Simple fixes for unpopular archetypes

[Shuruke]

So while dming ive made changes to archetypes either on purpose or complete accident that I feel like could be implemented in other groups or maybe even polished up that I thought I'd share


Barbarian
Berserker
Frightening presence - Bonus action , 8+Str+Prof for save dc

Storm herald- rage damage is added to damage of storms


Bard

Valor Bard- when using the inspiration for damage or a.c roll two dice


Cleric

Nature Domain- Channel divinity causes rough terrain for enemies in addition to the charm


Trickery domain- channel divinity gives allies within 5 feet of the illusion have advantage on first attack each turn

Druid

Land druid - Choose a sub region , you gain its 1st, 2nd, and third level spells at the designated levels

Fighter

Champion
Remarkable athlete- adds proficiency bonus to ability checks and saving throws using dex and str rather than 1/2

Monk-

4 elements- when using action on elemental discipline till the end of your next turn you can use Step of wind without ki cost.

Paladin
None (none have appeared at my table so havent accidentally misruled or changed anything intentionally.)

Ranger

Beastmaster
Animal companion- HP is 4+Rangers wisdom per ranger level

Animal companion- animal companion attacks when you cast a ranger or druid spell

7th level feature- no longer bonus action. Instead happens whenever you take attack action. Uses pets reaction


Hunter Ranger

7th level - In addition choose an additional 3rd level feature

11th level- in addition choose an additional 3rd level feature

Sorcerer

Wild magic

- Rolls 1d6 instead of 1d20 for determining if they roll on table. Roll 2 d100 and choose one. This increases to 3 would it would normally increase to 2

-anytime you trigger an effect on the table you regain the charge of your advantage on ability check, saving throw, or attack roll feature. When you gain the third d100 you gain a second charge of this feature.


Warlock- none


Wizard-

Conjuration- the created object has wizard c level x int hp
Enchantment school- Bonus action to maintain the 2nd level feature

Transmutation school- start with 2 transmuter stones but only work if on different people.


Also if you want specefic reasoning for why i did x change just ask.

Most of them i just wanted to better fit their idea or to have a better role/ be unique

[Kane0]

Taking notes, i’ll probably edit in some specific thoughts later when i get the chance



Storm Herald Barbarian - rage damage is added to damage of storms
Valor Bard - when using the inspiration for damage roll two dice

Those are good, I like them.


The Berserker Barb suffers primarily from the exhaustion, that's what you're going to want to look at.

For Trickery Cleric, I also let them see from the illusion's position as well as cast from it

4E monk just needs better Ki economy, such as by reducing their power costs or providing extra ki just for those disciplines. More choices and features besides the discipline powers wouldn't hurt either.

Wild Magic sorc is fine if you roll often, just hardcode it in rather than leaving it up to the DM. You probably want to roll with every levelled spell cast in most cases.

Beastmaster Ranger can't really be addressed with a quick and dirty.

[CheddarChampion]

Berserker
Frightening presence - Bonus action , 8+Str+Prof for save dc

Frenzy is the prohibitive part. I say automatically remove exhaustion gained from it after thirty minutes in game.


Storm herald- rage damage is added to damage of storms
That's pretty good.


Valor Bard- when using the inspiration for damage or a.c roll two dice
That seems too good to me. +2dX to AC is close to a guaranteed miss. Maybe just add a fighting style from the fighter's list?


Nature Domain- Channel divinity causes rough terrain for enemies in addition to the charm
I don't think this domain is unpopular. Picking up Shillelagh is pretty good.


Land druid - Choose a sub region , you gain its 1st, 2nd, and third level spells at the designated levels
That's pretty strong. Maybe just "You can prepare these spells as though they were on the druid spell list?"


Champion
Remarkable athlete- adds proficiency bonus to ability checks and saving throws using dex and str rather than 1/2
Uh, so proficiency with all Str and Dex saves and checks? That's Athletics, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Initiative, Strength saves, Dexterity saves, Thieves' Tools...
How about you instead add half proficiency on top of any proficiency to Str and Dex checks?


4 elements- when using action on elemental discipline till the end of your next turn you can use Step of wind without ki cost.
I think a buff that lets the monk move more at the cost of action economy on the condition that they use their action for something kinda weak is inelegant. They're probably already where they want to be and there's no flavor.
How about they can make an unarmed attack as a bonus action that deals the same damage type as the effect they used as an action? (Fire, Cold, Lightning, Force)


Beastmaster
Animal companion- HP is 4+Rangers wisdom per ranger level

Animal companion- animal companion attacks when you cast a ranger or druid spell

7th level feature- no longer bonus action. Instead happens whenever you take attack action. Uses pets reaction
Looks good to me.


Hunter Ranger

7th level - In addition choose an additional 3rd level feature

11th level- in addition choose an additional 3rd level feature
I don't think this is an unpopular or weak subclass.


