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Matthew
2007-10-21, 05:31 PM
The 3.5 version of Power Attack ruined any hope of balance between the various Fighting Styles (Two Handed, Two Weapons, Weapon and Shield). However, the 3.0 version left Two Handed Weapons somewhat hanging.

So, here's my idea for a 3.0 solution:

Two Handed Weapons not only Multiply Strength Bonus to Damage by 1.5, but also Strength Bonus to Hit. The 'Off Hand' multiplies nothing by 0.5.

Arakune
2007-10-21, 06:31 PM
wait, what?:smallconfused:

What were the 3.0 THW, TWF, W&S rules? /Also, the power attack rules?

Matthew
2007-10-25, 10:46 AM
Under 3e rules, Power Attack is 1:1 with all weapons. Two Weapon Fighting can be taken at Level 1, but cost two Feats to get working right, and Improved Two Weapon Fighting has a +9 BAB prerequisite.

Basically:

Battle Axe and Shield = +2 AC, +0 AB, 1D8 + (1.0 x Y) Damage,
Great Axe = +0 AC, +0 AB, 1D12 + (1.5 x Y) Damage
Battle Axe and Hand Axe = +0 AC -2 AB/-2 AB, 1D8 + (1.0 x Y) /1D6 + (0.5 x Y) Damage, (Ambidexterity and Two Weapon Fighting Feats required)

Y = Strength Bonus

Power Attack
Battle Axe and Shield = -X AB, +X DB,
Great Axe = -X AB, +X DB,
Battle Axe and Hand Axe = -X AB, +X/+X DB,

Any more thoughts on this? Nobody play 3.0 any more?

Just to clarify, a Fighter 1 with Strength 15 would add +3 AB and +3 DB from Strength when using a weapon Two Handed, rather than +2 AB and +3 DB.

Jasdoif
2007-10-25, 11:19 AM
Nobody play 3.0 any more?Never have :smalltongue:

I'm curious, though...are weapon/weapon and weapon/shield roughly balanced with each other already, and your change puts two-handed weapons on par with them?

Yakk
2007-10-25, 11:39 AM
So some observations.

1> Power attack should not be worse with a 2 H weapon than a 1 H weapon.

2> If you TWF two normal sized weapons, you get 2x damage from Power attack.

3> TWF is considered a "dexterous" style. Yet under 3.0 and 3.5 rules, 2H is far more mobile -- it can move and deliver a larger percentage of the full attack damage than a TWF.

4> High strength should not favor TWF over 2H fighting.

5> The damage dice from TWF tend to add up to an average between 7 and 9. 2H adds up to between 6.5 and 7 using similar weapons. Call it 8 vs 7.

...

If offhand TWF gets full-damage, then a TWF attack does 8+str*2 damage, while a 2H attack does 7+str*1.5 damage.

That seems strange to me.

The 2H attack becomes more accurate and lower damage, while the TWF attack becomes less accurate and higher damage...

Note that modifiers to d20 rolls are more unstable than modifiers to damage in their impact on the game.

We also have to deal with single-weapon and sword+board styles of combat.

Threeshades
2007-10-25, 11:41 AM
Under 3e rules, Power Attack is 1:1 with all weapons. Two Weapon Fighting can be taken at Level 1, but cost two Feats to get working right, and Improved Two Weapon Fighting has a +9 BAB prerequisite.

Basically:

Battle Axe and Shield = +2 AC, +0 AB, 1D8 + (1.0 x Y) Damage,
Great Axe = +0 AC, +0 AB, 1D12 + (1.5 x Y) Damage
Battle Axe and Hand Axe = +0 AC -2 AB/-2 AB, 1D8 + (1.0 x Y) /1D6 + (0.5 x Y) Damage, (Ambidexterity and Two Weapon Fighting Feats required)

Y = Strength Bonus

Power Attack
Battle Axe and Shield = -X AB, +X DB,
Great Axe = -X AB, +X DB,
Battle Axe and Hand Axe = -X AB, +X/+X DB,

Any more thoughts on this? Nobody play 3.0 any more?

