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View Full Version : Rules quirk: Too bad that orc was surprised!



Chronos
2007-10-21, 08:22 PM
Due to an interesting quirk in how the surprise rules operate, it can sometimes actually hurt a character if one of the opponents is surprised. An extreme example:

Consider a rogue, with the Improved Initiative and Whirlwind Attack feats (plus prereqs, of course). The rogue is currently hiding, clinging to a light fixture, above a table around which eight orcs are gathered, playing poker. Suddenly, the rogue drops from the fixture onto the table surrounded by orcs, and the combat begins. The orcs received a tip that they were being infiltrated, and were wary, so they all manage not to be surprised. Since nobody was surprised, there's no surprise round. Everyone rolls initiative, and the rogue, with Improved Initiative and a high dex, wins easily. The rogue then Whirlwind Attacks all eight orcs, and thanks to sneak attack damage (the orcs were all flatfooted), kills them all before they can act. All around, a good situation for the rogue.

Now, however, consider another situation, exactly like the previous, except that one orc was too caught up with counting his winnings to notice the rogue jumping onto the table. So that one orc is surprised, but nobody else is. Since one but not all of the combatants was surprised, there's a surprise round. The rogue and the other seven orcs all roll initiative, and the rogue wins easily. But now, since it's a surprise round, the rogue can't make a full attack, and kills only one orc. The six surviving, aware orcs all attack once in the surprise round. The next round, all seven orcs are aware, and six of them are no longer flat-footed. The rogue has taken a fair amount of damage, and is surrounded by things she can no longer sneak attack. All in all, a bad situation for the rogue.

So the fact that one of the enemy was surprised, which should have helped the rogue, actually ended up hurting considerably. Huh.

Collin152
2007-10-21, 08:26 PM
Wow, that is interesting. You win a gold star.

Goumindong
2007-10-21, 08:29 PM
Only if all the orcs can draw their weapons as a free action. Which they cant, only as a move action or part of a move.[or they all have quickdraw]

HOWEVER, the first example probably ought to have been adjudicated as a suprise round that everyone can act in, and not as a full round.

Nermy
2007-10-21, 08:31 PM
Well I may be missing something, but, in the first scenario, how did the Rogue manage to make all of the orcs flatfooted if there was no surprise round?

Collin152
2007-10-21, 08:32 PM
Only if all the orcs can draw their weapons as a free action. Which they cant, only as a move action or part of a move.[or they all have quickdraw]

HOWEVER, the first example probably ought to have been adjudicated as a suprise round that everyone can act in, and not as a full round.

Seeing as they knew they would be jumped at some point, they most likely already had their weapons out. (That, and they are playign poker, and they are orcs. put two and two together!)


Well I may be missing something, but, in the first scenario, how did the Rogue manage to make all of the orcs flatfooted if there was no surprise round?

When a combat starts, everbody is flat footed until their first action.

martyboy74
2007-10-21, 08:33 PM
Well I may be missing something, but, in the first scenario, how did the Rogue manage to make all of the orcs flatfooted if there was no surprise round?

You are automatically flat-footed if your turn hasn't come around in the first round yet.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

Goumindong
2007-10-21, 08:33 PM
Seeing as they knew they would be jumped at some point, they most likely already had their weapons out. (That, and they are playign poker, and they are orcs. put two and two together!)

Out where?

Holding their weapons in their hands while they were playing poker?

fat chance.

Picking something up is also a move action.

Goumindong
2007-10-21, 08:35 PM
When a combat starts, everybody is flat footed until their first action.

Kindof. Technically, a suprise round has already occured and they are all ready ;)

Collin152
2007-10-21, 08:35 PM
Out where?

Holding their weapons in their hands while they were playing poker?

fat chance.

Picking something up is also a move action.

One hand in their lap holding a weapon (Cause a fights sure to start one way or another) and the other holds the cards. When moving chips, use the handle edge of the weapon or put down your cards. They expect trouble, consarnit.

Goumindong
2007-10-21, 08:38 PM
One hand in their lap holding a weapon (Cause a fights sure to start one way or another) and the other holds the cards. When moving chips, use the handle edge of the weapon or put down your cards. They expect trouble, consarnit.

Then they get to participate in the suprise round.

edit: but technically they are not aware of the rogue, and if they are, the rogues suprise round action is likley to be taken up by him dropping in.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-21, 08:45 PM
This post brings up an interesting point about the questionable nature of surprise rounds.

Chronos
2007-10-21, 08:55 PM
Then they get to participate in the suprise round.Yup, and they did (most of them, at least), in the example where there was a surprise round. But in the first example, since nobody was surprised, we just go straight into ordinary rounds.

And even if these orcs, for some reason, were playing poker without their weapons drawn, they could probably put some significant hurt on the rogue with just their fists.

Dullyanna
2007-10-21, 09:05 PM
This is how I see it:Scenario A: Our group of intrepid (Ha!) adventurers are walking into a tomb/temple/ancient ruin thingy, and notice multiple statues... With sharp, pointy, bloodstained teeth and claws... And a large pile of bones. Since the lot of them are well experienced and intelligent, they figure that these are gargoyles. So they go forward, prepared for the bastards to come to life and attack. Thus, when the gargoyles do so, they don't get a surprise round.

Scenario B: Same situation, but there are actually NINJAS hiding behind the statues... even though they're invisible. The party expects a sudden attack, but from hungry (How? Hell if I know.) statues, not shadow-clad stereotypes. Thus, when the ambush is made, the ninjas get a surprise round ftw. Unless they'res sitting on their arses, playing invisible ninja poker...

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-10-21, 09:11 PM
The orcs received a tip that they were being infiltrated, and were wary, so they all manage not to be surprised. Since nobody was surprised, there's no surprise round.
:smallconfused: Huh? Surprise is determined by knowing your opponent is there at that exact moment. Not being generally aware there will be an opponent jumping out at some nebulous time in the near future. Otherwise there'd be no such thing as a surprise round in a dungeon.

Unless by being wary you meant they were taking time to look up from their games now and then and make active Spot checks, which let them notice the rogue just before he dropped.

But as to the greater point: I have to agree with Goumindong.
The surprise round is meant to be whatever you do that draws attention to yourself. Once both parties are aware of each other, regular Initiative starts.

So, as it plays out in your scenarios above:

No surprise round: The Orcs notice the Rogue while he is dangling from the ceiling. Initiative starts. The rogue has to drop from the ceiling and land on his feet—which requires a Tumble or Jump check and should be a move action. This prevents him from using Whirlwind Attack on the first round. Though the rogue could turn the maneuver into a charge if the room has a particularly high ceiling.

One Orc Surprised: Several Orcs notice the Rogue. They get their surprise round. Rogue uses his one action to drop down from the ceiling (possibly in a partial charge). All but one of the orcs react. Then a regular round starts.

And if the Rogue went unnoticed by all the Orcs, they would all get to take their initiative as soon as the Rogue landed on the table. That means the Rogue's surprise round was dropping from the ceiling.

Goumindong
2007-10-21, 09:13 PM
Yup, and they did (most of them, at least), in the example where there was a surprise round. But in the first example, since nobody was surprised, we just go straight into ordinary rounds.

And even if these orcs, for some reason, were playing poker without their weapons drawn, they could probably put some significant hurt on the rogue with just their fists.

but not everyone were not surprised[though technically the orcs were], i for certian was suprised.

The lack of surprise rounds is is intended to reduce the necessary actions taken in combat in which two people start a distance away from them and are both ready for combat.

In this situation combat has technicially already started and each and every one has held their action during their turns instead of taking an action. They have all had turns, they are all in combat, they just havent done anything.

It doesnt matter how the combat starts if everyone knew the rogue was there and the rogue knew the orcs were there, dropping off the chandaleer is an action that is taken at the start of actions in combat, but not the start of combat.

E.G.

What is the difference between two people standing 30 feet apart and taking 5 rounds of combat both holding their action and two people standing 30 feet apart for 5 rounds worth of time then initiating combat?

Nothing, but you are fudging the rules to gain an advantage in the second instance. No such fudging is possible with judicial application. Combat begins as soon as both sides are aware of each other and their intent, no exceptions.

Aware does not mean in the general sense, it means in the specific sense. A Rogue that is not seen or heard who drops in on orcs, even if the orcs were expecting to be ambushed, the rogue still gets his surprise round.

If not, if the rogue has been seen then combat has already begun, the orcs are not flat footed, and the rogue takes an action to drop down onto the table.

Which means it takes a move action to drop down on the table on its iniative, gets a single standard action and the orcs get full attacks[albiet at penalties for sitting down most likly].


Combat begins when both sides are aware of each other, not when either side takes action. If the orcs are not surprised then you are in the middle of combat already and they are not flat footed. They just have not been taking actions on their turn, they have been holding actions. If the orcs are surprised then they are flat footed for the rogues surpries round and providing the rogue wins iniative, his full attack action in the next.

ed: The other situation is when everyone is surprised. For instance if everyone were unaware and the rogue fell from the celing.

In that instance the lack of a surprise round reduces the actions necessary in combat where everyone has no advantage. Though i tend to typically give everyone a surprise round in that instance since it makes most sense to me, this is not how things are typically done. I tend to penalize the high initiative for being surprised a bit more than average and not penalize those of low init.

Collin152
2007-10-21, 10:23 PM
Letting go of something is a free action, inn'it? Isn't that what dropping from the ceiling is?
How does that use up your suprise round?

Goumindong
2007-10-21, 10:33 PM
Letting go of something is a free action, inn'it? Isn't that what dropping from the ceiling is?
How does that use up your suprise round?

It would be treated as a jump. It is an action that results in the dilberate movement of the character which takes forsight and requires action at the end of the action with no ability to act inbetween.

letting go of something may be a free action, but dileberatly falling[or falling and landing in general is not]

This is why when you fall and land it takes up your actions on your initiatve.

skywalker
2007-10-21, 11:05 PM
And if the Rogue went unnoticed by all the Orcs, they would all get to take their initiative as soon as the Rogue landed on the table. That means the Rogue's surprise round was dropping from the ceiling.

Not if the rogue wins initiative.

Because the surprise round only has one participant(the rogue). This would, by far, be the best scenario for the rogue. In the unlikely event that all but one orc was not surprised, that would also suck.

Quellian-dyrae
2007-10-21, 11:15 PM
It would be treated as a jump. It is an action that results in the dilberate movement of the character which takes forsight and requires action at the end of the action with no ability to act inbetween.

letting go of something may be a free action, but dileberatly falling[or falling and landing in general is not]

This is why when you fall and land it takes up your actions on your initiatve.

Gotta differ here. Letting go of something, as noted, is free; no action taken. Being moved against your will, as by a bull rush, Colossus Strike maneuver, Explosive Spell feat, or various other methods, takes no action and, to further indicate that it is not the result of intentional action on the character's part, doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. Falling seems equivalent; the character is <i>being moved</i>, not moving, even if it chooses to place itself in a situation where it will be moved (say by intentionally failing a Reflex save against an Explosive Spell). The landing sounds like it's best described by Tumble, which has a similar application of reducing the damage taken by a fall. Tumbling is considered part of movement, but does not take an action in and of itself. Just as a martial adept using Sudden Leap can tumble as part of the swift action jump without counting it as a separate action, so too can a character Tumble as part of a free action fall. No actions used; the rogue can then take a surprise or normal action as appropriate to the type of round. Which makes sense; consider the following circumstances:

Orcs Aware: The orcs succeeded their Spot checks while the rogue hung above them. Rogue drops, orcs come to the ready. If the rogue wins init, it lands, and attacks faster than the orcs could ready themselves. If the orcs win, they're ready to strike the moment the rogue lands and do so.

Orcs Surprised: The orcs didn't spot the rogue. Rogue drops down. The orcs blanch at the sudden arrival of an enemy, fumble for their weapons, and so on while the rogue makes a surprise attack. Once the initial surprise has faded, the orcs try to ready themselves while the rogue sights its next target. Init is rolled. If the rogue wins, it moves fluidly into its next attack before the orcs have gathered their wits. If the orcs win, they've coordinated quickly and strike before the rogue can press the advantage.

Eldritch_Ent
2007-10-21, 11:21 PM
Ehh, this is the wierd nature of "round Time" some people adhere to. You have to remember- time only moves in six second chunks once combat has started- between combat, time doesn't have to flow in multiples of 6 seconds. It really depends on when the orcs noticed you that I would have ruled combat started. Had they noticed you *the moment you left the ceiling* I would understand ruling it a move action, but had the orcs noticed you *the moment you hit the table* I would have ruled you had completed your move action before combat began, and could thus act normally as your initiative declared.

As for surprise rounds, Ehh, I usually rule that the surprise round is a full round anyway, just to avoid wierdness like this... (Even though 6 windows to react is a bit of a stretch...)

KillianHawkeye
2007-10-22, 12:20 AM
Due to an interesting quirk in how the surprise rules operate, it can sometimes actually hurt a character if one of the opponents is surprised. An extreme example:

Consider a rogue, with the Improved Initiative and Whirlwind Attack feats (plus prereqs, of course). The rogue is currently hiding, clinging to a light fixture, above a table around which eight orcs are gathered, playing poker. Suddenly, the rogue drops from the fixture onto the table surrounded by orcs, and the combat begins. The orcs received a tip that they were being infiltrated, and were wary, so they all manage not to be surprised. Since nobody was surprised, there's no surprise round. Everyone rolls initiative, and the rogue, with Improved Initiative and a high dex, wins easily. The rogue then Whirlwind Attacks all eight orcs, and thanks to sneak attack damage (the orcs were all flatfooted), kills them all before they can act. All around, a good situation for the rogue.

Now, however, consider another situation, exactly like the previous, except that one orc was too caught up with counting his winnings to notice the rogue jumping onto the table. So that one orc is surprised, but nobody else is. Since one but not all of the combatants was surprised, there's a surprise round. The rogue and the other seven orcs all roll initiative, and the rogue wins easily. But now, since it's a surprise round, the rogue can't make a full attack, and kills only one orc. The six surviving, aware orcs all attack once in the surprise round. The next round, all seven orcs are aware, and six of them are no longer flat-footed. The rogue has taken a fair amount of damage, and is surrounded by things she can no longer sneak attack. All in all, a bad situation for the rogue.

So the fact that one of the enemy was surprised, which should have helped the rogue, actually ended up hurting considerably. Huh.

It's too bad it wouldn't happen that way. Allow me to demonstrate:

A halfling rogue with Improved Initiative and Whirlwind Attack is hanging from the ceiling above 8 orcs sitting around a table playing cards. The orcs received a tip they might be infiltrated, so they were paying more attention to their surroundings than usual, and they all noticed the rogue getting into position. Since the typical orc warrior would who noticed a sneaking enemy getting ready to attack would just get up and attack first, these orcs must all be rogues themselves, with the Quick Draw feat.

These orcs happen to think this halfling trying to sneak up on them by climbing ACROSS THE CEILING is hilarious, so they quietly nudge each other under the table, exchange grins and glances, and continue pretending to play cards while readying actions to attack her as soon as she jumps down. Unfortunately, the halfling doesn't notice this because she is too busy trying to climb a CHANDELIER without making any noise. Thus, when the halfling does jump down, all eight orcs take their readied actions to attack.

On the plus side, the halfling's improved uncanny dodge prevents her from taking 8 sneak attacks, but she is still heavily wounded. She then takes the rest of her action to attack one of the orcs, who is not at all flat-footed and easily survives the attack. And because of their readied actions, the orcs now act just before the halfling for the rest of combat. The orcs take their attacks on the second round and the halfling dies, and the one wounded orc gets first pick when they divide up her gold and magic items.

In this situation, having the one orc who didn't notice the halfling and failed his Sense Motive check to understand his buddies' secret message, and thus ending up getting surprised, does not particularly help or hinder the halfling. Either way, he joins in on the second round and the halfling still ends up dying horribly because she is too far outnumbered.

leperkhaun
2007-10-22, 01:04 AM
if you consider the suprise round starting when the rogue landed on the table.

1 orc is suprised so you get a suprise round.
That 1 orc and the rogue roll initiative, rogue wins.

Rogue kills orc as his action.

Suprise round over.

Regular Combat starts.

Rest of orcs and rogue roll initiative. Rogue wins.

Orcs are flatfooted because they have not taken any actions that combat, regardless if they are aware of an attacker.

Rogue does the WW and kills all the orcs.


The thing about the flat footed thing is that until you take an action, you are considered flatfooted. Those orcs have not gotten to take an action. Bieng aware of an attacker does not mean you arnt flatfooted.

KillianHawkeye
2007-10-22, 01:22 AM
1 orc is suprised so you get a suprise round.
That 1 orc and the rogue roll initiative, rogue wins.

Um, no. The 1 surprised orc is the only orc that doesn't get to roll intiative.

It's true that you are still flat-footed until you actually TAKE an action, but what kind of morons would sit around a table waiting for a rogue to jump down and kill them when they all know he is up there? I know it was supposed to be an extreme example, but it was so extreme that it became impossible with the application of a little common sense.

leperkhaun
2007-10-22, 01:23 AM
hmm, i misread that. damn suprise rounds suck

Tyrael
2007-10-22, 01:40 AM
Could someone please cite where the "flatfooted on first round" rule comes from? I'd like to see it. It sounds sexy for my feint-happy swashbuckler.

Rockphed
2007-10-22, 02:39 AM
The rule is somewhere in the players handbook. You know, the section that is byzantine, draconian and arcane. I think it is labeled "Combat." The D20 SRD lists it here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#surprise)

KillianHawkeye
2007-10-22, 02:41 AM
Flat-Footed
At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed.

A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity.



This is also in the PHB on pg. 137.

Jothki
2007-10-22, 04:07 AM
Nothing, but you are fudging the rules to gain an advantage in the second instance. No such fudging is possible with judicial application. Combat begins as soon as both sides are aware of each other and their intent, no exceptions.

Skimming through the SRD, I can't find that rule. Can you link it?

In the absence of that rule, the players or DM could theoretically enter round-time at will. That would actually probably be a good way to negate an anticipated ambush, since everyone would have already acted by the time that the real fighting starts.

Zincorium
2007-10-22, 04:57 AM
Skimming through the SRD, I can't find that rule. Can you link it?

In the absence of that rule, the players or DM could theoretically enter round-time at will. That would actually probably be a good way to negate an anticipated ambush, since everyone would have already acted by the time that the real fighting starts.

Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#surprise) is the rules section.

Relevantly:

If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs


And I have to say, that a maneuver possible under normal circumstances (all enemies surprised or none surprised) fails when some opponents are aware and some aren't is...well...retarded. It's not as though the laws of physics change.

Nebnezz
2007-10-22, 06:47 AM
seems this topic got a bit derailed with debate over whether or not falling from the ceiling was a move equivalent action and took up the surprise round, which was kind of a moot point. The point of the thread was the strange drawback of a surprise round. Just change the scenario around a bit and the whole falling from the ceiling thing doesn't even come into play.

Say the rogue UMD'd himself an invisibility scroll, dismissable at will. He's standing on the table when the orcs come in the room to play. They start tossing cards around and one hits his leg, stopping in mid flight and falling to the table. The orcs are perplexed, for a minute that is. Rogue dismisses invisibility for dramatic effect, and starts cutting.

in the first scenario, everyone is looking at the rogue appear before their eyes, everyone aware, no surprise round

second scenario, one orc drops something, gets up and goes to the table behind him for a drink, falls asleep, anything to keep him from seeing the rogue when he appears. Everyone but 'clueless orc' gets partial round, which is probably when they pull their weapons, and the rogue only gets off one shot before normal combat begins with no flat feet

sorry if someone posted something that totally destroys what i just posted, but its 4 a.m. and i have to go to sleep. :smallsmile:

Goumindong
2007-10-22, 06:51 AM
Gotta differ here. Letting go of something, as noted, is free; no action taken.

Diliberatly falling is a move action, whether or not the initiating action is movement.


Skimming through the SRD, I can't find that rule. Can you link it?

In the absence of that rule, the players or DM could theoretically enter round-time at will. That would actually probably be a good way to negate an anticipated ambush, since everyone would have already acted by the time that the real fighting starts.

The rule isnt explicit, its something you have to understand from the way the words are written with surprise.

Technically, everything in the game ought to be able to be broken down into 6 second chunks. We dont do this because the game would take forever, and because there is no need to adjudicate in the abscence of possibility of failure. This is just like why you let players take 10, that is a DC 5 climb check you dont need to roll

Otherwise, as you said, we could just voluntarily be in combat with some amorphous foe and never be surprised, just never be taking action against the enemy.

This is also why "awarenes" rules also exist for sneak attacks.

The point is though, just because somoene hasnt attacked anyone else, doesnt mean combat hasnt begun.

Otherwise you get utterly ridiculous things happening like one person being flat footed at the begining of a pre-arranged duel

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-22, 07:01 AM
Otherwise you get utterly ridiculous things happening like one person being flat footed at the begining of a pre-arranged duel

Don't most traditional duels involve standing back to back and walking X paces? That would seem to be sufficient to fix that mechanical difficulty.

woc33
2007-10-22, 08:14 AM
As far as i remember there is a rule somewhere in the phb about splitting full round actions, i'd rule that the rogue started his whirlwind attack on with his partial action, allow him to finish the attack on the surprise round and allow him to only take a move action on the first round of combat.

Person_Man
2007-10-22, 08:51 AM
Your player is retarded for wasting six feats on Improved Initiative + Combat Expertise + Dodge + Mobility + Spring Attack + Whirlwind Attack. He should have taken Manyshot + Point Blank Shot + Rapid Shot + Greater Manyshot, and purchased a scroll or wand of Greater Invisibility (or had a friend cast it on him). That way he'd have 2 extra feats to play with, it won't matter if he wins Initiative or not, and he doesn't have to risk standing next to all of his enemies in order to attack them. The scenario you describe (1 PC playing without any other party members being completely surrounded by 8 enemies who can each be killed with 1 attack) is ludicrously improbably in most games.

Runolfr
2007-10-22, 08:52 AM
So the fact that one of the enemy was surprised, which should have helped the rogue, actually ended up hurting considerably. Huh.

I'm not sure what the rules say, but I would have run this differently. In the opening round, the one orc that is surprised gets to do nothing, while everyone else involved in the round acts normally. Result for the rogue is the same as if he had just wnn initiative without surprising anyone.

Xanos
2007-10-22, 08:54 AM
Your player is retarded for wasting six feats on Improved Initiative + Combat Expertise + Dodge + Mobility + Spring Attack + Whirlwind Attack. He should have taken Manyshot + Point Blank Shot + Rapid Shot + Greater Manyshot, and purchased a scroll or wand of Greater Invisibility (or had a friend cast it on him). That way he'd have 2 extra feats to play with, it won't matter if he wins Initiative or not, and he doesn't have to risk standing next to all of his enemies in order to attack them. The scenario you describe (1 PC playing without any other party members being completely surrounded by 8 enemies who can each be killed with 1 attack) is ludicrously improbably in most games.
Min/max beats all! Woo.
Maybe he had an RP reason for it? A concept? Not all characters are min/maxed and optimized, y'know.

prufock
2007-10-22, 09:01 AM
Okay, I might be reaching for a loophole here, but do you think this means anything?


At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed.


If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin.

What do you think? Just an artifact of the writing style or do "regular round" and "regular turn" mean something?

AlterForm
2007-10-22, 10:00 AM
if you consider the suprise round starting when the rogue landed on the table.

1 orc is suprised so you get a suprise round.
That 1 orc and the rogue roll initiative, rogue wins.

Rogue kills orc as his action.

Suprise round over.

Regular Combat starts.

Rest of orcs and rogue roll initiative. Rogue wins.

Orcs are flatfooted because they have not taken any actions that combat, regardless if they are aware of an attacker.

Rogue does the WW and kills all the orcs.


The thing about the flat footed thing is that until you take an action, you are considered flatfooted. Those orcs have not gotten to take an action. Bieng aware of an attacker does not mean you arnt flatfooted.

This guy has it right.


1. Each combatant starts out flat-footed. Once a combatant acts, he or she is no longer flat-footed.
2. Determine which characters are aware of their opponents at the start of the battle. If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds of combat begin. The combatants who are aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take one action (either a standard action or a move action) during the surprise round. Combatants who were unaware do not get to act in the surprise round. If no one or everyone starts the battle aware, there is no surprise round.
3. Combatants who have not yet rolled initiative do so. All combatants are now ready to begin their first regular round of combat.
4. Combatants act in initiative order (highest to lowest).
5. When everyone has had a turn, the combatant with the highest initiative acts again, and steps 4 and 5 repeat until combat ends.




1: Who is surprised?
---1b: Everyone who isn't surprised rolls initiative for the surprise round
---1c: Surprise round is resolved (anyone not in initiative is flat-footed)
2: Roll for regular initative
3: Proceed with pwnage

ie: for surprising the orcs, the rogue got a free standard action

Kompera
2007-10-22, 10:10 AM
The point is though, just because somoene hasnt attacked anyone else, doesnt mean combat hasnt begun.

Otherwise you get utterly ridiculous things happening like one person being flat footed at the begining of a pre-arranged duel

Utterly ridiculous or not, this is RAW.


Flat-Footed

At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed.

A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity.

No matter how prearranged the duel is, you're flat footed until you've taken an action in the combat.

Goumindong
2007-10-22, 10:24 AM
This guy has it right.


ie: for surprising the orcs, the rogue got a free standard action

But if 5 orcs are not surprised the rogue kills one and the others get a standard action in the surprise round. Thus 4 attacks[one is dead]. Then, since they have acted, they are not surprised and are not vulnerable to sneak attack from the whirlwind strike.