Wild magic

- Rolls 1d6 instead of 1d20 for determining if they roll on table. Roll 2 d100 and choose one. This increases to 3 would it would normally increase to 2

-anytime you trigger an effect on the table you regain the charge of your advantage on ability check, saving throw, or attack roll feature. When you gain the third d100 you gain a second charge of this feature.
Wild magic is fun for the 'Instigator' player type. Let Wild Magic be Wild Magic. If you're the DM just let them roll more often.


Wizard-

Conjuration- the created object has wizard c level x int hp
Enchantment school- Bonus action to maintain the 2nd level feature

Transmutation school- start with 2 transmuter stones but only work if on different people.
Conjured objects don't need HP to be useful.
The Enchantment change makes it hard CC: no save after the first, right? This will let you cantrip a solo enemy to death because there's no time limit.
Transmutation is fine as is. The stone is potent.

I think a lot of these aren't popular in your experience but mine is different.
A buff isn't necessary for many of these if the problem is just that what they do have is not appreciated.

What are you trying to accomplish anyway? To see how they do in play? Why not play one or offer to run a game specifically for characters with such subclasses?

[kazaryu]

Sorcerer

Wild magic

- Rolls 1d6 instead of 1d20 for determining if they roll on table. Roll 2 d100 and choose one. This increases to 3 would it would normally increase to 2

-anytime you trigger an effect on the table you regain the charge of your advantage on ability check, saving throw, or attack roll feature. When you gain the third d100 you gain a second charge of this feature.



I think the 'problem' with wild magic is that thencore feature is entirely up to the DM. Specifically its up to the dm to function. And with the dm having a zillion other things to take care of this just seems silly.

I think thebway you 'fix' wild magic is to have a more mechanical way of determinining when you roll to see if you surge.

As an examle instead of 'the dm can have you' you have
Wild maguc surge: whenever you cast a spell roll 1d10, if you roll equal to or lower than the spell level you cast, then roll a d20... etc.

Tides of luck: whenever you cast a 1st level spell (after having used tides of luck) roll 2 d10s and keep thenlower value, if its lower than the level of the spell you cast thennroll on the wild magic surge table.

Obviously you can sdjust the die used and such, but thebidea being that instead of the onus being on the dm to remember to have you roll, you have an actual mechanic that decides it.

[Potato_Priest]

I like your correction to the BM ranger, but would like to add the following: as you gain a level, it also gains a hit die based on its size (that way they can heal during short rests like other party members).

[Shuruke]

I like your correction to the BM ranger, but would like to add the following: as you gain a level, it also gains a hit die based on its size (that way they can heal during short rests like other party members).

Tbh i thought thay was already added in am errata
Their hit dice being a d6 hence the 4 per level 3.5 rounded up

[Shuruke]

I think the 'problem' with wild magic is that thencore feature is entirely up to the DM. Specifically its up to the dm to function. And with the dm having a zillion other things to take care of this just seems silly.

I think thebway you 'fix' wild magic is to have a more mechanical way of determinining when you roll to see if you surge.

As an examle instead of 'the dm can have you' you have
Wild maguc surge: whenever you cast a spell roll 1d10, if you roll equal to or lower than the spell level you cast, then roll a d20... etc.

Tides of luck: whenever you cast a 1st level spell (after having used tides of luck) roll 2 d10s and keep thenlower value, if its lower than the level of the spell you cast thennroll on the wild magic surge table.

Obviously you can sdjust the die used and such, but thebidea being that instead of the onus being on the dm to remember to have you roll, you have an actual mechanic that decides it.

That was one of big concerns id seen online alpt and wanted to make it so the wild part of it and the fate twisting part was more in players corner even if its not for the character

[Shuruke]

Frenzy is the prohibitive part. I say automatically remove exhaustion gained from it after thirty minutes in game.

Doing this made it feel more of a decision rather than "I frenzy" in some fights being very scary and still being able to attack were extremely useful. Both berserkers who played it enjoyed the frighten being the more iconic part of their character
That's pretty good.


That seems too good to me. +2dX to AC is close to a guaranteed miss. Maybe just add a fighting style from the fighter's list?

That's kind of how i felt at first but after a lot of math and comparison between monsters with multiple attacks , their proficiencies, stats, and with other things being a reaction ,for all attacks (shield),non resource feat defensive duelist ,all attacks general (shield of faith. I came to conclusion that
2d6 (7)
2d8 (9)
2d10 (11)
On one attack as an option for reaction vof a per short rest resource was %wise very similar to shield and sof.



