Multiclass Rogue 11/-

[DrLoveMonkey]

So I'm in a DnD game, level 14 now, and I'm finding I'm just not at all excited about what's coming up. Going twice on the first turn of combat is cool from the Thief subclass, but other than that not so much. Blindsense and Elusive feel situationational enough to be near useless, and Slippery Mind, while useful, isn't very punchy.

I've talked with my DM and he agreed that if I wanted to change things up that could happen. The character in question recently had a small God living inside his hand who's free now so that really opens a lot of avenues to doing things over. The rest of the party is a samurai, illusionist and hexblade.

Given circumstances I was thinking about cross classing keeping 11 of rogue and going the rest life cleric because it fits so well with the story, we have a tome of +2 Wis and gives a slew of healing and buff abilities. I don't know if that's just going to be bad though. In keeping with the really quick and tricky nature I was also contemplating battlemaster.

I'm not really concerned with optimizing, I just don't want to be complete garbage and wouldn't mind some more fun interesting things to get access to. So I'm wondering if I'm looking down a dead end here or am missing a great opportunity somewhere else.

[OldTrees1]

Rogue 11 is a great path for a skill based character (aka all Rogues that know they are more than a fistful of d6s).

Personally I went Knowledge Cleric 1 -> Arcane Trickster 11 and it made a satisfying 16th level character (despite only 12 levels). That is how impressive Expertise and Reliable can be in allowing a skill based character to make their mark.

Beyond Rogue 11 is
Blindsense (very useful for my Dungeon Rogue. With the Rogue speed this is almost Blindsight)
Wisdom Save Proficiency (redundant for me but allows most Rogues hit all 3 important saves)

So while higher level Rogue has its merit. You already got your capstone at 11th level. Everything you get now, even via multiclassing, is just window dressing.

[Expected]

Since you're interested in playing a Cleric and your DM has allowed you to rebuild your character, how about a pure Arcana Cleric?

If you choose VHuman as a race, you can take Magic Initiate: Druid for Shillelagh, Thorn Whip, and Absorb Elements. Shillelagh allows you to be SAD with Wisdom and synergizes well with the Tome of Understanding that your party has found. For your Wizard Cantrips, choose Booming Blade and one other of your choice. Take the Azorius Functionary background from GGTR for Counterspell.

The idea is to Max Wis and take Resilient: Constitution and War Caster to focus on doing damage with Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, and OA Booming Blades. You can do whatever you want with your action but taking the Dodge action or attacking with Booming Blade using a quarterstaff with Shillelagh cast constantly are effective choices. Don medium armor and a shield and you'll be difficult to deal with.

Credit for the build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23794664&postcount=1) goes to LudicSavant.

[kazaryu]

Given circumstances I was thinking about cross classing keeping 11 of rogue and going the rest life cleric because it fits so well with the story, we have a tome of +2 Wis and gives a slew of healing and buff abilities. I don't know if that's just going to be bad though. In keeping with the really quick and tricky nature I was also contemplating battlemaster.



Is there a particular reason you're thinking life cleric?
If cleric is on the yable there are some other good options.
Knowledge: free expertise' and a rotating skill proficiency. Abuse the **** out of your reliable talent.
War: bonus action attack that gets your dex mod *and* channel divinty to basically guarantee a hit so you can SA, also has a pretty incredible domain spell list, capping out with freedom of movement.
Trickery: youre a rogue...nuff said

That aside a paladin dip could also be solid: smite spells+divine smite+sneak attack is a lot of burst damage. Obviously wouldnt benefit from the wisdom book though. On the other hand if youre able to shift ability scores around, devotion paladin can let you add cha to your to-hit. (1min/sr).

Moving back to wisdom: monk is a good option, youve already got dex, and are planning to boost wis. Menawhile their stunning strike means you have the chance to gice youraelf sneak attack. Way of the open palm also has a few options that are similar to battlemaster, whereas shadow has more sneaky options.

[JellyPooga]

From the OP, I surmise you're currently a Thief Rogue 14, correct?

I cannot recommend more that you retain Rogue 13 for UMD...that feature, alone, opens up huge potential. Look into using magical Staves and Wands to open up your versatility. Instead of multiclassing Cleric, look at getting a Staff of Healing, perhaps? A couple of levels of Cleric will get you Healing Word and Cure Wounds, but the Staff will get you access to much higher level and more versatile healing. Other Staves will grant you access to a host of other options and playstyles too.

