Faceman: Who makes a good Faceman classwise?

[blackjack50]

I tend to think the Bard is good at this, but I’m just looking who may have the most utility as the face of the group? Be it for spells or just simple modifiers? What do y’all think?

[N810]

Any of the classes that use charisma as their main stat. :nale:

[blackjack50]

Any of the classes that use charisma as their main stat. :nale:

But is any one of them better for passing persuasion/deception checks? Like spell wise? I don’t usually play a caster.

[HappyDaze]

Oath of Redemption has a nice divine booster for Persuasion, but I would only consider that after having the Bard levels for Expertise (in Persuasion and/or Deception) and the immensely flexible Bardic Inspiration (to convince yourself that you're the best at Persuasion/Deception).

[Theaitetos]

Bard
Sorcerer
Warlock
Paladin

i.e. what N810 said. :elan:

However, aside from CHA it also depends on proficiency in relevant skills – Persuasion, Intimidation, Deception, and Insight (WIS). The Bard's Jack of All Trades makes sure you have at least half proficiency in all of those, so that's a very good class for party face. Otherwise you'd have to put your skill proficiencies there. Bards also have colleges that improve their social abilities, so they are the best of the best (Glamour & Whispers). Since everyone prefers to have Perception proficiency, and martial/melee classes tend to have at least Acrobatics or Athletics as one of their skills, the Paladin drops to a 2nd tier candidate for party face due to lack of skills. Rogues can get expertise in their social skills, which equalizes with a high CHA modifier, although they tend to prefer Stealth, Slight of Hand, and Perception. So let's arrange the list as:

1. Bard
2. Sorcerer & Warlock
3. Paladin & Rogue
4. non-melee & high WIS
5. everyone else

Half-Elves are a great race for party face due to their 2 extra skills and high CHA.

[Wizard_Lizard]

BARD and/or certain rogues. Just put expertize in a social skill and have moderate charisma.

[Ventruenox]

Bard. Bard it hard.

Although, there are a few dips into other classes that can allow you to further stack Persuasion/Deception checks in your favor. Divine Soul Sorcerer can get the Guidance cantrip, or a Fey Warlock can use their charm/fear ability, not to mention forcing disadvantage on your opponent's roll with Hex.

Specter's Social God Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?490505-The-Social-God-A-guide-to-an-optimized-party-face) is pretty comprehensive for this role.

[Laserlight]

Best Face is the one with the player who doesn't just stroll into the dragon lair and say "Hi, sweet thing, let's get it on!" but works his way up to it in a series of steps, each of which seemed plausible at the time, delivering Magic Mouths with a romantic verse, leaving bouquets outside the cave, learning to tango, and so forth, until eventually the DM realizes " I need to pick out names for their baby half-dragons ...what did I just say? ... HOW DID THIS HAPPEN? "

[Wizard_Lizard]

Best Face is the one with the player who doesn't just stroll into the dragon lair and say "Hi, sweet thing, let's get it on!" but works his way up to it in a series of steps, each of which seemed plausible at the time, delivering Magic Mouths with a romantic verse, leaving bouquets outside the cave, learning to tango, and so forth, until eventually the DM realizes " I need to pick out names for their baby half-dragons ...what did I just say? ... HOW DID THIS HAPPEN? "

oh god that s too good.

[Contrast]

Warlock has a good trick whereby they can get an invocation to cast Disguise Self at will that lets them much more freely abuse the Friends cantrip.

Generally speaking though Enhance Ability is the much safer option than trying charm spells (even as an Enchantment wizard in my opinion).

Sorc gets subtle spell which can let you cast mind effecting spells mid-conversation.

Bards get expertise which honestly is generally probably going to be the more sensible option. Glamour bards get some relevant abilities but at 14th level Lore Bards can add their bardic inspiration to their own checks which gives them a substantial edge.

Bards and Warlocks also get access to Glibness which combined with expertise can make your minimum roll 32.

[Wizard_Lizard]

and then choose a certain dragonmark and add a d4 to that

[Agent-KI7KO]

Oath of Redemption has a nice divine booster for Persuasion, but I would only consider that after having the Bard levels for Expertise (in Persuasion and/or Deception) and the immensely flexible Bardic Inspiration (to convince yourself that you're the best at Persuasion/Deception).
Bards can’t inspire themselves using Bardic Inspiration. Otherwise that would make “Peerless Skill” a useless ability.

After Expertise you want Enhance Ability: Eagle’s Splendor instead.

If UA is allowed, I believe some BattleMaster levels could get you a few +1d8 to Deception and i think Persuasion via Silver Tongue maneuver.

[Tawmis]

Class wise, I would say the Bard.

Any class can use CHR, yes.

But Paladins are typically not one to be a "faceman" - if it requires lying (for the most part).
Sorcerers also use CHR, but ... they tend to have odd things (wild magic or whatever, or dressed in arcane robes, which may make some villagers nervous).
The bard can dress in normal attire, use their charm and wit, to be the faceman - tell the truth or tell a lie - all for the sake of just bringing the smarm.