The problem is that he is adjudicating the "none are surpsrised" situation wrong by making the orcs flat footed when they would normally not be. They would not be flat footed becasue technically combat has already begun[everyone is aware of everyone else], but the only combat actions that have been taken have been delayed actions. As soon as the rogue drops in, the orcs stop delaying, they are not flat footed since they have had turns[though delaying/holding their actions instead of doing something]

He is also adjudicating the situation wrong because he is not using the "awareness" rules correctly. Awareness is specific and not general, you cannot be "ready for anything" and not be flat footed you must be aware of the specific threat. Such he is making the orcs aware when they would not be, then he is denying the orcs actions that they could be taking when the rogue drops in supposing they were aware.

Hell, If you really wanted to be mean, any orc that had spotted the rogue would get an attack of opportunity on the rogue as it drops down. Then the surprised would enter combat at their initiative on the next round.

So, look at this another way.

Rogue hanging, Orcs playing, there are 9 of them, 5 spot the rogue, but do not indicate it[sucessfull bluff]. Why does the rogue get to attack the orcs as if they were flat footed just because the player phyisically says "I attack" before the DM says "the orcs attack"?

The answer is that he doesnt. But he does get the benefit of acting in initiative first[since everyone else is holding their actions]. Now lets look at that from a mechanical aspect

Turn 1:
rogue wins: hold action new, init behind orcs
Orcs: Hold action, new init behind rogue

Turn 2:
Rogue attacks:
Orc Attacks:

Or

Rogue wins: Hold action
Orcs: hold action

Turn 2:
Rogue holds: new initiative order behind orcs
Orcs attack:
Rogue attacks:

For the duel:

Turn 1:
Guy 1 wins init, holds, new init behind guy 3
Guy 2 holds, new init behind guy 1
Guy 3: holds.

Turn 2: Go

guy 3: calls start, fires starting pistol, drops whatever
Guy 1 attacks
Guy 2 attacks

These are correct initiative orders for these situations in which opponents are not surprised.

The only way i do it differently is that i only give someone who says "i attack" an initial surprise round instead of delcaring they win initiative, since i dont what is essentially arbitrary initiative.

Goumindong
2007-10-22, 10:27 AM
Utterly ridiculous or not, this is RAW.



No matter how prearranged the duel is, you're flat footed until you've taken an action in the combat.

Combat has already started, everyone has had a chance to act. They just havent.

This means that everyone has had the possibility of taking an action against the other side whether they have excercized that ability is not for you to judge as to their awareness, they are aware and ready against any opponent unless they specifically state they are not. At the point of the start of a duel, both sides are aware of the other, and have had the chance to take actions but have not.

Otherwise a guy who meerly defends in a square without fighting defensivly or taking a full defensive action is always flat footed until he actually moves or takes an action, which is beyind dumb.

In short, you are wrong, dead wrong, so very wrong, about as wrong as wrong can be.

The determinor is in bold "could the person being attacked have made an action against the other side or or any action while both were observing each other?" if yes, they are not flat footed RAW, because if they could have made an action, and since they could have made an action combat has already started.

Two people stand 30 feet apart not moving with weapons sheathed but ready. One does not get to attack the other flat footed because they both have not taken actions.

technophile
2007-10-22, 10:28 AM
Otherwise you get utterly ridiculous things happening like one person being flat footed at the begining of a pre-arranged duel
It's not ridiculous at all.

Picture a Wild West shootout. Two guys facing each other down a street, sun high overhead. Both are aware of each other, both are ready to draw.

One guy goes for his gun. Whoever is faster (i.e. wins initiative) gets his gun out first and shoots. The other guy is flat-footed--he can't do anything, because the first fellow is just faster than him. He can't dodge, he can't move, he can't shoot, he's at the mercy of the guy who has better reflexes.

Yes, it's possible to construct some kind of scenario where it doesn't make sense, but that's true of every rule. This one does actually generally make sense.

Goumindong
2007-10-22, 10:33 AM
It's not ridiculous at all.

Picture a Wild West shootout. Two guys facing each other down a street, sun high overhead. Both are aware of each other, both are ready to draw.

One guy goes for his gun. Whoever is faster (i.e. wins initiative) gets his gun out first and shoots. The other guy is flat-footed--he can't do anything, because the first fellow is just faster than him. He can't dodge, he can't move, he can't shoot, he's at the mercy of the guy who has better reflexes.

Yes, it's possible to construct some kind of scenario where it doesn't make sense, but that's true of every rule. This one does actually generally make sense.

The other guy is at the ready and ready to defend and/or dodge, his failure to do so says nothing about his state of readyness, it only means the other guy won initiative and rolled well enough to hit the others AC.

What is to stop the guy who lost initiative from drawing early? Nothing? If the answer is nothing physically or mentally[I.E. he didnt know the other guy was there, or there was a physical impediment such as hold person preventing him from standing ready], then he has had a chance to act and so is not flat footed.

Kompera
2007-10-22, 10:39 AM
Combat has already started, everyone has had a chance to act. They just havent.

This means that everyone has had the possibility of taking an action against the other side whether they have excercized that ability is not for you to judge as to their awareness, they are aware and ready against any opponent unless they specifically state they are not. At the point of the start of a duel, both sides are aware of the other, and have had the chance to take actions but have not.No one has the possibility of taking an action until their initiative number rolls around. Until then, they are flat footed. So, either your example was poorly described, or you're simply wrong. Either way, and "in short, you are wrong, dead wrong, so very wrong, about as wrong as wrong can be."

But thanks for playing.

Goumindong
2007-10-22, 10:41 AM
No one has the possibility of taking an action until their initiative number rolls around. Until then, they are flat footed. So, either your example was poorly described, or you're simply wrong. Either way, and "in short, you are wrong, dead wrong, so very wrong, about as wrong as wrong can be."

But thanks for playing.
If they have had the chance to act their initiative number has come around they have just done nothing.

This is why combat stats when both parties are aware and not when one party takes action.

I.E. combat has already started and both have been holding actions until actions have been taken.

Kompera
2007-10-22, 10:59 AM
If they have had the chance to act their initiative number has come around they have just done nothing.

This is why combat stats when both parties are aware and not when one party takes action.

I.E. combat has already started and both have been holding actions until actions have been taken.I am but a poor, simple caveman. Your technology amazes and confuses me. Bring me another drink!


If they have had the chance to act their initiative number has come around they have just done nothing.This both makes no sense (i.e. Going first = good) and was no part of your duel scenario. Retro-mod the situation if you like, but don't try to apply logic to a situation which you invented and which makes no sense at all. And don't try to claim that your scenario has any relevance according to the rules.


This is why combat stats when both parties are aware and not when one party takes action.This also makes little sense. Combat does not start when both parties are aware. It starts when one side takes an action, regardless of the awareness of the other side. That's called surprise. The party which has not acted yet is flat footed, regardless of surprise. The text about "combat stats (starts?)" and "both parties are aware" does not apply, at all.

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-22, 11:21 AM
What is to prevent both characters (in a metagame sense) from declaring 'combat mode' before the duel actually starts? There isn't anything precluding a roll for initiative just whenever anyone feels the need for it. Having rolled initiative and acted before actual combat began, and being aware of one another, they are not flat-footed once they are permitted to attack.

Likewise, if the orcs have been watching the halfling crawl across the ceiling all this time, they have had plenty of opportunity to go to combat rounds and pass several of them before the knives come out.

Kompera
2007-10-22, 12:03 PM
What is to prevent both characters (in a metagame sense) from declaring 'combat mode' before the duel actually starts? There isn't anything precluding a roll for initiative just whenever anyone feels the need for it.Yes, there is.


Combat
HOW COMBAT WORKS

Combat is cyclical; everybody acts in turn in a regular cycle of rounds. Combat follows this sequence:

1.Each combatant starts out flat-footed. Once a combatant acts, he or she is no longer flat-footed.
2.Determine which characters are aware of their opponents at the start of the battle. If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds of combat begin. The combatants who are aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take one action (either a standard action or a move action) during the surprise round. Combatants who were unaware do not get to act in the surprise round. If no one or everyone starts the battle aware, there is no surprise round.
3.Combatants who have not yet rolled initiative do so. All combatants are now ready to begin their first regular round of combat.
4.Combatants act in initiative order (highest to lowest).
5.When everyone has had a turn, the combatant with the highest initiative acts again, and steps 4 and 5 repeat until combat ends.

Chronos
2007-10-22, 12:14 PM
Your player is retarded for wasting six feats on Improved Initiative + Combat Expertise + Dodge + Mobility + Spring Attack + Whirlwind Attack.Aside from the fact that Improved Initiative isn't a waste for anyone, especially not a rogue, there's no player here; this is a purely hypothetical situation I constructed for purposes of being an example of the rules quirk. The important point is, some sort of situation comes up where it's plausible that some of the enemy will be surprised, and the character has a very powerful option that's only available as a full-round action. A whirlwind sneak attack was just the first option I could think of, but if you prefer, it could be a sorcerer with a spell that's devastating when appropriately metamagicked. Likewise, the "dropping from the ceiling" start of combat could just as easily be a dismissed invisibility like Nebnezz suggested, or the character stepping onto a Teleportation Circle, or anything else which would cause the character to abruptly appear in the orcs' midst.

The point is, when you have a powerful full-round action available and a lot of enemies, it hurts to have a surprise round, even if you're one of the parties acting during it (unless, of course, you're the only one acting in it).

fendrin
2007-10-22, 12:32 PM
Due to an interesting quirk in how the surprise rules operate, it can sometimes actually hurt a character if one of the opponents is surprised. An extreme example:

Consider a rogue, with the Improved Initiative and Whirlwind Attack feats (plus prereqs, of course). The rogue is currently hiding, clinging to a light fixture, above a table around which eight orcs are gathered, playing poker. Suddenly, the rogue drops from the fixture onto the table surrounded by orcs, and the combat begins. The orcs received a tip that they were being infiltrated, and were wary, so they all manage not to be surprised. Since nobody was surprised, there's no surprise round. Everyone rolls initiative, and the rogue, with Improved Initiative and a high dex, wins easily. The rogue then Whirlwind Attacks all eight orcs, and thanks to sneak attack damage (the orcs were all flatfooted), kills them all before they can act. All around, a good situation for the rogue.

Now, however, consider another situation, exactly like the previous, except that one orc was too caught up with counting his winnings to notice the rogue jumping onto the table. So that one orc is surprised, but nobody else is. Since one but not all of the combatants was surprised, there's a surprise round. The rogue and the other seven orcs all roll initiative, and the rogue wins easily. But now, since it's a surprise round, the rogue can't make a full attack, and kills only one orc. The six surviving, aware orcs all attack once in the surprise round. The next round, all seven orcs are aware, and six of them are no longer flat-footed. The rogue has taken a fair amount of damage, and is surrounded by things she can no longer sneak attack. All in all, a bad situation for the rogue.

So the fact that one of the enemy was surprised, which should have helped the rogue, actually ended up hurting considerably. Huh.

nononono.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#surprise]The[/url] Surprise Round

If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin.

In your example, the rogue is aware of the orcs. That means that so long as at least one orc is surprised, there is a surprise round. Now, assuming that all of the orcs fail to notice the rogue, the rogue drops down (if you rule that dropping is a free action, the rogue now skewers an orc. If it is a move action, the rogue does nothing but drop). The surprise round is over, one way or the other.

Initiative is rolled. As in your example, the rogue wins initiative. The rogue takes a full action to whirlwind attack. All of the orcs die, because they are still flat footed (having not yet taken an action).

Now assume that the rogue fails utterly at stealth, and all of the orcs notice him (your example 1). As none of the combatants are surprised, there is no surprise round. The rogue wins initiative, drops down, and what happens next depends on whether dropping is a free action or a move action. The rogue could have a very bad day. Personally, I would consider it jumping down, and therefore a move action. Bye bye rogue.

Now assume that one of the orcs fails to notice the rogue(your example 2). There is a surprise round, in which the Rogue drops down (and maybe skewers an orc, as previously noted.) The rest of the orcs (except the surprised one) now draw their weapons (and if they have quick draw, attack). Even if they can't kill the rogue in round 1, they are probably tough enough to survive a non-sneak-attack rapier wound. the one orc who failed to notice the rogue is in for a world of hurt.

What we have here is not a quirk of the surprise round rules. It is the benefit of stealth, the benefit of awareness skills, and the penalty for failing either one. In otherwords, exactly how the game should be.

As for the dueling scenario... or for that matter, a boxing, wrestling, or martial arts match (i.e. combat as sport), these are governed by conventions that function at a meta-level to the rules. So both people know in a duel that the other person is going to try to attack as quickly as possible when the signal is given. A smart duelist is going to take a full defense action prior to the signal.
1) they are not flat-footed
2) they get an AC bonus
And the rules of a duel are that you don't attack before the signal, not that you can't take an action before the dual.

Goumindong
2007-10-22, 12:38 PM
...

You are fudging the rules to get them to produce a situation to your advantage when you would otherwise not.

Here are two situations:

Two peopole are facing each other in a duel.

One person attacks the other.

And

Two people are facing each other in a duel.

One person takes a five foot step

the other attacks.

------------------------------

Under your mangling of the rules, in the second situation the defender is not flat footed, but in the one above the defender is. This is stupid

Just because no one has taken any action does not mean the participants are not in combat


Yes, there is.

No there isnt, the orcs, aware of the other combatant say "i take a combat action and ready an attack on any hafling that comes within reach"

Or they take the action "I play my cards"

These are all actions which can take place in the combat round.

If both parties are aware of each other and their intentions then combat has started. Its that bleeding simple. Just because they havent taken any actions that need to be rolled for does not mean that combat hasnt started. And any action of not explicitly telling the players that combat has started is simply avoiding metagame problems with the players saying "welp, he has made his spot roll"

I am going to bold the relevent parts again for you.

"At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act you are flat footed"

Before you have had a chance to act. running combat rounds says nothing about your ability to act, you have the ability therefor you are not flat footed. You only dont have the abilitly when under the effect of a spell or effect that forces you to not, when surprised, or when not aware of the combatant.

Just like when you run a "check" for a climb against a DC 6 with a modifier of -2 the guy takes 10 and climbs you dont need to check. You dont need to count the 10 feet he can move every round you just know he climbs and it takes him a few minutes. This is why you dont run combat rounds all the time, not because they arent happening, but because its inefficient and a waste of your time.

When two combatants are aware of each other they are taking actions and these actions are in a combat round. Why dont you roll initiative? Its not necessary yet. Why dont you go around asking for actions? Its not necessary yet. Are these still happening by how the mechanics play out? Yes they are. Are the mechanics worded in such a way as to not produce extrainious work for you? Yes, they are.

Is someone who is aware of you and has not taken action flat footed against your attacks? Yes, if less than one round of game time[six seconds] and you won initiative. No, if more than one round of game time has passed or you lost initiative.

Techonce
2007-10-22, 12:41 PM
The suprise round is the rogue dropping down to the table. Letting go is a free action. However letting gravity take over and falling is his suprise action.

First round he gets a full attack.

If the orcs were aware of the rogue, he does not get a suprise round. Or he does, but the unsuprised orcs ready an action to beat on him once he is in range, or if they are aware, they attack him as he moves through thier zones of threat.

As fotr he duel. Two gunfighters face each other and both ready actions to draw and fire before the other does. Since they have both readied actions, neither are flatfooted. The move-typical duel, has both combatants facing each other listening to the western music and letting the tumbleweed cross the road, not to mention the townsolf hiding behind closed doors. During this time both are reading, delaying. both of these count as taking an action.

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-22, 12:43 PM
There definitely is something funny there. It gets even messier if you've got people coming in in the middle of combat. If I recall the DMG had a small section on that, but I don't have it handy...in any case, you can charge someone and have them flatfooted for not having been aware of you and thus not having rolled initiative. But you can't charge them and have them flatfooted for not having a clue where you were coming from because you're hiding.:smallfrown:

Kompera: What part of your quote precludes the (purely metagame) declaration of a start of combat at absolutely any time?
-"You see an orc."
-"I roll initiative!"

-"You see an old man. He's calling something to you."
-I roll initiative!"

technophile
2007-10-22, 12:43 PM
What is to stop the guy who lost initiative from drawing early? Nothing? If the answer is nothing physically or mentally[I.E. he didnt know the other guy was there, or there was a physical impediment such as hold person preventing him from standing ready], then he has had a chance to act and so is not flat footed.
No, he doesn't have a chance to act. The other guy is faster than he is.

If you get a higher init score than your opponent, you get the first action because you moved first. He can't react to your move because you're faster than he is (otherwise he'd be going first), so he's flatfooted.

Once the first regular round is over, who's "faster" is less important, because you're alternating turns, so he can react to what you're doing etc.

Techonce
2007-10-22, 12:47 PM
No, he doesn't have a chance to act. The other guy is faster than he is.

If you get a higher init score than your opponent, you get the first action because you moved first. He can't react to your move because you're faster than he is (otherwise he'd be going first), so he's flatfooted.

Once the first regular round is over, who's "faster" is less important, because you're alternating turns, so he can react to what you're doing etc.

True, but is a duel, the first few rounds of combat are spent getting into position and waiting for the judge or whatever to signal a start to combat.

Kaelik
2007-10-22, 12:50 PM
Aside from the fact that Improved Initiative isn't a waste for anyone, especially not a rogue, there's no player here; this is a purely hypothetical situation I constructed for purposes of being an example of the rules quirk. The important point is, some sort of situation comes up where it's plausible that some of the enemy will be surprised, and the character has a very powerful option that's only available as a full-round action. A whirlwind sneak attack was just the first option I could think of, but if you prefer, it could be a sorcerer with a spell that's devastating when appropriately metamagicked. Likewise, the "dropping from the ceiling" start of combat could just as easily be a dismissed invisibility like Nebnezz suggested, or the character stepping onto a Teleportation Circle, or anything else which would cause the character to abruptly appear in the orcs' midst.

The point is, when you have a powerful full-round action available and a lot of enemies, it hurts to have a surprise round, even if you're one of the parties acting during it (unless, of course, you're the only one acting in it).

Chronos, look at post #37 by prufock, he solved your problem. Acting in the surprise round does not make one not flatfooted. Even if you act in a surprise round you are still flat-footed until you act in the regular initiative order. Ipso-facto all the orcs are dead.

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-22, 12:52 PM
In a traditional duel, anyone planning to take aggressive action (the only serious kind in a pistol duel) is readying an action to shoot as soon as the starting event goes off. A handkerchief drop is classic. The SRD doesn't seem to rule on what happens when two readied events trigger at once, unless I'm missing something. I'd say initiative roll-off, which gives the desired result.


Now assume that the rogue fails utterly at stealth, and all of the orcs notice him (your example 1). As none of the combatants are surprised, there is no surprise round. The rogue wins initiative, drops down, and what happens next depends on whether dropping is a free action or a move action. The rogue could have a very bad day. Personally, I would consider it jumping down, and therefore a move action. Bye bye rogue.
The key point here is that, if you consider it a free action (which, incidentally, dismissing a spell is not, so that example doesn't work), the rogue may get a whirl-sneak attack. But can't possibly do so if a surprise round occurs in which most of the orcs get to act.

Other than that, I largely agree.

Goumindong
2007-10-22, 01:21 PM
No, he doesn't have a chance to act. The other guy is faster than he is.

If you get a higher init score than your opponent, you get the first action because you moved first. He can't react to your move because you're faster than he is (otherwise he'd be going first), so he's flatfooted.

Once the first regular round is over, who's "faster" is less important, because you're alternating turns, so he can react to what you're doing etc.

12 seconds have passed since they have seen each other. That guy must have really horrible reflexes to not be able to act in 12 seconds. If 0 seconds have passed since they have both seen each other they are both surprised.

Chronos
2007-10-22, 02:04 PM
Chronos, look at post #37 by prufock, he solved your problem. Acting in the surprise round does not make one not flatfooted. Even if you act in a surprise round you are still flat-footed until you act in the regular initiative order. Ipso-facto all the orcs are dead.You do act in the regular initiative order in the surprise round.

But even if we take the interpretation that acting in the surprise round still leaves you flat-footed, the second situation is still worse for the rogue, since he still gets attacked by six or seven orcs in the second situation (which will hurt even if they're just punching), compared to getting out of the first situation unscathed.

Indon
2007-10-22, 02:09 PM
What do you think? Just an artifact of the writing style or do "regular round" and "regular turn" mean something?

Well, if it is interpreted as you still being flat-footed even if you act in the surprise round, then the best option for the orcs (possibly even the rogue) in that surprise-round scenario is to delay their actions to the first real round, where the Rogue can subsequently Whirlwind Attack and kill all the orcs if the Rogue rolled higher initiative in the previous round, completely regardless of who other than the rogue got to take the surprise round.

Wow, that was one sentence. I think I just rolled a natural 20 on the English language.

Goumindong
2007-10-22, 02:28 PM
You do act in the regular initiative order in the surprise round.

But even if we take the interpretation that acting in the surprise round still leaves you flat-footed, the second situation is still worse for the rogue, since he still gets attacked by six or seven orcs in the second situation (which will hurt even if they're just punching), compared to getting out of the first situation unscathed.

But the problem is that the rogue does not get a full round action agaisnt the orcs when it first engages them if they are aware. The falling is an action.

And of course if they are aware they are not flat footed in any instance the rogue attacks unless they have both become aware at the same time and that time was less than 6 seconds ago.

In no way is it worse for the rogue to surprise any number of the orcs and not any others over not surprising any of them.

fendrin
2007-10-22, 03:10 PM
even if we take the interpretation that acting in the surprise round still leaves you flat-footed, the second situation is still worse for the rogue, since he still gets attacked by six or seven orcs in the second situation (which will hurt even if they're just punching), compared to getting out of the first situation unscathed.

It should be bad for the rogue. The rogue tried to ambush a bunch of orcs and failed. The element of surprise can allow a smaller force to take out a larger force, but by being spotted, the rogue loses the element of surprise.

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-22, 03:28 PM
It should be bad for the rogue. The rogue tried to ambush a bunch of orcs and failed. The element of surprise can allow a smaller force to take out a larger force, but by being spotted, the rogue loses the element of surprise.
But, again, if there had simply been a normal start of encounter rather than a surprise round, the Rogue would probably have won initiative and killed them all without being touched. The presence of a surprised enemy is harming the rogue rather than helping them.

In this particular situation what actually happens is that the whole batch of orcs jump up with readied actions as the rogue drops, not needing to roll for initiative because they had readied in previous rounds (except the oblivious one), and as a result are not flatfooted in any round. But some parallel scenario in which there is a simultaneous start of battle could happen.

Goumindong
2007-10-22, 03:36 PM
But, again, if there had simply been a normal start of encounter rather than a surprise round, the Rogue would probably have won initiative and killed them all without being touched. The presence of a surprised enemy is harming the rogue rather than helping them.

In this particular situation what actually happens is that the whole batch of orcs jump up with readied actions as the rogue drops, not needing to roll for initiative because they had readied in previous rounds (except the oblivious one), and as a result are not flatfooted in any round. But some parallel scenario in which there is a simultaneous start of battle could happen.

No, its not, we have already explained why. If they are not surprised in this situation then they would have already taken actions even if those actions were not overt attacks on the rogue which means they would not be flat footed.

Unless they were flat footed for sitting down, in which case the surprise round would indeed allow the non-surprised to leave that position before the rogue could attack them all.

Kaelik
2007-10-22, 05:08 PM
No, its not, we have already explained why. If they are not surprised in this situation then they would have already taken actions even if those actions were not overt attacks on the rogue which means they would not be flat footed.

You are absolutely wrong. By your incredibly bad logic of what constitutes having actions there would never be a surprise round in the game of D&D.

Goumindong
2007-10-22, 05:45 PM
You are absolutely wrong. By your incredibly bad logic of what constitutes having actions there would never be a surprise round in the game of D&D.



No, there would be surprise rounds all the time. Any time anyone was surprised.

1. They were not aware of the others via spot or listen checks before the encounter.

2. They were not aware the other was hostile or were not hostile towards them. [Also can be adjudicated via a bluff check, though it depends, and if its NPC bluffing PC should be done in secret. You bluff that you dont look like you are going to attack, opponent senses motive and if fails... surprise!]

E.G.

Not aware of intentions/not hostile

Guy 1: "hey friend, shake on it"?[bluff!]
guy 2: ok
Guy 1: Grapple... SURPRISE!

E.G. 2

Guy 1: "its really dark in here, i cant see"
Orc around the corner: SURPRISE!

E.G. 3

Guy 1: here were are walking down in the forest
Guy 2: sees robin hood
Robin hood: Surprise!
Guy 2: NOT ME, i saw ya!

what the contention is is that your opponent is not flat footed because you said "I attack" first. And neither are you if he rolls initiative[because he cant go before your initiative if its a reaction to your attack, he would have to hold his action]

Kaelik
2007-10-22, 05:49 PM
No, there would be surprise rounds all the time. Any time anyone was surprised.

I'm sorry, I said the wrong thing. By your bad logic no one would ever be flat-footed when they weren't surprised, even though the rules for flat-footed explicitly state that they would be.

Jarawara
2007-10-22, 05:50 PM
Well I see two points that are unclear in my mind, which might affect the outcome here. First of all, what is the definition of 'aware' vs 'surprised', and second of all, how far did the Rogue fall.

I've seen posted a few interpretations of the original description that makes assumptions that cannot be supported without further information. For example, one guy stated that the Orcs clearly saw the Rogue hanging from the ceiling, as they were 'aware' of him, and had been 'tipped off' to him, and further chastised the Rogue for thinking he could climb out on the "Chandelier", expecting to be unheard. There's no mention of chandelier, only "light fixture". Others detail the drop down as a move action, based on simple physics - it takes time to fall. Obviously, dropping down from a thousand feet will not be your free action in a round, as it takes longer than a round to fall that far. But we don't know the distance dropped either.