The fact is, that Thief Rogue can feel underwhelming after level 10 if you're not building up to or taking advantage of UMD. That one feature really defines the Thief in Tier 3, so go out of your way to use it. You may find your disillusionment allayed (and seriously, don't underestimate that lvl.17 feature...Rogue is one of the only Classes that's actually worth riding all the way to 20 and I'd be loathe to miss rthe opportunity).

[CTurbo]

I think every Rogue feature is useful. The class's lvl 14 Blindsense, lvl 15 Slippery Mind, and lvl 18 Elusive are all solid features, and the subclass's lvl 13 Use Magic Device and lvl 17 Stroke of Luck are both GREAT not to mention having a late extra ASI is always great too.

I would stay full class until at the very least 17. You could grab Magic Initiate: Cleric to get your Cleric feel.

If you do decide to take some Cleric levels, I recommend either Arcana, Trickery, or War. A quick Cleric dip does get you some good stuff like Guidance, BLESS, some healing, and shields. Of course with Fast Hands, the Healer feat is always a solid choice for adding some extra healing to your character.

[clash]

If you wanted to double down on reliable talent as the rogue capstone and still get the cleric feel I would go bard. Bard gives you healing and buffing as well as extra skill proficiencies and expertise and check with your dm but I believe raw Jack of all trades lets reliable talent apply to every skill whether you are proficient in it or not.

[JNAProductions]

If you wanted to double down on reliable talent as the rogue capstone and still get the cleric feel I would go bard. Bard gives you healing and buffing as well as extra skill proficiencies and expertise and check with your dm but I believe raw Jack of all trades lets reliable talent apply to every skill whether you are proficient in it or not.

RAW, Jack Of All Trades works with Reliable Talent.

Pretty sure that a JC tweet said that's not intended, though-and even beyond that, I certainly wouldn't allow it. While not every DM would rule the same as me, that's definitely something to ASK before you plan around it.

[DrLoveMonkey]

Hah! The funny thing is I’ve actually got a lot of what’s been suggested. I’m a level 14 thief with the Healer and Magic Initiate (cleric) feats, grabbing Guidance and Bless. I even have a Staff of Healing. They’re working out pretty well for me so far. I hadn’t really considered Monk so I’ll definitely have a look into that.

The Life subclass was being leaned towards because the goddess of healing was the one hitching a ride in my hand for the first half of the campaign, hence the healer feat and eventual staff of healing. I could maybe bend it to a different domain though.

I’m still not convinced about Blindsense or Elusive though. Blindsense is only useful if a creature is hidden within 10 feet before they start an ambush, and arguably it doesn’t even negate the disadvantage of fighting an enemy you can’t see. With how few enemies often employ invisibility I just can’t see it being used more than once in the next 6 levels. Elusive is a bit better, but we’re not playing with flanking so the only time enemies get advantage is from abilities really, and some of those like Hold Person or Sleep incap me anyway which cancels Elusive.

Compare that to a battle master where I’m firing off trip and disarming attacks all the time, or a cleric where I’m healing up the party between battles and have access to that big spell list.

[RogueJK]

or a cleric where I’m healing up the party between battles and have access to that big spell list.

Dipping Cleric is potentially useful, but keep in mind that the equivalent of a 3rd level Cleric will be rather limited in what they can do at 14th level, healing-wise.

A 3rd level Cleric has only 4x 1st level slots and 2x 2nd level slots. That's not nothing, but in a 14th level party with each character having like 80-120+ HP, that's not a whole ton of healing, comparatively. Especially since you'll likely be using some of the spell slots for other useful Cleric spells like Bless.

Therefore, if your main purpose in choosing Cleric is for its healing spells, you should consider changing your Rogue subclass to Arcane Trickster too, which would boost your healing spells a bit more. An Arcane Trickster 11/Life Cleric 3 would have the equivalent of 6 Cleric levels for calculating spells slots, with 4x 1st, 3x 2nd, and 3x 3rd level slots. That'll give you not only more slots, but also 3rd level slots to upcast healing spells like Cure Wounds or Prayer of Healing. And you'd have access to 4x Wizard Cantrips and 8x 1st/2nd level Wizard spells to boot.