[Nidgit]

In order:

Bards: duh
Sorcerers: High Charisma and Subtle Spell
Warlocks: Charisma, skills, and some useful spells and Invocations
Rogues: Expertise
Paladins: Good Charisma but limited skills and spells
Wizards: Charisma is for suckers when you can just Charm them
Clerics/Druids: A couple situational spells and a potentially high Insight
Monks: Fluent in every spoken language at Level 13+
Fighters: You've got the ASIs to build towards social stuff if you really want
Rangers: Insight?
Barbarians: Intimidate?

[Keravath]

Bards make the best social interaction character ... high charisma ... lots of skills and expertise. Combine these and expertise in deception/persuasion and the bard is difficult to beat.

Next up are rogues with a decent charisma and expertise in social skills. They also get bonus points for reliable talent.

Next would be any human charisma based character who takes the Prodigy feat to get expertise in a social skill. Not as versatile as a rogue/bard who can have expertise in multiple skills.

Expertise > stat for social interactions.
e.g.
level 5 charisma character - +4 stat +3 proficiency = +7
level 5 character with 14 charisma and expertise - +2 stat +6 expertise = +8

---

After expertise, any charisma character with proficiency will have a decent number but it won't come close to a bard.
e.g.
level 9 sorcerer +5 stat +4 proficiency = +9
level 9 bard +5 stat +8 expertise = +13

I currently have a 14th level character (12 bard/2 warlock) with expertise in persuasion/deception and a stone of good luck - +5 stat +10 expertise +1 stone = +16 to these checks. The average result is a 26.

In addition, bards and rogues also get more skills which makes it easier to pick up the social skills along with others.

---

P.S. Sorcerers get a special mention if they happen to have subtle spell and some spell that will help in a social situation. However, they have very limited spell selection so it is a significant sacrifice for a sorcerer to take a spell specifically to support social interactions. However, a divine soul with the guidance cantrip would likely be able to cast it without being noticed which would help their skill check directly.

[JakOfAllTirades]

If you decide to go Warlock, Archfey is the best "face" patron. Most of their patron-granted abilities are charm-related. (Fey Presence, Beguiling Defenses, Dark Delerium) Their expanded spell list, not so much.

[Chronos]

Like Bardic Inspiration, Guidance also cannot be used on yourself. And use of Guidance for social skills can be a bit tricky anyway, since it usually means that the person your socializing sees the party casting a spell, which might be perceived as threatening.

[Keravath]

Like Bardic Inspiration, Guidance also cannot be used on yourself. And use of Guidance for social skills can be a bit tricky anyway, since it usually means that the person your socializing sees the party casting a spell, which might be perceived as threatening.

1) Unlike bardic inspiration which states "one creature other than yourself", Guidance says "You touch one willing creature.".

Unless you are either unwilling or not a creature then you can certainly cast guidance on yourself.

2) Guidance has only V,S components for casting.

Subtle meta-magic: "When you cast a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to east it without any somatic or verbal components."

Any sorcerer with both Guidance and subtle metamagic (e.g. divine soul) can cast Guidance with absolutely no indication that they have done so ... in this circumstance, a sorcerer can use guidance without any repercussions in any social situation by expending a sorcery point if they so wish.

From a skills perspective, a sorcerer with guidance, subtle and a level in rogue for expertise in social skills would likely edge out the bard in terms of the having the highest self-buffed skill modifier usable in a social encounter.

[Amechra]

If you're looking at Warlock, do not be fooled by the fact that they don't have Deception or Persuasion on their skill list. They can pick up the Beguiling Influence invocation, which gives them proficiency in both of those skills.

You'd still have to rely on a Background or whatever to get proficiency in Insight, though.

---

Also, depending on your campaign, you might have to make use of Performance as well.

Since that's a lot in the way of proficiencies, it might be a good idea to split them between party members (especially if you're in a less fight-y campaign). Really, you can get away with only having one out of the three "main" skills (Deception, Intimidation, and Persuasion) if you have someone else covering them in the party. Just make sure that all of the relevant people in the party have Insight, and you're golden.

[Theaitetos]

If you decide to go Warlock, Archfey is the best "face" patron. Most of their patron-granted abilities are charm-related. (Fey Presence, Beguiling Defenses, Dark Delerium) Their expanded spell list, not so much.

I think Grand Old One is a better choice, since you can use telepathy to communicate with every person you meet regardless of languages. And later you get immunity to mind-reading, which protects you against all supernatural abilities to uncover your Deceptions.

[KillingTime]

Lore Bards
All the bardic goodness, and can also use cutting words to hamper the mark"s insight and perception checks.