I don't think this domain is unpopular. Picking up Shillelagh is pretty good.
Yes but as a channel divinity it is one of the very situational not come up much ones. Giving alternate use/ also a buff for getting in way of one's whom pass save makes it more appealing. Changes first thought of thats meh compared to others. Had a player whom although loved nature worshipping character idea didn't feel. Right.not just playing druid. This change and allowing a always prepared spell to be changed with a xanathar druid spell (tidal wave traded for barkskin) meshed alpt better with what they were looking for. Their heavy armor was reflavored as giant crab carapace


That's pretty strong. Maybe just "You can prepare these spells as though they were on the druid spell list?"
This one i haven't worked with as much but putting the land druid as THE druid with spell focus this was start idea. Player really enjoyed it and i didn't feel like having the options really overbuffed it but treating it like warlocks expanded spell list is a gopd solution.



Uh, so proficiency with all Str and Dex saves and checks? That's Athletics, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Initiative, Strength saves, Dexterity saves, Thieves' Tools...
How about you instead add half proficiency on top of any proficiency to Str and Dex checks?
For this i double buffed it
Usually its 1/2 prof i made it full and then added saves.
I don't know how itll interact with mcing but as pure champion it gives 1 save (dex) and a more focused but stronger version of jack of all trades from bard. I wanted to cement.the Champion as being the physical mortal peak.
The player really enjoyed the extra contribution. "Oh! I can help attempt it with you two." Was a fun pop up. On a larger scale.it might not be as gppd and simple adding the save part of it while keeping it 1/2 prof might be enough considering how often dex saves come up and how oftem champion is heavy armor lower dex character.
Having it be 1.5xprofociency is step away from what i was looking for. Best way is to think of it as the physical macho man version of jack of all trades.



I think a buff that lets the monk move more at the cost of action economy on the condition that they use their action for something kinda weak is inelegant. They're probably already where they want to be and there's no flavor.
How about they can make an unarmed attack as a bonus action that deals the same damage type as the effect they used as an action? (Fire, Cold, Lightning, Force)

My main reasons for this were. A. None of monk archetypes really.did anything with step of the wind. All were flurry centric.
B. In avatar last air bender the benders were an absolute pain for.anyone to pin down.

Your right about them most likely being in the right position already. However using it for positioning to launch/ pull to allies to disengage. Pr just disengage because nearby enemies for free up to twice is a nice little ribbon. The big one is step of the wind has dodge action, this means the turn you cast the spell ypu can dodge for no cost. And the following turn if needed you can again. Allows things like cast, dodge, move up, next turn attack action disengage move back or etc.

Was her first time playing dnd and went with it. That small change I feel made a huge impact.for how the character played. Being very sticky in some fights and hard to pin down in others. The flavor was they would have the element they casted stick arpund amd aid them in some way. Moving them to safety, skating with fore to catch someone. Being defended by water etc




Wild magic is fun for the 'Instigator' player type. Let Wild Magic be Wild Magic. If you're the DM just let them roll more often.


Conjured objects don't need HP to be useful.
The Enchantment change makes it hard CC: no save after the first, right? This will let you cantrip a solo enemy to death because there's no time limit.
Transmutation is fine as is. The stone is potent.

Accidentally snipped out chunk

But buffed hunter ranger because when xanathars was released they gave all the rangers expanded spell list. Instead of shoe hornimg that in i wanted to add to idea.that the hunter is a trained and aspiring hunter. Where other conclaves learn more spells they learn how to hunt mpre types of game.
Had 4 players look at hunter go meh and grab xanathar ranger. Talked to each of them amd this is what I came up with. I've had 2 Rangers since then and ome was gonna go for a witcher esq feel looking at monster hunter but liked the idea of instead of knowing monsters weaknesses statistically he liked knowing specefic tactics.



For Sorcerer i had heard alot of moxed feelings of DM allowed to much
Allowed never
Etc
And i just decided to increase the % odd from 5% to ~16.5% by making it a d6

Allow 2d100 instead of 1 so that even though you roleplay as character having no control the player has some agency. Same.with the recharge of the advantage. Its more of anyone as a dm is unsure of when to allow ot to recharge. Just slightly change it so it handles itself and u manage the narrative.


For wizard you can't cantrip tp death any damage ends it and then it cant be used on them again.

The change is specifically for locking down a target for later/capture , or as an attempt.to get a target off of you and then to continue holding for following turns until an ally can help. Etc
This just makes it slightly better at buying. Time
Ie lose 1 action if they save, delay enemy while you deal woth their allies.

Note- an ally of can snap.them out of it with an attack


For transmutation wizard I felt that Yes the bonus and adapting them while stone is onself is a good.and fun concept , but adding the 1 additional stone that has to be on soemone else gives it more hmph. I had a player playing transmutation wizard up to 9 in a 1-10 group and although mimor alchemy has a lot of uses. Adding this little bit as a buff and watching them enjoy playing a game of pass when he changed the damage resistance and threw it to barbarian while the rogue enjoyed extra 10 movement is a fun bit. Maybe not completely neccesary but id seen very little interest in transmutation wizard in general other than theory crafting for minor alchemy.