Consider the following example, (which might or might not be the original example, as like I stated, we don't know enough details). Rogue sees the Orcs below, Orcs are not looking up, as they are busy watching all the entrances and hallways warily (they were tipped off to intruders, better keep an eye out!), while they play their card game to pass the time. Rogue climbs out on the light fixture - which is two sturdy crossbeams that hold a large burning firepot in the center, providing light and maybe some heat to the room. Rogue considers dropping the firepot onto the unsuspecting Orcs below, but he doesn't see how to disconnect it, and besides, that'd make way too much noise as it hits. Instead, he quietly lowers himself over the side of a beam, hanging a mere 5 feet above the table. Then he drops... and mayhem ensures.

That was a five foot drop. Aren't you allowed to take a 5 foot step in a surprise round? Likewise if you make a full attack action? Surely you could do the same with a 5 foot drop. Therefore, no 'move action'.

So that brings up 'surprise' vs 'awareness'. There were eight Orcs, having been tipped off to a possible intruder, they were wary and on edge - but watching the hallways for such intruder, they missed the Rogue above them. Or did they? They roll for awareness, and were not surprised (a bonus to their check due to being tipped off earlier)... does 'awareness' mean they saw him before the combat began? As in, as some have suggested, the Orcs had seen the Halfling climb out onto the beams, lowering himself over the edge? Or does 'awareness' only begin when the Halfling suddenly lands on the tabletop?

The interpretation of awareness affects the rest of the example. If they became aware of him earlier, then they clearly have had time to prepare actions, ready weapons, and so on (and indeed, if that were the case, the Halfling probably figured that out already and aborted the attack, unless the Orcs were *really* good at bluffing ignorance). If, however, awareness of the Halfling only began at the moment the Rogue landed on the table, then yes, I see them as all flatfooted, and mayhem ensues. And, as Chronos pointed out, the Rogue might have gotten screwed by a odd interaction of the surprise rules, preventing said Halfling from getting sneak attacks on everyone.

Personally, I don't see the difference between surprise and last minute awareness, so I'm inclined to say that either: 1) The Orcs being 'aware' of him means that they saw him up on the light fixture, and being that Orcs are not known for their subtlety, I'd guess they'd react right away, so Rogue saw his plan had failed before he dropped down. Hope he took those feats in ManyShot, as this just became an archery duel. Or, if not that, then 2) The Rogue landing on the tabletop before being noticed is the classic definition of 'surprise' - meaning all 8 Orcs *were* surprised, and further awareness rolls can be ignored. Mayhem results as the Rogue gets full action (and then wins initiative in the first full combat round, if there's any Orcs left, completing the sweep, right?).

But if the definition of 'awareness' is muddled, then yes, there's an ambiguous situation here that Chronos has found.

*~*

Oh, and regarding the gunfighting duel:

We're standing in the street, readying ourselves for the duel. You have faster reflexes. You shoot first. I was readying myself, I *am not* flatfooted. Though I have to question the game mechanics that allow me to 'dodge' bullets with my dexterity, I am still not flatfooted.

However, if I walk out on the street, having just had breakfast, complaining about he high prices and how the coffee was absolutely terrible, and a bullet goes flying past my head... I look, and there's this guy in the street firing shots at me, another hits the door behind me, wood splinters fly everywhere... yeah, for that moment, I am flatfooted, until I snap out of it, and draw my gun. Or was that surprise? Or was the first bullet 'surprise', the second bullet, 'he won initiative, I was flatfooted?'.

Goumindong
2007-10-22, 08:28 PM
I'm sorry, I said the wrong thing. By your bad logic no one would ever be flat-footed when they weren't surprised, even though the rules for flat-footed explicitly state that they would be.

You are flatfooted against an opponent you are

A: Not aware of

B: Sucessfully Bluff/Feinted against

C: Any other special action that denies an opponent a chance to react to your actions.

Yes, you will never catch a guy flat footed that is aware of you that you are standing in front of. that is the point of catching people flat footed. You cannot just attack someone and declare they are flat footed. Just because the DM hasnt been taking your actions for combat doesnt mean the enemy isnt ready or hasnt been holding actions.

Here is a question. The Orcs are ready, they are aware of the combatant. If the combatant provoked an attack of opportunity. If he walked up to the orc and took an offensive action that would provoke would the orc get to take that attack?

The orc is ready, he has a weapon in his hand, he know the rogue is there, if the rogue walks up to him with a crossbow and attempts to fire into melee the orc is going to eviscerate him! Why? Because the orc is not flat footed, because it is ready for the attack, has a weapon drawn and knows the target is there and is attacking him!

edit: put it this way, is he "flat on his feet acting as if the guy on the ceeling isnt there"? or is he "at the ready"

edit: O.K. here is another situation were everyone is flat footed.

two guys are walking down a street, they can see each other and know each other is there. As they pass an alley, a bag of gold is thrown out and lands in the middle of the square.

Boom, combat starts as one goes for the gold. Other is flat footed, roll initiative.

In the situation with the orcs both sides have already started combat.

WrstDmEvr
2007-10-22, 08:39 PM
Due to an interesting quirk in how the surprise rules operate, it can sometimes actually hurt a character if one of the opponents is surprised. An extreme example:

Consider a rogue, with the Improved Initiative and Whirlwind Attack feats (plus prereqs, of course). The rogue is currently hiding, clinging to a light fixture, above a table around which eight orcs are gathered, playing poker. Suddenly, the rogue drops from the fixture onto the table surrounded by orcs, and the combat begins. The orcs received a tip that they were being infiltrated, and were wary, so they all manage not to be surprised. Since nobody was surprised, there's no surprise round. Everyone rolls initiative, and the rogue, with Improved Initiative and a high dex, wins easily. The rogue then Whirlwind Attacks all eight orcs, and thanks to sneak attack damage (the orcs were all flatfooted), kills them all before they can act. All around, a good situation for the rogue.

Now, however, consider another situation, exactly like the previous, except that one orc was too caught up with counting his winnings to notice the rogue jumping onto the table. So that one orc is surprised, but nobody else is. Since one but not all of the combatants was surprised, there's a surprise round. The rogue and the other seven orcs all roll initiative, and the rogue wins easily. But now, since it's a surprise round, the rogue can't make a full attack, and kills only one orc. The six surviving, aware orcs all attack once in the surprise round. The next round, all seven orcs are aware, and six of them are no longer flat-footed. The rogue has taken a fair amount of damage, and is surrounded by things she can no longer sneak attack. All in all, a bad situation for the rogue.

So the fact that one of the enemy was surprised, which should have helped the rogue, actually ended up hurting considerably. Huh.

1.Lets look at this from a different point of view. If you were warned a dangerous person was coming into the room, and suddenly a few minutes later he appeared dropping down from the ceiling, wouldn't you be surprised in the first place? Meaning the rogue still gets the surprise attack quirk?

2. If the orcs notice the rogue when he is on the ceiling, then everybody would be aware and therefore the rogue would win init and kill them

Shatteredtower
2007-10-22, 09:07 PM
You are flatfooted against an opponent you are

A: Not aware of

B: Sucessfully Bluff/Feinted against

C: Any other special action that denies an opponent a chance to react to your actions.D. Lower than in the initiative count before the start of combat.

And D is the one that matters the most.

Otherwise, you're looking at a bunch of guardsmen with actions readied to attack everyone they can see make an offensive move. In fact, the rules do cover such a possibility, which is called having the initiative.

Now you can certainly forfeit your initiative and not be caught flat-footed, but you may not do so until combat actually starts. You're both casting defensive spells? Fine; initiative doesn't matter. You're going to wait until your opponent casts that next defensive spell to attack? Roll initiative.

tbarrie
2007-10-22, 09:37 PM
As an off-the-cuff thought, if you just said that in the first round of combat those who can act always only get a standard action, it would deal with this issue and might work better overall.

Alternate, slightly different solution: just say there's always a surprise round.

Goumindong
2007-10-22, 09:49 PM
D. Lower than in the initiative count before the start of combat.

And D is the one that matters the most.

Otherwise, you're looking at a bunch of guardsmen with actions readied to attack everyone they can see make an offensive move. In fact, the rules do cover such a possibility, which is called having the initiative.

Now you can certainly forfeit your initiative and not be caught flat-footed, but you may not do so until combat actually starts. You're both casting defensive spells? Fine; initiative doesn't matter. You're going to wait until your opponent casts that next defensive spell to attack? Roll initiative.


The guardsman could already ready action to attack anyone who comes within a certian area. This is called "readying an action" and there is no determinor about when you can do it...

And that is not some special circumstance, the guards must make spot checks against your hide, sleight of hand, or sense motive against your bluff checks. And if they suceed the opposed check, then you "are a seen threat and they are aware", "are carrying a weapon and they are aware", or "see through to your intentions and are aware"

O.K. look at it this way. The guards become aware when they spot you as a threat.

This means that they are making sense motive checks on everyone they see, everyone they see is not bluffing and the guards take 10 always succeeds the DC. When someone with intentions comes if they fail their sense motive against the guys bluff badly then they get "he is ok" and so are surprised when he attacks.

If they suceed or dont fail bad enough they might think him suspicious.

You are arbitrarily setting the start of combat to be a point it is not in order to gain an advantage you should not be getting RAI and RAW. Combat does not start when you start making rolls. Rolls start when you take actions that necessitate them. Combat starts with both parties are aware of each other. Determining awareness is done via spot, listen, and sometimes bluff.

Clementx
2007-10-22, 09:55 PM
Probably the only way to resolve the OP's situation to a decent liking is to use the, "Complete a full-round action" action to Whirlwind through the surprise round to the first round. This is assuming dropping down was a 5-foot step or precedes combat. The real question- when do the attacks happen? Does the rogue get one attack (as if just using a standard action, or taking the first swing before he commits to a full-attack), finishes the surprise round, then uses a standard in the 1st round to get 7 more attacks? Personally, that is what I see happening. Incidentally, the rogue better use his move action to Tumble the hell out of there. There aren't any actual examples of completing full-round actions across rounds that I have seen.

There is a lot of arguing besides the point- one opponent being unaware prevents you from unleashing hell with a full-attack. This should not happen.

Goumindong
2007-10-22, 10:01 PM
*~*

Oh, and regarding the gunfighting duel:

We're standing in the street, readying ourselves for the duel. You have faster reflexes. You shoot first. I was readying myself, I *am not* flatfooted. Though I have to question the game mechanics that allow me to 'dodge' bullets with my dexterity, I am still not flatfooted.

However, if I walk out on the street, having just had breakfast, complaining about he high prices and how the coffee was absolutely terrible, and a bullet goes flying past my head... I look, and there's this guy in the street firing shots at me, another hits the door behind me, wood splinters fly everywhere... yeah, for that moment, I am flatfooted, until I snap out of it, and draw my gun. Or was that surprise? Or was the first bullet 'surprise', the second bullet, 'he won initiative, I was flatfooted?'.

A second scenario that more closely resembles the first.

You walk into the street and see a guy with a gun, he point the gun at you and yells "hands up!"

You do nothing. He attacks.

The folks here are arguing that you are flat footed. But you arent flat footed, you have had time to act, you just havent acted.

Why? Because combat starts when you become aware and NOT when when the first guy attacks.

Same scenario, different actions.

You walk out, guy has a gun pointed at you and says "hands up"

You quickdraw a knife and throw it at him, you win init.

Is he flat footed? NO! he has already had a chance to take action, he just hasnt. Even though is regular initiative action has not come up yet.

same scenario, different actions

You walk outside, see a guy, he sees you.

IMMEDIATLY He wins initiative and attacks. You are flat footed. You have not had a chance to act in response to his presence.

Almost the same scenario.

You walk outside, a guy outside with a gun hears you coming.

He shoots at you, SURPRISE ROUND.

He wins init and shoots again [you are still flat footed you have not had a chance to act]

--------------------

Its pretty simple. Do you see or hear the hostile or impending combat situation as to know the rough location of he/she/them at least one round prior to the actions we are discussing? If yes, then you are not flat footed. If no, then you are flat footed.

Techonce
2007-10-22, 10:12 PM
A few things to think about.

1. Dropping from the ceiling is a move action. Maybe it's only 5' but it is still a move.

2. If the orsc are aware and you are dropping amoungst them, well you get to suffer the consequences. Guess you got suprised more than them.

3. If the orcs are not aware then you spend your move dropping down and your full round next time whirlwind attacking.

4. Lets say you are invisible and stnading on the table. DM declares you have a suprise round before combat begins. You can do 1 of 2 things.
1. Take no action and wait until normal initiative to make a whirlwind attack. Sometimes waiting is better than a rushed action.
2. Start a full roudn action and finish on your higher intiiative.

using the invisible rule, you get sneak attack as long as they are unaware or they have not gone.

Final thought... The rules are a framework, they will not cover all situations, sometimes you have to use uncommon sense.

Kompera
2007-10-22, 11:08 PM
Kompera: What part of your quote precludes the (purely metagame) declaration of a start of combat at absolutely any time?
-"You see an orc."
-"I roll initiative!"

-"You see an old man. He's calling something to you."
-I roll initiative!"
No part of the quote which I believe you are referring to (but when a person has posted more than 1 quote, a more specific reference would be helpful)


Initiative Checks

At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check.

[...]

Flat-Footed

At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.

If the player intends to attack the Orc, this clearly starts a battle. If the player intends to attack the old man, this clearly starts a battle. If the player is not starting a battle, (note that this state exists in every case in which the player is not going to attack the old man) there is no Initiative roll, and no combat rounds elapse in which the player can claim to have either taken an action or to have passed their first opportunity to act, and therefore to no longer be flat footed.

But I see that the intent here is to reduce the number of times that your player could be, by the rules, considered to be flat footed. And this is simple to achieve. Have your character start a battle with everyone he sees, and he will reduce dramatically the number of times he is flat footed. And when the guards slay him for starting a battle with every old man he passes on the street, he will never again be flat footed.

Or rules lawyers can simply be invited to not return. Either way, the game is improved.

Goumindong
2007-10-22, 11:38 PM
So the player simply "intends" to attack the old man and starts the battle.

But when his turn comes up, he doesnt ever attack the old man.

Do you see where this is going?

You are arbitrarily defining the start of the battle as "when someone attacks". but this is not the start of the battle if both combatants are aware of each other

It doesnt matter if you have not actually rolled initiative yet. Init exists in a state such that any roll at any time works. You could roll init ages before combat began simply because you knew their scores and wanted to determine who would go first. Why do you only roll init when you start to determine actions? Because before then, when everyone is holding their actions or doing other actions that dont kill people init doesnt matter, not because it doesnt exist as a mechanic

As for rules laywering... You are the one who keeps insisting that the person who is aware of his attacker for multipule rounds is somehow flat footed in combat simply because they have not "taken an action", despite being aware of the attacker for over 6 seconds.

A guy pulls a butterfly knife and spins it around flashily for 6 seconds then says "im going to gut you!" Are you flat footed? NO you have had 6 freaking seconds to do stuff! A Zombie reacts faster than that! Are you slower than a zombie?

A guy is walking towards me with a sword drawn, am i flat footed if he attacks me? Of course not, he has a freaking sword drawn, i am not going to sit here and let him walk up to me and attack me! I am aware of him and so, even if i dont take any action i am not flat footed.

The intent is not to reduce anything, the intent is to use the RAW as intended and produce a combat system that is intuitive so that players can expect actions to have reasonable reactions. It is not to reduce flat-footedness on players, that is easily achieved by simply surprising them, which is easily achieved by simply putting them in a situation where they are not aware of their attackers, bluffing them, or any other menagerie of tricks up a DMs sleve in order to give monsters surprise rounds, high initiative with mutual awareness, and/or a combination of the two.

Otherwise you get stupid stuff like this

DM: He faces you with his sword drawn
PC: I stand ready!
DM: He attacks you, roll init, NPC has an 8
PC: 4, darn
DM: He attacks, 1d20+5 against your flat footed ac, power attacking charge with a 2 point penalty, that is a total of 1d20+5 attack for 2d6+8 against your flat footed AC of 15
PC: I was ready!
DM: Yes, but because we hadnt rolled init yet you havent technicially taken a round of combat and so you are flat footed. Also, he hits you for 15 damage.

And or stupid stuff where the PC attacks first and the NPC holding the sword if flat footed just because.

Do you like stupid things like this in your game? If yes, then use the rules as you think they are.

If no, then realize that I am right, and combat had already started even if you hadnt layed down the initiative.

ed: lets say he didnt have a weapon drawn...

Then what happens, the DM knows he is going to attack you. What do you do? Bluff versus sense motive. Player succeeds he is aware of the enemy.

Shatteredtower
2007-10-22, 11:58 PM
You are arbitrarily defining the start of the battle as "when someone attacks".Nothing arbitrary about it, because there is no combat until the round someone makes an attack.

None. Now by all means, you can opt to make no offensive move in the round combat starts and not be caught flat-footed -- but you'll need to win initiative to do that.

Likewise, you can ready an action all you want, but still be caught flat-footed.

Two people sitting down to a tea party with each other are not in combat. There is no combat until one suddenly pulls a dagger on the other and attacks. At that point, initiative is rolled, and if the assailant doesn't win the initiative roll, the defender is not treated as flat-footed.

Arbitrary is defining everyone who isn't deceived by a Bluff check to be considered "already in battle," with everyone else they're aware of at all times.

Kompera
2007-10-23, 12:47 AM
So the player simply "intends" to attack the old man and starts the battle.

But when his turn comes up, he doesnt ever attack the old man.

Do you see where this is going?Yes, I think I do. You're going home, I'm playing D&D with people who don't try to bludgeon me with ridiculous situations designed to to try to never have their character be flat footed. You're either attacking, or you are not. If you're attacking, battle starts and initiative is rolled. If you choose to not attack, battle did not start and initiative was not rolled. You could get away with this a few times. But enough retro-motivation on your part purely intended to try to gimmick the system and I'm tired of it and you're going home.


You are arbitrarily defining the start of the battle as "when someone attacks". but this is not the start of the battle if both combatants are aware of each other

It doesnt matter if you have not actually rolled initiative yet. Init exists in a state such that any roll at any time works. You could roll init ages before combat began simply because you knew their scores and wanted to determine who would go first. Why do you only roll init when you start to determine actions? Because before then, when everyone is holding their actions or doing other actions that dont kill people init doesnt matter, not because it doesnt exist as a mechanic

The above is in clear violation of the initiative rules which I quoted. I won't bother to quote them again. Obey them, or go home. You can't "roll init ages before combat begins". You must roll initiative at the start of a battle. The old man on the street isn't a combatant unless he attacks you or you attack him. If this happens, a battle begins and Initiative is rolled.


As for rules laywering... You are the one who keeps insisting that the person who is aware of his attacker for multipule rounds is somehow flat footed in combat simply because they have not "taken an action", despite being aware of the attacker for over 6 seconds.If they are aware of an attacker, then initiative is rolled. They will be flat footed until they take an action.
The old guy on the street is not an attacker. If he does chose to attack you, or you chose to attack him, then initiative is rolled.


the intent is to use the RAW as intended and produce a combat system that is intuitive so that players can expect actions to have reasonable reactions. It is not to reduce flat-footedness on players, that is easily achieved by simply surprising them, which is easily achieved by simply putting them in a situation where they are not aware of their attackers, bluffing them, or any other menagerie of tricks up a DMs sleve in order to give monsters surprise rounds, high initiative with mutual awareness, and/or a combination of the two.

There is no such thing as "RAW as intended". That is a complete non sequitur.

By your statement above, you believe that no one should ever be flat footed unless they are surprised. A casual reading of the rules easily shows that this is not the case, and that characters can be flat footed without a surprise situation.


Otherwise you get stupid stuff like this

DM: He faces you with his sword drawn
PC: I stand ready!
DM: He attacks you, roll init, NPC has an 8
PC: 4, darn
DM: He attacks, 1d20+5 against your flat footed ac, power attacking charge with a 2 point penalty, that is a total of 1d20+5 attack for 2d6+8 against your flat footed AC of 15
PC: I was ready!
DM: Yes, but because we hadnt rolled init yet you havent technicially taken a round of combat and so you are flat footed. Also, he hits you for 15 damage.
It actually works like this:

DM: He faces you with his sword drawn
PC: I stand ready!
DM: Roll initiative. NPC has an 8
PC: 4, darn
DM: He acts first. He attacks, 1d20+5 against your flat footed ac, power attacking charge with a 2 point penalty, that is a total of 1d20+5 attack for 2d6+8 against your flat footed AC of 15
PC: I was ready!
DM: No, you wanted to be ready. But "At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed." Had you rolled higher on Initiative and gone first, you would have been ready, and he would have been flat footed. Also, he hits you for 15 damage.

You may consider it stupid if you choose, but this is exactly how the rules state that initiative and flatfooted work.


If no, then realize that I am right, and combat had already started even if you hadnt layed down the initiative.Combat specifically does not start until after initiative is rolled. You may house rule it any way you like, but don't try to claim that your house rules are the same as RAW.

Goumindong
2007-10-23, 12:49 AM
Nothing arbitrary about it, because there is no combat until the round someone makes an attack.

None. Now by all means, you can opt to make no offensive move in the round combat starts and not be caught flat-footed -- but you'll need to win initiative to do that.

Likewise, you can ready an action all you want, but still be caught flat-footed.

Two people sitting down to a tea party with each other are not in combat. There is no combat until one suddenly pulls a dagger on the other and attacks. At that point, initiative is rolled, and if the assailant doesn't win the initiative roll, the defender is not treated as flat-footed.

Arbitrary is defining everyone who isn't deceived by a Bluff check to be considered "already in battle," with everyone else they're aware of at all times.

Two people are sitting down at a tea party.

---
Person one comes with intention to attack person two.

Person two gets sense motive against something is up. If he succeeds he doesnt take penalties on his spots.

Person two gets spot against the weapons hide. If he succeeds he is aware

Person two gets spot against an attempt to draw the weapon concealed. If he succeeds he is aware.

Person two gets sense motive against a general bluff, if he wins, then person two is aware when person one attacks.

I.E. Both are aware before overt actions are taken. Though actions have been taken while aware.

---
No one comes with intent.

Something happens and both participants engage in combat. The person who wins init acts first and the other is flat footed.

I.E. Both become aware at the start of combat

---

Person one comes with intent.

Person two gets sense motive against bluff. Person two fails.

Person one gets a surprise round and if he wins init, a full round action agiainst person 2 while person 2 is flat footed.

I.E. person one is aware, person two is not.



None. Now by all means, you can opt to make no offensive move in the round combat starts and not be caught flat-footed -- but you'll need to win initiative to do that.

This is exactly what is happening except multipule rounds have already transpired. Combat does not start with someone saying "i attack" that is metagame info that lets us know when we need to roll

E.G.

Person 1 is aware of person 2, person 2 is aware of person 1.

Round 1;
Person 1 holds, init goes behind person 2
persion 2 holds, init goes behind person 1

round 2
person 1 holds, init goes behind person 2
person 2 holds, init goes behind person 1

Round 3:
"I attack"

Roll init. Person two wins, switch all init above so that person 1 is on top. Notice how it doesnt change anything? And if now actions were taken and the people didnt attack we wouldnt have had to roll anything? So we roll when you need to and not when combat begins because rolling then is worthless?

two people sitting down at a tea party are not in combat until both are aware or one acts with surprise.

but you as a player do not get to determine whether or not your character surprises an enemy, your character has to perform actions necessary to hide his intentions, this is why we have social rolls, because you are not your character, and saying "I attack" does not mean that you didnt broadcast this by your actions at least 6 seconds before that attack

It does not mean you dont need to use sleight of hand to draw the weapon without him seeing. It does not mean he doesnt get opposed spot on the weapon before you even have a chance to draw it, it does not mean that you can avoid skills simply by saying "i do that"

I dont care if you want to lie, cheat, and steal, your characters skills determines his ability to do so, not you simply declaring that he or she does those things.[otherwise i would just declare that i hit enemies and that they die as a player]

These rolls and checks exist for a reason, you should be using them.

Goumindong
2007-10-23, 12:58 AM
DM: No, you wanted to be ready. But "At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed." Had you rolled higher on Initiative and gone first, you would have been ready, and he would have been flat footed. Also, he hits you for 15 damage.

Not if 6 seconds have passed between the time that each combatant has become aware and combat has been joined. Why? Because each person could have acted if they so chose

How many times do i have to repeat this, battle started 6 seconds ago, you didnt roll init because you didnt have to.

Battle does not begin when someone says "i attack" battle begins when everyone is aware. If no actions are taken immediatly after that then no one is flat footed.

Another freaking example because you are too dense to get this through your head.

Person one faces person two 100 feet apart, weapons drawn.

Person one closes slowly and circles towards the well in the center of town.

Person two moves to cut him off. Each person is walking, taking single move actions.

No one has attacked either. but if one attacks the other, since combat already began whether or not init was rolled and whether or not anyone said "i attack" they are both not flat footed, they cant be flat footed, because they are ready even if the other one hasnt attacked!

Previous examples havent had the combatants moving since moving is an action. But holding an action is also an action.

Here is another example where you fail.

Person one circles around, person two takes a full defensive action and 5 foot steps into person ones threat range. Person one attacks!

How is person 2 flat footed? He is taking a freaking full defensive action, but "no one has attacked" you say, "so combat hasnt been started!".

And the answer is, once again, "No, combat started ages ago, they just didnt swing their swords yet"

Kompera
2007-10-23, 01:02 AM
Combat specifically does not start until after initiative is rolled. You may house rule it any way you like, but don't try to claim that your house rules are the same as RAW.