[diplomancer]

Best one is Bard. IF the DM rules that it is not possible to have hidden or disguised casting outside of the Subtle Spell metamagic, AND has a world where casting spells is usually considered an hostile action, 3 levels of sorcerer for it might be advisable, but all the other things that the Bard brings (extra skills, more known spells, expertise, cutting words/enthralling performance/words of terror) still make the Bard a generally better choice. Expertise in persuasion/deception+cutting words has a better chance of success than pretty much any spell, though its effects are more up to the DM. If you want to really be undetectable to magic, Nystul's Magical Aura as a level 6 Lore Bard magical secrets is an interesting choice. If you have a month of downtime, you can have a permanent non-magical aura, not only on you, but on your entire party and some more relevant objects. If your DM is ok with hidden/disguised casting, this can be even better than the sorcerer's subtle spell under some circumstances.

Warlock, specially with the Disguise Self invocation, is also a good choice, but somewhat vulnerable to ways of detecting when a creature is magically affected, be it as simple as detect magic or as powerful as truesight. A disguise kit, though it takes longer, is actually a more safe way of disguising yourself than disguise self, specially if you have expertise in deception and the actor's feat. On that note, a Cha focused Rogue, like the swashbuckler, is also a solid choice, since they don't need any magic to be good at it.

In general, it is not a good idea to be too reliant on magic to accomplish your social goals, it is somewhat easily countered and DMs will find a way to do that.

[Chronos]

Yes, sorcerers can use Subtle Spell to make Guidance imperceptible, and in that case there's no problem using it with social skills. I was speaking in general, not for that one specific caster.

[djreynolds]

I tend to think the Bard is good at this, but I’m just looking who may have the most utility as the face of the group? Be it for spells or just simple modifiers? What do y’all think?

It has to be bard, because if you think about, the other charisma classes "should" have associated flaws.

Talking to a paladin is like talking to your principal, or police officer pulling you over.

Warlocks feel "not" of this world.

Sorcerers are probably scary.

I want to talk to the bard, he/she seems nice.

[diplomancer]

It has to be bard, because if you think about, the other charisma classes "should" have associated flaws.

Talking to a paladin is like talking to your principal, or police officer pulling you over.

Warlocks feel "not" of this world.

Sorcerers are probably scary.

I want to talk to the bard, he/she seems nice.

Im probably the biggest bard fan you are going to find, but I've got to disagree here. How people in general feel about high cha characters is how those characters WANT people to feel. If they want to appear scary, they will. If they want to appear open and approachable, they will.

[Eurus]

Swashbuckler with its at-will nonmagical charm effect is almost offensively good at being a face, even considering that it uses charisma as a secondary stat and not a primary one. Take rogue expertise in your social skill of choice and you're going to do just fine.

[blackjack50]

Bard. Bard it hard.

Although, there are a few dips into other classes that can allow you to further stack Persuasion/Deception checks in your favor. Divine Soul Sorcerer can get the Guidance cantrip, or a Fey Warlock can use their charm/fear ability, not to mention forcing disadvantage on your opponent's roll with Hex.

Specter's Social God Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?490505-The-Social-God-A-guide-to-an-optimized-party-face) is pretty comprehensive for this role.

This was perfect and I shall be shouting this from the rooftops :)

[ezekielraiden]

But is any one of them better for passing persuasion/deception checks? Like spell wise? I don’t usually play a caster.

Bard is the only explicitly Charisma-based class that automatically gets Expertise, and its native spell list is biased toward illusion and enchantment, which are directly applicable. So, purely from that standpoint, Bard is the face class: natural inclination, more skills, Expertise, and (full caster) spell support. They also get more skills than other classes (minimum 1, potentially four more for Lore).

Sorcerer can pick up Subtle Spell, which is somewhat unique, potentially shielding them from detection when casting an enchantment or illusion--depending on DM, this may be huge for casting such spells as they may become untraceable (e.g. you may know you were enchanted, but you might not know that the person you spoke to did it to you). However, as noted, this is HEAVILY DM-dependent.

Warlock doesn't really do anything special to be stronger at face-related skills. They get a special note, however, because they have an Invocation that grants both Deception and Persuasion--one of the rare ways to pick up extra skills post-character-generation that doesn't require a feat. In a certain sense, their boosted spell slots might count as an advantage, but I'd say it's about equal advantage and disadvantage. Notable flaw: the class lacks Persuasion by default, so it needs that invocation or a background in order to get that.

As noted, some Paladin oaths get some useful benefits for a face character, so they kind of get an honorable mention (no pun intended). They'll be good at face stuff because Charisma is good for them anyway, and they get Insight, Intimidation, and Persuasion as class skills so they don't need a background to be good at this sort of thing. However, they don't really get much in the way of spell support (command, zone of truth, and geas are really the only ones, apart from Oath spells that I'm not going to try to check), nor do they get any more skills than other classes. I'd call this the weakest of the Cha-based classes if your goal is specifically to play a face. It's not a bad choice by any means, especially if you go Redemption.

Rogues obviously get an honorable mention because, although they aren't really Cha-based, they get plenty of Expertise, and Arcane Tricksters get illusions and enchantments. Again, not quite the ideal conflux that Bard is, but not bad.

Probably the ur-face would be some kind of multiclass Bard/Sorcerer. You'd lose out on max-level spells, but the combination of tons of skills and Subtle Spell enchantments/illusions is pretty much incomparable. If there were some way to get sorcery points and Subtle Spell on a plain Bard, that would hands-down be the best Face in the game, no question.

