Hexblades, why?

[Chalkarts]

I've been in several warlock discussions where the first thing someone says is,
"You should play a Hexblade."
:confused:
Why does the Hexblade exist?
What supplement did it come from?

Warlocks didn't need a Fighting subclass, they have blade pact.

Were people asking for it?
"Ok, I want to play an eldritch knight, but not as a fighter, whatya got?"

Sorry to be a pest, people just keep suggesting something that doesn't make any sense to me and I'm trying to understand the attraction.

[Solusek]

Blade Pact on its own is real bad. If WotC wanted there to be a melee viable warlock option they failed with blade pact. If you look at Hexblade as a way to "fix" blade pact by making melee finally viable, then it makes sense.

And the reason people keep suggesting Hexblade on the forums is because WotC overtuned the power level of the subclass - especially if taken as a multiclass dip. Power gamers gonna power game.

[Nidgit]

The Blade Pact was widely considered to be underpowered since it made Warlocks MAD and was inferior damage-wise to simply Eldritch Blasting. Hexblade and its associated Invocations like Eldritch Smite are an attempt to fix that by boosting its power, making it only rely on Charisma, and giving it some more durability through medium armor and extra spells.

At this point, though, the Hexblade seems stronger than a lot of other Warlock Patrons due to strong subclass abilities. The real popularity comes from the 1st level ability to be entirely CHA-focused, which can significantly boost a Paladin or melee-oriented Bard or Sorcerer with a single level dip. That's why you're seeing it recommended so much. Eldritch Smite compounds the problem by creating another cheap Nova option.

In essence, the current popularity of Hexblade largely comes from its mechanical strength. The flavor is just kind of ok, but the main thing is that it makes a lot more builds viable.

[Aett_Thorn]

The Hexboade is what occurs when the Devs don’t realize that a mistake made in the PHB should be fixed in errata, and not in a new subclass.

If you’re going by the PHB, being a Dex-based Bladelock isn’t horrible, but isn’t great either. But trying to be a Str-based bladelock requires multiple feats and multiple invocations to make work even alright, and even then was weaker than basically all other options.

The Hexblade tried to fix that by making the class more SAD for such a Bladelock, but by being a subclass, imbalanced the whole class towards a single, strong option for even non-melee Warlocks. And for multiclassing, it’s by far the best dip that several classes can take.

There’s no going back now, but I do wish they’d add something to the base Bladelock to make other options competitive.

[sithlordnergal]

I've been in several warlock discussions where the first thing someone says is,
"You should play a Hexblade."
:confused:
Why does the Hexblade exist?

Warlocks didn't need a Fighting subclass, they have blade pact.


It exists in order to make Pact of the Blade viable. Up until Hexblade was available, Pact of the Blade was a trap option, and was on par with the likes of the standard PHB Beastmaster. In fact, if you wanted to make a good Melee Warlock, you'd go Pact of the Tome, take Shillelagh, get Armor of Shadows for a free Mage Armor, and snag PAM. The reason for this is that, unlike most classes, a Warlock's "subclass" is actually made up of their Pact and Pact Boon. The Pact grants you a lot of class abilities, while the Pact Boon opens up which invocations you can take to help specialize your build. And while the Pacts in the PHB meshed really well with the likes of Pact of the Chain or Pact of the Tome, none of them did a thing for Pact of the Blade.

Most subclasses that allow a full caster to become a frontline fighter offer access to better armor, martial weapons, and Extra Attack. Valor Bard gains access to Medium Armor and Shields, Bladesingers can use Light Armor, ect., and they all gain Extra Attack at level 6. None of the available Pacts in the PHB do that, and instead you're left with a build that is supposed to be in the frontlines, since you can only summon melee weapons, but is stuck in Light Armor, doesn't gain an Extra Attack like normal, and has no real way of defending themselves if they're targeted, and they end up being MAD due to needing Charisma, Dexterity, and possibly Strength. They don't even get a way to put some distance between themselves and an enemy, like the Monk and Rogue get.