Just to clarify, a Fighter 1 with Strength 15 would add +3 AB and +3 DB from Strength when using a weapon Two Handed, rather than +2 AB and +3 DB.

Our group does. In fact i wasnt really aware of what the 3.5 power attack does.

Arakune
2007-10-25, 11:42 AM
Ah right, when PA didn't make "TWF? are you stupid?" and "THW are better than anything. Not this better. THIS much better"

Matthew
2007-10-25, 03:11 PM
Never have :smalltongue:

I'm curious, though...are weapon/weapon and weapon/shield roughly balanced with each other already, and your change puts two-handed weapons on par with them?

That would be my contention, more or less. Obviously, though, the caveat is that things like Animated Shields have the potential to unbalance such claims.


So some observations.

1> Power attack should not be worse with a 2 H weapon than a 1 H weapon.

Agreed, and I'm not suggesting that it should be. 1:1 is the standard.


2> If you TWF two normal sized weapons, you get 2x damage from Power attack.

Yes you do, but remember that Two Weapon Fighting doesn't work like it does in 3.5. You won't get a fourth Attack until Level 9 and it still doesn't work on a charge.


3> TWF is considered a "dexterous" style. Yet under 3.0 and 3.5 rules, 2H is far more mobile -- it can move and deliver a larger percentage of the full attack damage than a TWF.

Indeed, but in my opinion the realism is subordinate to game considerations.


4> High strength should not favor TWF over 2H fighting.

I would argue that it isn't, but I haven't done the Math either. Remember, under this rules modification, high strength for Two handed Weapons yields an additional bonus to hit which translates as additional damage.


5> The damage dice from TWF tend to add up to an average between 7 and 9. 2H adds up to between 6.5 and 7 using similar weapons. Call it 8 vs 7.

...

If offhand TWF gets full-damage, then a TWF attack does 8+str*2 damage, while a 2H attack does 7+str*1.5 damage.

That seems strange to me.

The 2H attack becomes more accurate and lower damage, while the TWF attack becomes less accurate and higher damage...

Note that modifiers to d20 rolls are more unstable than modifiers to damage in their impact on the game.

We also have to deal with single-weapon and sword+board styles of combat.
Again, remember that Two Weapon Fighting does not garner additional attacks in 3.0 at the rate it does in 3.5. Then there's also the Charging/Standard Attack/Cost limitations associated with Two Weapon Fighting. Personally, I would only be inclined to ever allow one additonal attack with an Off Hand Weapon, but that's perhaps just me.

Anyway, let's take a look what happens on a Full Attack at Level 20:

Fighter 20 (Strength 30, Battle Axe and Shield)
Attack Bonus: 30/25/20/15, Damage: [x4] 1D8+10 (14.5) [+1-20]
or (to compete directly with Two Weapon Fighting)
Attack Bonus: 28/23/18/13, Damage: [x4] 1D8+12 (16.5) [+1-18]
or Half use of Power Attack
Attack Bonus: 20/15/10/5, Damage: [x4] 1D8+20 (24.5) [+1-10]


Fighter 20 (Strength 30, Great Axe)
Attack Bonus: 35/30/25/20, Damage: [x4] 1D12+15
or with Power Attack
Attack Bonus: 30/25/20/15, Damage: [x4] 1D12+20 (26.5) [+1-15]
or to compete directly with Two Weapon Fighting
Attack Bonus: 28/23/18/13, Damage: [x4] 1D12+22 (28.5) [+1-13]
or
Attack Bonus: 20/15/10/5, Damage: [x4] 1D12+30 (36.5) [+1-5]

Fighter 20 (Strength 30, Battle Axe and Hand Axe)
Attack Bonus: 28/28/23/23/18/13, Damage: [x4] 1D8+10 (14.5) [+1-15] / [x2] 1D6+10 (13.5) [+1-15]
or
Attack Bonus: 20/20/15/15/10/5, Damage: [x4] 1D8+18 (22.5) [+1-7] / [x2] 1D6+18 (21.5) [+1-7]