Edit:
As noted, the Swashbuckler gets Cha-based features, though obviously it gets no spells. It's probably closer to Warlock than AT Rogues, but not a lot closer.

[Theaitetos]

Warlock doesn't really do anything special to be stronger at face-related skills. They get a special note, however, because they have an Invocation that grants both Deception and Persuasion--one of the rare ways to pick up extra skills post-character-generation that doesn't require a feat. In a certain sense, their boosted spell slots might count as an advantage, but I'd say it's about equal advantage and disadvantage. Notable flaw: the class lacks Persuasion by default, so it needs that invocation or a background in order to get that.

One shouldn't underestimate the potential face power of a Warlock.

A GOO warlock has telepathy, which allows him to communicate with any creature (that speaks at least 1 language); social skills are useless when you cannot talk to people, so non-telepaths have to learn many languages, whereas the telepathic warlock does not need to do so.

GOO warlocks also receive a free Mind Blank, protecting them against mind-reading and thereby foiling supernatural means to uncover your motives/deceptions. And the capstone allows such a warlock to turn a humanoid into a charmed thrall with no saving throw.

Warlocks with the Chain Pact also have access to the Sprite familiar with its Heart Sight ability, that allows the Sprite to read the emotions of any creature; again, there's no saving throw against this ability. The Sprite can also uncover the alignment of any creature if the creature fails a saving throw (fiends, undead, celestials automatically fail).

These skills make warlocks powerful face characters as well, especially their Deception skills are unmatched with free Disguise Self & Alter Self spell invocations.

[sithlordnergal]

I'm going to break down the classes into different tiers, more or less, and provide a brief description why. This is mostly from what I've seen in games, and due to class abilities. Also, this list does not take into account anything gained from Multiclassing, Feats, Race, or Background. If I did take those into account every class except Bard and Rogue would be tied simply because you can make a party face out of any class with the right combination of the four listed things.

Also, I know this is standard terminology...but you never know. There might be a new guy here:

SAD stands for Single Ability Score Dependent, it basically means the class only really needs to max out a single ability. Obviously all classes benefit from a high Con and high Dex, but they aren't really required for the class to function at its peak.

MAD stands for Multiple Ability Score Dependent. Basically they're classes that need two or more ability scores to be at, or near, the max in order to really function. You usually find hybrid caster classes here, like Paladins or Rangers.


---S Rank: This is the Best of the Best---


First off, the Rogue has Expertise right off the bat at level 1. This means you can have a +7 to one of your charisma skills at level 1. They also gain a total of four skills, and have access to Deception, Persuasion, and Intimidation as class skills. Usually a party face wants at Deception and either Intimidation or Persuasion, which leaves you with two more skills to choose from.

Next, Rogues are surprisingly SAD, they really only need Dexterity for their attacks and AC This means you can easily create a Dex/Cha Rogue, or Dex/Int, Dex/Wis, ect., all without becoming too MAD.

Finally, at level 10 Rogues really rise to the top with Reliable Talent. At this point they blow every other class out of the water at every skill they're proficient with. Given a level 10 Rogue that maxed out Charisma and has Expertise in Persuasion, you'd be looking at a party face that literally can't roll below a 23 Persuasion check.

Also, while some Subclasses can make a class better at being the Party Face, the Swashbuckler gains a special note here because of Panache. At level 9, you can use your action to make a Charisma (Persuasion) check that is contested by a Wisdom (Insight) check against any being you can speak to. The only restrictions are that the target must be able to hear you, and must share a language with you.

If the target is initially hostile to you and fail the Insight check, they have disadvantage against targets other than you, and can't make attacks of opportunity against anyone other than you. This effect lasts for 1 minute, or until one of your allies attacks the target, or if you move 60ft away.

If the target isn't initially hostile towards you, they become Charmed and regard you as a friendly acquaintance for one minute. This effect ends if you or an ally harm that person.

The reason I call out Panache as a special case is that it only takes an action to use, and has no limitations on its usage outside of needing to be able to speak to the target. You can use Panache as much as you like, including on targets already affected by Panache. Meaning if you use Panache on a non-hostile target, then you can keep them charmed indefinitely by using Panache once every minute. And to top it off, one level after you get Panache, you gain Reliable Talent, which sets 23 as the minimum for your Persuasion Check.



---A Rank: These are the classes that have something special going for them. They're not quite as good as the S Rank, but they're still hard to beat as a party face---


The Bard has a couple of things going for it, though I feel they're not quite as powerful as Reliable Talent and Panache. First, its another SAD class that really only relies on Charisma. Its even more SAD then the Rogue, since Charisma is their spell casting ability. Next, they choose three skills of their choice to be proficient in, with Lore Bard adding another three skill proficencies.

Next, they also gain Expertise like the Rogue, though they gain it at level 3 instead of level 1. Meaning at levels 3 through 9, a Bard is just as good at making a Charisma check as a Rogue, and they have more incentive to max out Charisma by level 8 then a Rogue does.