How Combat Works

Combat is cyclical; everybody acts in turn in a regular cycle of rounds. Combat follows this sequence:

1. Each combatant starts out flat-footed. Once a combatant acts, he or she is no longer flat-footed.
2. Determine which characters are aware of their opponents at the start of the battle. If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds of combat begin. The combatants who are aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take one action (either a standard action or a move action) during the surprise round. Combatants who were unaware do not get to act in the surprise round. If no one or everyone starts the battle aware, there is no surprise round.
3. Combatants who have not yet rolled initiative do so. All combatants are now ready to begin their first regular round of combat.
4. Combatants act in initiative order (highest to lowest).
5. When everyone has had a turn, the combatant with the highest initiative acts again, and steps 4 and 5 repeat until combat ends.

Note that step 4 "Combatants act in initiative order (highest to lowest)." happens after step 3 "Combatants who have not yet rolled initiative do so. All combatants are now ready to begin their first regular round of combat."

You roll initiative, and then you can take an action. There is no case where this -


Person one circles around, person two takes a full defensive action and 5 foot steps into person ones threat range. Person one attacks!

can happen without initiative having been previously rolled.

Goumindong
2007-10-23, 01:16 AM
Combat specifically does not start until after initiative is rolled. You may house rule it any way you like, but don't try to claim that your house rules are the same as RAW.

Then roll initiative earlier!

Also you are dead wrong.

Because combat does not start when init is rolled, init is rolled when combat starts. The exact words are "At the start of a battle, roll initiative"

You do not cast fireball when 1d6/lvl is rolled, you roll 1d6/lvl when fireball is rolled. Combat starts when you are aware and can take actions, THEN you roll initiative, it does NOT start when your roll initiative.

Lets look at what a battle is and when it starts.

Does it start when both combatants are on the field and aware of each other? Does it start when they finnaly swing their swords at each other? Does it start when they move? Does it start when they charge? If they make tactical moves before attacking or charging has the battle started?

If they dont move possibly for tactical reasons possibly not has the battle also started?

What if one casts a buff spell? What if one teleports? What if one casts an area of effect spell that can be moved into the other and harm them or they might move into and harm, but doesnt specificially harm the other just yet?

Has the battle started?

Like it or not, you are rolling init when you need it instead of when combat starts. We do this a lot because we dont need it yet, which is only natural, but because you are doing this you are denying people their dexterity bonus and attacks of opportunity if they so choose to take them in situations where they would normally have them.

Why? Combat started.

What went wrong? You didnt roll init when you were supposed to.

Does anyone care? Not likly unless you deny them their dex bonus and AoOs since if no one is taking actions or dealing damage, it doesnt actually matter yet what the init actually is.

Goumindong
2007-10-23, 01:25 AM
can happen without initiative having been previously rolled.

It is impossible to take a full defensive action and be flat footed at the same time. A full defensive action grants a dodge bonus to AC. When you are flat footed or any time you are denied your dex bonus to AC you are denied any dodge bonuses to AC as well.


PC: "I am actively defending myself and move towards him!"
DM: "He waits"
PC: "I do it again! Well, minus the move since i am adjacent"
DM: "He attacks you, you are flat footed and unable to defend yourself"

MAN WHAT? You are telling me that i get a dodge bonus to AC, but am denied my dexterity bonus to AC? Are you telling me i cant defend myself until after someone attacks me?

Its ridiculous.

edit: better yet

DM: He is 90 feet away, he mvoes towards you 30 feet.
PC: I full defense and move 30 feet towards him
DM: He moves 30 feet closer.
PC: I full defense and move 30 feet towards him
DM: He attacks you, roll init, he wins, you are flat footed.

it doesnt work, init has been rolled its just that no one cared yet.

Kompera
2007-10-23, 01:29 AM
Because combat does not start when init is rolled, init is rolled when combat starts. The exact words are "At the start of a battle, roll initiative"
This is about the only thing you are correct about, and it is merely a semantic exercise without any real meaning. Since combat begins and initiative is rolled immediately before any other thing happenes, including any player actions, it's irrelevant whether it's stated "battle begins and initiative is rolled" or "initiative is rolled and battle begins". There's no difference between those statements, so pedantically pointing out my error only further demonstrates that you intent is to play rules lawyer in an attempt to seek undue advantage for your character.


It is impossible to take a full defensive action and be flat footed at the same time.You can't take the full defensive action unless initiative is rolled and your action comes around. Until then, despite your intent to act defensively, you are flat-footed. Note that "Total Defense" is listed under "Actions In Combat". If there is no combat, you can't take this action.

I'm done here. You can begin combat when your character is born for all I care, in any game in which the GM is able to be convinced that this is allowable under the rules. But don't try to pretend that this is how the rules are written.

Goumindong
2007-10-23, 01:33 AM
This is about the only thing you are correct about, and it is merely a semantic exercise without any real meaning. Since combat begins and initiative is rolled immediately before any other thing happenes, including any player actions, it's irrelevant whether it's stated "battle begins and initiative is rolled" or "initiative is rolled and battle begins". There's no difference between those statements, so pedantically pointing out my error only further demonstrates that you intent is to play rules lawyer in an attempt to seek undue advantage for your character.

I'm done here. You can begin combat when your character is born for all I care, in any game in which the GM is able to be convinced that this is allowable under the rules. But don't try to pretend that this is how the rules are written.

No, it is important because you are taking the action of rolling initiative to start combat, when this is not the case. Combat starts when combat starts, then you roll init.

If you dont need init, or you purposefully do not roll init until an attack is made, you are rolling init at the wrong time, rolling it much later than is called by the RAW, you are then abusing this misplaced roll to declare combat to have started later than it has in order to deny players AoOs and dex bonuses

Now do you get it?



I'm done here. You can begin combat when your character is born for all I care, in any game in which the GM is able to be convinced that this is allowable under the rules. But don't try to pretend that this is how the rules are written.

No, no, no, no, no. YOu cant start combat because you are not aware, are you going to attack the darkness?

Remember, all this hedges on when you become aware. Combat cant start until after at least one party is aware, and in that case, the other party is surprised. If both have been aware for >=1 round, no one is flat footed. If neither has been aware >= 1 round then everyone is flat footed until they act on their initiative.

Chronos
2007-10-23, 02:11 AM
You could roll init ages before combat began simply because you knew their scores and wanted to determine who would go first. Why do you only roll init when you start to determine actions?
Combat starts when combat starts, then you roll init.Goumindog, it would help matters tremendously if you decided what position you were trying to argue for. Then, you could put together arguments for that conclusion, and we could either agree, or debate your arguments. But it looks like what you're doing here is just saying that whatever we say is wrong, then randomly picking some position which disagrees.

Goumindong
2007-10-23, 02:27 AM
Could and do are different things.

The point is that awareness is the determinor that you are looking for, not whether you have rolled a die.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-23, 02:45 AM
Two people stand 30 feet apart not moving with weapons sheathed but ready. One does not get to attack the other flat footed because they both have not taken actions.

You'd better let all of the world's iaijutsu practitioners know that it's not really possible to quick-draw a sword and catch the other person flatflooted in a prearranged duel. They're all under a very different impression, silly people that they are.

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-23, 04:02 AM
You'd better let all of the world's iaijutsu practitioners know that it's not really possible to quick-draw a sword and catch the other person flatflooted in a prearranged duel. They're all under a very different impression, silly people that they are.
Are they really? I mean, do they think they can't catch someone equally 'flatfooted' after swords are drawn? Because if not, it isn't the same source of flatfootedness as we're talking about...

Goumindong
2007-10-23, 08:21 AM
You'd better let all of the world's iaijutsu practitioners know that it's not really possible to quick-draw a sword and catch the other person flatflooted in a prearranged duel. They're all under a very different impression, silly people that they are.

Go ask them if they are "ready" when combat begins.

What you are describing is where one wins initiative and rolls well[critical], or doesnt need to roll well.

Take the starting stance. Are they on the flats of their feet? Are they on their heels?

No they are not.

Techonce
2007-10-23, 09:43 AM
You'd better let all of the world's iaijutsu practitioners know that it's not really possible to quick-draw a sword and catch the other person flatflooted in a prearranged duel. They're all under a very different impression, silly people that they are.

I'll let them know when I ask them how many times they can swing their sword in a round, if drawing is a free action, and if they plan on taking a 5 foot step.

While they are confused with that I will sneak attack.

There is a feat that allows a quick drawn weapon to be used like this, but I don't remember the name. Practictioners of iaijutsu, would ahve this feat.


-------------------

Here is a different situation.

I had the party roll for initiative and neither they nor the monsters weer aware of each other. Why, becasue both parties had split into groups and I needed to know where people were when. When the groups finally met, I made the monsters flatfooted for the first round, since they were suprised by the sneaking party members.

OMG. I didn't follow the rules exactly! I made the rules fit the game instead of the game fitting the rules becasue, well it worked better.

I am very thankful that I don't have rules lawyers in my group and I don't have max/miners. I actually have a group of friends that come to take a part in somewhat predetermined story.

Serenity
2007-10-23, 10:05 AM
The problem with the situation is not so much that he surprised one of them, but rather that he surprised one of them. If he had surprised all the orcs, he'd get a free attack on one of them, and then still have the best initiative when regular combat starts and be able to unleash his Whirlwind Sneak Attack. Likewise if only one orc noticed him, he could use the surprise round to take him out, then follow up with the Whirlwind Sneak Attack. He might even be OK if two notice him--he takes out one, suffers on eattack, takes out the rest with a Whirlwind Sneak Attack, and then has to deal with the survivor.

Indon
2007-10-23, 11:54 AM
Go ask them if they are "ready" when combat begins.


I think I get what you're trying to say, and I think the rules can handle such a situation.

Generally, combat begins (including initiative) when someone takes a combat action. In situations where two parties are aware of each other, hostility is likely, but hostility has not broken out yet, one would think that nobody would be surprised; and nobody has to be.

This is because doing nothing is a combat action; it's called delaying.

You can begin combat, in D&D terms, simply by declaring "I prepare for combat." This is, in terms of the rules, taking a surprise round (if applicable) and delaying your action with it. Chances are, in a tense situation, everyone will have done this, and if the situation lasts a few seconds before combat actually breaks out, nobody is flat-footed because they have all reached their initiative and delayed.

skywalker
2007-10-23, 12:48 PM
My further contribution to the discussion:
1. While a turn lasts 6 seconds, they are supposed to be somewhat concurrent, such that both a turn and a round both last 6 seconds.

2. Great Scot, there's another reason for playing D&D besides min/maxing? That guy who attacked person_man has really opened up my eyes! I have a whole new lease on D&D life!

Dizlag
2007-10-23, 01:37 PM
Serenity hit the nail on the proverbial head. It isn't the fact that the rogue surprised only one orc in the second example by the OP, it's the fact that the rogue didn't surprise the other 7! That's why he's in a world of hurt, but that's what the surprise round is for IMHO. The rogue will still be able to take the WW attack during his action, but only apply sneak attack damage on the "surprised orc" who hasn't acted yet ... for situation 2 in the OPs first post.

Indon, you're spot on with the "Delay" combat action and that it is a valid action during combat. That might be the root of the misunderstanding between Kompera and Goumindong.

Dizlag

Chronos
2007-10-23, 02:56 PM
Serenity hit the nail on the proverbial head. It isn't the fact that the rogue surprised only one orc in the second example by the OP, it's the fact that the rogue didn't surprise the other 7!Oh, sure, surprising all eight is pretty clearly optimal. But the odd thing in this situation is that surprising none of them also works well, in fact as well as surprising 7 or 8 of them.

Dizlag
2007-10-23, 04:06 PM
Chronos,

Your first example DID include a surprise round ... the rogue dropping down onto the table was his surprise round action. He won initiative and took them all out with the WW attack. Now, surprising 7 of them is almost as good as surprising all 8, I will give you that. But surprising none of them, would've been deadly and clearly not as good as surprising all of them or most of them.

If a surprise round was skipped because the rogue and all of the orcs were aware of each other, then normal rounds would start. If you say they are aware of each other when the rogue drops down onto the table, then you've just replicated scenario #1 where the rogue dropping down IS the surprise round. This explanation following assumes the orcs notice the rogue in the rafters above the poker table. So, if the rogue wins initiative, then he would have to take a move action to drop down and make a singe melee attack with a sneak attack. Then the orcs draw their greataxes and each take a swing hacking the rogue to itty bitty bits.

I'm still not seeing where surprising all of them is just as good as surprising none of them. Anytime you get the drop on someone, or surprise someone you'll be able to take a single action before them. Then, initiative is rolled ... if you're lucky enough to win initiative also, then you're clearly at an advantage being able to act twice before their one turn.

Dizlag

Grynning
2007-10-23, 07:25 PM
The disagreement between Kompera and Goumindong is not even really over the nature of the surprise round rules, but about when combatants are considered flat-footed. RAW say that Kompera is right, and they make sense. You cannot simply declare that you are "getting ready" and starting combat before the DM calls for an initiative roll. Readying yourself, taking a defensive movement, etc are all things that happen after combat begins. Regardless of whether combatants are aware of one another, initiative represents when your character is able to react to the situation and START acting.
Basically, this is why the rules give the DM control over when combat begins, and not the players. Even if your character knows somebody is hostile, you can't precisely predict when they will start attacking, and it will always catch you off-guard (flat-footed). Go get in a real fight sometime and you'll understand. It takes the average person around three seconds to comprehend that something is coming at them and start moving, it's called reaction time. In three seconds the sword, fist, whatever is already hitting you. You're flat footed. Once you've processed the initial information, and are able to take an "active" part in the combat, it's much easier to dodge, parry, block or otherwise avoid attacks.
In short, I have to side with Kompera, even if you're not surprised, when the DM has you roll init, you're flat footed until you come up in initiative order.

Dullyanna
2007-10-23, 07:58 PM
I have to say that Grynning makes an excellent point.

At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.

So whether it makes sense or not IRL, that's how it goes, RAW-wise. Also, I'd forgotten that delays and readied actions must occur during combat, when your turn comes around. That surprise round crap is pretty wierd, IMO, but it doesn't mean the rogue would be better off if nobody could act. Of course, this has been sufficiently covered by Dizlag. And I'm not sure if this was gone over, but the rogue can drop from the ceiling and make an attack, as the former is, without a doubt, a free action.

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-23, 08:07 PM
The disagreement between Kompera and Goumindong is not even really over the nature of the surprise round rules, but about when combatants are considered flat-footed. RAW say that Kompera is right, and they make sense. You cannot simply declare that you are "getting ready" and starting combat before the DM calls for an initiative roll. Readying yourself, taking a defensive movement, etc are all things that happen after combat begins. Regardless of whether combatants are aware of one another, initiative represents when your character is able to react to the situation and START acting.
Basically, this is why the rules give the DM control over when combat begins, and not the players. Even if your character knows somebody is hostile, you can't precisely predict when they will start attacking, and it will always catch you off-guard (flat-footed). Go get in a real fight sometime and you'll understand. It takes the average person around three seconds to comprehend that something is coming at them and start moving, it's called reaction time. In three seconds the sword, fist, whatever is already hitting you. You're flat footed. Once you've processed the initial information, and are able to take an "active" part in the combat, it's much easier to dodge, parry, block or otherwise avoid attacks.
In short, I have to side with Kompera, even if you're not surprised, when the DM has you roll init, you're flat footed until you come up in initiative order.
This seems to be another iteration of the iaijutsu claim.

Are you really saying that defending yourself suddenly becomes possible only after you've been attacked? I've never been in a real fight, but I've had some sparring experience that doesn't remotely support that claim.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-23, 08:23 PM
Go ask them if they are "ready" when combat begins.

What you are describing is where one wins initiative and rolls well[critical], or doesnt need to roll well.

Wins initiative and catches the other person flatfooted, yes. That's what I'm describing.


Take the starting stance. Are they on the flats of their feet? Are they on their heels?

No they are not.

To steal a movie line, I do not think that means what you think it means.

In fact, I know it doesn't:

flat·foot·ed /ˈflætˈfʊtɪd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[flat-foot-id] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. having flatfeet.
2. taking or showing an uncompromising stand in a matter; firm and explicit: a flatfooted denial.
3. clumsy or plodding; maladroit: flatfooted writing.
—Idiom4. catch one flatfooted, to catch one unprepared; surprise: The amount of the bill caught us flatfooted.

(Take as a straight copy/paste from Dictionary.com, with the relevant definition bolded for your convenience.)

"But it's a pre-arranged duel, so they can't be surprised!"

... if you say that, then you clearly have no idea how contests of reflexes can pan out in real life, nevermind what the RAW in D&D say about it.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-23, 08:26 PM
This seems to be another iteration of the iaijutsu claim.

Are you really saying that defending yourself suddenly becomes possible only after you've been attacked? I've never been in a real fight, but I've had some sparring experience that doesn't remotely support that claim.

Sparring has nothing to do with it. Catching someone flatfooted in a game of initiative is like sucker-punching someone ... or like an iaijutsu contest, yes, where it's a pure game of reflexes and someone is going to lose big.

Maybe you're so incredibly amazing, it's impossible to catch you offguard, no matter how much quicker than you the other person is. Maybe even the Flash just couldn't hope to catch you unable to defend yourself, so long as you were aware of him before he attacked. Okay, fine: you have Uncanny Dodge IRL. For the rest of us mere mortals, though ...

Grynning
2007-10-23, 08:29 PM
We're not talking about sparring...we're talking about a combat situation where one person is trying to hurt the other in the most efficient way possible. On the topic of "real" fighting, I make no claims of IRL bad-assery, but I've been punched in the face a few times (I think it has something to do with my charming personality) and in my experience sparring and self defense training doesn't really help as much as you think it will when someone who you thought you were in an argument with makes it a fight.

And there's no iaijustsu "claim"...that's the rules. If I beat you on the initiative roll, I quick draw and hit you while you're still "getting ready". You're flat footed.

The whole problem with this "if I'm prepared I'm not flat-footed argument" is that people assume that the initiative roll happens real-time with the start of combat. It doesn't. If you have 2 people squaring off in role-play time, then combat starts, and the DM has you roll initiative, it doesn't mean your characters stop what they're doing and play rock-paper-scissors to see who gets to hit first. That initiative roll represents a mental "action" that may have already happened seconds or even minutes ago, and the person who made that action first is the first to strike. Therefore, you hit before the other character has done their "preparation," and you move into combat rounds.

This has already been discussed to death, but to paraphrase the many examples in the arguments above, if 2 characters are aware of each other and getting ready to fight, the initiative roll happens before anyone starts taking actions, regardless of when the DM actually has you throw the dice.
So, it goes like this (in very simple terms):

DM: You see an Orc. He sees you too.
Me: Ok, I draw my sword.
DM: He's drawing his Axe. Roll Initiative.
Me: 14
DM: Orc gets a 16, he draws his axe first and takes a swing...you're flat footed...
Me: Why?
DM: You haven't acted yet. You just started drawing your sword, before you have it out of the sheath to parry, his axe is crashing down on you.

Note that even though I said I was drawing my sword BEFORE initiative was actually rolled, the DM correctly points out that since the Orc beat me, his action takes place first in the combat round. I could whine and say that I already had my sword drawn and was "ready to fight" because I declared it before an initiative roll was called for, but then the DM would, also correctly, tell me to shut the hell up and play the game.

Also, if you don't want your character to be caught flat-footed, there is an easy solution: take a class level of some kind that gives you Uncanny Dodge. That class feature is there to represent an extraordinary ability to react to danger, and thus be able to defend yourself even before you've acted. If you don't have Uncanny Dodge, your character can't do that. Period.

Edit: Ninja'd by the last two posts. But my point remains the same.

Dullyanna
2007-10-23, 08:41 PM
Remember people, sparring matches and prearranged duels =/= real life combat. Why? Cause the guy who wants to hurt you, is probably just going to try and hurt you, meaning he won't wait till you're ready, or give a warning for when he'll attack. Unless s/he has a code of chivalry. Hell, that's been covered by the fact that Knight characters can't attack someone who's flat-footed. And remember, in DnD, combatants basically move one at a time. Initiative represents reaction time for a turn-based combat system.

Goumindong
2007-10-23, 09:38 PM
ONLY IF THE DEFENDENDING PLAYER HAS NOT HAD A SINGLE ROUND IN WHICH THEY COULD HAVE TAKEN COMBAT ACTION AGAINST THE ATTACKING OPPONENT

You are flat out telling people that they cannot prepare for a battle.

IN ALL OF THE SITUATIONS YOU DESCRIBE THE DEFENDING PLAYER HAS NOT BEEN AWARE OF THE ATTACKER FOR MORE THAN ONE ROUND.

Bolded and all caps'd to make this easier.

"could the player or npc have taken combat action?" If yes, not flat footed. If no, flat footed.

Goumindong
2007-10-23, 09:40 PM
Remember people, sparring matches and prearranged duels =/= real life combat. Why? Cause the guy who wants to hurt you, is probably just going to try and hurt you, meaning he won't wait till you're ready, or give a warning for when he'll attack. Unless s/he has a code of chivalry. Hell, that's been covered by the fact that Knight characters can't attack someone who's flat-footed. And remember, in DnD, combatants basically move one at a time. Initiative represents reaction time for a turn-based combat system.

It doesnt matter if he has waited or not, it matters if you have had time to react to his presense.

A guy is 100 feet down the road. He walks towards me, i get ready. he charges. Im flat footed? NO! I am ready.

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-23, 09:46 PM
Yes, I am ninja...:smallannoyed: I didn't say I couldn't be caught flatfooted, or hadn't for that matter. I said it hadn't happened as a result of the equivalent of failing a initiative roll. (And, while bludgeoning misrepresentations to death, not because I've got unbeatable reflexes, either. As far as hand to hand goes, I'm pretty sure my reflexes aren't on my side.)

Crack your DMGs to p21-23, the section concerning starting combat, initiative, and surprise rounds. Note that almost every bit of the discussion is about handling situations where the only thing limiting you from attacking is whether or not you know of the enemy's existence. You're flatfooted before your initiative 'normally' because, when combat starts, both sides are surprised. You kicked in the door and found out there was an orc on the other side, or some such. Whoever acts first catches the other still trying to process the presence of an enemy.

There is an example of a battle starting with neither side surprised on the bottom of p23. It doesn't say so explicitly, but it seems clearly indicated that in their example, no one is flatfooted for any part of the turn in which initiative is rolled and the fighting actually starts.

Grynning
2007-10-23, 10:05 PM
ONLY IF THE DEFENDENDING PLAYER HAS NOT HAD A SINGLE ROUND IN WHICH THEY COULD HAVE TAKEN COMBAT ACTION AGAINST THE ATTACKING OPPONENT

You are flat out telling people that they cannot prepare for a battle.

IN ALL OF THE SITUATIONS YOU DESCRIBE THE DEFENDING PLAYER HAS NOT BEEN AWARE OF THE ATTACKER FOR MORE THAN ONE ROUND.

Bolded and all caps'd to make this easier.

"could the player or npc have taken combat action?" If yes, not flat footed. If no, flat footed.

Bold and caps just reinforce how you're wrong and have resorted to childishness to defend your *incorrect* argument. If the defenders had a single round in which they could have taken combat action, that means combat already started. The initiative order supersedes pre-combat declarations except in the case of surprise.
If there was a round before people start swinging, it happens in initiative order, leading up to when you start resolving rolls. So if you and the opponent both declare that you are holding actions to attack one another, then yes, neither of you are flat-footed when the attacking starts. But here's where you're wrong.
If you declare, before combat starts, that you are holding an action to attack, that still has to have a place in initiative order when combat rounds do start. So, as soon as you declare that you are taking any sort of "combat" action, WHICH INCLUDES HOLDING, DELAYING, TOTAL DEFENSE OR ANYTHING ELSE, you've started combat, and are therefore required to act in initiative order. So when the DM has you roll, your preparation starts on your initiative count, not at some arbitrary point in the past that prevents you from being flat-footed. The only thing that over-rides this is the surprise rules, which means you act before anyone else (i.e. before initiative count starts). We're not talking about surprise here, though, just whether you're flat-footed.
Also, in your last post, you mention the 100-feet-down the road scenario. Of course you can prepare for someone you see coming. He's 100 feet away, if you ready an action to hit him, then it is a combat round. He spends actions moving toward you (his turn), you prepare for his arrival (your turn). Now, if he beats you in initiative and dimension doors right into your face, obviously you weren't prepared for that, and are flat-footed against that attack (assuming he has a way to attack that same round). Likewise, if he is really fast and able to charge from that distance, you don't have time for your preparation, he closes and hits you while you're still going "Oh, that guy could attack me, I should get OH GOD MY SPLEEN!! YOU STABBED MY SPLEEEEENNN!" Conversely, if he takes several turns to get to you before of attacking, you are not flat footed, and you get your readied action to hit him first.

Ulzgoroth, the example in the DMG you site is covering various types of surprise encounters, which, while directly tied to the main point of this thread, is not what I was talking about. We're just discussing whether you can be flat-footed if you're not surprised, and the answer is YES.

Logic Cannon
2007-10-23, 10:11 PM
Maybe I'm missing something here:

Rogue takes out the first orc in the surprise round (where he gets to sneak attack because his target was unaware of him), wins the first round in the "real" combat phase and the living orcs still have yet to take an action in combat, which makes them still flat-footed. As they're denied their dexterity bonus to AC, the rogue in question can still make a whirlwind attack and get the sneak attack bonus against all of them.

Cthulhu
2007-10-23, 10:22 PM
Maybe I'm missing something here:

Rogue takes out the first orc in the surprise round (where he gets to sneak attack because his target was unaware of him), wins the first round in the "real" combat phase and the living orcs still have yet to take an action in combat, which makes them still flat-footed. As they're denied their dexterity bonus to AC, the rogue in question can still make a whirlwind attack and get the sneak attack bonus against all of them.