Hexblade fixes that by giving the Warlock access to Medium Armor and Shields, similar to the Valor Bard, and lets them become SAD by keying all of their attacks off of Charisma. It also makes you better in combat in general, by giving you the ability to Hex someone, which increases the damage you do on an attack, increases the chance of getting a crit, and lets you regain HP if you kill the target.





Were people asking for it?
"Ok, I want to play an eldritch knight, but not as a fighter, whatya got?"

Sorry to be a pest, people just keep suggesting something that doesn't make any sense to me and I'm trying to understand the attraction.

Yes, a lot of people were asking for a way to make Pact of the Blade more viable, because the concept was really cool. You had this Warlock who could summon a melee weapon of their choice out of nowhere, and who should be able to hold their own in melee combat at least as well as a Valor Bard. Only it didn't work that way...instead you had half a Subclass with no support from the other half of your Subclass. As a result, anyone who chose Pact of the Blade usually were relegated to spaming Eldritch Blast because it was just the better option since you didn't have the AC to survive in the front lines.




What supplement did it come from?


It comes from Xanathar's Guide to Everything.


Now, to answer why every single guide suggests it: They suggest it because they accidentally overtuned the balance on Hexblade. While the other pacts are perfectly fine, with Hexblade you get Medium Armor, Shields, Martial Weapons, the ability to make all attacks, including magical attacks, do extra damage equal to your proficiency modifier AND crit on a 19-20, AND it allows you to use a martial weapon of your choice with Charisma for free. It basically takes every single Charisma class out there and makes them better in some way. Even classes that already get most of what the Hexblade offers, like the Paladin, get buffed, because now they only have to max out their Charisma. There's no need to balance Strength, Charisma, and Con. Just get 15 Strength, take 1 level of Hexblade, and never touch Strength again

[Kane0]

As above, Hexblade was released in UA and later officially through Xan's. Most recognise it as an attempt to shore up the lacklustre Blade Pact compared to the other two options, and done poorly in hindsight.

[Millstone85]

The flavor is just kind of okI think the flavor is really wrong.

All other patrons are categories. The Archfey could be any archfey, the Fiend could be any strong enough fiend, etc. But the Hexblade is described as an unique entity, that may or may not be an alias of the Raven Queen. This feels so needlessly restrictive, and at the same time much too vague.

Also, the book speaks of sentient weapons that the Hexblade manifests into, but offers no advice on how to involve those in a warlock's backstory. Does Blackrazor, or another weapon of shadows, have to act as a proxy for the Hexblade? And if yes, why aren't you wielding that weapon?

I think most people are going to use the UA version of the lore, where the sentient weapon itself is your patron. The last question could be answered with the weapon calling to the warlock, telling them to find it, or with the weapon being mundane in the hands of a low-level adventurer.

[MrStabby]

I've been in several warlock discussions where the first thing someone says is,
"You should play a Hexblade."
:confused:
Why does the Hexblade exist?
What supplement did it come from?

Warlocks didn't need a Fighting subclass, they have blade pact.

Were people asking for it?
"Ok, I want to play an eldritch knight, but not as a fighter, whatya got?"

Sorry to be a pest, people just keep suggesting something that doesn't make any sense to me and I'm trying to understand the attraction.

So the hexblade... is powerful as an option but the problems are around the order that things happen in. Not only is it ridiculously front loaded, but the front levels are the features great for multiclassing and all of this on a class that is fantastic to dip for two levels anyway.

[Dork_Forge]

It was a very misguided attempt to reinforce the blade pact, imo the inovcations in Xanathars (Improved Pact Weapon and Eldritch Smite) went most of the way to fixing everything missing from the Blade pact which wasn't that bad anyway. Unlike other martial subclasses for casters Bladelock is the only one able to grab Extra Attack at the same level as a full martial character, between that and things like at will temp hp it was always a decent gish option. The medium armor, shields and Cha SAD should have been stripped out of Hexblade and put into a blade invocation (something like Combat Ready), Hexblade's Curse is still a very good patron ability on its own and it would bring the whole thing more in line with the other patrons (and hopefully stop all this "well just dip Hexblade" nonsense that's persisted since Xanathar's was released).

