Avernus Paladin/Sorcadin?

[RogueJK]

I'm currently 5th level in a Descent Into Avernus campaign with a Human Vengeance Paladin glaive-wielding Polearm Master tank.

Stats are currently STR 20 DEX 12 CON 16 INT 10 WIS 12 CHA 16, with PAM feat at 1st and +2 STR at 4th. Party is a ranged Cleric, Monk/Rogue, and ranged Warlock primarily slinging EB.

We're coming up on 6th level, so I'm considering one of the three following options, which may require a decision as soon at 7th.

I know Avernus typically runs through Level 12ish. So without any Avernus spoilers or the like, which would you consider to be most optimal:


A) Paladin 12
Pros:
-3rd Level Paladin Spells, including Haste from my Oath, starting at Level 9
-Fear immunity
-Improved Divine Smite for 1d8 extra radiant damage per hit
-Full ASIs (I'm planning either Sentinel or GWM at 8th and +2 CHA at 12th)
Cons:
-Limited spell slots, maxing out at 4/3/3
-Limited ranged damage options. (I'm currently really hurting for options against ranged/flying foes)


B) Paladin 6 then Sorcerer 6
Pros:
-Additional and higher level spell slots for casting and especially Smiting, eventually ending up with 4/3/3/3/1
-5x Cantrips, including ranged damage options (I'm thinking Chill Touch)
-7 Sorcerer spells known of up to 3rd, especially stuff like Shield, Absorb Elements, Mirror Image, Haste, Fly
-Sorcerer subclass abilities
-Metamagic for full 2x Attacks + Quickened Spell in 1 round
Cons:
-No 3rd level Paladin spells known
-No access to Vengeance Paladin's 7th level ability, which synergizes well with PAM and reach weapon
-Access to Haste 2 levels later than straight Paladin at Level 11
-1 fewer ASI than straight Paladin and 2 levels late; I'd do +2 CHA at Level 10
-No Fear Immunity
-No Improved Divine Smite


C) Paladin 9 then Sorcerer 3 (or more likely Pal6 > Pal6/Sor1 > Pal9/Sor1 > Pal9/Sor3)
Pros:
-3rd level Paladin spells at the same rate (or nearly) as straight Paladin, including access to Haste at Level 9 (or 10 if I dip Sorcerer 1 early)
-One additional higher level spell slot for casting/Smiting, ending up with 4/3/3/1
-4x Cantrips, including ranged damage options
-4 Sorcerer spells known of up to 2nd level, especially stuff like Shield, Absorb Elements, Mirror Image
-Sorcerer subclass abilities
-Metamagic for full 2x Attacks + Quickened Spell in 1 round, eventually
Cons:
-1 fewer ASI than straight Paladin; I'd do +2 CHA at Level 8
-No Fear Immunity
-No Improved Divine Smite
-Metamagic doesn't come online until the very end


If you suggest B or C, which Sorcerer subclass would you recommend? I'm thinking Divine Soul or Shadow. Divine Soul is thematically appropriate, and would allow for Cleric spells, plus occasional even higher saves from Favored by the Gods. But Shadow's Darkvision is nice for a Human, and Strength of the Grave is good for a tank, especially with my already boosted saves.


I'm currently leaning towards C, but I'm far from decided. I'm also open to considering alternate options if you have a different suggestion, like Pal6/Sor1 to Pal11/Sor1, or maybe even Paladin/Bard. (Paladin/Warlock would be thematically less ideal, and a bit redundant.)

[da newt]

I have little to add except I strongly recommend FIND STEED. Mounted melee is so much better than unmounted.

[RogueJK]

Find Steed is nice, and I have that now since I'm Paladin 5. But mounted melee doesn't help me much against flying/ranged enemies, which was what initially prompted me to consider Sorcadin. Facing off against flying and/or long-ranged enemies mean everyone but me is making effective ranged attacks. We fought one particularly frustrating Fiend who just sat 120 feet up in the air and blasted me with rays of fire, while I could do nothing in return except take the Dodge action. And there are a lot of flying Fiends out there in Avernus.

[Keravath]

If all you want is a ranged attack option then all you really need is one or two levels.

One level of sorcerer picks up four cantrips - pick some ranged attack ones - plus shield and absorb elements spells.
Two levels of warlock gets eldritch blast + agonizing blast and one other invocation.

You will need to bump charisma to make yourself more effective with spells.