It actually says this in the rules quoted on PAGE 1 of this thread. I've bolded the relevant part.



At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.


Is that some how invisible to the people in this thread?

So the action sequence is

Rogue decloaks;
One orc is surprised, everyone else gets to act - Rogue stabs surprised orc, everyone else goes for weapons; and then
If Rogue wins initiative and attacks via WW, he gets to sneak attack everyone if they are still in range of his melee attack as they are flatfooted according to the SRD text.

No possibility of contesting that resolution.

Grynning
2007-10-23, 10:49 PM
Actually, that's not quite right. Note that you said "Everyone else goes for weapons" during the surprise round. That means they have acted, and are not flat-footed.
The only situation in which the Rogue could whirlwind kill everybody in this scenario is if he lands on the table, they are all surprised, then he wins init and whirlwind sneak attacks everyone in a single round.
If ANY of the orcs are NOT surprised, they roll init normally. That means if the Rogue wins, he lands, using his surprise round action (landing on the table after dropping is at least a move action). Then the not-surprised orcs all get one action, likely drawing weapons. Assuming he wins initiative against the other orcs at this point, then when he whirlwinds, and he will not get sneak attack damage against the ones the ones that weren't surprised, he will get it against the ones that were (and thus haven't acted).

EDIT: Also, if some are surprised and some aren't, that means the rogue could still sneak attack any of them if he won init for the surprise round (they haven't acted yet). So if he can somehow make a full-round action in the surprise round (I believe there is a feat that lets you do so somewhere), then he could still theoretically WW SA them all to death. Of course this assumes that he is already on the table when the surprise round starts. Feather Fall plus invisibility maybe.

Logic Cannon
2007-10-23, 11:10 PM
Even taking a step back, the situation presented makes no sense. If the orcs were expecting to be attacked, then how did the rogue climb up on a light fixture and ambush them? Troopers waiting around camp expect to be attacked but that doesn't mean they're not taken by surprise when mortar rounds come crashing down into their tent. If the orcs are expecting to be attacked it means they have their weapons available for use (orcs not expecting attack likely have them stashed someplace less handy). The only way they'd get to act in the surprise round is if they knew the rogue was there. That then begs the inevitable question - if they knew the rogue was there, then why did they let him climb up the wall and over the heads without doing anything?

Grynning
2007-10-23, 11:16 PM
I was assuming they become of aware of the rogue just before he drops. This would represent a surprise round to me.
Here's how I see it playing out. I'm a rogue, and for whatever reason I'm on the ceiling, and an orc or two looks up and sees me. This is when I decide to drop and start killin'. The orcs that saw me aren't surprised, the rest are, so I roll init against the ones who made their spot checks. I drop, the two that saw me draw, then the other orcs roll init. They can't beat my godly init roll, so I whirlwind, killing the ones that are still flat footed and doing a little damage to the ones that saw me. Either way, I'm still fighting fewer foes than before.
In this scenario, the rogue will still get attacked, but then one hopes that a Rogue who is jumping down to melee folks will at least have a decent AC, so the ones that do get attacks won't kill him. Then he tumbles away and comes up with a new strategy to kill the remaining orcs.

Goumindong
2007-10-24, 12:38 AM
yadda yadda yadda

Then you/we are rolling initiative at the wrong time. The problem then is not with the state of readyness, but the enforcement of the rules.

Read the entire thread next time will ya?

Grynning
2007-10-24, 12:49 AM
Um...pretty sure I have read the entire thread, and how am I rolling init at the wrong time? An initiative roll happens at the start of combat. If you say you're taking a combat action, then the DM has you roll init, your action happens in the initiative order, not before you rolled the die. The entire point of my posts has been that it doesn't matter when the real-life initiative roll takes place, initiative order is in effect before actions are taken. If that's too hard for you, go play video games or something. Real time is not the same as game time.
And if you're referring to my interpretation of the rogue scenario, please be more specific in your criticism.

Goumindong
2007-10-24, 01:15 AM
Um...pretty sure I have read the entire thread, and how am I rolling init at the wrong time? An initiative roll happens at the start of combat. If you say you're taking a combat action, then the DM has you roll init, your action happens in the initiative order, not before you rolled the die. The entire point of my posts has been that it doesn't matter when the real-life initiative roll takes place, initiative order is in effect before actions are taken. If that's too hard for you, go play video games or something. Real time is not the same as game time.
And if you're referring to my interpretation of the rogue scenario, please be more specific in your criticism.

Taking a combat action that does not initiate immediate hostilities does not warrant immediate or retributive action. Such that taking a full defensive action or holding your action does not pose a situation where the other combatant can attack you before you take that action I.E. it is impossible for them to notice the action and so take action.

Such, init is rolled, and if they win, they cannot take any action but a hold action, they are not flat footed but their opponent isnt either.

As you have said, what has already happened is that initiative is already "In effect", and the guy who has won initiative has already held his action while the guy who lost did not.

You are rolling init at the wrong time. It happens immediatly after they both become aware. If you roll 6 seconds later, you have already had 2 held actions.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-24, 01:46 AM
Yes, you will never catch a guy flat footed that is aware of you that you are standing in front of. that is the point of catching people flat footed. You cannot just attack someone and declare they are flat footed. Just because the DM hasnt been taking your actions for combat doesnt mean the enemy isnt ready or hasnt been holding actions.

Regardless of your opinion on the matter, that is not how the game works. If two people are standing next to each other, and one pulls a knife and attacks the other, the other is flatfooted. Behind the scenes, it would look more like this:

:belkar: I pull a knife and stab Roy!
DM: OK, roll Bluff to see if Roy picks up on your hostile intent.
:belkar: crud, I got a 3.
:roy: 17 sense motive, belkar! I see it coming!
DM: Both of you roll initiative
:belkar: 17
:roy: 3
DM: Belkar, you go first. Drawing a dagger is a move action, so you can make one attack before Roy gets a chance to react. Roy knows you are about to attack, but hasn't reacted quickly enough to stop you, so he is flatfooted.

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-24, 01:49 AM
Skjaldbakka:
Your example is excellent. However, though it (probably) wouldn't happen with those characters, you could also have Roy first hand a note to the DM saying that he's readying an action to...er...grapple, say, if Belkar attempts to attack anyone. At that point, if Belkar picked it up, he could roll initiative for the chance to act before the action was readied, but if he didn't he'd have the action hanging over his head, and couldn't beat it with an initiative roll later.


Ulzgoroth, the example in the DMG you site is covering various types of surprise encounters, which, while directly tied to the main point of this thread, is not what I was talking about. We're just discussing whether you can be flat-footed if you're not surprised, and the answer is YES.
The example I called your attention to is a specific example of a non-surprise encounter, and the only such example I'm aware of. It clearly indicates that you need not be flat-footed at the beginning of actual combat.

Of course you can be flatfooted when you aren't surprised. I see no indication, anywhere, that you can be flatfooted as a result of initiative rolls when not surprised.

The problem is with when you're rolling initiative. The encounter starts, and initiative is (conceptually) rolled as soon as any member of either 'side' becomes 'aware' of the other. This is explicitly stated on the beginning of p22, which contains no qualifiers. If you choose not to roll initiative at that time because you don't want to actually account things in combat rounds, it doesn't mean that (for those aware) combat rounds aren't passing and thus flat-footedness going away. There will, in case of asymmetric awareness, be a surprise round immediately before general combat is joined, though not necessarily at first contact (and presumably those who are not aware can be flatfooted on the first round in which they are aware of combat).

If two people are going to spar or duel, they become aware of the impending combat more than a round before the first round in which they are permitted to actually attack each other, so neither is subject to flatfootedness on that account.

icefractal
2007-10-24, 02:04 AM
First off, regarding falling. There is really no consistent way to rule it except that falling doesn't require an action, and isn't subject to any normal movement limits. Otherwise, you have a situation like this:
Fighter: Full attacks the dragon, 5' step off an adjacent cliff. Remains floating there.
Wizard: Did you learn the magic of flight? :smallconfused:
Fighter: Nah, I just already used up all my actions.


Secondly, I think we need a better example, in order that less time be spent harping about the logicistic of orcs and ceilings.

Therefore, here's why the rule is wonky, in general terms: Let's say you have a party of mostly spellcasters. As such, you can do a lot more with just a standard action than warrior types can. It is then to your advantage to bring along a blindfolded, earmuffed hireling, who will be sure to be surprised by any combat.

Normal:
The Wizard-crew sees a warband coming along the road, and vice versa. Initiative is rolled. In the first round, the Wizards each cast a spell, and the warband charges (melee types) or full-attacks (archers).

With "Oblivious Lad":
The Wizard-crew sees a warband coming along the road, and vice versa ... except "oblivious lad" sees nothing and is surprised when he starts getting shot at. In the surprise round, the Wizards each cast a spell, and the warband moves up (melee types) or single-attacks (archers).

Quite the combat advantage from bringing along a someone you'd think would be a liability, eh?

Grynning
2007-10-24, 02:37 AM
Skjaldbakka:
The example I called your attention to is a specific example of a non-surprise encounter, and the only such example I'm aware of. It clearly indicates that you need not be flat-footed at the beginning of actual combat.

Of course you can be flatfooted when you aren't surprised. I see no indication, anywhere, that you can be flatfooted as a result of initiative rolls when not surprised.

This is incorrect, I'm sorry. The portion of the SRD, already quoted many, many, many times in this thread clearly states that at the start of combat, you are flat footed until your first action in the initiative order. I'm not going to bother re-hashing it, but since you gave book pages, here's some for you: 136-137 of the PHB, which is where this whole argument stems from. Read the part at the top of 137 where it has "Flat-footed" in bold. That's pretty rock-solid proof that your argument fails.

Grynning
2007-10-24, 02:41 AM
In response to icefractal, note I did not say falling took an action, I said LANDING and staying on your feet in a combat stance did. Jump off of something about 5 feet high, your stairs will work. Notice that when you land, the impact is fairly jarring and you have to spend a couple of seconds regaining your balance. Even with a tumble or balance check, that's a move action as far as I'm concerned.

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-24, 02:46 AM
Glory to Icefractal's example!


This is incorrect, I'm sorry. The portion of the SRD, already quoted many, many, many times in this thread clearly states that at the start of combat, you are flat footed until your first action in the initiative order. I'm not going to bother re-hashing it, but since you gave book pages, here's some for you: 136-137 of the PHB, which is where this whole argument stems from. Read the part at the top of 137 where it has "Flat-footed" in bold. That's pretty rock-solid proof that your argument fails.
That is not actually contradictory with my claim, as far as I can see. The key is the definition of "At the start of a battle". If you look at the DMG reference I provided (I'm not aware of any location in the SRD), it states that battle, or rather "an encounter" starts when any member of either side becomes aware of the other. In addition to providing some expansion elements, as I mentioned, to allow preparation before kicking off the surprise round if conditions (and the actions of those aware) allow.

Grynning
2007-10-24, 02:59 AM
It does say "At the start of a battle..." right after that, it says "(specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order)." This means that until you act in initiative order, you're flat-footed. Remember, this is about "Rules as Written," not "Rules as you think they should be."

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-24, 03:03 AM
It does say "At the start of a battle..." right after that, it says "(specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order)." This means that until you act in initiative order, you're flat-footed. Remember, this is about "Rules as Written," not "Rules as you think they should be."
I know. I am speaking of rules as written also. Also in core. Read the rules, as written, in the DMG and tell me what I'm missing if you like. Otherwise, my reading reconciles these two with little to no contradiction. Yours appears contrary not only to reason but to the written material in the DMG.

Grynning
2007-10-24, 06:17 AM
The section of the DMG that you are desperately clinging to is not actual rules text, it is a set of examples to help those who have read the rules in PHB adjudicate surprise rounds. Also, the third example specifically states the following (after going through the various actions the party and adversaries take to prepare):

"The DM records the passage of one round."

This means that combat has started, they just haven't actually been fighting yet. In this case, all the actions listed would have happened in some form of initiative order. Even if the DM hasn't actually called for an init roll yet, the characters are already acting in a combat round, therefore, no, they are not flat footed when actual "combat" starts. The problem here is that everyone is saying combat doesn't start until someone makes an attack or casts a spell. That's not true. Combat starts as soon as things move into rounds, and the DM having you roll initiative retroactively represents the time that people are acting in that round if they have already been taking actions. The DMG goes on to state that the DM only calls for an init roll when the order of action becomes important; that's fine to do, but you have to realize that if combat rounds have started, and you haven't done anything yet, you are, unquestionably, flat-footed as stated by RAW.

The second example (Both sides aware at the same time) also helps to clarify things a bit more. It states that "All are equally surprised and equally flat footed. Initiative is rolled, reflecting that those characters with better reflexes act quicker in such situations." Note that even though everyone is "surprised", there is no surprise round because no one has an advantage. This means that you have the most basic form of combat as outlined in the PHB: Init rolls, highest goes first (thus being the first person not flat-footed) and goes down the line. Everyone is flat-footed until they act. This would apply in any situation where two sides become aware of one another (regardless of how long they may be aware) but do not actually start combat rounds until hostilities escalate (i.e. my example of getting punched in the face IRL). You can be fully aware of a hostile presence for quite some time before things go into combat rounds, which makes you flat-footed until you take your first combat action. If you do ANYTHING that would start combat (and thus "de-flat-foot" you as many posters have been arguing you can do), that means you are starting combat, and when the DM calls for that init roll, whatever you declared happens on that count.

Final Edit: I know it took me a long time to respond, I had a pressing engagement at the Waffle House. By the way, while I was there we discussed this thread, and two gamers who I have never played with or DM'ed for both backed me up on this. I know that doesn't have a lot of weight for the interweb argument, but it validated me enough to post one last diatribe explaining why I believe my interpretation of the rules is "most correct."

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-24, 06:31 AM
:smallconfused:
So, I don't think I disagree with anything in your post except the attempt to depreciate text expanding and improving pre-existing rules (and no, it isn't just examples...it contains specific rules, and guidelines for the use of the existing rules).

But, um, didn't I say the same thing? Three posts back of your telling me I've got it wrong? When you aren't surprised, as in that example, combat rounds have started without hostilities, and thus when hostilities do start there is no flat-footedness. The only way for combat rounds not to have started before hostilities is if you are surprised by them.

EDIT:
Well, now I disagree plenty...
Initiative is rolled (theoretically, actual dice use may vary) when the opponents become aware of each other. If you are talking about RAW, you cannot ignore the statement of when an encounter begins at the top of p22. There is no meaning to an action starting combat. No rule anywhere differentiates a combat action from a non-combat action or characterizes what actions might begin combat. Combat is started by awareness, not by actions.

No one is likely to be either surprised or flatfooted by an opposing duelist drawing their weapon on the mark, a punch thrown at the culmination of an exchange of insults, or an arrow from the archer who has been covering you for the past minutes.

Of course there was a point at which, assuming you became aware of one another at the same time, an initiative roll meant one of you acted while the other was flatfooted. That window of opportunity is gone a round after mutual discovery, and doesn't get brought back by steel finally coming out. You may, in terms of actual dice, not roll d20+init mod until somebody tries to shoot somebody else, but unless awareness was lacking that initiative already applied well before being rolled.

Dullyanna
2007-10-24, 06:51 AM
It's as simple as this: Right after initiative is rolled, the people who rolled lower, and thus get their turns later, are counted as flat-footed until their turn comes, whether there is a surprise round or not. If there is a surprise round, the combatants who aren't surprised (On both sides) get to roll for initiative and get one free action and one standard action. Oh, and dropping from the ceiling is a free action. If combat started with both sides sixty meters apart, and without long range attacks, then everybody would most likely get a turn before they reach eachother and attacks are made, meaning everybody is "prepared" RAW-wise, and thus nobody is flat-footed due to initiative. That quote I pulled up was straight out of the SRD, by the way. And as for the duel: If "Inititiative" has been rolled (I.e. the referee or whatever gves the signal for the fight to begin) and both combatant wait for the other to make a move(In other words, delays their turn) then yes, nobody is flat-footed, because they both have taken an action on their respective turns.

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-24, 07:13 AM
Surprise does not imply surprise round. The normal expectation is that combat starts when two parties meet in the dark, and are both surprised. A surprise round normally results only when either some people aren't surprised (and thus get a surprise round on the people who are), or when some people are surprised but others are completely unaware.

There's also no rule about one free action. The definition of free actions is that you can have any number of them, limited only by the DM's whim.

In a duel, you had a chance to act before the signal was given. You didn't take it because doing so would violate the terms of the duel, but there wasn't anything mechanically keeping you from drawing and attacking before that point.

EDIT: It occurs to me that this line of discussion is really a thread hijack. Icefractal gave a nice example of the point that the OP was actually talking about... On the topic of that, then.

Well, they can partial charge, but yep. That's ugly.:smallfrown:

Dullyanna
2007-10-24, 07:52 AM
@Ulzgoroth:There is one relevant rule involving free actions: You can take them during surprise rounds, along with a standard action. I probably had bad wording with that part.

Officially, combat starts when the order of turns is determined by initiative rolls. Right after initiative is rolled, each person who get their turn hasone turn to capitalize on the fact that those who haven't had a chance to act (due to lower initiative rolls) are flat-footed until their turn starts.

It's Happy Fun Scenario Time!

Scenario A: An orc ranger is stalking a goblin war part. Unfortunately, he's a moron, so a few of the goblins take notice of him. Initiative has now been rolled. Nobody takes offensive action (Including the orc), and soon all of the gobbos are made aware of the orc. By marching onward, they're either delaying their turn (So they can act when something happens), or have readied their bows for when the orc does something stupid (Again) Another possibility is that one of the goblin archers, having rolled high for his initiative, takes his turn to fire at the orc, who isn't flatfooted because he's already acted when it was his turn.

Scenario B: In the case of combat following dialogue, it's really the DM's call when to roll initiative. Logically, he would do it when it's clear to the players (And their characters) that there are hostile intentions on the other side. As far as I know, DM's don't usually roll initiative at the start of every dialogue (Irregardless of whether a fight was going to start or not). So when one side basically declares that they're going to start combat (I.e. the barbarian say:"I rage and punch the bastard"), initiative is rolled to determine who goes first. That doesn't necessarily mean the raging barbarian goes first.

Grynning
2007-10-24, 08:58 AM
The above poster makes some good points. Urzgoloth (sorry if I mispelled it) the problem I have with the way you are interpreting the rules is that it basically sets up a scenario where players can always word-trick their way out of being caught flat footed. This is not how the rules are supposed to work, and there is a reason you are flat-footed until you act, as I have said time and time again.

Edit: You are correct that an initiative roll can represent something that happened in the past. I said that in my first post on this thread. However, the confusion here arises from A) when combat starts and B) when you get to "act" thereby removing your flat-footed status.

All of the examples which you give hinge upon people delaying their action in some way or another before fighting starts. I don't know how much clearer I can be, but if that happens it's PART OF A COMBAT ROUND. Initiative order wins. In your duel example, consider this. Two guys with rapiers face one another. They both have weapons drawn, and are obviously mentally prepared to fight. Now, if they both go en guard, they are beginning combat, and then delaying until the signal is given (thus avoiding being flat footed). However, if one guy decides to jump the signal (dishonorable, but still allowable in a duel, after all, it's a fight to the death, the dead guy still loses even if the winner cheats) and attacks while his opponent is still in the process of getting ready, if he wins initiative, he gets the guy flat-footed. This is closer to what happens in "real" combats. Yes, both people are aware. No, there is not a surprise round. But the first person to act still catches the ones who haven't acted flat footed. This is one of the major advantages of going first, ask anyone who plays a rogue or DM's for rogue players and you'll hear the same thing: if the rogue goes before you, he sneak attacks you in the first round even if you can see him and he's right in front of you. It's because of the flat-footed rule, which I still don't understand why you're disputing it. Also, if the rules work the way you say they do, why even have uncanny dodge? It becomes much less valuable if it only functions when you're unaware of your opponent beforehand.

Essentially, you're saying that "awareness" = "combat". Simply not true. Awareness = Encounter. Encounters can be resolved any number of ways, combat is one of them, and it's a separate set of rules. Combat happens during an encounter. So just because an encounter has started, you are not in combat rounds taking combat actions. Until you are, you can't just say your character is ready for combat when it happens.

Edit: Removed a portion of my post here because it was petty and not really applicable to the discussion. I apologize, sleep deprivation makes me mean.

Final Edit: Just in case that last wall of text was confusing (I'm really tired), here is the actual definition of the flat-footed state from the rules:
"Especially vulnerable to attacks at the beginning of combat. Characters are flat-footed until their first turns in the initiative cycle. A flat-footed character loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity."

Fairly black-and-white. Have not acted in initiative count = flat-footed. Notice it does not say "you are flat-footed until you could have maybe at some point in the past done something you could consider part of the combat"
I mean, if I'm a character (without uncanny dodge of course), I could, in theory, randomly attack someone at any time during an encounter (i.e. "Could have taken a combat action" as you say). This doesn't mean I'm not flat-footed when someone does it to me.

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-24, 10:27 AM
Grynning:
I have no idea where you get that idea about word tricks. You can't be prepared for a threat you aren't aware of. If you are aware of the threat more than momentarily before it manifests, there is no reason by logic or rules to be flat-footed.

In theory I suppose you could regard every person you ever meet as a threat to your life and therefore never be exposed to a 'social' surprise attack. I don't see how that's a problem...if you want to treat a trip to the grocery store like a SWAT mission, you can. The drawbacks seem obvious, but specifically your behavior ought to be fairly obvious to those around, and more than a little exhausting if you spend much time around people.

You keep hammering out the "it's PART OF A COMBAT ROUND" as if this is something I should be unaware of. I don't know how to be more clear: I thought that was my point. I am not and never have been trying to say that it's impossible to ever get people flat-footed in the opening round by winning initiative. Of course it is, any time there's an encounter. You just have to strike in or before the first round in which your target identifies you as a threat.

Jumping the gun on the duel, there might be a surprise round. If your target was trusting you to abide by the rules, and you were planning all along to get the drop on them (and they didn't pick up on it), I could see getting a surprise round. However, it's entirely a matter of outlook. If they consider you a back-stabbing, knife-throwing assassin they'll be as ready to fight you when they come in the door as when they actually are across the ring from you. To get them flatfooted, you'd have to strike as soon as they set eyes on you.

How do you define the start of combat? Don't say rolling initiative...there has to be something that tells you when to roll initiative. Nor can it be violence, since there's no requirement that anyone attempt to harm anyone else in the first round of combat. Reading the DMG, awareness is the only possible answer I can come up with. What do you use?

Officially, combat starts when the order of turns is determined by initiative rolls. Right after initiative is rolled, each person who get their turn hasone turn to capitalize on the fact that those who haven't had a chance to act (due to lower initiative rolls) are flat-footed until their turn starts.
I would say you're inverting cause and effect here (you roll initiative because combat starts), but generally agreed.

I'm happy with your examples too. Though I'd note that in A, when the Orc first came across the war party he might have been subject to a flat-footed attack if one of the goblins spotted him at the same time he spotted them and won initiative. Once he's trailing them and everyone's aware of each other, as you say neither side can achieve flat-footedness regardless of initiative.

Example B seems like simple truth. Instead of using spot and listen to see the combat coming, characters would use Sense Motive and Yes, He Did Insult Your Mother:smallwink: if any subtlety was involved. Deciding to take initiative (non-technically speaking) by hauling off and punching the other guy does have the advantage of pretty well ensuring that if a surprise round occurs you get to act in it, and depending on circumstances might create one, but doesn't help you win initiative.

Goumindong
2007-10-24, 11:35 AM
Regardless of your opinion on the matter, that is not how the game works. If two people are standing next to each other, and one pulls a knife and attacks the other, the other is flatfooted. Behind the scenes, it would look more like this:

:belkar: I pull a knife and stab Roy!
DM: OK, roll Bluff to see if Roy picks up on your hostile intent.
:belkar: crud, I got a 3.
:roy: 17 sense motive, belkar! I see it coming!
DM: Both of you roll initiative
:belkar: 17
:roy: 3
DM: Belkar, you go first. Drawing a dagger is a move action, so you can make one attack before Roy gets a chance to react. Roy knows you are about to attack, but hasn't reacted quickly enough to stop you, so he is flatfooted.

Roy has not had 6 seconds between when he became aware and when the attack was made. Such this follows the rules perfectly.

Goumindong
2007-10-24, 11:44 AM
All of the examples which you give hinge upon people delaying their action in some way or another before fighting starts. I don't know how much clearer I can be, but if that happens it's PART OF A COMBAT ROUND. Initiative order wins. In your duel example, consider this. Two guys with rapiers face one another. They both have weapons drawn, and are obviously mentally prepared to fight. Now, if they both go en guard, they are beginning combat, and then delaying until the signal is given (thus avoiding being flat footed). However, if one guy decides to jump the signal (dishonorable, but still allowable in a duel, after all, it's a fight to the death, the dead guy still loses even if the winner cheats) and attacks while his opponent is still in the process of getting ready, if he wins initiative, he gets the guy flat-footed. This is closer to what happens in "real" combats. Yes, both people are aware. No, there is not a surprise round. But the first person to act still catches the ones who haven't acted flat footed. This is one of the major advantages of going first, ask anyone who plays a rogue or DM's for rogue players and you'll hear the same thing: if the rogue goes before you, he sneak attacks you in the first round even if you can see him and he's right in front of you. It's because of the flat-footed rule, which I still don't understand why you're disputing it. Also, if the rules work the way you say they do, why even have uncanny dodge? It becomes much less valuable if it only functions when you're unaware of your opponent beforehand.