[ProsecutorGodot]

I think the flavor is really wrong.
...
I think most people are going to use the UA version of the lore, where the sentient weapon itself is your patron. The last question could be answered with the weapon calling to the warlock, telling them to find it, or with the weapon being mundane in the hands of a low-level adventurer.

The way I envisioned Hexblades for our home campaign setting has a revenant like aspect. You've struck a bargain with an entity that would have otherwise guided your soul to its final rest, this normally requires the death of the warlock in question but in exceptional cases a bargain could be struck while alive. As part of this bargain an aspect of your soul is tied into a weapon (or if your Hexblade plans to switch weapons regularly, an ornament that would be affixed to a weapon). This fragment of your soul tied the weapon not only ensures that you will fight with this weapon as an extension of your own will but that should you go back on the deal you made with this entity that the cost would be substantial. They made this weapon for you and only they know how to restore your soul to its whole when you finally do meet your end.

I also prefer to have some sort of physical change associated with this pact since you're literally trading a part of your soul. The Hexblade that I play has aged over 40 years, having the body of someone in their mid 60's when he'd only lived for a little over 20. If I were to run a campaign with a Hexblade, I would consider reflavoring the accursed specter (I hate the feature as is) to instead use the dissipating life energy of the slain creature to spawn your soul fragment in a ghostlike form. It's effectively the same but with the changes I've made I feel it fits the flavor better to be commanding an echo of your own self rather than someone else's trapped soul.

That said, I understand that not everyone is enthusiastic about more or less being forced to find your own fluff for the subclass because, as you say, it's undeniably lacking any by default.

[Chalkarts]

Now I see.
It WAS shoehorned in, lol.

It always felt out of place among warlocks for me.

Sign a deal with a Demon/Fey/Cthulhu and you can have these mysterious powers.
or
Take this vaguely explained magical sword and murder everyone and everything just because you can.

I prefer Option 1.
Thank you all for the background on this obnoxious thing.

[Keravath]

I think that the other posters covered most of the points. Fundamentally, the hexblade patron makes playing a melee pact of the blade warlock more viable. Prior to the introduction of the hexblade, most blade pact warlocks would start with a level in fighter or take medium armor proficiency as a variant human. Basically, most other melee classes did a better job as a melee combatant than a warlock and the few spells they had didn't help that much.

Ranger - medium armor and shields, extra attack, ranged weapons, fighting style and spells, dex and some wisdom, all weapons
Paladin - heavy/medium armor and shields, extra attack, str or dex + cha (a bit MAD), spells, fighting style, smites, auras, all weapons
Eldritch Knight - heavy/medium armor and shields, extra attack, ranged and melee weapons, str or dex with int optional, fighting style, all weapons

Warlock - pact of the blade - light armor (no shields, no medium or heavy armor)=poor AC, ranged attacks based off charisma with eldritch blast while melee attacks could be with pact weapon, only simple weapons + pact weapon (which could only be a melee weapon unless they managed to find a magical ranged weapon). However all melee attacks needed dex or str while spells were cha based making them as MAD as a paladin or more but lacking the extras of the paladin

Hexblade - uses charisma for to hit and damage with 1 handed weapons and pact weapons - medium armor and shield proficiency, martial weapon proficiencies. Hexblade's curse is 1/short rest and is useful but is not the defining feature.

In addition, Xanathar's added the improved pact weapon invocation which made the pact weapon a +1 and allowed for ranged pact weapons.

Eldritch smite is pretty useless for a blade pact warlock before level 11 since they only have two spell slots and usually a lot more useful spells to use than to blow one on a Xd8 smite. (e.g. shadow of moil or darkness+devils sight)

Stand alone, a hexblade fixes most of the issues with blade pact warlocks and makes them a reasonable alternative to most of the other melee options. They aren't broken or OP on their own. The only issue really arises in that a 1, 2 or 3 level dip in hexblade can be very strong when mixed with other classes. A level of hexblade lets a paladin use 1 handed weapons with charisma and so they can choose to boost only charisma instead of having to boost both charisma and dex/str. Hexblade+sorcerer = good armor and spells, hexblade+bard = same .. both also get agonizing blast and some short rest spell slots. Hexblade dip can be really good for various other charisma casters.