They also have spell casting, with spells that focus on charming and enchanting others, as well as communication.

And finally, a special mention goes out to College of Glamour and College of Whispers. Both classes have some very impressive abilities that lend to being a Party Face. I wouldn't call them as good as Panache, since they require a full minute of you performing while Panache is just a single action that you can repeat as many times as you want, but they're both very impressive. Especially the College of Glamour.



----B Rank: These are classes that have a slight edge over most classes, but lack certain abilities that the A and S Ranks have to really go over the top---


The Sorcerer is yet another SAD class that relies purely on Charisma. They only get two skills, but Persuasion and Deception are on that list. However, they lack Expertise, which means their Persuasion bonus will never really get as high as that of the Rogue or the Bard, and as the proficiency bonus grows larger the gap between them all only widens further.

However, not all is lost. Like the Bard, the Sorcerer is a full caster that gains most of the same social spells the Bard has, with one or two small exceptions. They also have access to Subtle Spell, which makes it easier for them to enchant others without being noticed.



The warlock is a bit odd with how it goes about being a party face. First, like the Sorcerer it is a SAD class that only really uses Charisma. However, it only gains two skills, and persuasion is not on that skill list. But to make up for it, Warlocks can take an invocation that gives them Persuasion and Deception, and have access to invocations that give At Will spells like Disguise Self or Speak with Animals.

Great Old One Warlocks also get to ignore language barriers, since Awakened Mind lets them telepathically speak to anyone with a language within 30 feet of them that they can see, while Archfey Warlocks can Charm everyone in a 10ft cube of them for a single round.



---C Rank: This is for the classes that can gain a Party Face skill, but lack any sort of special support for it---


The Paladin really only has two things going for it. First, it gains two skills, one of which can be Persuasion or Intimidation. Second, while the Paladin is somewhat more MAD then the previous classes, it does have Charisma as a secondary Ability score, and players would do well to boost Charisma. Outside of that, the only real thing that makes them stand out is the Redemption Subclass, which grants one Channel Divinity that can be used to add +5 to persuasion checks for 10 minutes and access to Calm Emotions, which can be highly useful to a Party Face.



Like the Paladin, Clerics only gain two skills, and all Clerics have access to Persuasion, while Order Clerics can take Persuasion or Intimidation as a bonus proficiency. The Cleric's only real edge over the Paladin is that they have access to Calm Emotions and they're a bit more SAD then the Paladin, which frees up ASIs for Charisma. But outside of that, none of their class abilities lend towards being a better Party Face



The final class that has access to a party face skill without much support, the Fighter can take two skills, one of which can be Intimidation. That said, the Cavalier and Samurai subclasses do give one the option to have proficiency in the Persuasion skill. Fighters do gain two advantages over the Cleric and Paladin when it comes to being the Party Face. First, they gain more ASIs then the Paladin or Cleric, meaning it is easier to make out their Charisma, and second the Samurai gains a 7th level ability to add their Wisdom modifier to their Persuasion checks.

However, outside of that, they lack any major abilities that make them stand out.



---D Rank: These are classes that could be C Rank, but lack any Party Face skills---


Possibly the most SAD class in the game. This class literally only needs Wisdom, especially if you play a Moon Druid who uses Wild Shape to replace all of your physical ability scores. This allows one to max out Charisma with ease if they wish. The biggest downside is the fact that the Druid doesn't have access to Persuasion, Deception, or even Intimidation.



Just slightly more MAD then the Druid, since you actually have to use your own Dexterity and Constitution scores. But even then, the wizard is a very SAD class, making it very easy to max out their main casting stat and then focus on Charisma. However, as near as I can find, there are no Wizard subclasses that give access to Persuasion, Intimidation, or Deception. As such, Wizards are stuck with using just their Charisma modifiers, like the Druids are.



---F Rank: This class lack Party Face skills, and is a bit too MAD to focus on Charisma---


The best of the worst in this case. Rangers requires Wisdom and Dexterity in order to function well since their attacks often use Dex, and their spell casting is based off of Wisdom. Mix that with the standard five ASI increases, and the best you're looking at is max Wisdom, max Dexterity, and a +2 to Charisma for your final ability scores, provided you only focus on those. Add in the Ranger's lack of any Party Face skills, and you end up with a class that really isn't made for being a Party Face



---Monk and Barbarian---

These two classes get to share a very special place below every other class. The reason for that is because with the right mixture of Feats, Racial abilities, and Background choices, almost all of the above classes can be increased by at one rank. The Warlock and Sorcerer can easily be on par with the Bard if they're a Half-Elf with Prodigy for Expertise and a custom Background. Even the Ranger can be lifted to equal footing with a standard Party Face, no feats taken Paladin with Expertise and +0 Charisma. And they can get close to Bard levels if they have even a 16 in Charisma, rocking a respectable +15 to Persuasion at level 20.

