Character concept: tiefling warlock who is secretly a paladin.. How would you do it?

[dehro]

As a thought exercise (not tied to any particular game I'm playing or planning to play) I am considering what the combo in the title would look like and whether it could be effective.
The crucial balancing issue coming from the fact that I would like to keep his paladinhood secret for as long as possible, both mechanically and in game... But without his warlock abilities falling impossibly short.

The idea is that he presents himself as a warlock and ostensibly uses only warlock abilities and abilities that fall within the warlock scope..
..either playing a support character who is mostly useful out of combat (until he reveals himself), or aiming at a more melee oriented warlock who just holds back on the smiting..
Until the campaign/plot justifies him revealing his true allegiances, status and powers.

As a character concept I like it a lot from a narrative perspective, but... Is it playable or would it just fall behind/fail to be useful in any way?
How would you do it?

The only restrictions would be the setting, faerun, the tiefling race and that warlock and paladin should be the only classes..

[8wGremlin]

You’ll need dex and light armour only for starts.
And you’ll need eldritch blast and hex so can’t really do that until 4th level with magic initiate.

That’s just for starters.

[dehro]

Sounds like a good start.
With an eye on eventually multiclassing into paladin, would you go utility warlock or melee?

[kazaryu]

As a thought exercise (not tied to any particular game I'm playing or planning to play) I am considering what the combo in the title would look like and whether it could be effective.
The crucial balancing issue coming from the fact that I would like to keep his paladinhood secret for as long as possible, both mechanically and in game... But without his warlock abilities falling impossibly short.

The idea is that he presents himself as a warlock and ostensibly uses only warlock abilities and abilities that fall within the warlock scope..
..either playing a support character who is mostly useful out of combat (until he reveals himself), or aiming at a more melee oriented warlock who just holds back on the smiting..
Until the campaign/plot justifies him revealing his true allegiances, status and powers.

As a character concept I like it a lot from a narrative perspective, but... Is it playable or would it just fall behind/fail to be useful in any way?
How would you do it?

The only restrictions would be the setting, faerun, the tiefling race and that warlock and paladin should be the only classes..

The real question is: who are you trying to keep it a secret from. Other players? Or just other PCs? If other pcs then this should be fairly easy to pull off depending on the dm.

If keeping it a secret from the players: well in terms of viability you only need 2 levels of warlock to not fall behind. Agonizing blast+hex keeps your at-will damage on par with martials. For your second invocation you could grab repelling blast, which gives you some comabt utility. Alternatively you could instead grab somethingnlike mask of many faces for out of combat utility. Either way it shouldnt fall flat. Hexblade warlock means you dont even need str/dex for your to-hit. So you dont need to worry about fall off when you switch to melee. It also gives you an excuse to go melee on occasion.

Spell selection can also work in your favor, take a look at spells that exist on both lists. For example: protection from evil. If you can pick up booming blade or gfb, that can help disguise your lack of multiattack at lvl 5. Things like that

Now, obviously if you're holding back on your paladin abilities you wont be as strong as you *could* be. But you should be able to not feel useless

[T.G. Oskar]

There's a lot of things to evaluate.

From what it seems, you intend to start as Warlock and then MC into Paladin. Could be the opposite, but makes it harder to work with. The race is mostly irrelevant, in that you don't intend to change it for the flavor, so no need to focus on it (perhaps tweak your choices with the Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes variant tieflings, but that's about it), so you'll have to determine just how deep you'll go into each class.

As a Warlock/Paladin (or viceversa), you'll be a warrior, so that means Hexblade is the most likely option. I can also suggest either Celestial or Fey. The other choice is the harder one; the Paladin subclass. I could see various mixes:


Hexblade/Conquest: you're not exactly nice, using fear as a weapon. You won't be able to use Lay on Hands, and you'll have to explain your Divine Sense in some way (perhaps saying you used Detect Evil or Good). As a Hexblade, you can justify some of the Paladin smites, and eventually the Divine Smite ability (Hexblades gain access to Eldritch Smite anyways). You should focus on wearing armor as a Hexblade would. Maybe refluff the fear CD as a spell, and avoid using Guided Strike as much as possible. You'll end up with a warrior that has an unnerving effect when facing frightened enemies (due to the Aura), capable of relying on your cantrips and spells, and maybe using Invocations to amp up your curses and intimidating effects (Cloak of Flies works great for this kind of build). I could see 7 or 8 levels of Paladin and the rest in Warlock.
Archfey/Ancients: Has a thematic fit. As with the above example, you won't be able to justify your Lay on Hands or Divine Sense (or your Fighting Style). You'll have to choose Pact of the Blade to justify being a frontliner. This one does better as a main Paladin (15 or so levels), unless you want the Misty Step trick. Personally, while the theme's there, it's not the most effective choice.
Celestial/Devotion: this one makes things a bit easier. The Celestial patron has a healing hands resource, so you can justify having Lay on Hands as well (in addition, it makes you a pretty solid healer). You'll rely a lot on fire and radiant spells, of which you'll mostly get through Warlock. You'll need the Pact of the Blade to work this one out, but you can choose Greenflame Blade and exploit the bonus to damage (it's a cantrip, after all). This one can work either way, to be honest, though the revival trick of the Celestial is too good to pass out.
Celestial/Redemption: an odd choice. Since Redemption Paladins prefer to avoid battles rather than fight, you can justify the use of both CDs, particularly if you refluff the use of the CD as an invocation (like Beguiling Influence). You don't need to have Pact of the Blade for this one, since most likely you won't want to fight, but you also have to wear light armor and have a limited choice of weaponry. This can work either way (more Warlock or more Paladin levels), though it depends on whether you want the spells of the Redemption Paladin or the power of your Warlock spells. Might want at least Warlock 6/Paladin 7 as soon as possible.

There may be more suitable combinations, but I see those four as the easiest to justify in-character. A Hexblade/Conquest mix means you can justify your Aura of Conquest and some of the Paladin spells as curses and manifestations of your weapon. An Archfey/Ancients mix means you can justify some of your Ancients spells and features as gifts of your patron. And with the Celestial patron, you can justify being a goody-two-shoes character while still being a Warlock; Devotion and Redemption fit these themes well, with the Devotion Paladin being a knight errant and the Redemption Paladin being a technical pacifist. From there, you can work your character fluff to the campaign you choose to join, if you intend to play this campaign right.

One thing to watch out, though, is that without the Hexblade OR the Pact of the Blade, it'll be harder to justify being a melee combatant. This is doubly so for the Celestial/Redemption Paladin choosing another Pact (maybe Pact of the Tome, or Pact of the Talisman from the ACF UA?) It means you'll be unable to access a great deal of your Paladin powers and abilities until you reveal your Paladinhood. You'll also have to play with the tenets, but fortunately the combinations work out nicely. (It's not like combinations that just won't work, like Devotion and Fiend, or Redemption and Great Old One, where you're dealing with unspeakably evil beings that you're trying probably to dupe, as your tenets make it harder for you to do so.) The theme restriction will hinder your contributions in battle, so think about that as well.

[dehro]

Awesome suggestions all-round..
Lots of food for thought.

[kazaryu]

it's not like combinations that just won't work, like Devotion and Fiend, or Redemption and Great Old One, where you're dealing with unspeakably evil beings that you're trying probably to dupe, as your tenets make it harder for you to do so.) The theme restriction will hinder your contributions in battle, so think about that as well.

Neither of those options are off the table. Particularly if you treat the pact as a pact, as opposed to as servitude. Remember paladins arent inherently religous in 5e. The *only* thjng you need to qualify for paladin levels is hardocre eevotion to an ideal. And that is independent of making deals with devils (both literally and metaphorically) now, its very unlikely that your fiend patron will be the one that grants powers to a devotion paladin, but theres nothing that prevents a fiend warlock gaining paladin levels. At its most basic, all a warlock does is trade something for power. That something *can* be servitude, but it doesnt have to be.

I can go more in depth on ideas for how to kake this work if you want...but kotnright now, phones nearly dead

[Wizard_Lizard]

I mean.... celestial warlock?

[CTurbo]

1. WHY is he hiding being a Paladin? This doesn't sound very Paladinlike to me. You CAN do it, but it doesn't really fit unless you have a good reason.

2. Are you talking about a literal multiclass? You need 13 Str but would want to prioritize Dex. I know Hexblade is the popular choice by fay but I think it's lame personally so I would choose Celestial and probably go Tome at level 3 for utility. Then jump over to Paladin after that, but again I can't see how you're going to rp becoming a Paladin all of a sudden while also hiding it at the same time.

