(3.5) Understanding Psion Disciplines

[booliusdoolius]

Hey all, I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the Psion Disciplines. I've heard from some that they have an associated ability score that is key for their abilities to work depending on which discipline they chose and I've heard from others that it doesn't matter. Can someone explain the most important ability scores for Psion and describe the Disciplines, please? Thanks.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hey all, I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the Psion Disciplines. I've heard from some that they have an associated ability score that is key for their abilities to work depending on which discipline they chose and I've heard from others that it doesn't matter. Can someone explain the most important ability scores for Psion and describe the Disciplines, please? Thanks.You're describing the sucktastic disciplines in the even more sucktastic 3.0 Psionics Handbook. The 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook is an entirely new system (albeit somewhat similar) that doesn't have that. Instead, each discipline of psion has additional skills unique to that discipline, as well as adjunctive power lists alongside the general psion/wilder power list. They also have unique ACFs, but those are entirely (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a) separate (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a).

All 3.5 psions use Int, plus whatever ability scores are useful for their specific skill lists.

You can find more information on the SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm).

[booliusdoolius]

You're describing the sucktastic disciplines in the even more sucktastic 3.0 Psionics Handbook. The 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook is an entirely new system (albeit somewhat similar) that doesn't have that. Instead, each discipline of psion has additional skills unique to that discipline, as well as adjunctive power lists alongside the general psion/wilder power list. They also have unique ACFs, but those are entirely separate.

All 3.5 psions use Int, plus whatever ability scores are useful for their specific skill lists.

You can find more information on the SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm).

Oh so each discipline doesnt have an associated ability score. That makes a lot more sense. Thanks.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Oh so each discipline doesnt have an associated ability score. That makes a lot more sense. Thanks.Yeah. 3.0 psionics sucked in a lot of ways, this being a big one (albeit less so than the horrid "psionic combat" crap it used; psionic combat is described below).

I have used this model before, but to really appreciate how this "class feature" worked you should see how it would apply if ported to mainstream D&D where they haven't been conditioned to accept inferior mechanics without question. Lets take the big sacred moo, a Cleric's undead turning ability:

DM: "Before we get started, Cleric, I just want you to know that I am instituting some changes in your turn undead class feature that will make your class more different and give it a unique divine mechanic."

Player: "OK. How does it work now?"

DM: "Well, for starters, when you attempt to turn undead you will now have to burn a spell."

Player: "A spell???? What level?"

DM: "Different levels. It depends on what turning mode you want to use. Sanctified Gesture takes a level 1, Divine Dance of Power takes a level 2, High Holly Homina Homina takes a level 3, and...."

Player: "Wait, I assume I will get a bonus on the roll based on the level of spell slot I sacrifice?"

DM: "Sometimes you will. Other times you will get a penalty based on the turning defense mode the opponent selects. Turning and turning defense modes will interact on a table. The table determines the actual DC of the roll, not the level of the spell slot burned. Choosing a given defense mode may actually mean you pay a spell to get a penalty on the save, but it will still be better than being defenseless."

Player: "The undead will get defense modes?"

DM: "Sure, so will you. Each round you will select a turning attack mode and a defense mode. In fact, you will need to select a defense mode against each undead opponent each and every round and each will cost you spell slots."

Player: "Wwwwwwhat????!!!!!! What if I am facing undead who do not cast spells, I assume they won't get to mount a defense?"

DM: "It doesn't matter if you face undead without casting ability because their turning and turning defense modes are free."

Player: "Wait a minute! This is stupid! One of my 3rd level spell slots could be spent on Searing Light which fries undead; why would I ever spend it on an attack mode that might help me on a turning attempt? And why would I ever take a turning defense mode, much less a separate one vs. each undead opponent? I would simply choose to ignore undead or cast spells against them or go at them with weapons. I would have to have brain damage to choose to turn with these rules!"

DM: "If you fail to mount a defense then each unblocked undead gets a special +8 bonus to hit you for having this wonderful class feature and choosing not to use it. They also get to drain your stats if they hit. This will apply also to anyone who adds a level of Cleric; multiclassing will be very flavorful."

Player: "But I am a spellcaster, I need to be able to cast spells. How can I do my job if my spell slots get sucked away every time we run into undead?"

DM: "Well, how can you do your job if you are dead or reduced to a mindless state? You need to use your spells this way or you may not live long enough to cast them anyway."