However, the Barbarian and Monk simply can't do that. Both of these classes are way, way too MAD, and don't get enough ASIs to risk putting a +2 into Charisma. Sure, the Barbarian does, technically, get Intimidation as one of the skills they can choose, but Barbarians will want to max out their Strength and Constitution, while getting at least an 18 in Dexterity. Especially since their Strength and Con can be boosted to 24 at level 20, meaning they can have a 24 AC if with 20 Dex, 24 Con, and a Shield, or 23 with 18 Dex, 24 Con, and a Shield. Monks are in the same boat, they need to max out Dex and Wisdom, and do well with a bit of extra Constitution in order to tank some blows since their AC tops out at 20.

[KillingTime]

snip

I think you're rather overstating the benefits of reliable talent and panache.
Not that they're not great abilities, but they really only come into play from late tier 2, tier 3 onwards.
Most campaigns loiter at tiers 1 & 2 and in this arena the Bard dominates.
Expertise by lvl3 is fine given how quickly most tables skip through lvls 1 & 2.
And then the various uses of bardic inspiration and the abilities of a full caster make the Bard really shine.

Don't get me wrong, the rogue is a great face.
But I don't think it can quite compete with the Bard, especially one focused on casting spells like Charm, Calm Emotions, Detect Thoughts, Disguise Self, Suggestion, Enhance Ability, Skill Empowerment, Seeming, Glibness... etc
Their face toolbox is crazy powerful.

[ezekielraiden]

Edit: Shadow Monk'd, but the point stands nonetheless. :smalltongue:

Really can't agree on your ordering of Bard vs. Rogue. It seems blatantly obvious to me that Bard is the superior face unless you are adamant that no campaign starts later than level 1 (a common trap for many DMs, I admit, but not as common as it used to be). Once you hit third level, a Bard (and especially a Lore Bard) is emphatically ahead: 2nd level spells, Cha focus, two skills with Expertise. Lore Bard then gives you additional Magical Secrets at level 6, letting you grab any other spells you might be missing for "social god" status--the extra expertise beyond the first two suffers enough diminishing marginal utility (not a lot, mind; but enough) that Magical Secrets is ahead. And even if you aren't a Lore Bard, Bard is better at supporting whatever other thing you want to do unless that thing is explicitly "wear heavy armor and tank hits."

Like, I get that Rogue is good, and has expertise from the beginning, which is a nice benefit. It doesn't counterbalance spells--at least not enough to put Rogue emphatically in a higher tier than Bard. You can make an argument--a pretty persuasive one, I'd say--that a first-level Rogue dip followed by Bard thereafter is the best of the bunch, giving all the early benefits of Rogue and granting your second round of Expertise with only 3 more character levels, well worth delaying an ASI and dropping the largely-worthless Bard capstone.

[sithlordnergal]

I think you're rather overstating the benefits of reliable talent and panache.
Not that they're not great abilities, but they really only come into play from late tier 2, tier 3 onwards.
Most campaigns loiter at tiers 1 & 2 and in this arena the Bard dominates.
Expertise by lvl3 is fine given how quickly most tables skip through lvls 1 & 2.
And then the various uses of bardic inspiration and the abilities of a full caster make the Bard really shine.

Don't get me wrong, the rogue is a great face.
But I don't think it can quite compete with the Bard, especially one focused on casting spells like Charm, Calm Emotions, Detect Thoughts, Disguise Self, Suggestion, Enhance Ability, Skill Empowerment, Seeming, Glibness... etc
Their face toolbox is crazy powerful.


-SNIP-

Well, I have a two big reasons for giving the Rogue the edge over the Bard:

First, while the Bard does have several spells at hand, they need to cast those spells to gain the benefits of them. And unless you either precast them, or get your target alone in a room with you in order to cast the spell, most DMs will have people notice that you're casting a spell. Even if you're with a DM like myself who allows a stealth check to cast spells without being noticed, you still have to make a check, could still be noticed, and would have to deal with the consequences. The consequences could range from being attacked, to just being unable to make the persuasion check, to being thrown out of where ever you were at the time.

The other issue is that those spells come at a cost, and that cost is your spell slot. Glibness is great...but you only get one 8th level slot per day, so you're only using it once per Long Rest. Same with any other spell you mentioned. Yes, that does become less of a deal as time goes on, but the fact remains the Rogue will be able to use its skills long after the Bard runs out of slots.


Meanwhile Panache doesn't require you to expend any resources, can be used at will, its part of a Persuasion check, so there's no way for other people to notice its being used, it provides the Charm and friendly effects, the roll made to resist it is an Insight check instead of a Wisdom save, and most NPCs have a lower Insight then Wisdom Save, AND it could be argued that the targets don't even realize they were Charmed when Panache ends. Spells like Charm Person specifically state that target realizes they were Charmed at the end of the spell, Panache doesn't have that statement, and as such it could be argued that the target would never know they were Charmed at all. Oh, also, because Panache doesn't mention being magical or creating a spell like effect, it works in areas that block spells or prevent spells. So you can use it in Anti-Magic Spheres/Cones...not a big deal, but something to keep in mind. And then to top it off, you get Reliable Talent one level later, and now your DC for that insight check is going to be a minimum of 23 at all times. Compare that to the Bard's Spell DC, which would be 17 at the time this comes online.