[Kane0]

A quick and dirty i've seen is to move the armor/shield proficiency and Cha to attack/damage to the Pact boon at level 3 instead of the Patron, with the Cha to attack/damage only working for the weapon you get/set as part of the blade pact.

No net loss in any of your features, but moves a lot of the frontloading and lets you be just as good a bladelock under any patron.

[Habber_Dasher]

So unpopular opinion. Certain non hexblade builds, for instance going variant human or mountain dwarf for medium armor, are about on par with hexblade, at least at low and mid levels. Most of your spell slots are going to be used for hex, or armor of agathys, or darkness, or smites none of which are based of of your charisma. Shield is nice, but again, are you going to save one of your two spell slots for it? Hexblade's curse is very powerful, but I think some of the other subclass features are at least comparable. Many of the hexblade's features are more powerful when taken as a dip than for the base class.

All of that changes at lvl 11 however. Not only do you have access to that invocation that adds your char modifier to damage, but you also have enough spell slots that you might consider casting something besides self buffs.

[Willie the Duck]

So unpopular opinion. Certain non hexblade builds, for instance going variant human or mountain dwarf for medium armor, are about on par with hexblade, at least at low and mid levels.

Oh, let's be clear, there are ways to shore up a bladelock other than the hexblade. A single level of fighter also 'fixes' baldelocks at least enough that they can survive being a semi-regular frontliner. However, if you need something like Multiclassing or using a Vuman feat to get armor your class doesn't get natively, that's a pretty big critique of the base class+archetype as it is.

Multi-classing, now that we're on the subject, is where hexblade becomes a problem. In isolation, a hexblade bladelock is frankly fine--it's an alternate-mechanics magic-themed fighter-type It is mixing and matching of it with Sorcerers, Paladins, and occasionally Bards that becomes frustrating... alongside the issue that being pigeonholed into a not-especially interesting set of class selections flavorwise (remove the mechanical benefits and I doubt many people would pick a hexblade bladelock over a GOO tomelock or fae chainlock).

Honestly, if I had a time machine or was pitching 6E, I'd suggest that the ground that bladelocks were intended to cover in the first place (just the same a valor bards, but for warlocks, or do you think it was attempting to be like 3e's 'glaivelock' builds?), I would simply make a warlock-themed fighter subclass in the same vein as Eldritch Knight for wizards.

[Sigreid]

I think most people see it as the Hexblade patron comes with all the stuff that should have been part of the blade pact kit (the armor, the cha for attacks, etc.) and you can still be a book or familiar pact while getting the combat upgrade.

[Tanarii]

It was a very misguided attempt to reinforce the blade pact,
This is a good summary by itself.

[Kane0]

Honestly, if I had a time machine or was pitching 6E, I'd suggest that the ground that bladelocks were intended to cover in the first place (just the same a valor bards, but for warlocks, or do you think it was attempting to be like 3e's 'glaivelock' builds?), I would simply make a warlock-themed fighter subclass in the same vein as Eldritch Knight for wizards.

Considering the 3e incarnation of the Hexblade was a full-BAB partialcaster that makes total sense, and the name suits a warrior better than a patron. Many (I included) have had the same thought.


Level 3: Pact Magic
You gain pact magic on a 1/3 progression (round up) using the warlock spell list and using Charisma as your casting stat. You know two cantrips at level 3 and a third at level 10.

Level 3: Bonded Weapon
You learn a ritual that creates a magical bond between yourself and up to two weapons. You perform the ritual over the course of 1 hour, which can be done during a short rest. The weapon must be within your reach throughout the ritual, and bonding to a third weapon releases the bond on one of your bonded weapons.
Once you have bonded a weapon to yourself you cannot be disarmed of that weapon unless you are incapacitated, and you can summon a bonded weapon weapon to your hand as a bonus action on your turn if it is on the same plane of existence. A bonded weapon can be used as a spell focus, and while you are wielding a bonded weapon you are considered to have a free hand for the purposes of casting spells.