The slight downside is that this Arcane Trickster route is potentially a bit more MAD than just a Thief/Cleric, needing to focus on DEX, some INT, and some WIS. However, if you just focus on buffing and healing Cleric spells in place of attack/save type Cleric spells, you can get by with just a 14ish WIS for multiclassing purposes, with the WIS Tome plus your Disciple of Life ability more than making up for the lesser WIS on your healing spells. And you can get by with a middling INT too. If you're stealthy, Magical Ambush can help with having a lower spell DC from a middling INT. Or, I would suggest just focusing on more on combat buffs and out of combat creative/utility type Wizard spells instead of attack/control/debuff spells that require attack rolls or enemy saves. (Especially since many of your spell slots will be used for Cleric spells anyway.) Useful picks for non-INT-dependent Arcane Trickster spells would be stuff like:

Cantrips: Mage Hand (mandatory) plus three from Green Flame Blade/Booming Blade, Message, Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion, or the various element manipulation spells
1st: Disguise Self, Silent Image
2nd: Blur, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Shadow Blade
And two "any school" spell picks from Shield, Absorb Elements, and Find Familiar.

[CTurbo]

Hah! The funny thing is I’ve actually got a lot of what’s been suggested. I’m a level 14 thief with the Healer and Magic Initiate (cleric) feats, grabbing Guidance and Bless. I even have a Staff of Healing. They’re working out pretty well for me so far. I hadn’t really considered Monk so I’ll definitely have a look into that.

The Life subclass was being leaned towards because the goddess of healing was the one hitching a ride in my hand for the first half of the campaign, hence the healer feat and eventual staff of healing. I could maybe bend it to a different domain though.

I’m still not convinced about Blindsense or Elusive though. Blindsense is only useful if a creature is hidden within 10 feet before they start an ambush, and arguably it doesn’t even negate the disadvantage of fighting an enemy you can’t see. With how few enemies often employ invisibility I just can’t see it being used more than once in the next 6 levels. Elusive is a bit better, but we’re not playing with flanking so the only time enemies get advantage is from abilities really, and some of those like Hold Person or Sleep incap me anyway which cancels Elusive.

Compare that to a battle master where I’m firing off trip and disarming attacks all the time, or a cleric where I’m healing up the party between battles and have access to that big spell list.

If you already have Magic Initiate: Cleric and a Staff of Healing, the I recommend dipping Cleric even less. Unless you can change the Magic Initiate to something else like Wizard.

A fun idea though in regards to the Goddess of Healing.... you could take some levels of Celestial Warlock with the goddess as your patron. 3 levels gets you either an intelligent familiar or Tome for ALL the rituals! Either are great for a Rogue. Blade pact isn't bad but I like the other 2 options better. This is of course assuming you have a decent Cha which is not a very reliable assumption to make.


If your Cha sucks, you could consider a few Druid levels. The Druid shares many spells with the Cleric and being able to turn into animals is GREAT for scouting.


I'm just throwing out other options. If you want to take some Cleric levels, I say go for it. It would work out just fine.

[kazaryu]

The Life subclass was being leaned towards because the goddess of healing was the one hitching a ride in my hand for the first half of the campaign, hence the healer feat and eventual staff of healing. I could maybe bend it to a different domain though.


Yeah, most gods arent just a single domain, buts gonna be DM dependant. But as someone pointed out, youre not going to be doing a whole lot of out of combat healing with the cleric levels (staff of healing/healer feat are a whole different story, those'll be solid and mcing cleric doesnt megate them, although you may need to do 12 rogue in order to keep the feat idk). However options like detect magic/poison/evil can be handy. Sanctuary will mitigate how badly you get hurt if you get ganked while sneaking. Shield of faith means you can give allies AC (and really damage prevention tends to be worth more than damage healing).
The goal would imo be to grab spells that scale well regardless. Hold person, protection from evil, enhance ability, silence, etc.

Obviously this list isnt comprehensive.




Compare that to a battle master where I’m firing off trip and disarming attacks all the time, or a cleric where I’m healing up the party between battles and have access to that big spell list.

Problem is that you wont get as many opportunities to use battlemaster dice and youre unlikely to be able to benefit from their effects. Also the saves tend to be based on str which is prolly gonna be rough for you.

[DrLoveMonkey]

A fun idea though in regards to the Goddess of Healing.... you could take some levels of Celestial Warlock with the goddess as your patron. 3 levels gets you either an intelligent familiar or Tome for ALL the rituals! Either are great for a Rogue. Blade pact isn't bad but I like the other 2 options better. This is of course assuming you have a decent Cha which is not a very reliable assumption to make.