Sure its at the end of Tier 2, but until you get it, the Rogue and Bard are equal to each other, unless the Bard somehow manages to get off one of their spells without anyone noticing.


EDIT:


Edit: Shadow Monk'd, but the point stands nonetheless. :smalltongue:

Really can't agree on your ordering of Bard vs. Rogue. It seems blatantly obvious to me that Bard is the superior face unless you are adamant that no campaign starts later than level 1 (a common trap for many DMs, I admit, but not as common as it used to be). Once you hit third level, a Bard (and especially a Lore Bard) is emphatically ahead: 2nd level spells, Cha focus, two skills with Expertise. Lore Bard then gives you additional Magical Secrets at level 6, letting you grab any other spells you might be missing for "social god" status--the extra expertise beyond the first two suffers enough diminishing marginal utility (not a lot, mind; but enough) that Magical Secrets is ahead. And even if you aren't a Lore Bard, Bard is better at supporting whatever other thing you want to do unless that thing is explicitly "wear heavy armor and tank hits."


So, while I do agree that campaigns can, and often do, start above level 1, it still doesn't change the fact that for those first two levels Rogue has an edge in Tier 1. Campaings start at level 1 often enough to take that into account, especially since AL is widely played and all characters have to start at level 1 in those games. After that the Bard does pull slightly ahead thanks to spells, but as I said above, spells are a limited resource and are risky to use. Unless your DM allows you to cast spells without any chance of being noticed, you're not going to be able to easily use a lot of those spells in the heat of the moment. You'll need to precast them, hope to start talking and end the conversation before the spell's duration ends. In fact, the fact that spell slots are limited is felt even worse in Tier 1, where you only have a max of 7 spell slots at level 4 to spread out over an entire day as compared to later levels when you can have up to 18 spell slots at level 10.

[KillingTime]

"People might see them casting" is only a partial argument. With many spells they can be cast in advance, or simply the benefits of casting outweigh (or neuter) the effect of being seen.

Likewise "spells cost spell slots" is a poor argument. Yes they have a resource cost, but that doesn't stop them being amazing.
A wizard isn't less powerful in combat than a fighter because they have to use spell slots to nuke the enemy.

And the simple matter is that even without spells, the Bard is easily the equal of the rogue.
Expertise in relevant skills, half proficiency in every skill, and cutting words to hinder an opponent's attempts to spot any shenanigans.
The Bard is stacked with top tier face abilities, and while the rogues also has excellent skills that are resource free, it's going to be a very rare day that a Bard finds themselves out of ammo.

[sithlordnergal]

"People might see them casting" is only a partial argument. With many spells they can be cast in advance, or simply the benefits of casting outweigh (or neuter) the effect of being seen.

Likewise "spells cost spell slots" is a poor argument. Yes they have a resource cost, but that doesn't stop them being amazing.
A wizard isn't less powerful in combat than a fighter because they have to use spell slots to nuke the enemy.

And the simple matter is that even without spells, the Bard is easily the equal of the rogue.
Expertise in relevant skills, half proficiency in every skill, and cutting words to hinder an opponent's attempts to spot any shenanigans.
The Bard is stacked with top tier face abilities, and while the rogues also has excellent skills that are resource free, it's going to be a very rare day that a Bard finds themselves out of ammo.

Actually, the seeing them casting is a pretty good argument against using magic. Most DMs won't allow you to just cast a spell in a room of NPCs without some kind of consequence, even if they're not your enemies. In fact, a lot of DMs that I find, both online and off, are against the idea of being able to hide spell casting if you don't have Subtle Spell or the Archdruid capstone.

Mix that with the fact that a lot of the Bard social spells have a 30 foot range, like with Charm Person or Suggestion, only last a minute like Compulsion or Enthrall, or simply give Advantage, which can be gained by allies helping you. Not to mention, those spells are generally limited with who/what you can target, and Bard's can only learn a limited number of spells, which is another mark against them. Also, the half skill proficiency is great for a Skill Monkey...but it has little use to someone who already has Proficiency and Expertise in a skill.

Don't get me wrong, the Bard is the second best Party Face with my list for a reason. It has a ton of spell support, and the spells do their jobs well. Its just...not only am I looking at all levels, from 1 to 20 and not 1 to 10, but I'm also taking into consideration how useful those spells are to every situation. For half of those levels, the Rogue can't roll below a 10, and literally Panache's only restriction is a language barrier.

To be totally fair, if I were making a list of the very best Skill Monkies, Bards would be at the very top and Rogues would come second because Bards can get more skills and add half their proficiency modifier to every other skill. The only reason the Rogue comes out on top is because they can take skill specialization to the next level, above what even Expertise grants. And they do that without any prep work, they don't have to try and pre-cast a spell for the right situation...they just have everything turned on 24/7.


