slot with 6 Slaymates.

Heighten Spell is a metamagic that, for every +1 slot level you apply to a spell to prepare it with Heighten, the DC goes up by 1.

So, for every Slaymate you have nearby that you're not using to reduce a different metamagic feat, you can get +1 to the spell's DC.

So, for example, if you have 24 Slaymates arranged in a 10-foot "radius" box around you, and you don't have any other metamagics you want to apply to a given necromancy spell, you can keep the spell in the base slot level it uses, and get +24 to its DC, as long as you know Heighten Spell.

Personally, I'd get Mother Cyst, Heighten Spell, and 24 Slaymates to have a Reach Chain necrotic cyst Heightened 18 times (to a total effective spell level of 20), for a 30+int mod DC to the primary target and 26+int mod DC to CL additional targets. All in a 2nd-level spell slot.

Then prepare Chain necrotic bloat when you have third level spells, and you can heighten it 21 times (because you don't need 3 of them for Reach), hitting one target for a DC 34+Int Mod, and the rest for DC 30+Int Mod, with fireball-like damage that is fortitude for half and does half the damage as Vile damage (which can't be healed except in a Sanctified place).

The Mother Cyst line of spells just gets nastier, especially with ludicrous saves like this, as you get higher level.

Heighten caps at 9th level spells, so +24 DC isnt possible, you can at best get +9DC to a cantrip.

[Mordante]

That doesn't sound like a party you would want to be a part of. That fight is more powerful then most level 18-20 fighters I think.

Leave and find a decent DM. All the best story lines and parties IMHO don't involve much combat.

[Segev]

Heighten caps at 9th level spells, so +24 DC isnt possible, you can at best get +9DC to a cantrip.

Ah, my mistake.

Still, 9 Slaymates + Heighten will ensure that every one of your Necromancy spells is using 19+Int Mod for the DC, rather than 10+(lower than 9th-level spell level)+Int Mod.

[Quertus]

You could always go the tainted scholar route.

I'll second this.

Look, your GM is… clueless. So hit him with a clue-by-four. Tell him to play your character for a session while you GM, so he can appreciate just how useless you are. Of the tactics I've tried on idiot GMs (and I've had plenty), it's the one I'll argue works best.

[Endarire]

What about going White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold Sorcerer/Incantatrix, considering this GM's power level?

[Vizzerdrix]

Ah, my mistake.

Still, 9 Slaymates + Heighten will ensure that every one of your Necromancy spells is using 19+Int Mod for the DC, rather than 10+(lower than 9th-level spell level)+Int Mod.

1. He would have to find 9 slaymates.
2. He would have to protect 9 slaymates.
3. Eeeeeeew, undead loli harem! :smalltongue:

If you go tainted scholor, you will want to become a necropolitan. I would also recommend spending 100 to 300 years on a plane with the fastest time you can find to stack evolved undead 1 to 3 times, then buying off the LA. That will net you fast healing +3 per LA. You can also look into spell stitching yourself, in case the dm decides to take out your spell book.

[Quertus]

3. Eeeeeeew, undead loli harem! :smalltongue:

Someone needs to make that anime. :smalltongue:


If you go tainted scholor,

Tainted Sorcerer is better.

[Vizzerdrix]

Tainted Sorcerer is better.

Source? My google fu is weak this morning.

[Xervous]

Heroes of horror

[Vizzerdrix]

Heroes of horror

Not a prc or base class with the name tainted sorcerer in HoH. Maybe a variant on an obscure page?

Found it in Unearthed arcana. Pg 191

Ability to take con damage for added metamagic wont work without a con score. Gotta throw my hat to T. Scholar on that alone.

[Segev]

1. He would have to find 9 slaymates.
2. He would have to protect 9 slaymates.
3. Eeeeeeew, undead loli harem! :smalltongue:

1. Slaymates have very clear conditions which cause them to spontaneously arise. Even without create undead and a GM who'll agree that it could make them, you can find or arrange-to-be-created corpses of children who died to a guardian's betrayal or negligence, take them to as unholy a site as you can find, and wait to see what rises from it. Alternatively, Gather Information is good for actually hunting them down, and K:Religion will ensure you know what you're looking for. At that point, you just need command undead to befriend them. Chain command undead, once you have three, will let you befriend whole groups at once.

2. Protecting them is a legitimate concern, but remember that they don't need to go into combat with you. You just need them around you when preparing your spells. Get some hirelings, or otherwise create a protected base camp to leave them at.

3. Please. Kids young enough to arise as slaymates are the same sex as Frisk: "kid." This only becomes more true when they're UNDEAD kids.