Assuming all hits on the last iteration (i.e. AC 6 and no 1's)

Weapon and Shield = (24.5 x 4) = 98
Two Handed Weapon = (36.5 x 4) = 146
Two Weapon Fighting = (22.5 x 4) + (21.5 x 2) = 135

That, in conjunction with the various limitations set by Actions and Magic Item cost, looks to me to be a hell of a lot easier to balance than the 3.5 version. Fighter A has a Weapon and Shield to enchant, Fighter B only has to enchant a Weapon and Fighter C has two Weapons to enchant. The Power Attack benefits for Two Weapon Fighting are better than for the other two, but they are also limited in terms of the Full Attack Action, Feat investment and Attribute requirements.


Our group does. In fact i wasnt really aware of what the 3.5 power attack does.

Good for you. It's one of the worst thought out aspects of 3.5.


Ah right, when PA didn't make "TWF? are you stupid?" and "THW are better than anything.

Indeed.

Yakk
2007-10-25, 03:54 PM
BTW, an alternative fix for power attack is to allow the player to trade off Str bonus to hit for Str bonus to damage.

Then further enhancements to Power attack can be made with feats that either up the limit, or up the efficiency. It is easier to control than the 3.5/3.0 Power Attack, at the very least.

It also makes Power Attack a very strength-dependent feat, which fits the fluff better than the current level-dependent feat.

...



2> If you TWF two normal sized weapons, you get 2x damage from Power attack.
Yes you do, but remember that Two Weapon Fighting doesn't work like it does in 3.5. You won't get a fourth Attack until Level 9 and it still doesn't work on a charge.

While things should be balanced at the top, the road is the point of the game, not the destination.

At level 5, your power attacking TWF is doing more bonus damage from Power Attack than the THF is.

...

Stuff like this:
2H weapons deal 1x your strength bonus.
Offhand weapons deal 0.5x your strength bonus.

Power Attack: You may sacrifice a X points of strength bonus to hit in exchange for X points of strength bonus to damage. You cannot completely eliminate your strength bonus to hit this way.

Two Handed Combat: You deal 1.5 times your strength bonus, rounded up, when you hit with a two handed weapon. (instead of 1.0 times).

Two Handed Power Blow: In exchange for taking a -2 to hit when attacking with a two handed weapon, your two handed hit automatically threatens a x2 crit. This adds a +x1 if the roll would have actually threatened a crit.

Two Weapon Fighting: At any time, you may choose to take a -2 penalty on all attacks until your next round in order to activate Two Weapon Fighting. Until your next round, whenever you hit with your main weapon, you may make a free attack at the same BaB penalty with your offhand.

Two Weapon Flurry: When you activate Two Weapon Fighting in a full attack, your offhand attacks occur even if your main hand attacks miss.

Weapon Finess: When attacking with a light or finess weapon, you may use either your strength bonus plus one half of your dex bonus, or your dex bonus plus one half of your strength bonus as your attribute based to-hit modifier.

Improved Weapon Finess: You may deal the average of your strength and dexterty bonus to damage instead of your strength bonus when using the Weapon Finess feat. This also works on offhand attacks, and replaces the one half strength bonus there.

...

Note that because Power Attack scales with strength, it doesn't get stupid.

On a 1H attack, you get 1.0x your penalty to damage.
On a 2H attack, you get 1.5x your penalty to damage.
On a TWF attack, you get 1.5x your penalty to damage.
On a TWF Finess attack, you only get 1.0x your penalty to damage.

TWF Finess deals Str+Dex +Power*1 bonus damage.
TWF deals Str*1.5+Power*1.5 bonus damage.
1HF deals Str*1+Power*1 bonus damage.
2HF deals Str*1.5+Power*1.5 bonus damage.