For conjuration the big reason for addimg the health was for sake of the persom creating weapons and for ally or self, and because giving it health meamt i didnt need to play the game of what counts as any damage which had started happening. Made this ruling on fly and it went from level 3-15 afterward woth no further issues.



As for what im trying to accomplish

Nothing really tbh
Just.showing fixes ive done at my table that might save people from going to one of the many remastered homebrew versions of a class. Alot of.the fixes that ive done ive tried limiting to 1-2 sentences or even just replace or erase a word when looking at phb writing.
Kinda like homebrew erratas

[sithlordnergal]

Might I make a suggestion:

Necromancer Subclass, replace:

Whenever you create an undead using a necromancy spell, it has additional benefits:

• The creature's hit point maximum is increased by an amount equal to your wizard level.

• The creature adds your proficiency bonus to its weapon damage rolls.

with

Whenever you create an undead using a necromancy spell, it has additional benefits:

• The creature's attacks become magical for the purpose of overcoming damage resistance and immunity

• The creature's hit point maximum is increased by an amount equal to half your wizard level.

• The creature adds your proficiency bonus to its weapon attack rolls


That allows your bog standard undead to remain useful at all tiers of play without being OP, rather then reaching a point where your standard undead do literally nothing because even though you can have 20 of them, they're fighting things immune to non-magical attacks and weapons. I honestly don't get why they didn't do that in the first place...Moon Druids and Monks got that at level 6, and now both the Revised Beastmaster and Shepard Druid have mooks that do magical damage at 6th level.

[kazaryu]

Might I make a suggestion:

Necromancer Subclass, replace:

Whenever you create an undead using a necromancy spell, it has additional benefits:

• The creature's hit point maximum is increased by an amount equal to your wizard level.

• The creature adds your proficiency bonus to its weapon damage rolls.

with

Whenever you create an undead using a necromancy spell, it has additional benefits:

• The creature's attacks become magical for the purpose of overcoming damage resistance and immunity

• The creature's hit point maximum is increased by an amount equal to half your wizard level.

• The creature adds your proficiency bonus to its weapon attack rolls


That allows your bog standard undead to remain useful at all tiers of play without being OP, rather then reaching a point where your standard undead do literally nothing because even though you can have 20 of them, they're fighting things immune to non-magical attacks and weapons. I honestly don't get why they didn't do that in the first place...Moon Druids and Monks got that at level 6, and now both the Revised Beastmaster and Shepard Druid have mooks that do magical damage at 6th level.

1. Giving your undead full proficiency scaling would be op af...in fact, technically it would be better than full proficiency scaling because undead already have proficiency (as do all monsters).

20 zombies already take up space on the battlefield, thus acting as a control mechanism that you dont need to concentrate on. They dont also need to give you full sneak attack scaling on top of that.

If you want you undead to do magic damage, use skeletons, give them weapons, and oil them up. If youre in a super low magic setting, and thus theres no option available to give a mass magucal weapons, even temporarily, and youre *still* fighting exclusively physcal damage immune creatures then come up with a different strategy.

Should sorcerers get an option to let them ignore fire immunity just becuase they only picked fire damage spells and the end boss is a red dragon?

[MrStabby]

I think there is a risk that you end up balancing a subclass against other subclasses of the same class, rather than the options as a whole. Enchanter wizard is a powerful, powerful character that is going to be able to at least hold its own against 90% of other subclasses. It seems like you are buffing it, not because it is weak, but simply because the few player options that are stronger than it happen to be in the same class. Likewise for Valor bard.

For other "fixes" I think you have not always identified the issues. For example I think the 4 elements monk does have a Ki problem but more significantly it only gets spells at the level where they are no longer fun and have been used by other characters for a long time. Fireball at level 5 is awesome, at level 17 it is a lot less exciting. Likewise their spells don't really mesh with the playstyle of the monk. I think the fix probably should involve a special monk spell list.

Love the storm Herald fix though. That totally works for me.

[sithlordnergal]

1. Giving your undead full proficiency scaling would be op af...in fact, technically it would be better than full proficiency scaling because undead already have proficiency (as do all monsters).

20 zombies already take up space on the battlefield, thus acting as a control mechanism that you dont need to concentrate on. They dont also need to give you full sneak attack scaling on top of that.

If you want you undead to do magic damage, use skeletons, give them weapons, and oil them up. If youre in a super low magic setting, and thus theres no option available to give a mass magucal weapons, even temporarily, and youre *still* fighting exclusively physcal damage immune creatures then come up with a different strategy.

Should sorcerers get an option to let them ignore fire immunity just becuase they only picked fire damage spells and the end boss is a red dragon?