That's an interesting idea that I didn't think of!



Problem is that you wont get as many opportunities to use battlemaster dice and youre unlikely to be able to benefit from their effects. Also the saves tend to be based on str which is prolly gonna be rough for you.

From what I'm seeing the DC on any Battlemaster effect goes of the higher of Strength or Dexterity, no?

[djreynolds]

I think every Rogue feature is useful. The class's lvl 14 Blindsense, lvl 15 Slippery Mind, and lvl 18 Elusive are all solid features, and the subclass's lvl 13 Use Magic Device and lvl 17 Stroke of Luck are both GREAT not to mention having a late extra ASI is always great too.

I would stay full class until at the very least 17. You could grab Magic Initiate: Cleric to get your Cleric feel.

If you do decide to take some Cleric levels, I recommend either Arcana, Trickery, or War. A quick Cleric dip does get you some good stuff like Guidance, BLESS, some healing, and shields. Of course with Fast Hands, the Healer feat is always a solid choice for adding some extra healing to your character.

yes slippery mind.

[pming]

Hiya!


So I'm in a DnD game, level 14 now, and I'm finding I'm just not at all excited about what's coming up. Going twice on the first turn of combat is cool from the Thief subclass, but other than that not so much. Blindsense and Elusive feel situationational enough to be near useless, and Slippery Mind, while useful, isn't very punchy.

This is a bit of an aside, but...what kind of DM do you have? Because, honestly, that will determine the "mechanics" of 5e more than any other factor. The reason I'm bringing this up is that if you have a DM/group that is "all about the rules" (even if they claim to be otherwise), then yeah...seeing as you guys are using the optional Multiclassing rules...going down another path could be an interesting RP'ing, and mechanics, road. However...

...if you have a DM that is more "guidelines and whatnot" than "rules and specifics", just try using your Thief abilities in a different way. Blindsense..."I'm not going to turn my head around to see who it is. Can I use my Blindsense to figure out who it is trying to sneak up on me?". Elusive, Slippery Mind, and others might have other 'uses' that you could use them for. I know that I, as a DM, find GREAT enjoyment of my Players trying to use their 'stuff' in out-of-the-box ways. Then again, I treat virtually all (not ALL, but almost all) of the rules as they were intended: Guidelines for running a fantasy RPG session and campaign.

Anyway, gotta run right now. Just figured I'd toss out the cookie of "using abilities in a non-raw way" as a possibility.

[Dork_Forge]

What are your stats and what's your go to in combat?

You already have MI:Cleric and a Staff of Healing, I'd probably only drop one Rogue level (keeping UMD and the ASI) and either pick up a single Cleric level or something else entirely (dependent on your stats).

[Mutazoia]

Start taking Druid levels. You'll gain access to some decent support spells, including one of the most broken healing spells in the game "Healing Spirit". Add in the ability to wild-shape and backstab as a bear....

[RogueJK]

Start taking Druid levels. You'll gain access to some decent support spells, including one of the most broken healing spells in the game "Healing Spirit". Add in the ability to wild-shape and backstab as a bear....

Besides the fact that Sneak Attack can't be used with a Wild Shape animal's attack since it's not a Finesse or Ranged weapon, a 34 HP, 11 AC bear will last all of 1 hit or so against the kind of high level opponents and spells you'll be facing at 14th level. (That's equivalent to like a 4th level PC wearing zero armor. And it's a CR1 creature, which means that a party of four 1st level characters should be able to handle it.)

So if you were to grab 2-3 levels of Moon Druid, you could turn into a bear in Round 1, then take a hit and drop out of Wild Shape, then turn back into a bear in Round 2, then take a hit and drop out of Wild Shape, and then you'd have to find something else to do from Rounds 3+. And any damage over 34 points gets rolled into your normal form's HPs, so you'll be taking that excess damage every round. Any attacks you manage to land during the brief time that you're Wild Shaped will mostly be resisted or even do zero damage, because your Wild Shape attacks won't be considered magical weapons, a feature that Moon Druids don't get until Level 6.

So all you're gaining is the ability to suck up part of 2 hits, in exchange for multiple character levels, actions, and character resources. You can achieve the same effect with something as simple as two low level summoned creatures, and your PC will be free to do other things, free to spend those levels on other things, and you won't be sucking up the excess damage every time your bear gets obliterated in one hit by that Adult Dragon.