TWF when mobile gets to attack with the offhand if the mainhand misses.
2HF gets mechanically a similar effect, with an auto 2x crit to confirm.

Shield styles still need work. I'd recommend a "block action" that lets you soak an incoming attack on your shield (where you do an opposed attack roll, and if successful roll your "shield damage", and that much damage is soaked).

The block only has a 50-50 chance of working on equal opponents, and when it does it can be tuned to block about half of the damage (ie, die roll + str*.5 soaked) of a 1HF attack.

But I guess this is moving further away from 3.0 TWF. :)

Matthew
2007-10-25, 04:44 PM
BTW, an alternative fix for power attack is to allow the player to trade off Str bonus to hit for Str bonus to damage.

Then further enhancements to Power attack can be made with feats that either up the limit, or up the efficiency. It is easier to control than the 3.5/3.0 Power Attack, at the very least.

It also makes Power Attack a very strength-dependent feat, which fits the fluff better than the current level-dependent feat.

Honestly, I hate tying Attributes to Feats. I think it is a terrible idea to seek to do so. That's just my opinion, of course.


While things should be balanced at the top, the road is the point of the game, not the destination.

At level 5, your power attacking TWF is doing more bonus damage from Power Attack than the THF is.

Not really, but let's check it out...


Level 5 Fighter (Two Handed Weapon)
Attack Bonus: 5, Damage: 1D12 (6.5)
Feats: Power Attack

Level 5 Fighter (Two Weapons)
Attack Bonus: 3/3 Damage: 1D8 (4.5) / 1D6 3.5
Feats: Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack,

Once you start factoring in Attributes, Feats and Magic, there isn't going to be a clear winner, but let's try with Strength. Assuming an Elite Spread, we're looking at:


Level 5 Fighter (Two Handed Weapon)
Attributes: Strength 16
Attack Bonus: 9, Damage: 1D12+4 (10.5)
Feats: Power Attack

Level 5 Fighter (Two Weapons)
Attributes: Strength 15
Attack Bonus: 5/5 Damage: 1D8+2 (6.5) / 1D6+2 5.5
Feats: Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack,

But even if we assume both are fortunate enough to have Strength 18, we're still looking at:


Level 5 Fighter (Two Handed Weapon)
Attributes: Strength 18
Attack Bonus: 11, Damage: 1D12+6 (12.5)
Feats: Power Attack

Level 5 Fighter (Two Weapons)
Attributes: Strength 15
Attack Bonus: 7/7 Damage: 1D8+4 (8.5) / 1D6+4 7.5
Feats: Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack,

Against high AC foes, the Two Handed Weapon Fighter is almost always going to be at an advantage, whilst low AC foes have to be very low for the Two Weapon Fighter to derive an advantage. For the Two Weapon Fighter's ability to make more Bonus Damage from Power Attack to matter, he has to have a better or equal AB than the Two Handed Fighter, which is rather the point of allowing Strength multiplication to affect AB as well as DB.

The problem you seem to be addressing is achieving balance in one section, rather than looking at how the various sections balance one another out.

If I had the time to spare, I would factor in some 3.0 Feats and typical Magic and do the maths, but those are very subjective and I don't have the time to explore this fully right now.

Yakk
2007-10-26, 10:58 AM
With the 18 strength fighter, if the THF takes a -4 to hit power attack, he does 16.5 damage at +7 to hit.

Meanwhile, the TWF does 16.0 damage at +7/+7 to hit.

Each additional point of power attack gives the TWF +2 damage and the THF +1 damage.

So ya -- it does look like the THF comes out on top, to the degree that TWF is still useless.

...

I am very leery of adding even more bonuses to d20 rolls. Already by L 10, RAW D&D ends up with the d20 roll system collapsing, as the magnitude of roll modifiers grows out of control: increasing the size of d20 modifiers will make it fall apart earlier.

Tieing feats to attributes makes lots of sense, especially things like Power Attack. Power Attack consists of hitting something really hard, doesn't it make sense that this is tied to Strength?