Hmmm...you have a point there, full proficiency bonus might be too much...how about half? In order to keep up with enemy AC.

As for getting magic items, you guys have magic shops in the world? Also, that would cost a ton. In all seriousness, the magical attacks should be a thing though. I again point towards the Sheppard Druid and Revised Beastmaster. Both subclasses have creatures that either are summoned or are companions to them, both of those creatures gain a natural magical attack. If we wanted to go the "find them a magic item" route, then there'd be no need to give them an automatic magical attack.

I'm all for that. Sorcerers can get a Metamagic that allows them to ignore immunity on the damage type of the next spell they cast. Its pretty strong sooo...I'd say it costs 2+spell level Sorcery Points.

I'd also be for Evocation Wizards being able to ignore Immunity for a specific Damage type that doesn't change, same for Warlocks. Maybe since their's wouldn't have as great of a cost, allow them to treat all Immunity to a specific, prechosen damage type as Resistance instead.

[kazaryu]

Hmmm...you have a point there, full proficiency bonus might be too much...how about half? In order to keep up with enemy AC.
No. The way it keeps up with enemy AC is via a larger swarm. Realistically 21/22 ac is some of the highest it gets without getting into epic enemies (and even the ones that are that high are celesitals..which pose an entirely different set of issues to your undead horde



As for getting magic items, you guys have magic shops in the world? Also, that would cost a ton. In all seriousness, the magical attacks should be a thing though.

No it wouldnt, i did say 'get permanent magic items' i specifically mentioned 'temporary'. And heavily implied an oil. Similar to a potion.


I again point towards the Sheppard Druid and Revised Beastmaster. Both subclasses have creatures that either are summoned or are companions to them, both of those creatures gain a natural magical attack.

Ok first the easy one: the ranger feature applies to a single creature, hardly comparable.

Theres a couple of things about the shepard druid: first and foremost, it was released after the phb came out, if its stronger than a phb option than the correct course should be to fix the shepard.

That being said, im not sure that it is stronger. The shepard druid specifically applies to creatures that are far more temporary. And far easier to remove from the battlefield. So not really comparable.


I'm all for that. Sorcerers can get a Metamagic that allows them to ignore immunity on the damage type of the next spell they cast. Its pretty strong sooo...I'd say it costs 2+spell level Sorcery Points.
Metamagic is one thing, its limited (also raises some questions about the narrative side (like...how does a fire elemental get burnt?). But it has an opportunity cost.
My point that youre responding too was that some strategies arent going to be viable in all situations. And they shouldnt be. Being a minion mancer is strong enough, it doesnt need to have all of its weaknesses removed.


I'd also be for Evocation Wizards being able to ignore Immunity for a specific Damage type that doesn't change, same for Warlocks. Maybe since their's wouldn't have as great of a cost, allow them to treat all Immunity to a specific, prechosen damage type as Resistance instead.
Well that backfired lmao. Eh, i mean as a player at your table i obviously wouldnt say no to the buff. But, its a fairly significant buff. To classes that are already near the top of the heap

[Shuruke]

Might I make a suggestion:

Necromancer Subclass, replace:

Whenever you create an undead using a necromancy spell, it has additional benefits:

• The creature's hit point maximum is increased by an amount equal to your wizard level.

• The creature adds your proficiency bonus to its weapon damage rolls.

with

Whenever you create an undead using a necromancy spell, it has additional benefits:

• The creature's attacks become magical for the purpose of overcoming damage resistance and immunity

• The creature's hit point maximum is increased by an amount equal to half your wizard level.

• The creature adds your proficiency bonus to its weapon attack rolls


That allows your bog standard undead to remain useful at all tiers of play without being OP, rather then reaching a point where your standard undead do literally nothing because even though you can have 20 of them, they're fighting things immune to non-magical attacks and weapons. I honestly don't get why they didn't do that in the first place...Moon Druids and Monks got that at level 6, and now both the Revised Beastmaster and Shepard Druid have mooks that do magical damage at 6th level.

I think for the necromancer big reason for it is because they are permanent
On enemies with resistance just having mooks knock prone so fighter and etc has advantage , along with having them grant squishies cover from aoes is already gold tactic

[sithlordnergal]

No. The way it keeps up with enemy AC is via a larger swarm. Realistically 21/22 ac is some of the highest it gets without getting into epic enemies (and even the ones that are that high are celesitals..which pose an entirely different set of issues to your undead horde


...I just looked it up, you're absolutely correct...AC doesn't get into astronomically high numbers. Still high, but not crazy high



No it wouldnt, i did say 'get permanent magic items' i specifically mentioned 'temporary'. And heavily implied an oil. Similar to a potion.


