Thief Expertise - Stealth, Sleight of Hands, or Thieves Tools

[Escribblings]

As above.

I'm creating a thief for a PvP campaign in the dungeon of the mad Mage...

Which 2 would you take?

I'm leaning towards stealth and sleight of hands...

[Bobthewizard]

I almost always take stealth and perception. I find rogues scout more than they steal or open locks.

[JellyPooga]

Sleight of Hand is super-niche. Very good in city-based games or if you're teaming up such that combat pick-pocketing is viable. For a PvP dungeon bash, though? Not so good.

Stealth is always good, but Thieves Tools is both situational and rarely a necessity; after all, Barbarians exist to both bash down locked doors and Tank trap damage. As Bobthewizard says, Perception is totally solid and you'll get a lot of use out of it.

Another very solid option is Athletics, even if you dumped Strength.

[Escribblings]

Hmmm, food for thought.

I was looking at fast hands and the combat options available.

Going to have random teammates so can't guarantee other group skills.

[JellyPooga]

I love Fast Hands; it's one of my favourite abilities. That said, the opportunities to use Sleight of Hand or Thieves Tools in combat are few and far between IME. Expertise in Athletics, on the other hand, comes into play far for frequently. There's the obvious application of Grappling or avoiding such, but there's also the option of manipulating terrain (as a bonus action, thanks to Fast Hands); flipping tables, toppling chairs and so forth, to create difficult terrain and/or cover, many of which I've found GMs want some kind of check and, for want of a better one, Athletics tends to come up.

[RogueJK]

I typically do Stealth and Perception at 1st, and later Athletics/Acrobatics and Investigation.

[chando]

Haven't played or read the dungeon of the mad mage... but the name imply some mad traps and the PVP campaing might suggest that traps that could be resolved with the barbarian taking a huge amount of damage or clever play with multiple players might need a little bit more thieves tools... but if you can get some thieves gloves or wathever their are called

[Jophiel]

I always take Stealth on my rogues & bards and then never get to use it. Everyone in the group is adverse to breaking the party up (both due to increased risk and sitting around waiting on one person to do their thing) so it's a rarity that I ever get to wander around alone and silently instead of being next to a bunch of Dex dump-statted fighters, paladins and clerics. I'm thinking that next time I just rely on my Dex score if it comes up and put the proficiency into something that will actually happen.

[Escribblings]

That's a good point Jophiel.

I've got the option of a magic item, and I'm looking at a cloak of protection (+1ac and saves), a sentinel shield (+2ac and adv on perception), or a cloak of elvenkind (adv on stealth and disadv on perception against me).

Although I'll consider other common or uncommon items.

They could swing the expertise!

[Keravath]

I usually take Stealth and Perception at 1st level since noticing the traps is probably more important than disabling them at least to start with.

The next ones are typically Investigation to enhance the character's ability to figure out traps and other hidden information followed by one of the following:

- thieves tools - only rogues can have expertise in thieves tools. Bards or other rogue pretenders need not apply :). If I want a character that can be very successful at disabling traps this is my top choice.
- arcana - needed for finding and disabling magical traps - can be very important though if you have detect magic as a ritual or other ability (warlock Eldritch Sight) this can help a lot
- athletics - if you have dreams of grappling - otherwise proficiency is usually enough - expertise for some specialized builds mostly

I've never bothered with Sleight of Hand because I find it too niche. It is probably most useful in picking pockets or if you want to entertain kids with a magic show. Most of the time, I would just go with proficiency because I find the other skills far more important and useful.

So: Stealth, perception, investigation ... thieves tools or arcana ... would be my usual choices.

[Keravath]

I always take Stealth on my rogues & bards and then never get to use it. Everyone in the group is adverse to breaking the party up (both due to increased risk and sitting around waiting on one person to do their thing) so it's a rarity that I ever get to wander around alone and silently instead of being next to a bunch of Dex dump-statted fighters, paladins and clerics. I'm thinking that next time I just rely on my Dex score if it comes up and put the proficiency into something that will actually happen.