Player: Head down, silently weeping into his hands.

DM: "I should mention too that you will be able to make turn undead attempts vs. nonundead; if you succeed they will be stunned for a few rounds. Of course, everyone who does not have this feature will get a huge bonus on the save DC. The best part: If you blow a 5th level spell to use High Holy Hokey Pokey then everyone in a large area could be stunned for a long while and they don't get a bonus vs. this one mode -- that makes the entire system usable and balanced."

Player: "They should all be stunned if they ever see me willingly use these rules. This is preposterous! I need my spells to heal and buff and perform all the functions of a Cleric. How am I going to be of any use to the party if I hemorrhage spell slots every time we run into undead?"

DM: "That is the beauty of it: You get to choose whether to use your spell slots as they were intended or save your own hide by using them to turn. Come on and at least give it a chance. It will be a mechanic unique to your class so it must be a benefit. You don't want to be just another spellcaster do you? This will add so much flavor and.... Hey! Get him off of me!"

Player: "How ya like that fist flavor?"

Needing Dex for psychoportation, Cha for telepathy, and Con for psychometabolism (and the other three ability scores for the other three disciplines) meant you needed high scores in everything, turning psionic classes into some of the most MAD ones in the whole game.

[Particle_Man]

Or you just became the 3.0 con psion and revelled in the hp. :smallbiggrin:

But yeah 3.5 does it better. One way to think of it is that your 3.5 discipline gives you options. A psion could ignore their discipline by simply never putting ranks in the bonus class skills and never taking powers from the discipline specific list. So just look at the bonus skills and discipline specific lists and see what catches your eye.

Oh wait there is one thing: a kineticist that both gets create astral construct (via the expanded knowledge feat) and creates an astral construct with the energy touch feature from menu B has it get a 1d6 rather than a 1d4 to the bonus elemental damage the construct does. A minor point but it is there.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Yeah. 3.0 psionics sucked in a lot of ways, this being a big one (albeit less so than the horrid "psionic combat" crap it used; psionic combat is described below).

I have used this model before, but to really appreciate how this "class feature" worked you should see how it would apply if ported to mainstream D&D where they haven't been conditioned to accept inferior mechanics without question. Lets take the big sacred moo, a Cleric's undead turning ability:

DM: "Before we get started, Cleric, I just want you to know that I am instituting some changes in your turn undead class feature that will make your class more different and give it a unique divine mechanic."

Player: "OK. How does it work now?"

DM: "Well, for starters, when you attempt to turn undead you will now have to burn a spell."

Player: "A spell???? What level?"

DM: "Different levels. It depends on what turning mode you want to use. Sanctified Gesture takes a level 1, Divine Dance of Power takes a level 2, High Holly Homina Homina takes a level 3, and...."

Player: "Wait, I assume I will get a bonus on the roll based on the level of spell slot I sacrifice?"

DM: "Sometimes you will. Other times you will get a penalty based on the turning defense mode the opponent selects. Turning and turning defense modes will interact on a table. The table determines the actual DC of the roll, not the level of the spell slot burned. Choosing a given defense mode may actually mean you pay a spell to get a penalty on the save, but it will still be better than being defenseless."

Player: "The undead will get defense modes?"

DM: "Sure, so will you. Each round you will select a turning attack mode and a defense mode. In fact, you will need to select a defense mode against each undead opponent each and every round and each will cost you spell slots."

Player: "Wwwwwwhat????!!!!!! What if I am facing undead who do not cast spells, I assume they won't get to mount a defense?"

DM: "It doesn't matter if you face undead without casting ability because their turning and turning defense modes are free."

Player: "Wait a minute! This is stupid! One of my 3rd level spell slots could be spent on Searing Light which fries undead; why would I ever spend it on an attack mode that might help me on a turning attempt? And why would I ever take a turning defense mode, much less a separate one vs. each undead opponent? I would simply choose to ignore undead or cast spells against them or go at them with weapons. I would have to have brain damage to choose to turn with these rules!"

DM: "If you fail to mount a defense then each unblocked undead gets a special +8 bonus to hit you for having this wonderful class feature and choosing not to use it. They also get to drain your stats if they hit. This will apply also to anyone who adds a level of Cleric; multiclassing will be very flavorful."

Player: "But I am a spellcaster, I need to be able to cast spells. How can I do my job if my spell slots get sucked away every time we run into undead?"