That's actually far more expensive then you might think. Oil of Sharpness is the only coating I can find that turns a weapon magical, it lasts for 1 minute and turns either a single weapon or 5 pieces of ammunition into a +3 item. It is a Very Rare item, and from what I can find the suggested cost would be around 3,200gp or so. You'd be far better off buying +1 weapons for each of your undead...but again, that gets extremely expensive. Why do Necromancers have to pay a ton of money to use their subclass' signature abilities when subclasses like the Sheppard Druid or Revised Beastmaster do not?




Ok first the easy one: the ranger feature applies to a single creature, hardly comparable.

Theres a couple of things about the shepard druid: first and foremost, it was released after the phb came out, if its stronger than a phb option than the correct course should be to fix the shepard.

That being said, im not sure that it is stronger. The shepard druid specifically applies to creatures that are far more temporary. And far easier to remove from the battlefield. So not really comparable.


I would actually say that the Shepard Druid is far stronger. Conjure Animals is one of the strongest minionmancy spells in the game, since you can instantly summon 8 CR 1/4 beasts to your side with a single 3rd level spell for an entire hour. Not only does the duration mean it can last for more then one encounter, there's a plethora of beasts to choose from that fit almost any occasion. In order for the Necromancer to have 8 CR 1/4 creatures at their beck and call, they'd need to use two 4th level slots, and two 3rd level slots to cast Animate Dead, and all they can choose are zombies or skeletons. And on top of that the Shepard Druid's summons all automatically have magical attacks and don't require the material cost of a corpse.

Now, Shepard Druid was released after the PHB...which is why I feel its a better guide to what is and isn't balanced in 5e compared to the PHB. The designers had a lot more time time and data about what works and didn't work when they made Xanathar's then they did the PHB. As a result, they were able to build classes that better suited the mechanics of 5e. I get the feeling that the designers realized that classes which use minionmancy need to have an easy way to get past magic resistance in order to remain relevant and useful throughout all tiers of play.




Metamagic is one thing, its limited (also raises some questions about the narrative side (like...how does a fire elemental get burnt?). But it has an opportunity cost.
My point that youre responding too was that some strategies arent going to be viable in all situations. And they shouldnt be. Being a minion mancer is strong enough, it doesnt need to have all of its weaknesses removed.

Well that backfired lmao. Eh, i mean as a player at your table i obviously wouldnt say no to the buff. But, its a fairly significant buff. To classes that are already near the top of the heap

I mean, minionmancy already has several weaknesses, the biggest ones are:

- Room to use it

- AoEs

- Minions having lower attack bonuses.

- limited by spell slots available

Giving the necromancer a way to keep its main subclass abilities relevant in late game encounters, by which I mean Tier 4, is hardly making a strategy "viable in all situations". Its simply making it so the Necromancer is a worthwhile pick at all levels. As it is right now, if a player wanted to play a Necromancer because they wanted to command a small army and be a minionmancer, I would not recommend the Necromancer. I find they don't hold up in the late game at all because their undead are unable to get through weapon resistance and immunity, on top of requiring you to spend most of your spell slots in order to keep your undead army around and serving you.

And yeah, I DM with the philosophy of "There is no such thing as an OP PC, simply poorly designed encounters". I've yet to find a PC build or party composition that cannot be countered through a clever use of environment and proper enemy choice, and I've done quite a bit of DMing. As a result I've never really found anything that needed to be nerfed. Heck, I don't even count the one time that could have been an exception to my rule because the player in question was clearly abusing AL rules at the time.

Basically there's a rule in AL that allows players to continue to play a Hardcover campaign, even if they tier out of said hardcover. The rule is meant to be used by players who do all the modules and hardcover things in a season, and end up being 1 or 2 levels above what the book is meant to be played at. The player in question abused the rule by bringing in a level 9 character, then boosting said character to level 15 between sessions with DM exp/checkpoints. They technically didn't break any rules, but they were clearly abusing the rule in a way that was not intended.

[Shuruke]

Taking notes, i’ll probably edit in some specific thoughts later when i get the chance


Those are good, I like them.


The Berserker Barb suffers primarily from the exhaustion, that's what you're going to want to look at.

Tbh ive played one and dmed and yes the exaughstion is their, but I think alot of people pick at it because they think of thag feature as THE feature for the class. Buffing the frightful presence feature to where its botg useable in combat and scales with strength makes not frenzying an actual tactic. (Question is then do i frenzy for the damage at cost of exaughstion or just use bonus actions for frighten.) Makes it so they still have something 2 do with archetype


For Trickery Cleric, I also let them see from the illusion's position as well as cast from it
Ooooooo thats fun touch


4E monk just needs better Ki economy, such as by reducing their power costs or providing extra ki just for those disciplines. More choices and features besides the discipline powers wouldn't hurt either.