Level 7: Hexblade Curse
Once per short rest as a bonus action you can target one creature you can see with a crippling curse that lasts one minute. Your attacks deal an additional 1d6 necrotic damage to the target. The creature must also make a Wisdom saving throw or take disadvantage on checks and saves of one ability score of your choice until the hex ends.
This ability does not stack with those of the Hex spell and can be ended with a Remove Curse spell, or if you choose to end it using a bonus action.

Level 10: Mettle
Once per short rest you can take a second reaction. You cannot use more than one reaction on the same turn.

Level 15: Aura of Unluck
When a hostile creature within 15' of you that you can see makes an attack, you can use your reaction to roll 1d6 and subtract the result from the creature's attack roll.

Level 18: Dire Curse
Your Hexblade Curse improves, lasting up to one hour, dealing 2d6 bonus damage and granting disadvantage on ability checks and saving throws for two abilities of your choice. A successful Wisdom saving throw negates the disadvantage to one of these abilities (target's choice).

[djreynolds]

I saw one table's house.

Hexblade do not get access to the eldritch blast cantrip.

I asked why? And this DM said... they can use charisma for both melee and ranged attacks.

Hexblade can use a longbow and greatsword.

I didn't agree at first because eldritch blast is synonymous with warlock. But.... It's an interesting house rule.

[da newt]

Not exactly on topic, but the Hexblade patron is also great for non-Pact of the Blade builds, especially for lower tiers.

[Millstone85]

The way I envisioned Hexblades for our home campaign setting has a revenant like aspect. You've struck a bargain with an entity that would have otherwise guided your soul to its final rest, this normally requires the death of the warlock in question but in exceptional cases a bargain could be struck while alive.By far my favourite version of the Shadowfell is from 4e Nentir Vale, where the plane serves as the antechamber of the afterlife. The Raven Queen is its chief psychopomp, as well as the main source of revenants. So much story potential!

4e FR could have integrated this by saying that the Spellplague merged the Fugue Plane with the Plane of Shadow. The Wall of the Faithless would have been destroyed in the process, with unclaimed souls instead being condemned to err amidst grey echoes of the mortal world. But no, they just made it a boring land of darkness designed by Shar. And to me, the 5e Shadowfell feels similarly empty.

So yes, I think reflavoring the Hexblade as a pact with the Grim Reaper would be awesome.

[Sception]

Sign a deal with a Demon/Fey/Cthulhu and you can have these mysterious powers.
or
Take this vaguely explained magical sword and murder everyone and everything just because you can.

It's not completely out of nowhere. Plenty of fantasy fiction of characters that draw dark powers from bargains with intelligent, usually cursed weapons, from malus darkblade to anri sonohara to the most obvious example elric or melnibone. It's not a bad concept for a warlock subclass, but the implementation was off, in no small part because of wizards insistance on not "fixing" published phb content with errata.

Instead if they think something is weak they prefer to publish overpowered supplemental material to try and make up the difference. Hexblade isnt the only offender, just the most noticeable. And it's noticeable specifically because the bladelock fix is concentrated all in one feature - "hex warrior" - which comes at level 1 despite being an improved version of a level 3 feature because patrons dont get features at level 3. Hex warrior is tacked onto what is otherwise a perfectly functional hex/curse/necromancy based warlock patron feature set. Remove hex warrior and hexblade is no longer overpowered, and works mechanically for pacts with hags or ghosts or grim reaper type patrons.

But its worth pointing out that blade pact is bad on its own, and did kind of need a fix, so if you're going to take hex warrior out of the hex blade you should at least consider adding it onto blade boon.