Yea, you are dead wrong here. Init has been rolled, combat actions have been taken, neither combatant is flat footed. Hell you directly contradict yourself when you say that both combat has started and rounds have passed AND THEN say the guy is flat footed. This set of events is by RAW and RAI impossible.

Also, its called uncanny dodge because its uncanny, not because its the normal actions you would expect from being attacked by a guy you are aware of for plenty of time. That is called "Normal dodge"

Goumindong
2007-10-24, 11:59 AM
Essentially, you're saying that "awareness" = "combat". Simply not true. Awareness = Encounter. Encounters can be resolved any number of ways, combat is one of them, and it's a separate set of rules. Combat happens during an encounter. So just because an encounter has started, you are not in combat rounds taking combat actions. Until you are, you can't just say your character is ready for combat when it happens.

In which case it is then impossible to gain a surprise round on someone who is aware of your presense regardless of your actions to ensure that. This is false.

E.G.

Rogue walks up to target, smiles and asks where the nearest coffee shop is. He sleight of hand draws a dagger and conceals it. Spot is rolled versus sleight of hand. The target loses.

Rogue attacks! Surprise!

Roll init-
Surprise Round:
Rogue
No One

Regular round:
Init Winner
Init Loser

The guy was standing right in front of his face, but not aware. Surprise round.

Any time you are aware you can delcare yourself ready for combat. You might want to make a bluff, or opposed BAB/sense motive check to determine whether or not the other guy notices and so is able to take action, but its irrelevent.

E.G.

Rogue walks up to target. Target has reason to believe that someone wants to kill him and so takes a full defensive action as the rogue approaches. Target=aware, Rogue=not aware.

just like the rogue was aware before and the target not aware...

Now, lets say the rogue notices and attacks, he wins init, is the other guy flat footed? This is where it gets tricky, because he hasnt had a regular turn, but he has taken an action in the surprise round that necessitates him being ready.

Mabye his surprise round was a hold action and then after the next round where the rogue walked up he takes the full defensive action.

Then by raw the rogue enters combat as a new combatant at the end of the initiative order

In fact, going by THOSE rules where we have one guy prepared for combat and taking defensive actions the rogue always goes last.

but, since the target is not attacking, the rogue when he goes gets a full round. In essense declaring himself to go first. Unfortunatly the guy is not flat footed, he is ready, he has taken action.

Frosty
2007-10-24, 02:21 PM
He may be cautious, but he doesn't know that the Rogue is the one who'll attack, unless you're saying that the target specifically takes a defensive action as he sees someone suspicious walk up to him.

Let's have a more modern example. You've got a man walking a crowded street who has been advised that there's a good hcance he'll be the target of an assassination attempt. He looks around nervously, each turn actively making Spot checks to try to see anything unusual. An assassin with a sniper rifle fires from 1000 feet away. Is the target Flat-footed? I think so. He doesn't know where the attack will come from, so he can't use his agility to avoid the attack. He was ready and aware of dangers, but he could not react to them.

Similarly, if an assassin who is dressed like everyone else, who blends in, will probably have an easy time getting the target flat-footed on the first melee attack as well unless the target can somehow identify that target as a threat and specifically take measures to defend against the assassin. I mean, you can't have a defensive stance against EVERYONE on the street. If you're facing the other way to defend against innocent bystander #52, you might be exposed to the Assassin's attacks.

Justin_Bacon
2007-10-24, 02:23 PM
The rules for how to handle the beginning of combat, awareness, surprise, initiative order, and flat-footedness are some of the sloppiest and most poorly written rules I've ever seen in an RPG.

In an effort to provide a better baseline for this discussion, I'm going to go through the muddled mess of the DMG and try to pull out all the actual rules for this scenario.

Starting Combat
Combat can start in one of three scenarios:

Scenario 1. Only one side is aware of the other.
Scenario 2. Both sides become aware of the other at the same time.
Scenario 3. Some, but not all, creatures on one or both sides become aware of the other side.

Determining Awareness: Use sight ranges, Spot checks, Listen checks, and so on to determine when combatants become aware of each other.

(This is one of the places where the rules are vague: A multitude of sins can be covered by the phrase "and so on". I would argue that the phrase is specifically there in order to allow for things like Mexican stand-offs, unexpected assaults during social events, and the like. If you walk up to a guy with a big smile on your face and then punch him in the gut, he may be aware of your presence but he is not aware of the combat. I would argue that a Sense Motive check, rather than a Spot check, is the appropriate way to determine awareness in this scenario.)

Preparing for Combat: If one side is unaware of the other, the side that is aware may make preparations before combat begins. The DM may track this time in rounds to determine how much the aware side can accomplish before the unaware combatants become aware of them. If the unaware side becomes aware, combat begins normally. If the unaware side remains unaware, the aware combatants still gain a surprise round (see below).

(So when, exactly, does combat start? Basically, there are four scenarios: (1) If both sides are aware, combat starts immediately without a surprise round. (2) If only some creatures on both sides are aware, combat starts immediately with a surprise round for the aware creatures. (3) If one side is completely unaware, then the aware side can choose when to start combat. And they can either choose to start it with a surprise round or they can all delay their actions and start it with a normal round in which they all get to go first. (4) If one side is completely unaware and only some creatures on the other side are aware, then the aware creatures make the choice of when to start combat (and they can wait to start combat while they make other creatures on their side aware).)

Surprise Round: If only some creatures are aware at the beginning of combat, the aware creatures roll initiative and can take a single standard action during the surprise round. The unaware combatants are considered flat-footed during the surprise round. Once the surprise round is completed, everyone else rolls initiative and combat continues normally.

(Couple of notes here: First, the rule that unaware combatants don't roll initiative until after the surprise round is completed is an unnecessary rule. You can roll initiative for everyone at once and it won't make the slightest difference in how combat plays out. In fact, I roll initiative for the PCs at the end of combat and use those initiative results for the next combat -- this speeds up the beginning of combat, instead of immediately deflating tension by having everyone roll their initiatives.

Similarly, the rule that initiative is rolled at a different time depending on whether the two sides can immediately interact with each other or not -- the only distinction drawn between these scenarios -- is a waste of paper.

Second, the rules on being flat-footed are contradictory. The rules for the flat-footed condition in the DMG reads "a character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed". Following this rule, once a character has taken an action during the surprise round they are no longer flat-footed.

But the PHB says you're flat-footed "before your first regular turn in the initiative order", which means that EVERYONE is flat-footed during the surprise round.

According to the rules for errata, the PHB rule supercedes the DMG rule in this respect. But, of course, the PHB rule doesn't make a lick of sense. It also makes it so that the last person to take action in the surprise round is highly motivated to simply delay so that they can take the first action in the regular round of combat -- a decision which only makes sense at a metagame level.

This also points out another disparity in the rules: If the PCs completely surprise another group, they CAN'T delay their actions into regular combat because they haven't rolled initiative yet. But if one of their opponents is aware of them and can take an action during the surprise round, they can now delay their actions and act first in the regular combat. So, literally, you are MORE capable of taking a full round action before your opponents do if one of your opponents is capable of shouting a warning to their friends.)

Newcomers - Aware: If new combatants join the combat, and they are aware of the combat when they join it, they take their actions before everyone else in the round. The order in which they take their actions is determined by their Dexterity scores.

(This is a bad rule. The reasons for having them act first in the round make sense -- they can, after all, choose the moment when they enter combat if they're aware of it. But the order in which they take those actions should either be determined by opposed initiative checks or, failing that, their initiative bonuses. Bypassing both of those mechanics and going straight to their Dexterity scores doesn't make any sense.)

Newcomers - Unaware: If new combatants join the combat,and they are unaware of the combat when they join it (e.g., opening a door and unexpectedly finding people fighting behind it), they roll initiative checks and take their actions normally during the initiative sequence.

(I would argue that these rules should be scrapped entirely. The proper way to handle this is for ALL new combatants to roll initiative checks normally. (With a "new combatant" being defined as either someone who is aware of the combat or someone who the other combatants are aware of.) New combatants who are unaware, however, cannot take any action during the first round.

This rule neatly models all scenarios: When new combatants and old combatants become aware of each other at the same time, their ability to react to each other depends on their initiative checks. When new combatants are aware of the combat before they join it, they can choose when to join in at a time of their choosing (and will not be flat-footed when they do). And when the existing combatants become aware of the new combatants before the new combatants become aware of them, they have a chance to react to them before the new combatants can take an action against them.)

Simultaneous Action: The DM can attempt to cope with the consequences of simultaneous action in a completely ad hoc fashion if it seems appropriate (e.g., having a trap triggered by a character during the round not take effect until the end of the round).

And that's it. My snide comments aside, there are only about seven paragraphs worth of actual rules on this topic -- and most of them could be eliminated if you simply made some smarter design choices.

I don't know if this helped anybody in anyway, but it certainly helped me. :smallsmile:

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

Justin_Bacon
2007-10-24, 02:37 PM
In response to icefractal, note I did not say falling took an action, I said LANDING and staying on your feet in a combat stance did. Jump off of something about 5 feet high, your stairs will work. Notice that when you land, the impact is fairly jarring and you have to spend a couple of seconds regaining your balance. Even with a tumble or balance check, that's a move action as far as I'm concerned.

By RAW, the Tumble check for reducing falling damage is made as an instant reaction. As such, it does not take any action.

Of course, this does not necessarily say anything about "landing on your feet".

But, by the same token, according to the RAW, falling doesn't result in you becoming prone: You ALWAYS lands on your feet. (Unless you were already prone when you fell.)

Much like the complete lack of rules for handling sleeping (and the lack thereof), this is a rather painful oversight in the rules. There are many ways to solve it:

(1) You can roll the "do they land on their feet?" question into the Tumble check to reduce damage. But Tumble is a trained-only skill. So is it okay for this to be a non-trained use of the skill? And what about the scenario where you intentionally jump down?

(2) If you take damage from a fall, you must make a Reflex save to stay on your feet (DC = damage taken; DC = 15?).

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

Indon
2007-10-24, 02:55 PM
First off, regarding falling. There is really no consistent way to rule it except that falling doesn't require an action, and isn't subject to any normal movement limits. Otherwise, you have a situation like this:
Fighter: Full attacks the dragon, 5' step off an adjacent cliff. Remains floating there.
Wizard: Did you learn the magic of flight? :smallconfused:
Fighter: Nah, I just already used up all my actions.


I'd say that, based loosely on the rules for jumping, falling movement should be a non-action that subtracts from the amount of movement you can make for that round.

Thus:

-The Fighter that makes a full attack then 5-foot steps off of a cliff falls 60 feet. Presumably, he finished attacking before he fell, and from there started to plummet. Luckily, the round is not _strictly_ 6 seconds, so we could do this.

-The Fighter that moves 60 feet to move off of a cliff still falls 60 feet.

-The Fighter who lands after falling 60 feet, however, can not move that round because he spent most of his round falling 60 feet (and presumably recovering afterwards).

The jump rules are actually kinda strange, come to think of it.

Edit: I'm not even sure I'm getting it right anymore... hmm.

Grynning
2007-10-24, 04:09 PM
Ok, at this point both Guom and Ulzgoroth are not making any sense anymore. Ulz, you admit in your last post that the only way your philosophy works is if your character treats every encounter as combat (trip to the grocery store, etc.) but they you go on to say that you're still right and I just have a warped idea of when combat starts?
Then Guom puts up a quote that was originally posted to refute his interpretation of the rules...stunning (and btw, the quote you put up entirely agrees with my argument)
Ok. Let me spell this out as easily as I can. Here is, by RAW, the way this whole Init-flat-footed-surprise crap works:

1. Two groups of characters are in the same general vicinity. This is the start of an encounter.

NOTE: The rules do distinguish between "Encounters" and combat. In fact, the DMG has a section on assigning XP for encounters that don't end in combat, and every recent published adventure I've seen has "roleplaying" encounters. Obviously, you can have an Encounter without combat. Just to make sure this is established, going to the grocery store is NOT a combat encounter (unless you're having a really strange day).

2. Determine awareness. Roll listen, spots, see if spells go off, whatever. Awareness just means: "Do they know each other exists?" at this point. Now, if one group is going to immediately attack the other if they become aware (ex: Hungry zombies become aware of humans) then obviously, combat could begin at this stage, because as soon as one side becomes aware, they will begin taking combat actions.
HOWEVER: Awareness does not equal an initiative roll. It is fairly clear that the section of the DMG that Urz keeps quoting is devoted to combat encounters only (in fact, it is in the "Combat" subsection). The major point of difference between myself and the other 2 posters is that they seem to believe the initiative should always be rolled here, but if the DM doesn't ask for it, you can say "My character is in combat right now!" and avoid being flat footed. This is not how it works, people. If you're the one who starts combat, then you are telling the DM you want to move into rounds and roll init. The DM, however, would be within their rights to tell you, "Dude, combat hasn't started. You're walking up to a group of orphans begging on the street." Or something like that. In that case, combat does not begin. Unless you're "role-playing" as someone who believes they're going to get in fight with everyone they meet, your character is not going to bristle up and get into combat posture as soon as you see some NPC's. Can you imagine having to play out every encounter in 6-second rounds? It would suck. Ok, back to my steps now, sorry.

3. If characters are hostile, the DM determines, based on awareness, whether anyone is surprised. If all are surprised, no surprise round. Proceed to 4. If none are surprised, no surprise round, also, proceed to 4. If some are surprised and some aren't, there is a surprise round.
If there is a surprise round, those who are not surprised roll initiative against one another. High roll goes first. Note that even in a surprise round, you are still flat-footed until you act. So, person who wins init in surprise round is the first person not flat-footed.

4. Regular round begins. Those who did not roll init in the surprise round roll it here. Now everyone has an init roll, and they act in initiative order. At no point does anyone stop being flat-footed until they act, unless they have uncanny dodge. This is RAW, that's all there is to it. No "saying you were in combat before there even was a combat" to get out of being flat-footed. You have no dex bonus, no AoO's, until you get your turn in the combat. I'm sorry if you can't accept this, but I assure you that this is exactly how the rules work.

By the way, in Guom's example, you have a character taking a "full-defensive" action as somewhat walks up to him. If he does that, you've started combat. Also, note that taking a full defensive action means devoting yourself to bobbing, weaving, dodging, etc. You can't do it out of combat, and if you do that on the street, it means you suddenly stop walking and start circling the guy in a defensive posture (probably humming the "Amok Time" music while you do it) and people will most likely stare. Granted, it may save you from the stab, but you'll look like a wacko.
If you want to casually keep walking toward the guy, you're leaving yourself in a vulnerable stance for the sake of subterfuge. Even if you know someone might attack you, you can't just "be ready" for a knife attack....unless you have, I don't know, some kind of uncanny ability to dodge or block things...some kind of uncanny...dodge...

If you feel it's unrealistic for someone to be flat footed against an attack they see coming, here's your solution: house-rule it. Don't say it's RAW, because it's not. I think someone has that sig'ed on here, and they're right.

ColdBrew
2007-10-24, 04:54 PM
I fully agree with Guom, as it stands, and I think part of the confusion is a bit of muddled language he keeps using. Basically, if two gunfighters are staring at each other down a dusty street, combat has begun. By RAW initiative should have already been rolled as soon as one sees the other as a threat, which would be at the official start of the duel if they consider each other honorable men. They're taking turns holding their actions for dramatic effect, so nothing particularly "combative" is happening, but enemies are aware of each other so combat it is. Now, as players, we'd save the physical action of rolling initiative for when we actually need to know the result, because it's just more practical that way. That's what Guom meant when he kept saying combat starts, but we don't roll initiative until a few rounds in when interesting things happen, and also when he said we've been doing initiative wrong.

He wasn't saying the RAW was to roll initiative after combat begins. He was saying players do it that way because we don't need to be counting off initiative until people start actively attacking each other or it becomes necessary for practical reasons. The end result is the same whether you roll initiative as soon as enemies become aware of each other as threats or whether you wait until round time starts to matter. By RAW you'd do it the first way; it's just easier to do it the second. As long as you keep in mind that rounds have already passed before players actually toss the initiative dice, there's no conflict.

Justin_Bacon
2007-10-24, 04:55 PM
I'd say that, based loosely on the rules for jumping, falling movement should be a non-action that subtracts from the amount of movement you can make for that round.

This assumes that the character can move as fast as they would fall (which is probably not a great assumption).

Let's see if I've got the right file laying around here... Here we go. The rules for freefalling from the forthcoming Rule Supplement 2: Flight from Dream Machine Productions (http://www.thealexandrian.net/dreammachine/index.html):



FREEFALL
A character or object in freefall drops straight down towards the ground. During the first round of a freefall, a character or object immediately drops 150 feet. If a character begins their turn in freefall, they immediately continue their fall. The distance fallen each round increases by 150 feet for each round of freefall to a maximum of 1000 feet per round.

Characters in Freefall: While in a freefall, a character loses their Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and can only attempt a single standard action each round. A combatant attempting to use an item in freefall must make a Dexterity or Strength check (character’s choice, DC 15) to avoid dropping the item. Spellcasting is possible in a freefall, but requires a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell level).

UNCONTROLLED FREEFALL
Any non-flying character falling is in an uncontrolled freefall. A flying character enters an uncontrolled freefall if they stall or are rendered incapacitated. As a standard action, a flying character can attempt to recover from an uncontrolled freefall and resume normal flight by making a Fly check (DC 25). If the check is successful, the flyer stops freefalling and can fly normally in any direction.

Alternatively, a flying character can turn an uncontrolled freefall into a controlled freefall (see below) as a standard action by making a Fly check (DC 15). The flying character can then recover from the controlled freefall normally on their next turn.

CONTROLLED FREEFALL
A flying character can voluntarily enter a freefall as a free action in order to quickly lose altitude by making a Fly check (DC 5). If the check fails, the character enters an uncontrolled freefall instead.

As a move action, a flyer can attempt to recover from a controlled freefall and resume normal flight by making a Fly check (DC 15). If the check is successful, the flyer stops freefalling and can fly normally in any direction.

ACCELERATED FREEFALL
A flying combatant in a controlled freefall can double the distance they fall each round by making a Fly check (DC 15) as a move action. If the check fails, the combatant simply maintains a controlled freefall.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

Grynning
2007-10-24, 05:05 PM
ColdBrew - While I tend to agree that it is possible for a combat to begin "before it begins" in some cases, unfortunately, this can lead to some very bad situations when it comes to role-playing. Whose call is it if combat has begun and whether you've already been in rounds or not? It's the DM's. The DM says, ok, things are escalating, time for an initiative roll. Players throw dice. The winner of that roll is "ahead of the game." They move faster than everyone else, their action happens first. From the way the rules are written, if they attack at that point, they catch their opponent flat-footed. That's what happens.
If combat had already begun, you would have to track rounds retroactively - say, ok, at this point I was circling around making threatening motions and calling the guy a varmint, and that was my action in round 1, and that's why I'm not flat-footed...see why I have a problem with this?
The whole debate over "when" the initiative roll happens (for the characters, I mean, not dice on table) is somewhat moot at this point. While I agree that the init. roll is not necessarily taking place simultaneously with the beginning of combat, going by the RULES (not narrative), until you come up in that order, you are flat-footed, unless you have uncanny dodge.

Dullyanna
2007-10-24, 05:15 PM
I think Grynning has this covered pretty well by now. But here's a quote from the SRD, just for the hell of it.
Initiative Checks

At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check.

Chronos
2007-10-24, 05:15 PM
EDIT: It occurs to me that this line of discussion is really a thread hijack. Icefractal gave a nice example of the point that the OP was actually talking about... On the topic of that, then.Thank you, Ulzgoroth. The point I'm making just depends on there existing some situation where it's possible for some combatants being surprised, and for full-round actions to be valuable for one side.

That said, if the rest of you guys want to debate just exactly how someone can be surprised, and what all else happens at the start of combat, that's OK, too. Just count me out of that debate, as it's gotten boring for me.

Grynning
2007-10-24, 05:17 PM
On the subject of falling, I do agree that the rules are nebulous on this point. In the dropping onto the table situation, without establishing how far the fall is, or without having a balance DC for staying on your feet on a table after you drop onto it, it's hard to say whether you would use an action. It would come down to a pure DM call, if it was mine, I would say it would use your surprise round action.

Chronos, I believe that the surprise rules clearly give the advantage if you surprise any of your foes. As I said in my construction of the combat a few pages back (in the midst of my feud over the FF rules), if any of your foes are surprised when you drop, even if some of them aren't, when you Whirlwind them you still kill the ones who haven't acted in the surprise round, giving you a much better chance.

I disagree with your assessment that if no-one is surprised that the rogue can still kill everyone, but that comes down to whether the table drop is an action (therefore limiting the rogue to one attack on the round he drops) or a non-action (allowing him to WW the same round). As I said, IMO it's an action, therefore he can't drop and WW in the same round, so he has to have the surprise round to pull it off.

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-24, 05:24 PM
Ok, at this point both Guom and Ulzgoroth are not making any sense anymore. Ulz, you admit in your last post that the only way your philosophy works is if your character treats every encounter as combat (trip to the grocery store, etc.) but they you go on to say that you're still right and I just have a warped idea of when combat starts?
I didn't say it only worked if you treated every encounter as combat. I said that there was no reason whatsoever for it to be impossible to treat every encounter as combat. These statements are very different.

As for your repeated rant about being able to negate any (presumably social) surprise attack by claiming to be in combat...how? Retroactively declaring your paranoia after being asked to roll initiative? Then the problem is allowing retro-actions. If you declare that you are starting combat as soon as you see someone, of course they have the opportunity to get you flatfooted in the turn in which that declaration goes into effect if their initiative is better.

If you feel it's unrealistic for someone to be flat footed against an attack they see coming, here's your solution: house-rule it. Don't say it's RAW, because it's not. I think someone has that sig'ed on here, and they're right.
This is just insulting. I am not attempting to house-rule (I probably would if the RAW said what you think they do, but I'd concede your correctness on RAW). I am making a single interpretation, of when 'battle' is defined as starting. This is not defined in either of the two book references. Thus you are also interpreting its meaning unless you have a reference that you aren't sharing. Unfortunately you seem unwilling you specify your interpretation, which makes it hard to say anything beyond 'I didn't say that!'.

When does battle start, for you?


If combat had already begun, you would have to track rounds retroactively - say, ok, at this point I was circling around making threatening motions and calling the guy a varmint, and that was my action in round 1, and that's why I'm not flat-footed...see why I have a problem with this?
Nope. Presumably the other guy had an action in that hypothetical round too, which could (if he'd won initiative) have been used to get you flat-footed. Probably you did not get a surprise round in which to start making threatening motions. So the only reason you weren't still subject to flat-footedness from losing initiative is because you are getting away with retroactively changing your action (from 'call the guy a varmint' to 'initiate combat and call the guy a varmint') without allowing the NPC to do the same.

Correctly, the NPC would have had a chance to recognize your initiation of combat and try to beat your initiative and get the drop on you.

The whole debate over "when" the initiative roll happens (for the characters, I mean, not dice on table) is somewhat moot at this point. While I agree that the init. roll is not necessarily taking place simultaneously with the beginning of combat, going by the RULES (not narrative), until you come up in that order, you are flat-footed, unless you have uncanny dodge.
Are you saying that in Example: Both Aware but Cannot Interact Immediately they mistakenly did not note that in the round where the door is kicked in everyone is flat-footed until their action? I thought we were in agreement that no one was flatfooted at that point. Both sides got over flat-footedness in the round when the adventurers hear the orcs and the orc spots them (and both recognize the other side as threats, being orcs and adventurers meeting in a stereotyped dungeon). They didn't bother about initiative order because it didn't yet matter, but that is merely a matter of convenience. They were officially on initiative and acting in initiative order and combat rounds, but skipped the overhead.

Grynning
2007-10-24, 06:46 PM
Regarding the last point, I indicated earlier that in that example from the DMG, it specifies that the DM is already tracking combat rounds. So, no, when the door is kicked in, no-one is flat footed, because a round has already passed where everyone took an action (Rogue drinks a potion, Cleric casts a spell, etc.).
Standing around waiting for a fight to start, though, is not an action unless you have already started combat and are delaying. Basically, Duom was trying to say that you can justify not being flat-footed simply by virtue of the fact that you *could* have started combat already. The point is, you didn't. Therefore, when it starts, you are flat footed.

Also, note that the rules say nothing about "hypothetical" rounds. You're either in combat rounds (6 second blocks of time) or you're not (RP time). Now, they can overlap, but my point is that you do not lose the flat-footed condition until you DO something in a tracked combat round. The rules are quite clear on that point. Now, doing something can include delaying or holding an action, but you have to be in the initiative count to do that. You can't just start doing it anytime you want before combat starts, otherwise every (non-surprise) combat would begin with readied actions, which they clearly don't.

Goumindong
2007-10-24, 06:54 PM
Regarding the last point, I indicated earlier that in that example from the DMG, it specifies that the DM is already tracking combat rounds. So, no, when the door is kicked in, no-one is flat footed, because a round has already passed where everyone took an action (Rogue drinks a potion, Cleric casts a spell, etc.).
Standing around waiting for a fight to start, though, is not an action unless you have already started combat and are delaying. Basically, Duom was trying to say that you can justify not being flat-footed simply by virtue of the fact that you *could* have started combat already. The point is, you didn't. Therefore, when it starts, you are flat footed.


These are the same thing buddy. "You could have attacked" and "you held your action" are the same thing. Because the "you could have acted" is the specific wording that fulfills the conditional "before you have taken an action in the combat round"


Now, doing something can include delaying or holding an action, but you have to be in the initiative count to do that

NO, Doing that starts the initiative count!