Thats fair , but instead of messing with cost I instead added another bomus for using said abilities. If you use step of wind as bonus action that turn and next turn it nets to being better than lowering cost by 1. Also with the ua variant rules im hoping get into a book anytime a monk spends ki with an action they can make 1 bonus action attack which is a buff to 4e and sun soul.

Also it isnt just a ki economy issue, its an identity issue as well. Making the 4e monk the step of the wind extra mobile able to dodge alot monk fives it a niche. Is it great , eh. But its a quick fix that can make for a lot of fun.



Wild Magic sorc is fine if you roll often, just hardcode it in rather than leaving it up to the DM. You probably want to roll with every levelled spell cast in most cases.

Mhmm thats why I changed it from 1 on a d20 (5% chance to roll on table.) To 1 in d6 (~16.5% chance) which makes it come up much more often. But as is it is great if u habe a dm that lets u do it as much as u want, but u wont always have thay


Beast Master Ranger can't really be addressed with a quick and dirty.

Thats fair, but even a small quick and dirty is better than leaving as is.

And making it feel more team oriented for
When I cast pet attacks
When I attack pet helps/dodges/disengages.
Without the ranger actually using economy for it makes large difference. Is it perfect no far from it, but it feels playable.



Thanks for your edited feed back!

[Shuruke]

...I just looked it up, you're absolutely correct...AC doesn't get into astronomically high numbers. Still high, but not crazy high




That's actually far more expensive then you might think. Oil of Sharpness is the only coating I can find that turns a weapon magical, it lasts for 1 minute and turns either a single weapon or 5 pieces of ammunition into a +3 item. It is a Very Rare item, and from what I can find the suggested cost would be around 3,200gp or so. You'd be far better off buying +1 weapons for each of your undead...but again, that gets extremely expensive. Why do Necromancers have to pay a ton of money to use their subclass' signature abilities when subclasses like the Sheppard Druid or Revised Beastmaster do not?




I would actually say that the Shepard Druid is far stronger. Conjure Animals is one of the strongest minionmancy spells in the game, since you can instantly summon 8 CR 1/4 beasts to your side with a single 3rd level spell for an entire hour. Not only does the duration mean it can last for more then one encounter, there's a plethora of beasts to choose from that fit almost any occasion. In order for the Necromancer to have 8 CR 1/4 creatures at their beck and call, they'd need to use two 4th level slots, and two 3rd level slots to cast Animate Dead, and all they can choose are zombies or skeletons. And on top of that the Shepard Druid's summons all automatically have magical attacks and don't require the material cost of a corpse.

Now, Shepard Druid was released after the PHB...which is why I feel its a better guide to what is and isn't balanced in 5e compared to the PHB. The designers had a lot more time time and data about what works and didn't work when they made Xanathar's then they did the PHB. As a result, they were able to build classes that better suited the mechanics of 5e. I get the feeling that the designers realized that classes which use minionmancy need to have an easy way to get past magic resistance in order to remain relevant and useful throughout all tiers of play.



Thats fair

I think personally id leave it as is and add the

-Attacks of undead you control are magical for sake of resistances and immunity

At level 14 feature as small tacked on sentence

Your issue seems to be for later tiers and this is a decent way to address it without stepping on toes of shepherd whom doesnt get +prof to damage

[sithlordnergal]

Thats fair

I think personally id leave it as is and add the

-Attacks of undead you control are magical for sake of resistances and immunity

At level 14 feature as small tacked on sentence

Your issue seems to be for later tiers and this is a decent way to address it without stepping on toes of shepherd whom doesnt get +prof to damage

Ok yeah, move it down to 14th level...that would keep things well balanced, and it comes online at around the time when a martial character has to have a magic weapon of some sort in order to remain relevant at all.

[Shuruke]

Ok yeah, move it down to 14th level...that would keep things well balanced, and it comes online at around the time when a martial character has to have a magic weapon of some sort in order to remain relevant at all.

Mhmm!! Thays exactly how u were thinking but just werent implementing it exactly right ^.^

Alot of changes ive made have been based off this kinda excercise

[kazaryu]

...I just looked it up, you're absolutely correct...AC doesn't get into astronomically high numbers. Still high, but not crazy high



Yeh. Thats half the reason bounded accuracy works.



That's actually far more expensive then you might think. Oil of Sharpness is the only coating I can find that turns a weapon magical, it lasts for 1 minute and turns either a single weapon or 5 pieces of ammunition into a +3 item. It is a Very Rare item, and from what I can find the suggested cost would be around 3,200gp or so. You'd be far better off buying +1 weapons for each of your undead...but again, that gets extremely expensive. Why do Necromancers have to pay a ton of money to use their subclass' signature abilities when subclasses like the Sheppard Druid or Revised Beastmaster do not?

