So, how EXACTLY do critical hits work?

[Phhase]

The rules say:

"When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack's damage against the target. Roll all of the attack's damage dice twice and add them together. Then add any relevant modifiers as normal. To speed up play, you can roll all the damage dice at once.

For example, if you score a critical hit with a dagger, roll 2d4 for the damage, rather than 1d4, and then add your relevant ability modifier. If the attack involves other damage dice, such as from the rogue's Sneak Attack feature, you roll those dice twice as well."

So here's what I take away: any flat bonuses (such as your strength modifier, or the extra damage from Hexblade's Curse) are not doubled, but the quantity of dice is. In the quoted rule, it specifically says "..involves other damage dice, such as [but not limited to] from the rogue's Sneak Attack...".

So...what kinds of dice are affected? What if you crit with a flaming sword? Does the fire damage get rolled twice? And if the enemy you are hitting is afflicted with Elemental Bane, does that damage get multiplied too? What about Hex damage? What about Green-Flame Blade, or another weapon-attack spell? What if there is poison on the weapon? What about a class feature that adds extra dice, like the Fighter's Brute subclass? What if you're throwing a grenadelike weapon like Alchemist's Fire? Or alternatively, a lit bottle of oil, which does a flat 10 damage over 2 turns?

So to speak: what qualifies as "dice involved in the attack?"

Bonus: Is it actually written anywhere that spell attack rolls can't crit?

[kazaryu]

So here's what I take away: any flat bonuses (such as your strength modifier, or the extra damage from Hexblade's Curse) are not doubled, but the quantity of dice is. In the quoted rule, it specifically says "..involves other damage dice, such as [but not limited to] from the rogue's Sneak Attack...".

So...what kinds of dice are affected? What if you crit with a flaming sword? Does the fire damage get rolled twice? And if the enemy you are hitting is afflicted with Elemental Bane, does that damage get multiplied too? What about Hex damage? What about Green-Flame Blade, or another weapon-attack spell? What if there is poison on the weapon? What about a class feature that adds extra dice, like the Fighter's Brute subclass? What if you're throwing a grenadelike weapon like Alchemist's Fire? Or alternatively, a lit bottle of oil, which does a flat 10 damage over 2 turns?

So to speak: what qualifies as "dice involved in the attack?"

Bonus: Is it actually written anywhere that spell attack rolls can't crit?

Flame sword: yes
Elemental bane: yes, if the damage that triggers it was an attack roll
Hex:yes
Gfb: the damage on hit, yes. But not the secondary damage
Poison: this one is kind of a sticky question, since its not just damage on hit, it also requires a saving throw, but raw yes
Battlemaster dice: yes
Grenade: if its an attack roll and not a saving throw then it would double the dice on whoever you targetted with the attack, but aoe damage would not
Alchemist fire: at no time is flat damage doubled on a crit
Spell attacks: spell attacks can crit

[ProsecutorGodot]

Poison: this one is kind of a sticky question, since its not just damage on hit, it also requires a saving throw, but raw yes

The understanding that I've seen of RAW is that the effect of the attack is causing a saving throw, the effect of the poison/failing that saving throw is the damage, ergo not doubled by a critical.

[kazaryu]

The understanding that I've seen of RAW is that the effect of the attack is causing a saving throw, the effect of the poison/failing that saving throw is the damage, ergo not doubled by a critical.

Yeah, thats also possible, i just havent looked into it.

If it came up at my table id probably have the target roll a nat 1 on the save, which is effectively an auto fail, but also means they may get that 5 lower than save effect that some poisons have. Just cuz that sounds like fun

[Potato_Priest]

What has always been unclear to me is what happens when a hit carries a saving throw effect for more dice of damage.

ex: poisoned longsword deals 1d8 slashing + a dc 12 con save for an extra 1d4 poison. The creature wielding the longsword scores a critical hit and their target fails the save. Do they take 2d8 slashing+1d4 poison or 2d8 slashing +2d4 poison?

[Mongobear]

So...what kinds of dice are affected?


All of them. If you would roll any number of dice for damage sources, then you double them when you crit. The source doesnt matter, Flaming Swords, Sneak Attack, Divine Smite, Hex, whatever.

For poison, it depends. While there is no concrete answer, I personally believe that a poison that has a DC before dealing damage would not double its damage. It's a conditional secondary effect of the attack, similarly to the splash damage from GFB or the movement trigger of BB.

However, not all poison damage works that way. There are a few monsters that just have bonus poison damage on weapons, with no save. (Iirc, a few of the various Drow Warrior/Elites are like this, and I assume others.) This sort of poison damage would be doubled. It is functionally no different than a Flaming sword, or Imp Divine SMite, other than damage type.