DM: "Well, how can you do your job if you are dead or reduced to a mindless state? You need to use your spells this way or you may not live long enough to cast them anyway."

Player: Head down, silently weeping into his hands.

DM: "I should mention too that you will be able to make turn undead attempts vs. nonundead; if you succeed they will be stunned for a few rounds. Of course, everyone who does not have this feature will get a huge bonus on the save DC. The best part: If you blow a 5th level spell to use High Holy Hokey Pokey then everyone in a large area could be stunned for a long while and they don't get a bonus vs. this one mode -- that makes the entire system usable and balanced."

Player: "They should all be stunned if they ever see me willingly use these rules. This is preposterous! I need my spells to heal and buff and perform all the functions of a Cleric. How am I going to be of any use to the party if I hemorrhage spell slots every time we run into undead?"

DM: "That is the beauty of it: You get to choose whether to use your spell slots as they were intended or save your own hide by using them to turn. Come on and at least give it a chance. It will be a mechanic unique to your class so it must be a benefit. You don't want to be just another spellcaster do you? This will add so much flavor and.... Hey! Get him off of me!"

Player: "How ya like that fist flavor?"

Needing Dex for psychoportation, Cha for telepathy, and Con for psychometabolism (and the other three ability scores for the other three disciplines) meant you needed high scores in everything, turning psionic classes into some of the most MAD ones in the whole game.

To be fair to 3.0 psionic combat, people love the flavor of psychic duels and the rock-paper-scissors idea was a good base for it, the main things that broke it were (A) the monsters being able to use attack and defense modes for free and picking up attack and defense modes at the same rate as manifesting classes, if not faster, and (B) being flat-footed rendering you highly vulnerable to attack from psionic monsters. Back in 1e where the concept originated, monsters had to pay PSPs to use attack and defense modes just like PCs did but generally had fewer modes and lower psionic ability than psionic PCs did (e.g. a succubus had 1 attack mode, 2 defense modes, and psionic ability 200, when a character with a reasonable chance to have psionics at all--that is, had Int, Wis, and Cha all above 16--averages 2 attack modes and 3 defense modes and has a minimum of 104 psionic ability on a d% roll of 1), and attacking an unaware enemy had no special benefit, only being out of PSP mattered. If monsters had had PP pools instead of free modes and being flat-footed didn't give the attacker +8 to their rolls, I think people wouldn't have had as much of a problem with it.

As for the MADness, that only applied if you tried to diversify across all six disciplines; if you focused more, it was barely noticeable. Picking powers mostly from one discipline and splashing one or two others is basically the same stat-wise as being a SAD caster who still cares about Dex and Con or a melee gish who wants Str, Con, and a casting stat, and as Particle_Man noted a nomad (Dex) or kineticist (Con) gets to be SAD on a god stat and win the stat-boosting game. And heck, the one thing that rarely comes up is that DCs were 1d20+modifiers instead of 10+modifiers, so the difference between a +4 Int mod and a secondary stat was fairly small in practice--which doesn't mean that random DCs aren't a terrible idea that rightfully died in a fire in the 3.5 update, but it did mean that MAD was less noticeable in practice.

[RatElemental]

When it comes to psychic duels I rather like how pathfinder did it, for the most part. It's kind of cool how it has to be instigated with a spell and it all takes place in an abstracted mindspace with players given free reign to describe the mental constructs they use to fight with. It can have a neat application with the party psion locking down a big threat to handle one on one while the rest of the party runs interference against minions too. Or you can just use it as a fancy version of hold person with your party hacking that lone monster to bits while you force it to play mental chess with you.

On the other hand, I can see why effectively splitting the party like that and a spell that might as well be called "steal spotlight" could grate on certain tables.

[Manyasone]

When it comes to psychic duels I rather like how pathfinder did it, for the most part. It's kind of cool how it has to be instigated with a spell and it all takes place in an abstracted mindspace with players given free reign to describe the mental constructs they use to fight with. It can have a neat application with the party psion locking down a big threat to handle one on one while the rest of the party runs interference against minions too. Or you can just use it as a fancy version of hold person with your party hacking that lone monster to bits while you force it to play mental chess with you.

On the other hand, I can see why effectively splitting the party like that and a spell that might as well be called "steal spotlight" could grate on certain tables.

That is not Psionics, Psionics in Pathfinder is handled by Dreamscarred Press. You are referring to 'Occult adventures'