Of course the biggest problem with the whole bladelock concept is that while adding a little bit of magic to a martial class works fine, adding a little bit of martial to a magic class just doesnt. Look at valor bard, meant to be bard who mixes it up in melee. In practice it's just a casting bard like any other but with better AC. Or look at the bladesinger. Supposed to be a wizard who mixes it up in melee, but in practice it's just a wizard with better AC. Or look at any heavy armor cleric. Adding a bit of magic to a martial character can get you a character who mixes magic and weapon use in combat, but adding a bit of melee to a magic class mostly just gets you the same magic class, but with better AC, which effectively turns into more spells slots per day because they end up spending fewer in protective spells. Such subclasses are often quite powerful - if you ignore what they're trying to do and just stick to casting - but very bland.

So it is with the hexblade. Supposed to be a warlock who mixes it up in melee, and it even sorta can, but in practice it's better off blasting away with eldritch blast like any other warlock, only with, you guessed it, better AC.


The real needed fix isnt nerfing hexblade any more than it was buffing bladelock. The real fix would be ripping the bladelock concept out of warlock altogether, and re-packaging it as a stand alone half-pact-caster class related to warlock in the same way paladin is to cleric or ranger to druid.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I see Hexblade as better as blasters then melee.

[Tanarii]

It's not completely out of nowhere. Plenty of fantasy fiction of characters that draw dark powers from bargains with intelligent, usually cursed weapons, from malus darkblade to anri sonohara to the most obvious example elric or melnibone. It's not a bad concept for a warlock subclass, but the implementation was off, in no small part because of wizards insistance on not "fixing" published phb content with errata.
Who?

To be serious, I'm always surprised when young players know the name Elric. Even he's a small cult following now. But the simple truth is other than Elric, it's a niche corner archetype, it certainly didn't deserve to be an OP to the point of being broken warlock subclass.

[Keravath]

I see Hexblade as better as blasters then melee.

With the right feats a melee hexblade can outdamage agonizing blast but it takes some work.

PAM, GWM, use Shadow of Moil or Darkness+Devils Sight to obtain advantage on every attack. It does work and will outdamage a blaster based warklock. The character gets up to barbarian levels of melee damage (or more once Lifedrinker comes online at level 12) without the vulnerability of reckless attack. A fighter can have more attacks but also usually more difficulty generating advantage regularly on all their attacks.

P.S. I have a level 10 hexblade/1 shadow sorcerer that uses a build similar to this and it works reasonably well so I am speaking from experience rather than theory crafting.

[Luccan]

Funny thing about the Hexblade is that it's 3.5 predecesor is notoriously weak. And also was originally designed by one of the heads of 5e. So there may be a little favoritism at play.

[Pex]

Nothing in game forbids a Bladelock Hexblade from having Agonizing Eldritch Blast himself for those situations where a range attack is called for. It's good for the Bladelock to be able to handle himself well in both melee and range.

It is also not a requirement to deal the most damage possible. That's only a handicap in some people's heads. It's enough to contribute a fair share. I often find myself saying this regardless of what class is being talked about. Maybe it's just me, but I don't put much value in having the absolute best damage potential or else forget it.

[Sception]

Who?

To be serious, I'm always surprised when young players know the name Elric. Even he's a small cult following now. But the simple truth is other than Elric, it's a niche corner archetype, it certainly didn't deserve to be an OP to the point of being broken warlock subclass.

It's OPness has nothing to do with the concept, that's entirely down to wizard's attitude towards balance patching. As for the concept itself, it's common enough that a subclass isnt a terrible idea in principle. That's why I picked a few examples - elric for fantasy fiction olds, malus for wargaming grognards, anri for millenial weebs.

That last one is fairly relevant, as the "cursed intelligent weapon that tries to form a parasitic bond with a victim but ends up, willingly or not, in a mutually beneficial if still creepy and unnatural bond with a partner" is a rather common trope in anime and anime inspired fantasy shows & games. See Chrono Cross's Masamune, Wakfu's Rubilax, Soul Eater's Ragnarok. I'm sure there are more recent examples I'm just not familiar with.

Anime & anime influenced media, for as much garbage can be found there, has become a key entry point into fantasy gaming in general for the youngs and as such shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, imo. Bladelocks in general, even those not bound to cursed swords, probably owe quite a bit of their appeal to whole magical girl genre, sentai, etc.