EDIT: To put things into perspective, if you allowed Feats and accounted for Race selection, a Half Elf Wizard with Prodigy that maxes out Int and Charisma, which is fully possible, ends up being just as effective as the Bard. It does take the Wizard a lot more resources then the Bard does, they need to spend ASIs on an ability they don't use and a feat, but they end up being just as good at being a Party Face as the Bard does due to spells. However, that Wizard will never be as good as a Rogue, no matter how many resources they pour into being a Party Face.

Which honestly, that's really not a bad thing as you might think. The Rogue is a hyper focused, hyper specialized class. In the skill categories Rogues choose to hyper focus on, they literally can't be beat, and that's fine. If you take a Rogue out of their hyper specializations, they're either decent, meh, or terrible. Compare that to the Bard, who lacks the hyper specialization of the Rogue, and instead chooses to be a Jack of All Trades. The excel in skills they focused on, but they're decent or meh at everything else. A Bard with 8 Strength and no Athletics skill proficency still gets to have a +2 to Athletics by level 20. A Rogue with the same ability score and lack of proficiency has a -1 at level 20.

[diplomancer]

Actually, the seeing them casting is a pretty good argument against using magic. Most DMs won't allow you to just cast a spell in a room of NPCs without some kind of consequence, even if they're not your enemies. In fact, a lot of DMs that I find, both online and off, are against the idea of being able to hide spell casting if you don't have Subtle Spell or the Archdruid capstone.

Mix that with the fact that a lot of the Bard social spells have a 30 foot range, like with Charm Person or Suggestion, only last a minute like Compulsion or Enthrall, or simply give Advantage, which can be gained by allies helping you. Not to mention, those spells are generally limited with who/what you can target, and Bard's can only learn a limited number of spells, which is another mark against them. Also, the half skill proficiency is great for a Skill Monkey...but it has little use to someone who already has Proficiency and Expertise in a skill.

Don't get me wrong, the Bard is the second best Party Face with my list for a reason. It has a ton of spell support, and the spells do their jobs well. Its just...not only am I looking at all levels, from 1 to 20 and not 1 to 10, but I'm also taking into consideration how useful those spells are to every situation. For half of those levels, the Rogue can't roll below a 10, and literally Panache's only restriction is a language barrier.

To be totally fair, if I were making a list of the very best Skill Monkies, Bards would be at the very top and Rogues would come second because Bards can get more skills and add half their proficiency modifier to every other skill. The only reason the Rogue comes out on top is because they can take skill specialization to the next level, above what even Expertise grants. And they do that without any prep work, they don't have to try and pre-cast a spell for the right situation...they just have everything turned on 24/7.


EDIT: To put things into perspective, if you allowed Feats and accounted for Race selection, a Half Elf Wizard with Prodigy that maxes out Int and Charisma, which is fully possible, ends up being just as effective as the Bard. It does take the Wizard a lot more resources then the Bard does, they need to spend ASIs on an ability they don't use and a feat, but they end up being just as good at being a Party Face as the Bard does due to spells. However, that Wizard will never be as good as a Rogue, no matter how many resources they pour into being a Party Face.

Which honestly, that's really not a bad thing as you might think. The Rogue is a hyper focused, hyper specialized class. In the skill categories Rogues choose to hyper focus on, they literally can't be beat, and that's fine. If you take a Rogue out of their hyper specializations, they're either decent, meh, or terrible. Compare that to the Bard, who lacks the hyper specialization of the Rogue, and instead chooses to be a Jack of All Trades. The excel in skills they focused on, but they're decent or meh at everything else. A Bard with 8 Strength and no Athletics skill proficency still gets to have a +2 to Athletics by level 20. A Rogue with the same ability score and lack of proficiency has a -1 at level 20.

Rogue is better than the Lore Bard at levels 1-2 (which, honestly, I consider almost irrelevant, that is at best 2-3 sections) and MIGHT be better at levels 10-13. But once Lore Bards get Peerless skill at 14 (which is more powerful than reliable talent) and then Glibness at 15, they leave the rogue far behind. Truth is, Bards are great faces without any spells at all, the spells are an extra (and no, wizards can't compete even if they-very suboptimally- max Cha, as they don't have expertise, cutting words, peerless skill, or glibness. Even prodigy only gives them one expertise, while bards will be superior, having expertise in at least deception and persuasion).

The spell thing is truly DM dependant (and I will note here that those DMs who allow it usually require some sort of ability check for it, where Bards excel above other fullcasters) but this does not mean that therefore the Rogue is better, period, it might mean that Rogue is better at some tables.

[Contrast]

Well, I have a two big reasons for giving the Rogue the edge over the Bard:

SNIP

In fairness you were also assuming that the rogue was maxing Charisma, which comes at a far greater opportunity cost for the rogue than it does for the bard. Even if I wanted to be the party face as a rogue I'd be hard pressed to justify pushing Cha beyond 16 (or 14 if I was using a non Cha-boosting race) for a substantial part of my career, as you can let expertise pick up the slack to a certain extent. A bard is a great face without compromising on what else they're bringing to the table.