Moon Druid's Combat Wild Shape is heavily Druid level dependent, with a constant arms race to keep up with enemy power levels. And even then, a single-classed Moon Druids' Wild Shape starts to slide in effectiveness a bit in levels 7-9ish and levels 15+. Just a few levels in another class leaves a Moon Druid nearly hopelessly behind the Wild Shape curve, let alone 11 levels. Even for a single class Moon Druid, the bear form is a good option for levels 2-3 and a decent option for levels 4-5, and then it's time to move on to something better.

Moon Druid is not something that you dip into for a few levels, unless you're running a strictly low level (1-4ish) adventure, in which case dipping 2 levels of Moon Druid from another class could be fun and effective. Otherwise, it's basically mandatory that you stay a single-classed Moon Druid, with the exception of a very few worthwhile options for dipping into another class for 1 level for a specific purposes, such as a Moon Druid dipping 1 level of Monk or perhaps Barbarian for Unarmored Defense to boost the AC of their Wild Shape forms.

If you just want to dip Druid for a few levels for some low level healing/utility spells and some out of combat scouting/exploration Wild Shape uses, you can do that more effectively with a non-Moon Druid.

[DrLoveMonkey]

Hiya!
...if you have a DM that is more "guidelines and whatnot" than "rules and specifics", just try using your Thief abilities in a different way. Blindsense..."I'm not going to turn my head around to see who it is. Can I use my Blindsense to figure out who it is trying to sneak up on me?". Elusive, Slippery Mind, and others might have other 'uses' that you could use them for. I know that I, as a DM, find GREAT enjoyment of my Players trying to use their 'stuff' in out-of-the-box ways. Then again, I treat virtually all (not ALL, but almost all) of the rules as they were intended: Guidelines for running a fantasy RPG session and campaign.

Unfortunately my DM is very RAW. I was actually going to say "For example Blindsense doesn't let you see invisible creatures, only know their location, so it wouldn't negate their advantage/disadvantage for attacking them." but then I looked it up on Sage Advice just to double check and apparently it DOES do that, it's just not explicit in the rules.


What are your stats and what's your go to in combat?

Well we're using the Standard Array, but I have permission to swap that around as much as I like when I do the overhaul. You can think of it almost like a complete character redesign, although I'd like to keep it small if possible. My current go-to for combat is to either hang back and bounce between hiding and sniping with my Oathbow or getting up close with the Scimitar of Speed.


Start taking Druid levels. You'll gain access to some decent support spells, including one of the most broken healing spells in the game "Healing Spirit". Add in the ability to wild-shape and backstab as a bear....

We've houseruled Healing Spirit just because it's wildly out of scope with similar level healing spells.

[Dork_Forge]

Well we're using the Standard Array, but I have permission to swap that around as much as I like when I do the overhaul. You can think of it almost like a complete character redesign, although I'd like to keep it small if possible. My current go-to for combat is to either hang back and bounce between hiding and sniping with my Oathbow or getting up close with the Scimitar of Speed.
.

You have a very nice set of magic items! I'd recommend dropping one Rogue level for Fighter and then working your way towards Battle Master, that should mix up your combat and give you some options (if using UA Class Variants then out of combat options too). Fighting Style wise its wide open to you, snipe better with Archery, lay down a decent amount more hurt with Dueling or just bump your AC if you find it a bit lacking. If you go this route you should end up with a nice blend of at will, short rest and long rest abilities that will keep you well rounded in and out of combat (maneuvers, Action Surge, Staff of Healing and MI:Cleric).

[kazaryu]

From what I'm seeing the DC on any Battlemaster effect goes of the higher of Strength or Dexterity, no?
ah, so it is. fair enough, the more important point was that with fewer attacks per action, you're going to have more trouble capitilizing on it. i stand by my cleric recommendations, although to be honest im a bit of a cleric fanboy. so...take that as you will.



3 levels gets you either an intelligent familiar or Tome for ALL the rituals!

ALL the rituals....up to lvl 2. book of ancient secrets is limited to half your warlock level rounded up. i.e. the level of spells you can learn as a warlock. i just looked this up because of a different thread lmao. now granted, there are still alot of good rituals at low levels, especially since you're not limited by spell list.