I dislike the "you need to be this tall to play" feats, like combat expertise -- but feats that simply leverage attributes (like combat reflexes or weapon finess) seem to work fine.

Matthew
2007-10-27, 10:39 AM
With the 18 strength fighter, if the THF takes a -4 to hit power attack, he does 16.5 damage at +7 to hit.

Meanwhile, the TWF does 16.0 damage at +7/+7 to hit.

Each additional point of power attack gives the TWF +2 damage and the THF +1 damage.

So ya -- it does look like the THF comes out on top, to the degree that TWF is still useless.

Not really useless, in my opinion, just 'more or less balanced'. Of course, the conditions in which combat take place matter a lot in these theoretical scenarios, as the AB, AC, Hit Points, etc... and sheer number of opponents tip the balance one way or another with regard to which style has the advantage. The point is just to prevent one style from becoming the 'outright winner'. In 3.0, Two Handed Weapons were of limited use (essentially trading a DB of around 2-8 points for 1-7 AC), but in 3.5 they are over useful; however, a lot of even that supposition is a result of Monsters with a *lot* of Hit Points being standard opponents.


I am very leery of adding even more bonuses to d20 rolls. Already by L 10, RAW D&D ends up with the d20 roll system collapsing, as the magnitude of roll modifiers grows out of control: increasing the size of d20 modifiers will make it fall apart earlier.

Don't forget, this is 3.0 we're talking about, the sheer number of options are considerably fewer. Of course, I can appreciate the concern, as I agree that the number of modifiers in D20 is a worry. In this case, though, I'm not too worried about it, as this is intended as an underlying mechanic, rather than something added on top. I would be more inclined to take away other modifiers than this one. It serves to help balance Two Handed Weapons against Weapon and Shield (by creating an AB/DB to AC trade off, rather than just DB to AC) and Two Weapon Fighting (by trading the same against number of Attacks).


Tieing feats to attributes makes lots of sense, especially things like Power Attack. Power Attack consists of hitting something really hard, doesn't it make sense that this is tied to Strength?

It may make sense in a conceptual manner, but that's probably the least important aspect when balancing mechanics. Tying this sort of stuff to Attributes, rather than Levels, makes it much harder to predict, regulate and balance the power of characters over levels. If only one thing has helped to unbalance 3e it has been the open ended nature of Attributes, as their variability is only very loosely tied to level.


I dislike the "you need to be this tall to play" feats, like combat expertise -- but feats that simply leverage attributes (like combat reflexes or weapon finess) seem to work fine.

See, Weapon Finesse I think is fine, because it replaces one Attribute with another, so it's not actually changing the underlying mechanic. Combat Reflexes is an awful Feat, though, as it basically creates a +1000% difference between a Character with Attribute +0 and a Character with Attribute +10. Most importantly, it's almost completely unrelated to level, as even a Level 1 Character can have a +500% difference. I do agree that the [Prerequisite Attribute X [Y+]) can be infuriating.

Obviously, we may just be coming at the game from two different directions. I think Level should be the most important factor in determining character power and the importance of Attributes minimised as much as possible, but that's just my opinion.

Yakk
2007-10-28, 12:46 PM
That is a good point: tie things somewhat to level.

What about:
Combat Reflexes


You gain 2 additional AoO. For every 4 points of (Dex bonus plus Character level), you gain yet another AoO.

Note that you can only use one AoO in response to a single provocation.

Example: Ted the L 13 Rogue has 22 dex. His dex bonus plus character level is 19, which means he has 6 AoO per round.

When Ted levels to L 14, he gains an additional AoO.

This creates a sliding scale. Having extra Dex bonus gives you extra AoO earlier, and eventually gives you more AoO to a limited extent.

This makes the higher Dex useful, but not dominating over level. It also makes the base feat level (you get 2 bonus AoO from the feat, even if you are L 1 with bad dexterity).

The HP of opponents follows the player's ability to do damage to them. A monster who dies in one blow isn't as interesting as a longer battle usually.