[dehro]

It's more of a thought experiment than an actual plan to play this character.
Think of it in terms of, for example, being an undercover cop, or being part of a cult that is persecuted, or an order that has been disbanded (Obi-wan?), There are plenty of possible reasons why someone would want to hide being a paladin at least until he's sure that he is amongst friends... And even then.
The exercise is mostly just trying to see if it's also sustainable in gaming terms
I'm thinking more in terms of character concept rather than character progression, which I admit might pose an issue, should the character ever be played

[kazaryu]

2. Are you talking about a literal multiclass? You need 13 Str but would want to prioritize Dex.

I seriously dont understand why people say this...why...why does everyone think that dex is important? I mean, if youre playing s&b theres no reason not to go dex, but that style of play is by no means a necessity.

[Keravath]

I seriously dont understand why people say this...why...why does everyone think that dex is important? I mean, if youre playing s&b theres no reason not to go dex, but that style of play is by no means a necessity.

Warlocks except hexblade only have access to light armor. If you start wearing heavy armor then as much as like to tell yourself you are a warlock, one glance says you are something else. If you want to wear light or medium armor to make the masquerade work, you need dex to have a decent AC.

Paladins don't typically need dex because they wear heavy armor. Trying to play a paladin/warlock pretending to not be a paladin needs dex to make the disguise mechanically effective.

Dex in this case is for the THIS specific build and purpose. Trying to pull off the masquerade and still be mechanically effective requires some compromise.

The easiest way would be hexblade with shield and medium armor. 14 dex for max AC. 13 str for multiclass, rest in charisma for to hit/damage and both warlock and paladin spells. The main problem is that the spells available to paladins aren't on the hexblade list. Celestial with its healing abilities is a little easier to disguise.

If you go blade pact, you could probably disguise your paladin smites as eldritch smites as long as you don't use too many. If you added in a level of divine soul sorcerer that might even cover use of some of the low level paladin spells.

2 hexblade
2 paladin
1 divine soul

...

1 more hexblade
X paladin
... add more sorcerer to taste.

With a build something like that, progression would be slower and you would probably rely on eldritch blast until later levels when you hit paladin 5 with extra attack.

---

It also depends on whether you are trying to hide the paladin levels from the other players or from the characters and NPCs.

[dehro]

I like the notion of hiding it from the other players too, but I find that that survives only until the time someone takes a peek at my character sheet, and overtly hiding it or stopping them from doing so would only arouse more suspicion.
So... Dex based hexblade paladin seems a good way to go..
Any further feats or pacts or details that could help maintaing the charade?

[Wildarm]

You're on the right track with a dex based paladin. Just realize that once you go down that path, it can be costly to multiclass(13 Str).

The new UA Class options may help. There's an option to trade paladin fighting style for cleric cantrips. This could give you a ranged attack option to mimic warlock cantrips. Toll the Dead and Sacred Flame(Celestial Warlock) are options. Pick a 2nd cantrip which overlaps warlock spells too.

Besides people looking at your character sheet, players will probably notice right away that you don't recover spell slots on a short rest and don't cast spells at 1st level. So, it will be a more in game hiding of your nature. Don't sweat it. Keep up the charade till your aura kicks in and then let players know they sense the innate dedication to your ideals from within you.

For spellcasting there is not a huge amount of overlap unless you choose celestial warlock. You could probably get by with protection from good and evil and detect magic. Conquest Paladin would give you a few other overlapping spells, Armor of Agathys and Hold Person in particular.

Once you reach 5th level, you can easily start smiting as Warlocks gain access to that ability too. Your find steed spell could, with DM permission summon something similar to a Pact of Chain warlock familiar or just use some sort of fiendish animal.

If I were going this route I would be a Conquest Paladin /w Cantrip casting who is pretending to be a Celestial Warlock to make it the most convincing. To the outside world, you're a Teifling who is defying your infernal heritage by embracing the celestial path. Secretly you're just hiding your true nature which is to crush all those who dare try and defy or define you.

[kazaryu]

Warlocks except hexblade only have access to light armor. If you start wearing heavy armor then as much as like to tell yourself you are a warlock, one glance says you are something else. If you want to wear light or medium armor to make the masquerade work, you need dex to have a decent AC.



Right...except narratively noone knows 'warlocks dont get proficiency with heavy or medium armor' thats purely meta information. And its not like theres a 'school' for warlocks that people can just go look up the curriculum and see that theres never any armor training.

And if youre trying to keep it secret from players, theres myriad ways to get medium/heavy armor proficiency without raising suspicion. Especially for a character thats higher than lvl 1. People will just assume to mc'd for the proficiency...its ridiculously common.