The fact that the only example item you can find turns weapons into a +3 weapon creates the prescedant that oils exist that would make the weapons just magical, no enhancement bonus. And it should be far, far cheaper. Remember, the creators didnt list every possible magic item that would exist, in the same way they didnt spell out every single spell that would logically exist.





I would actually say that the Shepard Druid is far stronger. Conjure Animals is one of the strongest minionmancy spells in the game, since you can instantly summon 8 CR 1/4 beasts to your side with a single 3rd level spell for an entire hour. Not only does the duration mean it can last for more then one encounter, there's a plethora of beasts to choose from that fit almost any occasion
up to 24 actually, and i agree the conjuring spells break action eceonomy far more. I was more comparing the features.


In order for the Necromancer to have 8 CR 1/4 creatures at their beck and call, they'd need to use two 4th level slots, and two 3rd level slots to cast Animate Dead, and all they can choose are zombies or skeletons. And on top of that the Shepard Druid's summons all automatically have magical attacks and don't require the material cost of a corpse.

On the flip side they cant be dispelled, can be pre equipped with gear, and are already there when you get ambushed.


Now, Shepard Druid was released after the PHB...which is why I feel its a better guide to what is and isn't balanced in 5e compared to the PHB. ....I get the feeling that the designers realized that classes which use minionmancy need to have an easy way to get past magic resistance in order to remain relevant and useful throughout all tiers of play.

A mass of undead *is* still useful at high tiers of play, they serve as are denial if nothing else. And imo its not that they had an realizations about 'balance' (its fairly evidence that most balance issues come from splat books, not pure phb). Its that design philosophies changed. They started giving classes features to keep up with presumed magic items (which is something that wasnt part of phb).




I mean, minionmancy already has several weaknesses, the biggest ones are:

- Room to use it

- AoEs

- Minions having lower attack bonuses.

- limited by spell slots available

Room: not a weakness, gives you more abolity to control the flow of battle
AOE: sure but thats shared between the two types, not exclusive to necro
Lower attack bonuses: compensated for by having more of them
Spell slot: this is truly a weakness. In order to have a large oppressive horde you need to give up several spell slots everyday.



Giving the necromancer a way to keep its main subclass abilities relevant in late game encounters, by which I mean Tier 4, is hardly making a strategy "viable in all situations". Its simply making it so the Necromancer is a worthwhile pick at all levels. As it is right now, if a player wanted to play a Necromancer because they wanted to command a small army and be a minionmancer, I would not recommend the Necromancer. I find they don't hold up in the late game at all because their undead are unable to get through weapon resistance and immunity, on top of requiring you to spend most of your spell slots in order to keep your undead army around and serving you.



Thats fair, but its not an issue thats as easy as 'let them ignore the resistance' because now the necromancer breaks action economy (conjuring casters have this problem too). Theres no simple fix for this in a system where bounded accuracy is a thing

Edit: oh, also, this goes back to something i breifly alluded to but never exponded on previously. Dnd5e is built.onnaction economy, so even high tier fights should have more than just the big bad. Which means there should be some creatures that arent completely immune to the damage anyway. .

On top of that, if you just freely let everyone bypass the immunity, then the immunity has no meaning. Might as well just get rid of it altogether rather than changing the necromancer. On the other hand, if you point it out to your players, so they know this is a challenge to be overcome, then you might get to see your players do some crazy creative thing

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Stuff

For the barbarian's berserker subclass...

Have the extra attack NOT give fatigue but have a bonus action attack that deals base 1d4 damage.

So the second round of rage and onward you can deal 1d4 + str + rage bonus damage as a bonus action.

Frightful Presence is fine as is. My only issue with it is that focusing on charisma means you can't help your Wisdom saving throws as much. Change the saving throw system and you fix this issue.

[MrStabby]

I'd also be for Evocation Wizards being able to ignore Immunity for a specific Damage type that doesn't change, same for Warlocks. Maybe since their's wouldn't have as great of a cost, allow them to treat all Immunity to a specific, prechosen damage type as Resistance instead.

I am not sure this is such a good idea. At the moment spells seem to have an element of balance (pun intended) as some damage types tend to do more damage but are more resisted. If you let fire damage still so more damage than acid spells or cold spells and general have better options but take away the widespread resistance there is to fire then it is a) a major boost to casters that don't really need it and b) means that there are a whole lot of spells that are just not worth taking any more.

I could see more of an argument for things like fiend pact warlocks than wizards. They get cool damaging spells but don't get to pick their element; they never got to chose if they were prepared to have less efficient but less resisted spells (I would say light cleric is a bit different as fewer of the spells are direct fire damage only and the class has a lot of radiant damage spells available anyway).

The death cleric ignores resistance to necrotic damage at level 6. This is a pretty major class feature for them; it isn't the kind of thing that I think should just be handed out readily.