Grynning
2007-10-24, 07:12 PM
Same thing - if you start the initiative count (combat) you're in it. That means you have to roll against the other participants, and if they beat you, they go first. The rules give you no special advantage for declaring you take action first, they give you the advantage for GOING first, which is represented by the initiative roll.

Goumindong
2007-10-24, 07:14 PM
Same thing - if you start the initiative count (combat) you're in it. That means you have to roll against the other participants, and if they beat you, they go first. The rules give you no special advantage for declaring you take action first, they give you the advantage for GOING first, which is represented by the initiative roll.

How does he react to something he is not aware of? Its a surprise action that starts combat. Then he has had a turn and is no longer flat footed.

edit: Because of the way the rules are structured they very much DO give you an advantage if you say you go first, unless the other guy is ready. Checks are of course made for sense motive, but yea, that is the nature of surprise.

edit2: And if you dont adjudicate it as surprise, then the other person is counted as entering a combat already in session and so goes last in the initiative order.

Grynning
2007-10-24, 07:59 PM
No where in the rules do I see that you use Sense Motive to determine that combat is starting. Also, the person who says they go first doesn't necessarily go first - that's why you roll for it. It goes like this:

Orc stops me on the road. We don't immediately start fighting, he wants to shake me down for money for a toll.
We have a couple of rounds of dialogue.
He decides he can just kill me and take my stuff, I decide he's a pain and needs to die.
The DM says: He starts to swing his axe at you!
Me: Well I want to stab the crap out of him!
We both roll initiative, and neither of us are surprised. I win, and go first, even though technically the Orc's action was "declared" first.
I stab at the Orc. He's technically flat footed at this point, because even though the combat was obvious to both of us, he hasn't yet taken his action, and can't dodge me effectively. He gets no dex to AC, and if I can sneak attack, I get my bonus damage.
There are a lot of ways to explain this in the narrative sense. He's overconfident, raises his axe, but I'm quicker than he thought and strike first, he gets stabbed.
The point is, this is how the rules work, like it or not.

ColdBrew
2007-10-24, 08:02 PM
If combat had already begun, you would have to track rounds retroactively - say, ok, at this point I was circling around making threatening motions and calling the guy a varmint, and that was my action in round 1, and that's why I'm not flat-footed...see why I have a problem with this?
Not really. "Combat" in the sense that we're hitting each other had not begun, but all that positioning is certainly part of battle, and you could legitimately state that the battle was "on" at that point. I have no problem with the DM simply saying "Well, you spent about half a minute circling each other and talking trash before you decided to strike, so roll initiative and we'll call this Round 6. If you win, take the first shot. If not, looks like he was a little faster. Of course, neither of you are flat footed since you both knew it was going to come to blows and are defending yourselves appropriately."


Orc stops me on the road. We don't immediately start fighting, he wants to shake me down for money for a toll.
We have a couple of rounds of dialogue.
He decides he can just kill me and take my stuff, I decide he's a pain and needs to die.
The DM says: He starts to swing his axe at you!
Me: Well I want to stab the crap out of him!
We both roll initiative, and neither of us are surprised. I win, and go first, even though technically the Orc's action was "declared" first.
I stab at the Orc. He's technically flat footed at this point, because even though the combat was obvious to both of us, he hasn't yet taken his action, and can't dodge me effectively. He gets no dex to AC, and if I can sneak attack, I get my bonus damage.
My response here would depend on whether you both saw the battle coming. Did the orc really consider you a threat or was he not expecting you to resist? If he considered you a threat, he should have been taking steps to guard himself and would not leave himself open. He thus is NOT flat footed. In fact, you should have already been in initiative count, system-wise, with the winner deciding to strike first. Of course it's perfectly reasonable to save the actual rolling until someone decides to attack, since the first few rounds are just going to be dialogue. I suspect this is how most groups would handle it.

If he didn't consider you a threat, and you manage to conceal your intentions (a Bluff check is appropriate here, opposed by Sense Motive), then your sudden transition from victim to enemy starts the initiative count, and you'd get a surprise round to boot for...surprising him.


There are a lot of ways to explain this in the narrative sense. He's overconfident, raises his axe, but I'm quicker than he thought and strike first, he gets stabbed.
If he wasn't expecting you to attack him, then you should still be in the surprise round, which explains his flatfootedness. Your conversation didn't take place in initiative count. If he believed you would attack him, and had been taking appropriate measures to guard himself, then initiative count had already begun. The fact that you got your attack off first doesn't mean he didn't see it coming at all and was unprepared. If you want to surprise someone with your speed when they're already expecting you to attack, take the Flick of the Wrist feat and quickdraw on them. Just getting off the first swing of the fight is not enough to render them flatfooted, when they saw the fight coming from a mile away.

Grynning
2007-10-24, 08:30 PM
There is no surprise round if neither person is surprised! Where do you get that from? Catching someone who is aware of your presence off-guard is catching them flat-footed, not a surprise round. I will say it one more time: You do not have to be "surprised" to be flat-footed.
Also, using Bluff in combat to make someone flat footed is called a Feint, and without appropriate feat/class feature progression it takes a standard action. You can't just do it whenever.
However, nothing you said refutes the fact that when there is no surprise round, and combat starts "spontaneously", all combatants are flat-footed until they act. This what is explicitly stated in RAW, as quoted a good dozen or so times previously.

Justin_Bacon
2007-10-24, 11:42 PM
No where in the rules do I see that you use Sense Motive to determine that combat is starting.

Explicitly? It doesn't. Instead, the DMG gives the DM carte blanche to determine what the best way to decide who has awareness of the coming combat. And a Sense Motive check seems like a fairly reasonable way to determine that when a non-violent situation devolves into violence.

You can read all about it in my post on the previous page where I laid out all the pertinent rules. Or you could actually crack your DMG open and get it straight from the horse's mouth.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

Goumindong
2007-10-25, 03:15 PM
There is no surprise round if neither person is surprised! Where do you get that from? Catching someone who is aware of your presence off-guard is catching them flat-footed, not a surprise round. I will say it one more time: You do not have to be "surprised" to be flat-footed.
Also, using Bluff in combat to make someone flat footed is called a Feint, and without appropriate feat/class feature progression it takes a standard action. You can't just do it whenever.
However, nothing you said refutes the fact that when there is no surprise round, and combat starts "spontaneously", all combatants are flat-footed until they act. This what is explicitly stated in RAW, as quoted a good dozen or so times previously.

You cant make someone flat footed with a feint, you can deny them their deterity bonus to your next attack. They are different.

You are also wrong about catching someone who can see you if they arent aware of your intentions. Awareness is determined not only by spot and listen checks but sense motive and bluff checks.

Pertenint info from SRD

the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#determiningAwareness)


Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.

Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks.

Also, what is explicity stated in RAW is "all participants are considered flat footed until they have had a chance to act"

Relevent info found in the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#flatFooted)


At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed.

A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity.

You are not flat footed until you have acted, but until you have had a chance to act. Its right there, in the rules.

You have quoted this yourself many times, but still fail to see it.

You do not have to be surprised to be flat footed, but you cannot be ready and be flat footed, and there are actions, that given the time, cannot be considered to be capable of letting the other act first. I.E. You cannot move faster to get an attack against a person who you cannot see be ready for an attack.

Indon
2007-10-25, 03:40 PM
You are not flat footed until you have acted, but until you have had a chance to act. Its right there, in the rules.


I think that exists to keep people who have delayed their actions from being flat-footed.

Goumindong
2007-10-25, 10:15 PM
I think that exists to keep people who have delayed their actions from being flat-footed.

Yes, that is the exact situation we have been dealing with. Only it hasnt been declared because no one had swung their weapon yet and we didnt really need to roll init until that happened.

Fighteer
2007-10-26, 10:49 AM
Yes, that is the exact situation we have been dealing with. Only it hasnt been declared because no one had swung their weapon yet and we didnt really need to roll init until that happened.
When combat starts by rolling initiative, you cannot get out of being flat-footed by declaring that you have been retroactively delaying your actions, sorry. It just doesn't work that way.

Indon
2007-10-26, 11:03 AM
When combat starts by rolling initiative, you cannot get out of being flat-footed by declaring that you have been retroactively delaying your actions, sorry. It just doesn't work that way.

Yes it does.

If the DM knows your character is ready for combat, and combat breaks out, it would be absurd to say that your character isn't flat-footed.

Being aware of and prepared for combat directly implies that you have been delaying combat actions, and are thus not flat-footed.

And even if you have a DM who is such a stickler for raw that he ignores such an implication, if he makes this known his players can get around it by saying "I delay my combat action," instead of, "I loosen my scabbard."

Fighteer
2007-10-26, 11:15 AM
Yes it does.

If the DM knows your character is ready for combat, and combat breaks out, it would be absurd to say that your character isn't flat-footed.

Being aware of and prepared for combat directly implies that you have been delaying combat actions, and are thus not flat-footed.

And even if you have a DM who is such a stickler for raw that he ignores such an implication, if he makes this known his players can get around it by saying "I delay my combat action," instead of, "I loosen my scabbard."
Look, the whole concept of rolling initiative is to give combatants the chance to "get the drop" on each other. If you are that concerned about realism, then roll initiative as soon as anyone in the encounter draws a weapon or prepares any kind of hostile action. Then you can spend the next few rounds jawing while people delay their actions.

It makes no sense to roll initiative if every combatant is presumed to be aware of and ready for any hostile action on the part of their opponents. There had to have been a point during the encounter where someone could have been flat-footed had an actual blow been struck, and that's the point where initiative needs to be rolled. If everyone draws their weapons and stands there staring at each other, then there is a presumption that combat has already started and actions are being delayed/readied.

As an alternative, one side could attempt to bluff the other into dropping their guard (e.g., "Your shoelace is untied", "Look over there!", etc.) - this could be resolved as an opposed Bluff/Sense Motive to deny one or more opponents their Dexterity bonus to AC on the initial attack.

Indon
2007-10-26, 11:21 AM
Look, the whole concept of rolling initiative is to give combatants the chance to "get the drop" on each other.

Which they can, even if they're expecting combat to begin. It just means the advantage of initiative is limited to going first.


If you are that concerned about realism, then roll initiative as soon as anyone in the encounter draws a weapon or prepares any kind of hostile action. Then you can spend the next few rounds jawing while people delay their actions.


Considering the implication of action is pretty clear, doing it otherwise would just be a waste of time rolling dice and tallying numbers that would be better spent in suspenseful interaction.



It makes no sense to roll initiative if every combatant is presumed to be aware of and ready for any hostile action on the part of their opponents. There had to have been a point during the encounter where someone could have been flat-footed had an actual blow been struck, and that's the point where initiative needs to be rolled. If everyone draws their weapons and stands there staring at each other, then there is a presumption that combat has already started and actions are being delayed/readied.


The point of the initiative system is so that roughly simultaneous combat can be resolved with a turn-based system. This is regardless of awareness, preparation, or any other factors.



As an alternative, one side could attempt to bluff the other into dropping their guard (e.g., "Your shoelace is untied", "Look over there!", etc.) - this could be resolved as an opposed Bluff/Sense Motive to deny one or more opponents their Dexterity bonus to AC on the initial attack.

That's already in the game, in the combat chapter. It's called a feint.

Fighteer
2007-10-26, 12:11 PM
Which they can, even if they're expecting combat to begin. It just means the advantage of initiative is limited to going first.
However, as stated before, this allows characters an open-ended loophole to get out of being flat-footed in any combat situation where no surprise round occurs, which is obviously not the way the rules are intended to work.


Considering the implication of action is pretty clear, doing it otherwise would just be a waste of time rolling dice and tallying numbers that would be better spent in suspenseful interaction.
You can't be in combat without rolling initiative. You can't delay actions unless you are in combat. We're talking about the rules as written here.


The point of the initiative system is so that roughly simultaneous combat can be resolved with a turn-based system. This is regardless of awareness, preparation, or any other factors.
Except that winning initiative has a specific, described benefit at the start of any combat: the ability to act while your opponents are flat-footed. By allowing combatants to bypass this advantage, you seriously weaken the advantage of initiative.


That's already in the game, in the combat chapter. It's called a feint.
That's exactly my point. If you need to feint to catch your opponent with their Dex down, then you are already in combat rounds and should have rolled initiative previously. There is no advantage to feinting if your opponent is already flat-footed, which by RAW occurs between when initiative is first rolled and a character's first turn.

We can argue all week about realistic interpretations of any given situation, and you are free to house-rule whatever you want. However, the rules as written say that you start every combat flat-footed until your turn comes up, after you roll initiative. There is no room for creative logic here. It's explicit and unquestionable.

If you want to have pre-fight dialog in a situation where both sides are squaring off for battle, armed and prepared, then by RAW you should roll initiative the moment both sides become aware of each other and then have everyone hold their actions while they jaw it out. This satisfies both the letter of the rules and the spirit of realism.

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-26, 01:56 PM
However, as stated before, this allows characters an open-ended loophole to get out of being flat-footed in any combat situation where no surprise round occurs, which is obviously not the way the rules are intended to work.
This keeps coming up, but what is the loophole?

Not being surprised by an enemy you've been waiting for an attack from for several rounds is not a loophole, that's intended behavior.

You can't be in combat without rolling initiative. You can't delay actions unless you are in combat. We're talking about the rules as written here.
Tell it to the DMG, then. I've given the page reference more than once, but don't have it handy. They have specific examples of doing otherwise.

Also, religiously rolling initiative first is fine and fully compatible with what you're arguing against, if a waste of the time of everyone at the table. It only becomes different if you arbitrarily deny characters the option to roll for initiative.


We can argue all week about realistic interpretations of any given situation, and you are free to house-rule whatever you want. However, the rules as written say that you start every combat flat-footed until your turn comes up, after you roll initiative. There is no room for creative logic here. It's explicit and unquestionable.

If you want to have pre-fight dialog in a situation where both sides are squaring off for battle, armed and prepared, then by RAW you should roll initiative the moment both sides become aware of each other and then have everyone hold their actions while they jaw it out. This satisfies both the letter of the rules and the spirit of realism.
The only problem with this, to the point of contradicting the DMG, is the fixation on actually rolling the d20 as early as possible. Naturally initiative and combat rounds have to begin for you to get past the flat-footed opening round of contact, and equally naturally both begin when you become aware of the imminent combat. However, unless there are going to be opposed actions in that time there is no need to demand actions be stated in initiative order, or even to actually determine initiative order. When you do roll the dice, because initiative order has become relevant to play, the initiative determined is the one that has been on since the first round.

Fighteer
2007-10-26, 02:13 PM
This keeps coming up, but what is the loophole?

Not being surprised by an enemy you've been waiting for an attack from for several rounds is not a loophole, that's intended behavior.

The only problem with this, to the point of contradicting the DMG, is the fixation on actually rolling the d20 as early as possible. Naturally initiative and combat rounds have to begin for you to get past the flat-footed opening round of contact, and equally naturally both begin when you become aware of the imminent combat. However, unless there are going to be opposed actions in that time there is no need to demand actions be stated in initiative order, or even to actually determine initiative order. When you do roll the dice, because initiative order has become relevant to play, the initiative determined is the one that has been on since the first round.
The loophole is that you're leaving the question of when combat actually starts extremely vague. Let's take three common scenarios:

A) Two characters see each other and immediately attack. Initiative is rolled and the winner gets to attack the loser flat-footed. There's no argument here; the situation is quite explicit.

B) Two characters see each other and are mutually antagonistic. They talk it out, threaten each other, maybe Bluff a bit, then suddenly one or both draws a weapon and attacks. At this point, initiative is rolled, with the winner catching the loser flat-footed. This too is fairly explicit, but let's move on to...

C) Two characters see each other and draw weapons, but don't immediately attack. They try to talk out their issues while each carefully watches the other for any sign that he's going to make a move. When combat actually starts, both are ready for it.

There are two RAW interpretations of C. The first is that both sides rolled initiative upon meeting one another, but delayed their actions while speaking. Neither is flat-footed when the first attack roll is made. The second is that combat didn't start until the first blow was attempted, and therefore the loser of initiative is caught flat-footed no matter how "prepared" he was for the attack.

Both are equally valid, but the DM needs to interpret the situation properly and be prepared when the players say, "No wait, I was expecting that attack, I shouldn't be flat-footed!" You also have to deal with the same issue in scenario B. Does the mutual anticipation of hostility automatically mean that someone should not be flat-footed when actual combat rounds start? By RAW, it doesn't.

You must be in combat rounds and have taken an action, even if it's a delayed action, to avoid being flat-footed. Thus, the question is: can you retroactively have been assumed to be taking delay actions when you expected hostility from a specific opponent? Ultimately, this is up to the DM, but I believe that it violates the spirit of good gameplay to constantly retcon your own intentions. If you're anticipating hostility, then you should explicitly state that fact and take delayed actions, even if you decide for the sake of flow to wait to roll initiative until an actual attack is made.

Indon
2007-10-26, 02:22 PM
However, as stated before, this allows characters an open-ended loophole to get out of being flat-footed in any combat situation where no surprise round occurs, which is obviously not the way the rules are intended to work.


I don't think so.

Say you have two groups that mutually surprise each other, so no surprise round. Similarly, nobody is prepared for combat, because they were unaware they would be entering it.

Alternately, let's say a group is being extra-cautious and systematically preparing for combat at every turn. Preparing a readied action is a standard action, so they can only take move actions; such a group is thus moving at half-speed. A fair price to pay for being on-their-toes, if you ask me.



You can't be in combat without rolling initiative. You can't delay actions unless you are in combat. We're talking about the rules as written here.


Yes, my point is the RAW is ridiculous in this case and you should use common sense. Objects can't teleport regardless of how many commoners are passing them, monks know how to fight unarmed, and if you know combat is going to happen, it's not going to surprise you when it does.



Except that winning initiative has a specific, described benefit at the start of any combat: the ability to act while your opponents are flat-footed. By allowing combatants to bypass this advantage, you seriously weaken the advantage of initiative.


The advantage of initiative is going first. The flat-footed thing is a footnote of the system, and it would take a standard, readied action every round to bypass even that unless it was painfully obvious beforehand that combat would begin, in which case it's absurd to claim that you're surprised and thus flat-footed.



That's exactly my point. If you need to feint to catch your opponent with their Dex down, then you are already in combat rounds and should have rolled initiative previously. There is no advantage to feinting if your opponent is already flat-footed, which by RAW occurs between when initiative is first rolled and a character's first turn.


If you need to feint to catch your opponent with their Dex down, that's because they were expecting you to try something.



We can argue all week about realistic interpretations of any given situation, and you are free to house-rule whatever you want. However, the rules as written say that you start every combat flat-footed until your turn comes up, after you roll initiative. There is no room for creative logic here. It's explicit and unquestionable.

If I played in your campaign, could I get away with going around blocking off my opponents by creating walls composed of instantly-created quarterstaves using free actions during my turn? No? Then there's room for creative logic.

Fighteer
2007-10-26, 02:40 PM
Alternately, let's say a group is being extra-cautious and systematically preparing for combat at every turn. Preparing a readied action is a standard action, so they can only take move actions; such a group is thus moving at half-speed. A fair price to pay for being on-their-toes, if you ask me.
Except that in that situation, they can still be surprised or rendered flat-footed by an attack they did not see or anticipate. I don't have the books handy, but I'm pretty sure I remember that there are some cautionary paragraphs about players who insist on playing out combat rounds even when no actual combat is occurring.


The advantage of initiative is going first. The flat-footed thing is a footnote of the system, and it would take a standard, readied action every round to bypass even that unless it was painfully obvious beforehand that combat would begin, in which case it's absurd to claim that you're surprised and thus flat-footed.
Any character with sneak attack dice would argue with you about flat-footed being a "footnote". That said, there is a difference between being surprised and flat-footed that I think is at the heart of our disagreement. There is a split-second at the start of just about any fight where it's possible to gain an advantage simply because your opponent isn't fully prepared. In the real world, two people can be shouting at each other at the top of their lungs, but if one of them suddenly pulls a knife or takes a swing, he has a momentary advantage. It's not enough to simply be aware of a potential threat. You must be actively defending yourself from it, meaning you have to be aware of the specific threat. In such a situation, you are effectively in combat, whether blows are being traded or not.

I've trained in the martial arts - there's an extreme difference between "jumping" someone and squaring off in the ring. There's also a reason why they have (or used to have) the "first punch" rules in schools.

Edit for clarification: In the knife example, the initiative roll is actually a way of determining whether you anticipated the attack or not. Let's say you lose initiative. Your opponent got the drop on you and gets to stab/swing while you are flat-footed. If you win initiative, you anticipated the attack coming and can choose to attack first (before your opponent is ready) or delay your action/act defensively. He then becomes flat-footed because he wasn't expecting you to react so quickly to his attack.


If you need to feint to catch your opponent with their Dex down, that's because they were expecting you to try something.
And that's why Feint is a combat maneuver, requiring you to be in combat to attempt. Otherwise you're attempting to catch them flat-footed, which is expressed by rolling initiative. However, a DM could certainly allow a Bluff check to give a player an initiative bonus.


If I played in your campaign, could I get away with going around blocking off my opponents by creating walls composed of instantly-created quarterstaves using free actions during my turn? No? Then there's room for creative logic.
Not really: the RAW says that it's within the DM's rights to restrict what can be done as a free action. Your example is hyperbole and therefore not relevant.

Indon
2007-10-26, 02:57 PM
There is a split-second at the start of just about any fight where it's possible to gain an advantage simply because your opponent isn't fully prepared. In the real world, two people can be shouting at each other at the top of their lungs, but if one of them suddenly pulls a knife or takes a swing, he has a momentary advantage. It's not enough to simply be aware of a potential threat. You must be actively defending yourself from it, meaning you have to be aware of the specific threat. In such a situation, you are effectively in combat, whether blows are being traded or not.

I've trained in the martial arts - there's an extreme difference between "jumping" someone and squaring off in the ring. There's also a reason why they have (or used to have) the "first punch" rules in schools.


And I'm in the military (Do I win?). If I see someone with a gun, and I have a gun, I'mma be ready to shoot them if they try anything funny, 'momentary advantage' be damned.

Only if something actually surprises me; someone pulls a concealed weapon (such as in that 'guy pulls a knife' example. There's a Sleight of Hand usage that lets you do exactly that with a weapon), or someone else shows up on the scene with a suicide-bomb, or something, would I be flat-footed.



And that's why Feint is a combat maneuver, requiring you to be in combat to attempt. Otherwise you're attempting to catch them flat-footed, which is expressed by rolling initiative. However, a DM could certainly allow a Bluff check to give a player an initiative bonus.


You don't need to be in-combat to grab something out of a party members' hand, but you're gonna be making a Disarm roll for it.



Not really: the RAW says that it's within the DM's rights to restrict what can be done as a free action. Your example is hyperbole and therefore not relevant.

So you'd only let me make one instant-quarterstaff per turn? Well, I guess that's all I'd need to beat up any monks in your campaign who are all taking a -4 nonproficiency penalty with their own fists.

Seriously. There are, even on this forum, long lists of absurd examples in the RAW that demonstrate that nobody can reasonably follow it. Rule 0 is required to play a D&D game that makes sense.

In fact, earlier in this very thread it was pointed out how the surprise round can be exploited to a person's advantage, nonsensically, but by RAW.

Fighteer
2007-10-26, 03:09 PM
And I'm in the military (Do I win?). If I see someone with a gun, and I have a gun, I'mma be ready to shoot them if they try anything funny, 'momentary advantage' be damned.
But the person who shoots first has a pretty good chance of hitting, simply because you are not actively attempting to avoid the shot. That's the whole point of initiative. If you anticipate the attack sufficiently, you can either attempt to dodge it or attempt to shoot first. If you fail to anticipate it sufficiently, you are not actively dodging when he pulls the trigger, making it much more likely that you will get hit.

Being able to use your Dexterity bonus to AC means that you are literally ducking and weaving, taking advantage of cover, parrying attacks (in the case of melee), and you look pretty silly doing that if nobody is actually trying to attack you.

In a battlefield situation, you are actively anticipating combat from the minute you spot the enemy. But that's not what we're talking about here.


You don't need to be in-combat to grab something out of a party members' hand, but you're gonna be making a Disarm roll for it.
If the party member wishes to actively oppose your attempt to disarm him, then it's entirely reasonable for him to demand an initiative roll and enter combat rounds. Or the DM can insist on it. It all depends on the circumstances.


So you'd only let me make one instant-quarterstaff per turn? Well, I guess that's all I'd need to beat up any monks in your campaign who are all taking a -4 nonproficiency penalty with their own fists.
I guess I missed the rule that allows you to instantly create a quarterstaff, unless you mean that, since it has no cost, it has zero creation time. But you still need to pick up materials, which means at minimum a move-equivalent action to grab a stick from the ground. We're in an entirely different class of inconsistent rules here, so let's stick to the topic at hand, okay?

malcolm
2007-10-26, 03:11 PM
I disagree with Indon's interpretation of things, and I feel that Fighteer has the right of it.

The A, B, C examples are very clear and straightforward. Initiative is pretty simple in the campaigns I run; if you want to have an impact on the fight before initiative is rolled, then you better ready an action. Otherwise, at the first "hostile" action (the definition of which being the lynchpin) forces everyone to roll initiative.

The example of two people in the military pointing guns at each other doesn't hold much water with me either. Even if you're waiting for somebody to shoot you, they still have a window to pull that trigger and catch you before you're ready for it. That's how initiative works in my opinion, and it's fairly consistent with reality (as far as "consistency" can be applied to turn-based combat).

Imagine two gunfighters in an old Western cowboy movie, waiting to have a shootout. They roll initiative, winner draws first, BANG! The only way to interrupt this is if there's a 3rd shooter hiding behind some barrels, pointing a shotgun at the guy in black clothes. Shotgun man has readied an action to shoot the black clothed dude as soon as he moves his hand towards the holster.