From that perspective you could also point to the symbiotes from spiderman as a similar concept.
Given their alien origins you could call them old one patrons, but that again feeds into my thought that hexblade should be a class, not a subclass, with the same range of patrons as regular warlocks.


Again, I'm not saying the hexblade implementation is great. On a mechanical level a new subclass was not the right way to fix a pact boon, and frankly hexblade/bladelock needed to be a separate class altogether. From a narrative perspective, the lore is simultaneously way to specific and incredibly vague, and the raven queen connection in particular doesnt work since the 5e version of the queen herself is also kind of a mess.

[Addaran]

Most subclasses that allow a full caster to become a frontline fighter offer access to better armor, martial weapons, and Extra Attack. Valor Bard gains access to Medium Armor and Shields, Bladesingers can use Light Armor, ect., and they all gain Extra Attack at level 6. None of the available Pacts in the PHB do that, and instead you're left with a build that is supposed to be in the frontlines, since you can only summon melee weapons, but is stuck in Light Armor, doesn't gain an Extra Attack like normal, and has no real way of defending themselves if they're targeted, and they end up being MAD due to needing Charisma, Dexterity, and possibly Strength. They don't even get a way to put some distance between themselves and an enemy, like the Monk and Rogue get.


Thirsting Blade is a lvl 5 invocation that gives extra attack. It's even faster then valor bard and bladesinger. On another thread a few days ago, someone said the same thing. It's weird people forget it exist when it was pretty much the only reason to take pact of blade. ( +cha damage on only one attack would be ridiculously useless)

[Theodoxus]

The Hexblade is the Witcher in everything but name. It's for the whinetarded edgelords who think Drizzt isn't emo enough (or has simply worn out the title by becoming far too mainstream).

I wouldn't go so far as to make it it's own class - lord knows the Warlock is about as cut close to the bone with abilities as is - reducing their magical prowess to amp up their martial doesn't do it any service. I kinda groove to the fighter subclass (but then I think nearly everything could be a fighter subclass)...

I also REALLY like the idea of Hexblades being a servant to the death gods (ala Grim Reaper's) rather than a singular entity like the Raven Queen (despite her being the WotC version of the GR).

Bane's Hexblades would be quite different from Myrkul's, for instance. And both would be quite different from someone like Hades or Anubis.

Of course, if you really wanted to limit Hexblade dipping, you'd make it so all the Warlock abilities were tied to Warlock level. You might find people still dipping Paladin 2 for divine smites and a couple long rest spell slots, or Sorcerer 3 for MM and even more long rest spell slots - but at least Warlock would then end up the primary class (especially if you adopted the idea that EB isn't a cantrip, but Warlock ability and didn't improve beyond 1d10+AB (if taken) unless you get to 5th level Warlock.) You could always take FB for a d10 cantrip attack that improved on character level if you wanted.

It's been my contention for a long time that the best classes in the game are Cleric, Monk, Paladin and Warlock, with either Bard or Wizard as your 5th wheel. All the best mechanics and covering all the bases.

[Sception]

[COLOR=#0000ff]I wouldn't go so far as to make it it's own class - lord knows the Warlock is about as cut close to the bone with abilities as is - reducing their magical prowess to amp up their martial doesn't do it any service. I kinda groove to the fighter subclass (but then I think nearly everything could be a fighter subclass)...

Had I my own way, ripping out the bladelock wouldn't be the only change I'd make to the warlock class. Shifting the martial subclass out into its own thing also opens up space to expand the arcane cultist / mad scholar aspect of the dedicated casty warlock left behind. Make eldritch blast a class feature - that frees up a cantrip slot for more magical utility, and since every warlock will then have eldritch blast you can introduce more options that build off of it - more invocations for interesting variants, maybe even give each patron their own signature variant to the blast as subclass features. Advance the rate of pact magic slot acquisition a bit - grant 7 slots around 7th level, 4 slots around 13th. Expand mystic arcana - it does a good enough job of letting you cast a limited number of high level spells late game, but it could also be used to solve another problem walocks have as casters - as their pact slots increase in level they effectively lose access to low level utility spells. A few low level mystic arcana would help fill that gap. More casty power, but no martial subclass, maybe smaller hit die, maybe remove the light armor proficiency.