In the games I have played, ranged rogues use stealth in combat ALL the time if there is something available to hide behind. Even a wall, the door to a room, tree, anything that gives you total cover from an opponent allows you to bonus action hide and then take your next attack with advantage and enable sneak attack. Stealth is crucial for a rogue in this case.

As for groups, sometimes group stealth checks are important and being able to reliably pass can help the group pass.

[Jophiel]

In the games I have played, ranged rogues use stealth in combat ALL the time if there is something available to hide behind.
That's true; I never play ranged rogues so didn't consider it.

As for groups, sometimes group stealth checks are important and being able to reliably pass can help the group pass.
That, on the other hand, falls under the edge use cases where I'd rather just rely on my Dex bonus the once or twice it comes up and save my proficiency dot for a skill I'll actually be using regularly.

[Misterwhisper]

I usually take Stealth and Perception at 1st level since noticing the traps is probably more important than disabling them at least to start with.

The next ones are typically Investigation to enhance the character's ability to figure out traps and other hidden information followed by one of the following:

- thieves tools - only rogues can have expertise in thieves tools. Bards or other rogue pretenders need not apply :). If I want a character that can be very successful at disabling traps this is my top choice.
- arcana - needed for finding and disabling magical traps - can be very important though if you have detect magic as a ritual or other ability (warlock Eldritch Sight) this can help a lot
- athletics - if you have dreams of grappling - otherwise proficiency is usually enough - expertise for some specialized builds mostly

I've never bothered with Sleight of Hand because I find it too niche. It is probably most useful in picking pockets or if you want to entertain kids with a magic show. Most of the time, I would just go with proficiency because I find the other skills far more important and useful.

So: Stealth, perception, investigation ... thieves tools or arcana ... would be my usual choices.

Every artificer can get thieves tool expertise dirt easy.

Unless their are no arcane casters you have no reason to take expertise in arcana.

Even with expertise there is no reason to take expertise in athletics, unless you are going for a str build you should avoid those things not try to be better at them.

Perception is always the first pick for expertise. No exceptions.

After that I would take investigation.

Stealth you will be good enough without expertise, most monsters don’t have amazing perception and if your dm actually uses perception and search rules correctly you will be fine.

Magic item:

Cloak of elven kind is amazing, but falls into the trap of if the dm wants you to be seen they will just lie about die rolls and see you anyway.

If you don’t have Darkvision, goggles of night are top priority

[Coffee_Dragon]

For a cat burglar/ninja-type rogue I took Stealth, Perception, Acrobatics and Athletics. Lots of ninja-y things like climbing and jumping are Athletics, and unless you have Str 14 you'll want the extra push (maybe even then).

If you want to play a street-level rogue more than a cat burglar, take Sleight of Hand instead of Acrobatics or Athletics.

If you know your DM will always let you use one of Acrobatics/Athletics in place of the other, you only need one.

If you know your DM is heavily into traps, consider thieves' tools.

[Escribblings]

I love Fast Hands; it's one of my favourite abilities. That said, the opportunities to use Sleight of Hand or Thieves Tools in combat are few and far between IME. Expertise in Athletics, on the other hand, comes into play far for frequently. There's the obvious application of Grappling or avoiding such, but there's also the option of manipulating terrain (as a bonus action, thanks to Fast Hands); flipping tables, toppling chairs and so forth, to create difficult terrain and/or cover, many of which I've found GMs want some kind of check and, for want of a better one, Athletics tends to come up.

But isn't the check the Sleight of Hands check?


You can use the extra action granted by your Cunning Action to make Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) checks, use your thieves’ tools to disarm a trap or open a lock, or use an object in the environment.

[JellyPooga]

You can use Fast Hands to make Sleight of Hand checks, yes, but I'm talking about Use an Object. Most of the time, manipulating terrain is inefficient because it would typically take your action for a turn, but as a Thief, you can manipulate terrain anytime you don't have a better use for your Bonus Action and still have your main Action to use. For larger terrain pieces, like tables, benches, logs and such, it's not unreasonable to ask for a check and that check is usually Strength, often allowing Athletics.

[Talionis]

Sleight of Hand can be useful in combat. Take the component pouch of a caster. Put someone in hand cuffs. They maybe niche but it can be very effective.