[Phhase]

So, as a followup: Grave Cleric channel Divinity. Is it correct to assume is is always the final multiplier to apply to the damage calculation, and is otherwise not affected by a critical hit? And that it does not stack with any actual damage vulnerabilities the opponent may have?

On poison - Some poisons deal guaranteed damage, and the save only allows the victim to halve the damage. Does that change anything?

Smites: The same as Sneak Attack, I imagine?

On Spells - So by this logic, the following spells can critically strike: Bigby's Hand, Crown of Stars, Flame Blade, Inflict Wounds, Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, and Witch Bolt can all crit. Though I imagine the ongoing Witch Bolt damage wouldn't crit?

[Mongobear]

So, as a followup: Grave Cleric channel Divinity. Is it correct to assume is is always the final multiplier to apply to the damage calculation, and is otherwise not affected by a critical hit? And that it does not stack with any actual damage vulnerabilities the opponent may have?


You would calculate the damage of the attack as normal for a critical hit, then multiply it by 1.5x (i think thats what Vulnerability does?) It would in fact apply to every instance of damage types they take, assuming you have a way to add more than one.



On poison - Some poisons deal guaranteed damage, and the save only allows the victim to halve the damage. Does that change anything?


Again, there is no concrete ruling for this sort of thing. Following my previous response about Save vs Non-Save poison, I'd say that Save-For-Half wouldn't get multiplied into a crit, as it allows a save.



Smites: The same as Sneak Attack, I imagine?


Yes, both of these are multiplied by crits, as they are guarenteed dice added to a hit, not contingent on a saving throw. ((In fact, there are many "crit-fishing" builds out there that try to compound the threat of Smites--Elven Accuracy, Lucky, Champion 3 or Hexblade dips, etc.))



On Spells - So by this logic, the following spells can critically strike: Bigby's Hand, Crown of Stars, Flame Blade, Inflict Wounds, Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, and Witch Bolt can all crit. Though I imagine the ongoing Witch Bolt damage wouldn't crit?


Not familiar with all of them at the moment, but the general rule is "If there's an attack roll, it can crit." However, it gets weird when there are 'lingering' effects from spells, like Melf's/Witchbolt continuing onto a further turn. Usually, these fall into similar categories as GFB/BB's conditional rider triggers, which can't crit, just the original target attack roll.

[sithlordnergal]

So, as a followup: Grave Cleric channel Divinity. Is it correct to assume is is always the final multiplier to apply to the damage calculation, and is otherwise not affected by a critical hit? And that it does not stack with any actual damage vulnerabilities the opponent may have?


Correct, its the final multiplier and will double the damage taken from that crit. However it does not stack with other vulnerabilities, just like resistance doesn't stack. You'll never be x4 weak to something, or x4 resistant.




On poison - Some poisons deal guaranteed damage, and the save only allows the victim to halve the damage. Does that change anything?


The general rule is that if it allows for a saving throw, you don't double the damage. Even if the saving throw allows for half damage, you won't double the damage.




Smites: The same as Sneak Attack, I imagine?


Yes, smite, like sneak attack, gets doubled on a crit, same with Martial Weapon Dice, Bardic Inspiration, or things being added to the hit by spells and magic items. If there's no save for it, and its going off at the same time as the crit, then the dice get doubled.




On Spells - So by this logic, the following spells can critically strike: Bigby's Hand, Crown of Stars, Flame Blade, Inflict Wounds, Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, and Witch Bolt can all crit. Though I imagine the ongoing Witch Bolt damage wouldn't crit?

Correct on all accounts. Those spells all require attack rolls, and all of those spells can crit. And you're also correct about Witch Bolt being able to crit on the first turn, but not on any subsequent rounds.

[kazaryu]

So, as a followup: Grave Cleric channel Divinity. Is it correct to assume is is always the final multiplier to apply to the damage calculation, and is otherwise not affected by a critical hit? And that it does not stack with any actual damage vulnerabilities the opponent may have?

On poison - Some poisons deal guaranteed damage, and the save only allows the victim to halve the damage. Does that change anything?

Smites: The same as Sneak Attack, I imagine?

On Spells - So by this logic, the following spells can critically strike: Bigby's Hand, Crown of Stars, Flame Blade, Inflict Wounds, Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, and Witch Bolt can all crit. Though I imagine the ongoing Witch Bolt damage wouldn't crit?