That's how I play it, I welcome any input or disagreement. Go ahead and take everything out of context and do the line-by-line quote technique, it seems to be the internet standard for discourse. Cheers! :smallbiggrin:

Fighteer
2007-10-26, 03:37 PM
The A, B, C examples are very clear and straightforward. Initiative is pretty simple in the campaigns I run; if you want to have an impact on the fight before initiative is rolled, then you better ready an action. Otherwise, at the first "hostile" action (the definition of which being the lynchpin) forces everyone to roll initiative.
In furtherance of this, the act of readying an attack is explicitly a combat action that is not mistakable as anything else. In other words, you can't "ready" a bow to shoot the first person who moves without drawing an arrow, nocking it, and aiming in the general direction of your target(s). If you do this in an encounter, the DM is perfectly justified in calling for initiative rolls at that exact moment, as your opponents might take exception to the notion of you pointing an arrow at them.

If they are not aware of you aiming your bow/drawing your sword, then you have by definition achieved surprise and combat should be handled accordingly. If they are already in combat when you prepare your action, then you can deny them their Dexterity bonus on your initial attack since they weren't aware of your presence. If they in combat and aware of your presence but not your hostile intent, then I'd say a Feint maneuver would be in order, possibly with a circumstance bonus.

Back to the gun example, I was assuming that the weapons are drawn but not aimed. At the very instant you actually start to point it at someone, initiative must be rolled. It's very little different from drawing a sword and holding it to someone's throat. If you win initiative, you catch them flat-footed and can choose to attack or ready an action to attack should they attempt to move. I think there's even a combat maneuver that describes the effect of this, although I'm AFB at the moment and can't look it up.

Indon
2007-10-26, 04:35 PM
The A, B, C examples are very clear and straightforward. Initiative is pretty simple in the campaigns I run; if you want to have an impact on the fight before initiative is rolled, then you better ready an action. Otherwise, at the first "hostile" action (the definition of which being the lynchpin) forces everyone to roll initiative.


And that's all well and good. I haven't at any time proposed rolling initiative before it needs to be rolled.



Imagine two gunfighters in an old Western cowboy movie, waiting to have a shootout. They roll initiative, winner draws first, BANG! The only way to interrupt this is if there's a 3rd shooter hiding behind some barrels, pointing a shotgun at the guy in black clothes. Shotgun man has readied an action to shoot the black clothed dude as soon as he moves his hand towards the holster.


My point is, two people waiting to have a shootout, neither is flat-footed (well, except by violition, because you have to stand still and make no movement for the duel, but I digress), because both expect the other to pull their weapon.

Let's make it sword-based instead, as an example: We have two samurai who draw their weapons and begin combat at a preordained moment. The moment comes that both have been waiting for, one samurai strikes... and by RAW, catches the other samurai completely off guard. That's stupid. They're both on their guards at the same moment, just because one is a little faster doesn't mean the other one isn't paying attention.



That's how I play it, I welcome any input or disagreement. Go ahead and take everything out of context and do the line-by-line quote technique, it seems to be the internet standard for discourse. Cheers! :smallbiggrin:

I think you misunderstand what my position is. Initiative is rolled when combat begins, because initiative, and the turn order, exists to make combat run smoothly. But if combat is eminent and the players know this, it makes no sense to declare them to be off-their-guard (and thus flat-footed) when it begins.

I thus noted that a player can, when combat is eminent, declare that they are prepared for combat to begin, thus rendering them not flat-footed when it does.

Fighteer disagrees because that isn't strict RAW.

malcolm
2007-10-26, 05:20 PM
That's interesting, I can see it your way. Interesting discussion either way.

Goumindong
2007-10-26, 05:35 PM
You must be in combat rounds and have taken an action, even if it's a delayed action, to avoid being flat-footed.

In which case combat can never happen because you cant attack someone without being in a combat round and being in a combat round doesnt happen until someone is attacked.

Goumindong
2007-10-26, 05:39 PM
And I'm in the military (Do I win?). If I see someone with a gun, and I have a gun, I'mma be ready to shoot them if they try anything funny, 'momentary advantage' be damned.

Only if something actually surprises me; someone pulls a concealed weapon (such as in that 'guy pulls a knife' example. There's a Sleight of Hand usage that lets you do exactly that with a weapon), or someone else shows up on the scene with a suicide-bomb, or something, would I be flat-footed.


Actually no. You might be denied your dex bonus to AC to that attack, but you would not be flat footed.

Flat footed is a specific condition where you not only lose your dex bonus to AC, but also are unable to take attacks of opportunity. Since you are ready, you can take attacks of opportunity against any square you threaten

Fighteer
2007-10-26, 05:43 PM
My point is, two people waiting to have a shootout, neither is flat-footed (well, except by violition, because you have to stand still and make no movement for the duel, but I digress), because both expect the other to pull their weapon.

Let's make it sword-based instead, as an example: We have two samurai who draw their weapons and begin combat at a preordained moment. The moment comes that both have been waiting for, one samurai strikes... and by RAW, catches the other samurai completely off guard. That's stupid. They're both on their guards at the same moment, just because one is a little faster doesn't mean the other one isn't paying attention.

I think you misunderstand what my position is. Initiative is rolled when combat begins, because initiative, and the turn order, exists to make combat run smoothly. But if combat is eminent and the players know this, it makes no sense to declare them to be off-their-guard (and thus flat-footed) when it begins.

I thus noted that a player can, when combat is eminent, declare that they are prepared for combat to begin, thus rendering them not flat-footed when it does.

Fighteer disagrees because that isn't strict RAW.
I am willing to allow for a variation in the event of a duel scenario where the participants (a) are in clear sight of each other, (b) explicitly expect the other to attack, and (c) know exactly what method of attack will be used. In my opinion, however, this is not a variation from the basic rules so much as a special situation in which combat may technically begin prior to rolling initiative.

In point of fact, combat begins the instant the two square off against each other in expectation of the duel. Whether initiative is rolled at this point is not really relevant - in fact, if I were the DM, I would tell the combatants to roll initiative the moment they were both allowed by the rules to attack each other. At that point, it resolves to a situation where each combatant readies his action to occur as soon as the opponent acts, and by RAW this is decided by their respective Initiative and Dexterity modifiers.

It is still possible for one duelist to get the drop on the other by attacking earlier than allowed by the rules - for instance, before they are both in position, or - in the case of certain formalized duels - before the two duelists have walked the prescribed number of paces and turned to face each other.

What I argue with is your last point: "a player can, when combat is eminent [sic], declare that they are prepared for combat to begin, thus rendering them not flat-footed when it does." I say that this is a deliberate perversion of the rules with the potential for extreme abuse. If all I have to do is say, "I expected him to attack," to render myself not flat-footed, then you basically wipe out the concept except in situations of surprise.

As a DM, I would ask, "Did you expect him to attack at that time, with that weapon, did you draw or prepare your own weapon in anticipation of that fact, and did you specifically ready an action for the purpose of countering his?" The latter is the most important: if the player did not ready an action (and usually that is quite obvious unless you Bluff or Sleight of Hand a concealed draw), he doesn't gain the benefit of being "prepared".


In which case combat can never happen because you cant attack someone without being in a combat round and being in a combat round doesnt happen until someone is attacked.
Don't be intentionally obtuse. Declaring an attack starts combat, at which point everyone who can act rolls initiative. Everyone is flat-footed until their turn comes up in the the initiative order, whether they are the one who initiated combat or not.

Goumindong
2007-10-26, 05:43 PM
Let's make it sword-based instead, as an example: We have two samurai who draw their weapons and begin combat at a preordained moment. The moment comes that both have been waiting for, one samurai strikes... and by RAW, catches the other samurai completely off guard. That's stupid. They're both on their guards at the same moment, just because one is a little faster doesn't mean the other one isn't paying attention.

No, by RAW they have been in combat since the time they have become aware of each other. By RAW initiative was rolled at the wrong time.

Goumindong
2007-10-26, 05:45 PM
In point of fact, combat begins the instant the two square off against each other in expectation of the duel. Whether initiative is rolled at this point is not really relevant - in fact, if I were the DM, I would tell the combatants to roll initiative the moment they were both allowed by the rules to attack each other. At that point, it resolves to a situation where each combatant readies his action to occur as soon as the opponent acts, and by RAW this is decided by their respective Initiative and Dexterity modifiers.

Oh hey, see, this is RAW. And this is exactly what we have been saying this entire time.

I.E. If you become aware of someone 6 seconds before they attack, you are NOT flat footed. You may lose your dex bonus to AC because of a feint, or other issue, but you are NOT flat footed.

Fighteer
2007-10-26, 05:52 PM
No, by RAW they have been in combat since the time they have become aware of each other. By RAW initiative was rolled at the wrong time.


Oh hey, see, this is RAW. And this is exactly what we have been saying this entire time.

I.E. If you become aware of someone 6 seconds before they attack, you are NOT flat footed. You may lose your dex bonus to AC because of a feint, or other issue, but you are NOT flat footed.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Combat starts when one or more participants declares an attack OR readies an action. Otherwise combat rounds start the instant I see another individual, which is ridiculous.

Awareness does not automatically provoke combat. Taking a hostile action provokes combat. If a person in a non-hostile encounter initiates combat, all participants are flat-footed unless they specifically anticipated the attack and readied an action to deal with it, in which case they have already rolled initiative.

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-26, 06:32 PM
There does not exist a RAW definition of either combat or 'in combat'. Your proposed definition, howerver, contradicts some things we do know about combat...for instance, that no one is required to attack or ready an action in the first round.

Fighteer
2007-10-26, 06:57 PM
There does not exist a RAW definition of either combat or 'in combat'. Your proposed definition, howerver, contradicts some things we do know about combat...for instance, that no one is required to attack or ready an action in the first round.
So in your games, people roll initiative for their turn at ordering ale from the barmaid? You're twisting definitions to support your desire to prove me wrong, for whatever intangible benefit that seems to give you.

Of course there are situations where one measures time in combat rounds without rolling initiative or actually fighting, and there are circumstances where characters can make attack rolls without being in combat time.

However, for the purposes of this discussion, which is about the circumstances in which combatants are flat-footed, you must be in combat rounds in order to take turns, and to take turns, you must act in initiative order, which means you have to roll initiative. By RAW, once initiative has been rolled by any participant in a combat, you are flat-footed until you have taken your first turn, whether you attack someone, run away, ready an attack, delay your attack, or sit in a corner picking your nose.

The only exception that I can see to this rule, as I have stated above, is if someone specifically readies an action to take as soon as anyone else initiates combat. There really isn't a rule for the situation, although as a DM, as soon as the players start talking about drawing weapons, preparing to attack, casting spells, etc., during an encounter, I make them roll initiative. At that point, I don't allow them to retroactively say, "Oh yeah, I was holding my action just in case that guy attacked me, so I shouldn't be flat-footed." Either they already said they were readying an action, in which case they are already effectively in combat and at that point gave their opponents an opportunity to enter combat as well, or they did not prepare, in which case they are flat-footed.

In summary, simply being aware of the possibility of a threat does not keep you from being flat-footed. Only actively taking combat turns does that.

Goumindong
2007-10-26, 07:03 PM
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Combat starts when one or more participants declares an attack OR readies an action. Otherwise combat rounds start the instant I see another individual, which is ridiculous.

Awareness does not automatically provoke combat. Taking a hostile action provokes combat. If a person in a non-hostile encounter initiates combat, all participants are flat-footed unless they specifically anticipated the attack and readied an action to deal with it, in which case they have already rolled initiative.

No, combat starts when people are aware. You do not need to declare an attack to start combat.

But please, i would love for you to quote something that says "combat starts when someone declares an attack". Instead of "roll initiative when battle begins"

Fighteer
2007-10-26, 07:11 PM
No, combat starts when people are aware. You do not need to declare an attack to start combat.

But please, i would love for you to quote something that says "combat starts when someone declares an attack". Instead of "roll initiative when battle begins"
I am assuming that you're smart enough to equate "when battle begins" with actual combat, not merely proximity to other living beings. You do seem to be trying to prove me wrong though. When you walk into a room with other people in a social environment, do you immediately roll initiative and start taking combat rounds? That must be embarassing for your friends when you start overturning tables to provide cover.

Retreating from the sarcasm a bit, in your typical dungeon encounter, it's usually safe to assume hostility unless proven otherwise, but in that case the standard mechanics apply - you roll initiative immediately upon the start of the encounter, take a surprise round if applicable, etc., etc. But we're talking about a roleplaying encounter that devolves into combat, in which case characters are considered flat-footed until their turn comes up in a normal initiative sequence. By declaring a readied action in a situation where both sides are aware of each other, they initiate combat time and must roll initiative at that point. Otherwise they are not ready and cannot magically become exempt from the rules.

Goumindong
2007-10-26, 07:45 PM
Yes, and we have consistantly given social mechanics for becoming aware that you consistantly ignore for saying that combat starts when you start swinging.

If i am aware that the guy in the corner is hostile to me 6 seconds before he attacks, i am not flat footed. How you become aware is up to the DM to decide. And we have social skill checks for this. use them

Why do you keep ignoring mechanics for becoming aware and just declaring people get surprise rounds and are flat footed when they may not be?

Combat often starts long before blows start falling.

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-26, 07:49 PM
For the benefit of having a set of combat rules that are not logically incoherent/paradoxical/undefined. I'm kind of fond of rules that actually work even when thought through.

Why can't they declare combat time without readying an action?

Not without (at least implied) rolling of initiative. Not retroactively, for crying out loud, and not, I would suggest, without giving some way for others to notice that you're suddenly looking at them as if they were a bunch of orc tunnel guards. But without spending a standard action to wait poised to strike, or whatever it is you want to do.

This doesn't mean you automatically avoid surprise all the time. Nor does it mean that you can't have someone else start something and act first in the round when they do. It just means that you can, if you're willing to, avoid standing utterly bewildered while a known assassin removes your kidneys.

Fighteer
2007-10-26, 10:46 PM
Yes, and we have consistantly given social mechanics for becoming aware that you consistantly ignore for saying that combat starts when you start swinging.

If i am aware that the guy in the corner is hostile to me 6 seconds before he attacks, i am not flat footed. How you become aware is up to the DM to decide. And we have social skill checks for this. use them

Why do you keep ignoring mechanics for becoming aware and just declaring people get surprise rounds and are flat footed when they may not be?

Combat often starts long before blows start falling.
And I have already given my justification for why simple awareness that someone might do something hostile is not the same as being prepared for that person's specific attack, and therefore does not justify ignoring the flat-footed rules.

Gaining your Dexterity bonus to AC implies that you are actively avoiding being struck. You are dodging, parrying, weaving. You are not standing face to face with your opponent with swords drawn waiting for them to strike.

I will say it again in absolutely uncertain terms, and if you still fail to agree, then we just have to leave it there:

A) If you merely anticipate hostility from someone, you are not taking active measures to defend yourself and are thus flat-footed if battle starts AND you have not taken an action in your initiative order.

B) Taking active measures to defend yourself can be considered a combat action that requires rolling initiative. The same occurs with drawing a weapon to cover a target or prevent it from taking actions.

There is nothing contradictory or difficult to comprehend about these two situations. By actively defending yourself (thus gaining your Dex bonus to AC), you are inarguably participating in combat, whether anyone else in the encounter is or not. Plus, your opponent (who is undoubtedly also anticipating your attack) gets an equal opportunity to roll initiative and start doing stuff.

Put even more simply, you cannot start acting like you're in combat rounds and rolling initiative without giving the same benefit to your opponents. It doesn't matter when the first blow is struck or even if a blow is struck. The moment anyone in a scenario takes a combat action (which includes readying an attack), everyone who is aware of the situation also gets a chance to act. Choosing not to act = delaying an action, meaning that in such a scenario, if everyone readies or delays their action, nobody is flat-footed. But you have to roll initiative and determine turn order before this can happen, and you also lose the ability to catch your opponents flat-footed.

Basically what you're trying to do is cheeseball an arbitrary advantage in combat by justifying why you shouldn't be flat-footed while someone else is. Either that or we are both saying exactly the same thing: if both sides in a combat choose to prepare beforehand, neither is flat-footed. The only difference is that you claim that you can have this happen simply by saying "I'm not flat-footed", while I say that in every encounter, no matter what the situation, there exists a moment where either side could attack while everyone is flat-footed. This doesn't negate the game mechanic; it simply compresses the "moment of truth" by not playing out the standoff round by round.


This doesn't mean you automatically avoid surprise all the time. Nor does it mean that you can't have someone else start something and act first in the round when they do. It just means that you can, if you're willing to, avoid standing utterly bewildered while a known assassin removes your kidneys.
If the assassin stands there and declares his intent to kill you, thereby giving you time to prepare an action, then yes, neither of you would be flat-footed, because essentially, the following happens:

1) You become aware of each other and roll initiative.
2) If you win, you choose not to attack the assassin immediately, but instead wait to see what he is going to do.
3) If the assassin wins, instead of attacking he chooses to stand there and make some kind of speech about how you killed his father and should prepare to die.
4) The next action at this point could be an attack, and neither of you would be flat-footed because both of you already got a combat action.

If you choose to skip initiative in step 1 and roll it later, it doesn't change the mechanical explanation; it simply skips a bit for the sake of drama. But either one of you could have attacked first and caught the other flat-footed. This is doubly true if you become aware of the assassin before he sees you. In this case, again, you roll your initiative and gain a chance to attack him while he's flat-footed.

There's nothing contradictory or hard to understand here.

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-27, 02:04 AM
Um. Are you argumentatively agreeing with everything I've been saying? Because other than accusatory mutterings about 'cheeseball advantages', I don't actually see any disagreement. If you'll grant that the 'taking active measures' can be covered by a what is essentially a free action (as part of your turn) since being un-flatfooted in 'normal' combat doesn't demand that you actually take any move, standard, full-round, or swift action... we've degenerated to forcefully agreeing with each other. :smallsmile:

Er, well, unless you think the assassin has to actually declare his intent to kill you before you can recognize the threat and roll initiative. But it doesn't sound as if you do.

Fighteer
2007-10-27, 07:46 AM
Um. Are you argumentatively agreeing with everything I've been saying? Because other than accusatory mutterings about 'cheeseball advantages', I don't actually see any disagreement. If you'll grant that the 'taking active measures' can be covered by a what is essentially a free action (as part of your turn) since being un-flatfooted in 'normal' combat doesn't demand that you actually take any move, standard, full-round, or swift action... we've degenerated to forcefully agreeing with each other. :smallsmile:

Er, well, unless you think the assassin has to actually declare his intent to kill you before you can recognize the threat and roll initiative. But it doesn't sound as if you do.
Yeah, that's wierd, I think we ended up arguing the same thing from different perspectives. :smallredface: I'm not saying that the assassin has to declare anything per se. I'm simply saying that in nearly every combat situation, there exists a moment in time where at least one of the participants could have been flat-footed, even if the other(s) chose not to take advantage of that opportunity. Thus, there is an implicit start to the combat sequence, whether it is explicitly declared and rolled or not.

Dullyanna
2007-10-27, 01:13 PM
At this point, it really seems to me that it's the DM's call when it comes to determining when the "Battle" starts. It's become so muddled that some of us (Myself included) can't don't even notice that we're agreeing with each other on certain points. RAW seems pretty damn vague to me when it comes to defining "when" a battle starts. Therefore, it's open to interpretation.

Fighteer
2007-10-27, 03:24 PM
I guess this is where we disagree, because the rules are absolutely clear as far as I can tell. A battle starts when the participants roll initiative, and at that point everyone is flat-footed until they take their first action.

There's nothing wrong with abstracting the initial rounds if nobody is taking actions, but there is and always was a point where somebody decided that combat was about to occur and started acting accordingly. It is that moment that should trigger initiative, even if the players and DM agree not to roll until someone actually attacks.

ColdBrew
2007-10-27, 06:10 PM
I will say it again in absolutely uncertain terms, and if you still fail to agree, then we just have to leave it there:
"If you disagree with me, this discussion is over." That's classy.


There's nothing wrong with abstracting the initial rounds if nobody is taking actions, but there is and always was a point where somebody decided that combat was about to occur and started acting accordingly. It is that moment that should trigger initiative, even if the players and DM agree not to roll until someone actually attacks.
Which is exactly what we've been saying. That's why having a higher initiative modifier means you get to hit me first after you finish your speech (which I politely waited through), but I am not flat footed. For ease of use, we delayed the actual toss of the d20 until it came to swingin' because we just didn't need to know yet, and it would have ruined the drama if I had to say "I delay" between every sentence of your speech.

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-27, 06:15 PM
When people say when combat starts is vague, 'when initiative is rolled' makes no sense. Yes, those are things that always occur together at least in concept. But equally (arguably more so) initiative is rolled when combat starts. The question is what causes initiative to be rolled/combat to start.

ColdBrew
2007-10-28, 12:35 AM
The question is what causes initiative to be rolled
That's easy. The brain sends out a signal through the central nervous system. This signal passes to the peripheral system and keeps getting passed from nerve to nerve until it hits the muscle. The nerve at the muscle lets out a substance that causes muscle cells to contract, and a series of these contractions results in a d20 falling onto the tabletop.

Fighteer
2007-10-29, 10:18 AM
Which is exactly what we've been saying. That's why having a higher initiative modifier means you get to hit me first after you finish your speech (which I politely waited through), but I am not flat footed. For ease of use, we delayed the actual toss of the d20 until it came to swingin' because we just didn't need to know yet, and it would have ruined the drama if I had to say "I delay" between every sentence of your speech.
No, you shouldn't have to say "I delay" every six seconds. However, you do need to state that your character is preparing for combat for it to count. Otherwise, when the DM calls for initiative, you don't get to say, "No, wait, I was totally expecting this to happen, so I shouldn't be flat-footed." My concern is not that it's a violation of the rules per se, but that players may try to use it as an excuse to weasel out of being subject to the rules.

DM: "An orc steps out of the trees. He's holding an axe."
PC: "I draw my sword and wait to see what he does."

At this point, the player specifically stated that he was preparing for combat and one could reasonably exempt him from being flat-footed. In fact, unless the orc or the player parleys, you could start combat rounds right there.

My whole point is that there must be an explicit declaration of a combat-related action, and it must be against an threat that the character is specifically aware of. Simply being suspicious or watchful is not sufficient.


When people say when combat starts is vague, 'when initiative is rolled' makes no sense. Yes, those are things that always occur together at least in concept. But equally (arguably more so) initiative is rolled when combat starts. The question is what causes initiative to be rolled/combat to start.
When the DM decides that it's time to start determining things in combat rounds. Almost always, this is when one party chooses to attack the other. The crux of the argument we're having is that some people claim that you can be "prepared" for combat, and therefore not flat-footed, when initiative is rolled, in direct contradiction to the rules.

The only way this is justifiable is if you had already taken an action in the current battle, which means that at some point you decided that you were going to draw a weapon, ready an action, or otherwise do something that would be considered a combat action by the rules. According to the rules, you should roll initiative at that point. Choosing not to do so is a DM's call to facilitate flow, but there must be a declared action or you don't get to avoid being flat-footed when combat actually does start. It's not enough just to say, "Oh yeah, I totally saw that coming."

ColdBrew
2007-10-29, 06:31 PM
However, you do need to state that your character is preparing for combat for it to count. Otherwise, when the DM calls for initiative, you don't get to say, "No, wait, I was totally expecting this to happen, so I shouldn't be flat-footed."
In the situations we've been discussing, I'd think it's blindingly obvious. We've got our swords drawn and are dramatically circling each other, you're waving a dagger about and describing how I wronged you, etc. No one's suggesting you can just say you were ready and get out of it no questions asked. Ever see the movie "The Gamers?"

"I'm always expecting an ambush!"
"You can't always be expecting an ambush, how would your character sleep?"

As always, I'd like to assume the players have good intentions.


The crux of the argument we're having is that some people claim that you can be "prepared" for combat, and therefore not flat-footed, when initiative is rolled, in direct contradiction to the rules.
If you take "when initiative is rolled" to mean "when the game construct of 'initiative' comes into play" then yes, you're correct. However, what they mean is, "when the d20 is actually rolled to determine our initiative order." They're prepared already when initiative is physically rolled because the roll of the die has been delayed for ease of play.

Fighteer
2007-10-30, 07:54 AM
As always, I'd like to assume the players have good intentions.
Heh. Bad idea. Believe me, I know.


If you take "when initiative is rolled" to mean "when the game construct of 'initiative' comes into play" then yes, you're correct. However, what they mean is, "when the d20 is actually rolled to determine our initiative order." They're prepared already when initiative is physically rolled because the roll of the die has been delayed for ease of play.
Then we basically agree. :smallsmile:

ColdBrew
2007-10-30, 01:36 PM
Then we basically agree.
Well then...good argument.

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-30, 02:19 PM
When the DM decides that it's time to start determining things in combat rounds. Almost always, this is when one party chooses to attack the other. The crux of the argument we're having is that some people claim that you can be "prepared" for combat, and therefore not flat-footed, when initiative is rolled, in direct contradiction to the rules.
That still evades the question. Unless you mean to say that flatfootedness is controlled entirely at the DM's whim, there needs to be some way to determine when it is correct to decide that the battle is started.

I'd consider it safe to say that battle is started when anyone says so. PC or NPC. They have no need to handle weapons, throw punches, or even gesture threateningly. They probably do need to change posture, start watching their surroundings differently, and generally look twitchy.

As I think I've had to say in the last 4 posts, this is not when someone retroactively claims to have said so thirty seconds ago. If you meant to get ready to go for the diplomat's throat 30 seconds ago, you should have said so then so that others could respond appropriately.