As a PAM paladin, improved divine smite at level 11 has some extra attraction since it is an extra d8 damage on every attack.

My vote might be for 11 paladin/1 sorcerer if you really need the ranged attack spells options. Alternatively, 10 paladin/2 warlock and in either case bump charisma with the next ASI at paladin 8. You also don't need to take both warlock levels at once if you decide to go that route. A single level of hexblade would give you the shield spell and eldritch blast which is at least ranged force damage and less often resisted.

[Expected]

Between those options, I'd choose Option B every time. Level 6 Paladin is the best break point as for all Paladin oaths (except Ancients s&b and Vengeance PAM builds) as Aura of Protection is easily one of the, if not the, best class feature(s) in 5e. You also do not want to delay Sorcerer levels and Metamagic which leveling past 6 will do.

Compare what the pros and cons of going Paladin 6/Sorcerer 6 to Paladin 7/Sorcerer 5 are and decide if Relentless Avenger is worth it. Personally, I prefer s&b Sorcadins so I naturally stop at either Paladin 2 or Paladin 6, Hexblade Warlock 1-2, and the rest in Sorcerer.

As for subclass, Divine Soul is the best--Favored of the Gods synergizes amazingly with your high saves and you get useful cantrips/spells from the Cleric list. Many people complain about the limited spells known, but you are not a blaster and should focus on melee damage and Divine Smite for crits.

[RogueJK]

If all you want is a ranged attack option then all you really need is one or two levels.

One level of sorcerer picks up four cantrips - pick some ranged attack ones - plus shield and absorb elements spells.

As a PAM paladin, improved divine smite at level 11 has some extra attraction since it is an extra d8 damage on every attack.

My vote might be for 11 paladin/1 sorcerer if you really need the ranged attack spells options.

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that 11/1 is probably the optimal breakdown for my character. When I started considering dipping Sorcerer for ranged options, that immediately led me to "Ooh! Metamagic at 3rd!", and then "Ooh, 3rd level Sorcerer spells and higher level spell slots at 6th!" But that's just "multiclass creep". :smallbiggrin:

Sticking to 1 level of Sorcerer meets the need of gaining an effective ranged damage option, while giving up no spells slots and no Paladin class features, and only losing out on an ASI from Paladin 12. In exchange, I'm getting 4x cantrips (including Chill Touch for ranged damage), 2x 1st level spells (Shield and Absorb Elements), and either Shadow's Darkvision and chance to not go unconscious when dropped to 0 hit points if I make a CHA save (which is my best save), or Divine Soul's access to Cleric cantrips and +2d4 to a save/attack per short rest.

All that Sorcerer goodness is well worth losing a feat. I'd certainly end up getting more than simply sticking with Paladin 12 and spending a feat on Magic Initiate: Sorcerer.


You will need to bump charisma to make yourself more effective with spells.

Planned for Paladin Level 8, if I'm going to dip Sorcerer. That'll give me 18 CHA, so my ranged spell attacks will only be -1 compared to my melee weapon attacks.


Alternatively, 10 paladin/2 warlock and in either case bump charisma with the next ASI at paladin 8. You also don't need to take both warlock levels at once if you decide to go that route. A single level of hexblade would give you the shield spell and eldritch blast which is at least ranged force damage and less often resisted.

Aside from having to figure out the in-game roleplaying aspect of finding a non-Fiend warlock patron to swear my service to in the midst of Avernus, Warlock would be mechanically less ideal because it doesn't add any top end 3rd+ level spell slots, for higher level casting or especially Smiting. I'd just have 1x short rest recharging 1st level spell slot from dipping 1 level into Warlock.

[OgataiKhan]

I recommend Paladin 6/Divine Soul Sorcerer 6.

The level 7 ability isn't great, even with PAM. Sure, it lets you reposition a bit in battle, but when the enemies are that close and with your 10 ft reach do you really need that ability?

Paladin 9 you woul get Haste. Problem is, unless you can quicken it, Haste is a terrible spell on a Paladin.
You waste a turn to cast it, and when you do you can't even use PAM's bonus action attack. The most you can do is using Vow of Enmity if relevant. It takes you 4 rounds total to deal more damage with Haste compared to just using that turn to attack, at the cost of a third level slot, and by that time the battle is over or almost over. The actual gain in damage is very small, you're better off using that slot to smite.
That is, if you don't lose your concentration. If you do, and no matter how good your saves you will lose it sometimes by being a frontliner, then you've just wasted two turns for no gain.