Grave cleric: it does not stack with other vulnerabilities, generally if a grave clerics uses their channel divinity on a creature, then for the purpose of the next attack just pretend that the grave clerics channel dovinity is the only sourcenof vilnerability, to avoid any confusion.

However the doubline from the channel divinity does stack with the partial doubling from the crit.

Poison: those are the type of poison we already discussed.

Smite: yup

Spells: yup, spell attacks crit

Witch bolt: correct, initial damage can, ongoing damage doesnt

[Chronos]

I once had a magic staff that, if used as a weapon, dealt an additional 1d6 poison damage. So no-save poison damage isn't just for monsters.

[alchahest]

Things that do not double: Half Orc's Savage Attacks (you take an already rolled die and roll it again - though most people just roll an additional at the same time as the others for expediency), and Barbarian's Brutal Critical Feature (You add dice to the dice being added for critical hits)

[J-H]

Hmm, we've been doing it wrong and including the +1, +4, etc. from magic weapons and ability scores on the damage.

We'll probably just keep doing that.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Hmm, we've been doing it wrong and including the +1, +4, etc. from magic weapons and ability scores on the damage.

We'll probably just keep doing that.

I'm sure it doesn't make that much of an impact, frankly I'm a bit confused at why it doesn't just double all damage from that attack. If there are any outliers that would cause tremendous issue I can't think of them immediately.

[MaxWilson]

I once had a magic staff that, if used as a weapon, dealt an additional 1d6 poison damage. So no-save poison damage isn't just for monsters.

Basic poison from the PHB equipment section works the same way. It's just a flat +1d4.

My ruling on other poisons: double the dice per usual on a critical hit, then save for half.

I don't count paladin smites as part of the original attack unless you declare them in advance. If you roll a 20 and *then* decide to smite, that's a followup effect, not part of the original critical hit. I would be flexible about this if a given player felt strongly that they really need this, because it doesn't really *matter* either way, but that's my default interpretation because it makes sense to me and I like my game to make sense.

No one has objected in real life to this crit/smite interpretation, and in fact it was originally suggested by a player because he didn't figure out what smiting *after* a crit was supposed to represent in-game. I expect the Internet to loudly object though to this "Paladin nerf."

[ProsecutorGodot]

No one has objected in real life to this crit/smite interpretation, and in fact it was originally suggested by a player because he didn't figure out what smiting *after* a crit was supposed to represent in-game. I expect the Internet to loudly object though to this "Paladin nerf."
It's more attacking a poor fantasy in my eyes. For a bit when I first rolled up a Paladin I thought it would be best to save my spell slots for a critical hit so I could heap on damage. In practice, I was rarely using those resources between long rests because I was aiming for that mythical critical.

Doesn't bother me, the crit baiting aspect of it hurts the perception of the class as a whole in my eyes. Many people see the wild eyed crit fishing Paladin as a default. Kind of falls into the omniscient uber prepared Wizard trope.

[Mith]

It's more attacking a poor fantasy in my eyes. For a bit when I first rolled up a Paladin I thought it would be best to save my spell slots for a critical hit so I could heap on damage. In practice, I was rarely using those resources between long rests because I was aiming for that mythical critical.

Doesn't bother me, the crit baiting aspect of it hurts the perception of the class as a whole in my eyes. Many people see the wild eyed crit fishing Paladin as a default. Kind of falls into the omniscient uber prepared Wizard trope.

I could see it as smite spells being a class feature (concentrate to hold power then strike for X damage or lesser damage plus rider declared ahead of time). You are then preparing more utility spells as back up.

[J-H]

I'm sure it doesn't make that much of an impact, frankly I'm a bit confused at why it doesn't just double all damage from that attack. If there are any outliers that would cause tremendous issue I can't think of them immediately.

The group I play with uses the houserule that crits are "max possible damage from your attack + damage you roll + your modifiers." So a 3rd level rogue with +3 dex and a 1d6 shortsword would, RAW, do damage on a crit of 6d6+3 (average 24). With the houserule we use, he does damage on a crit of 21 (3d6+3 max) +3d6+3 for an average of 34.5.

It significantly boosts crits. This has occasionally swung against the party. Last session, the evil cleric attacking the party used an upcasted Inflict Wounds at 9d10 damage on the reckless-attacking barbarian and critted for 90+9d10 damage. I think it was about 130 damage. We had to roll it out to see if it was going to insta-kill the character by taking him to beyond negative his max HP in a single attack. I don't remember if that's a houserule or not. Group grew out of a local game store, so we all pretty much use the same set of houserules. That was substantially more than a simple 18d10 would have done.