On 1, again, though, given that this DM hands out bonuses like Monty Haul had a going-out-of-buisness sale, it shouldn't be too hard to convince him to let you hunt these kiddos down and recruit them. If you're evil, you can arrange their creation by paying some less-than-good parents to abandon their kids, or even to kill them. You do want to make sure the kids don't see your involvement, though, because you're relying on them liking you (admittedly, made easier with command undead, but not guaranteed) to keep them loyal and in line.

If you're either non-evil (and thus not paying for the creation of the raw materials, but just finding victims to work with), or you're a double-crossing jerk, you can even promise your new adopted family revenge and help them take down the neglectful or murderous guardians. Which you can later raise as zombies if you have animate dead or its Pathfinder cousin, lesser animate dead.

[Dracone]

1. Slaymates have very clear conditions which cause them to spontaneously arise. Even without create undead and a GM who'll agree that it could make them, you can find or arrange-to-be-created corpses of children who died to a guardian's betrayal or negligence, take them to as unholy a site as you can find, and wait to see what rises from it. Alternatively, Gather Information is good for actually hunting them down, and K:Religion will ensure you know what you're looking for. At that point, you just need command undead to befriend them. Chain command undead, once you have three, will let you befriend whole groups at once.

2. Protecting them is a legitimate concern, but remember that they don't need to go into combat with you. You just need them around you when preparing your spells. Get some hirelings, or otherwise create a protected base camp to leave them at.

3. Please. Kids young enough to arise as slaymates are the same sex as Frisk: "kid." This only becomes more true when they're UNDEAD kids.


On 1, again, though, given that this DM hands out bonuses like Monty Haul had a going-out-of-buisness sale, it shouldn't be too hard to convince him to let you hunt these kiddos down and recruit them. If you're evil, you can arrange their creation by paying some less-than-good parents to abandon their kids, or even to kill them. You do want to make sure the kids don't see your involvement, though, because you're relying on them liking you (admittedly, made easier with command undead, but not guaranteed) to keep them loyal and in line.

If you're either non-evil (and thus not paying for the creation of the raw materials, but just finding victims to work with), or you're a double-crossing jerk, you can even promise your new adopted family revenge and help them take down the neglectful or murderous guardians. Which you can later raise as zombies if you have animate dead or its Pathfinder cousin, lesser animate dead.
I am absolutely a double crossing jerk. After all I would never explicitly state I wouldn't kill them if they helped me xD. That being said, the DM is perfectly fine with me using create undead to make them. Although I do have to keep them with me in combat due to a house rule (despite being a wizard, I dont prepare spells, I cast straight from my spell book... somehow...) but I already got that figured out. Bag of holding full of dead children, open and pointed at me so the aura spills out of it xD

[Segev]

I am absolutely a double crossing jerk. After all I would never explicitly state I wouldn't kill them if they helped me xD. That being said, the DM is perfectly fine with me using create undead to make them. Although I do have to keep them with me in combat due to a house rule (despite being a wizard, I dont prepare spells, I cast straight from my spell book... somehow...) but I already got that figured out. Bag of holding full of dead children, open and pointed at me so the aura spills out of it xD

"Bag full of dead children?" Oh, no, no. We can do much better than that!

A portable hole stitched to the inside of your cloak will let them sit or stand in comfort, peering out from behind you and between your legs at any who look too closely, indulging in childish giggles when you do something amusing. Preferably to somebody else.

Or an Enveloping Pit; cheaper and bigger than a portable hole, and you ARE evil-aligned so should have no trouble using it. Can even throw weaker enemies into it, making it look as if your cloak swallwed them up, and let the kiddos bite them to death.

You may as well store a few Shadows under your control in there, as well. They can reach out and touch someone if that someone gets too close, or run out to be scouts. Strength damage is mean.

[Dracone]

peering out from behind you and between your legs at any who look too closely, indulging in childish giggles when you do something amusing. Preferably to somebody else.


I love it. The image I have from that is just so incredibly creepy. Maybe I should buy them a music box while Im at it xD

[elonin]

There is no real fix other than to make your case to the DM, and from what you are saying you tried and failed on that route. Trying to use theoretical optimization is only going to convince him he's right. The real problem sounds like an escalating spiral of power that started when s/he made uber powerful characters then scaled up the challenge to match. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with a high power game as long as power between the characters is "somewhat" equal and enjoyed by all.

[legomaster00156]

Breaking a wizard is easy. Lift them into the air, extend your knee, and drop. This message brought to you by the Barbarian club.

[Calthropstu]

Breaking a wizard is easy. Lift them into the air, extend your knee, and drop. This message brought to you by the Barbarian club.

Wait, I are confuzed. Do I uze my barbarian knee or my barbarian club?