Paladin 10 you would get the anti-frighten aura. I don't know how useful it is in this campaign, but even if it is you've got a Cleric who can cast Heroes' Feast for the same effect provided you know you'll need it. Overall this ability is more useful on Conquest Paladins.

And finally Improved Divine Smite is very nice, especially with PAM, so we would miss it.

BUT, going Sorcerer sooner gets you Shield, Absorb Elements, Healing Word, and the 1/rest bonus to saving throws, making even just level 1 a huge level. Plus at level 5 you get Counterspell, which your party sorely lacks (you can't really rely on Warlocks for it, not enough slots), and more importantly Spirit Guardians, which is a broken spell on a Paladin, especially when quickened.
You'll still get Haste, though two levels later. But in exchange you can twin it on both yourself and the Monk/Rogue, giving them a chance to use Sneak Attack twice in one round (by readying an action). I'd still usually prefer Spirit Guardians though, it's less risky.

Finally let's get to the elephant in the room: more and higher level spell slots for smites or upcasting Spirit Guardians, which upcasts disgustingly well. All this is, imo, worth more than Improved Divine Smite.

Of course you'll need to increase your Cha. Not just because it's your casting stat, but mainly because of Aura of Protection.

[RogueJK]

Plus at level 5 you get Counterspell, which your party sorely lacks

That is an excellent point that I hadn't considered yet. Definitely a big plus in favor of 6/6. While it wouldn't come online until near the end at Level 11, it could make a decisive difference in some of the late campaign fights.

My casting stat would top out at +4 after the ASI at Pal6/Sor4, so I wouldn't be quite as good at the ability check roll, but I'd have 3x 4th and 1x 5th level slot with which to upcast Counterspell if needed, thus lessening the need to roll the ability check.

[diplomancer]

I recommend Paladin 6/Divine Soul Sorcerer 6.

The level 7 ability isn't great, even with PAM. Sure, it lets you reposition a bit in battle, but when the enemies are that close and with your 10 ft reach do you really need that ability?

Paladin 9 you woul get Haste. Problem is, unless you can quicken it, Haste is a terrible spell on a Paladin.
You waste a turn to cast it, and when you do you can't even use PAM's bonus action attack. The most you can do is using Vow of Enmity if relevant. It takes you 4 rounds total to deal more damage with Haste compared to just using that turn to attack, at the cost of a third level slot, and by that time the battle is over or almost over. The actual gain in damage is very small, you're better off using that slot to smite.
That is, if you don't lose your concentration. If you do, and no matter how good your saves you will lose it sometimes by being a frontliner, then you've just wasted two turns for no gain.

Paladin 10 you would get the anti-frighten aura. I don't know how useful it is in this campaign, but even if it is you've got a Cleric who can cast Heroes' Feast for the same effect provided you know you'll need it. Overall this ability is more useful on Conquest Paladins.

And finally Improved Divine Smite is very nice, especially with PAM, so we would miss it.



Without going into the merits of when or whether to multiclass, I believe there are two mistakes here.

First one is about haste. The round you Haste yourself, you lose only one attack, not a whole round worth of attacks. This is because you can already take an extra action on that round, that action can be the Attack action, and that, even though it allows for only one attack, can trigger the PAM Bonus action. Also, damage is not the only thing haste gives you. In fact, many times, haste is a way to give you another action that is not Attack, while still being able to take the hasted Attack action to activate your bonus PAM. You can dodge and H-attack+PAM, activate a magic object and H-attack+PAM, lay on hands and H-attack+ PAM, cast a spell (including, if you have two warlock levels, agonizing blast) and H-attack+ PAM, etc. All those options require that you sacrifice one attack, but they might still be the best option tactically.

The advice about making very sure you are not going to lose concentration is spot on, though. It's always better to be hasted than to haste yourself.

Second is about the 7th level ability, *specially in conjunction with haste*. When an enemy approaches you, PAM gives you an opportunity attack. When you take it, you are able to move 15' (30' if you are hasted). And you can move AWAY from your enemy. He will probably not have enough movement to get to you. Next round, you can approach the enemy, hit him at 10' away, and move away again (if his reach is 5', he can't even attack you), waiting for him to try to get to you one more time...it's melee kiting at its best.