[JackPhoenix]

Basic poison from the PHB equipment section works the same way. It's just a flat +1d4.

After the target fails DC 10 Con save.

[MaxWilson]

After the target fails DC 10 Con save.

Oops. Serves me right for not checking. You are correct sir. I was wrong.

[Kurt Kurageous]

The group I play with uses the houserule that crits are "max possible damage from your attack + damage you roll + your modifiers." So a 3rd level rogue with +3 dex and a 1d6 shortsword would, RAW, do damage on a crit of 6d6+3 (average 24). With the houserule we use, he does damage on a crit of 21 (3d6+3 max) +3d6+3 for an average of 34.5.

This is what I use at my table. Crit deals damage dice as rolled, plus the max value of the dice rolled plus any damage modifiers.

RAI?
1) I don't want sad trombone solos after a crit. It's an exciting moment for everyone. Why take it away?
2) I want my combats to be quick and violent. Rolling dice brings the game to a grinding halt EVERY SINGLE TIME. Why would I want to roll MORE dice and add them up? I aslo ask my players to roll their d20 with their damage dice to speed up the process.

Game effect? None I can see. I have players looking seriously at crit farming builds, half orc fighter champion GWM using a greataxe does 24 (2 d12) + d12 + STRMOD 10% of the time they roll.

[MoiMagnus]

I'm sure it doesn't make that much of an impact, frankly I'm a bit confused at why it doesn't just double all damage from that attack. If there are any outliers that would cause tremendous issue I can't think of them immediately.

The +10 damages from some feats (great weapon master, ...) is my immediate though. They're strong enough like that, and you're already happy to land a critical hit when you took the -5 penalty to hit, so no need to double the +10 damages in case of critical hit.

[ProsecutorGodot]

The +10 damages from some feats (great weapon master, ...) is my immediate though. They're strong enough like that, and you're already happy to land a critical hit when you took the -5 penalty to hit, so no need to double the +10 damages in case of critical hit.

Nobody at my tables play with it (by choice, they're not banned) so I'd forgotten about them. That would be the outlier, all they do is cause problems.

[KorvinStarmast]

Nobody at my tables play with it (by choice, they're not banned) so I'd forgotten about them. That would be the outlier, all they do is cause problems.
no problem at all.
The damage is doubled. It makes the Barbarian with the Great Axe the awesome killing machine that he's supposed to be when he now and again rolls critical and is using GWM.

[ProsecutorGodot]

no problem at all.
The damage is doubled. It makes the Barbarian with the Great Axe the awesome killing machine that he's supposed to be when he now and again rolls critical and is using GWM.

I'll rephrase then: GWM is generally considered not as problematic as Sharpshooter, which I tend to agree with. The Elven Accuracy Sharpshooter crit fishers are something I would consider more out of line than I'd prefer.

GWM more often than not has opportunity costs for optimizing it, you either forego an attack to knock someone prone for your best odds at not missing due to the -5 or you're a Barbarian who attacks recklessly, often taking a hit in return if you don't end up killing all surrounding targets. Sharpshooter, on the other hand, is pretty well mitigated by the Archery fighting style, something you'd have been taking anyway as a ranged attacker so you never really give anything up in optimizing your chances.

All that said, now that I've thought more on it I really don't see it causing more issues than it already does. Criticals happen rarely enough (even for fishing builds) that it's not likely to be as problematic as I thought at a glance.

[KorvinStarmast]

GWM more often than not has opportunity costs for optimizing it, you either forego an attack to knock someone prone for your best odds at not missing due to the -5 or you're a Barbarian who attacks recklessly, often taking a hit in return if you don't end up killing all surrounding targets. Sharpshooter, on the other hand, is pretty well mitigated by the Archery fighting style, something you'd have been taking anyway as a ranged attacker so you never really give anything up in optimizing your chances.
nice post, have only ever played one Ranger with Sharpshooter: and that campaign never got to tier 2. (vHuman)

[Frozenstep]

I'm sure it doesn't make that much of an impact, frankly I'm a bit confused at why it doesn't just double all damage from that attack. If there are any outliers that would cause tremendous issue I can't think of them immediately.

It'd be a nice buff to monk, as early on their flurry damage mostly comes from the dex mod and not the martial arts dice.


All that said, now that I've thought more on it I really don't see it causing more issues than it already does. Criticals happen rarely enough (even for fishing builds) that it's not likely to be as problematic as I thought at a glance.

It's probably more of a "this option is already at the top of damage options in this game, a small buff to it is the last thing we need to make it feel less mandatory for builds".