Meanwhile hexblade becomes its own half-pact-caster class. Literally half speed progression of pact slots - stacking with warlock levels for multiclass hexblade/warlocks. No mystic arcana - high or low level. No cantrips, no eldritch blast. Gear proficiencies, skills, saves, and hit dice appropriate for a martial character. something similar in style and mechanical feel to the Profane Soul subclass of Matt Mercer's Blood Hunter class. Subclasses would include the same set of patrons as warlocks, but with subclass abilities related to martial combat, maybe signature pact weapon variations & smite abilities.


I also REALLY like the idea of Hexblades being a servant to the death gods (ala Grim Reaper's) rather than a singular entity like the Raven Queen (despite her being the WotC version of the GR).

I like this idea also. In 4e core setting the Raven Queen was a death goddess served by her own class of dark angels who sort of filled a grim reaper type role, and they make much better patrons for hexblade pacts than the too-specific-yet-too-vague canon hexblade lore. Or in Ravnica souls of the dead in general are managed by the Orzhov guild, basically grim reapers, loan sharks, and an organized religious hierarchy all in one, and their ghostly board of directors / council of cardinals make particularly good alternative patrons for hexblade warlocks. At least, in Ravnica games.

Unfortunately, in most D&D settings and indeed 5e D&D in general there really just isn't any equivalent of a grim reaper creature or class of creatures. There are devils, demons, angels, and ghosts. Outsiders and Aberrations of all sorts are a standard part of the D&D monster manual lineup and thus an obligatory part of all but the most non-standard D&D setting cosmology, something core mechanics can safely rely on the existence of. Maybe demons and devils work differently in Eberron, but they still exist so they can still make pacts with mortals. Grim reapers, though? Some sort of spirit tasked with escorting souls of the dead to the correct afterlife, collecting them by force if they're reluctant, protecting them from soul-hungry extraplanar entities that might otherwise prey upon them on the way? No. It really sounds like something that *should* be a standard D&D thing, right? But it isn't, and since there are no reapers in D&D wizards can't officially publish a walock subclass that pacts with them.

[sithlordnergal]

Thirsting Blade is a lvl 5 invocation that gives extra attack. It's even faster then valor bard and bladesinger. On another thread a few days ago, someone said the same thing. It's weird people forget it exist when it was pretty much the only reason to take pact of blade. ( +cha damage on only one attack would be ridiculously useless)

So, there's a reason why I didn't mention thirsting blade...because I absolutely did think about it. The reason is that Thirsting Blade is an Invocation, and not a very good one at that. And while yes, you could snag it at level 5, you only get 3 Invocations at level 5, and Thirsting Blade really isn't that great. You are far better off skipping Thirsting Blade and just using Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast, Devil's Sight or Armor of Shadows, and taking something better. Were I to do a redesign for Pact of the Blade, I'd remove Thirsting Blade entirely and just give Pact of the Blade Extra Attack at level 6.

[Dork_Forge]

So, there's a reason why I didn't mention thirsting blade...because I absolutely did think about it. The reason is that Thirsting Blade is an Invocation, and not a very good one at that. And while yes, you could snag it at level 5, you only get 3 Invocations at level 5, and Thirsting Blade really isn't that great. You are far better off skipping Thirsting Blade and just using Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast, Devil's Sight or Armor of Shadows, and taking something better. Were I to do a redesign for Pact of the Blade, I'd remove Thirsting Blade entirely and just give Pact of the Blade Extra Attack at level 6.

That doesn't follow the design of the Warlock though, pacts only give I hereby benefits at 3rd. Any other benefits, level gated or not, are accessed through invocations. If you're going for melee then Thirsting Blade isn't a bad invocation at all and at 5th level a pre Xanathar's Bladelock was on par with straight d10 classes.

[Sir_Leorik]

I have a player in my campaign who is planning to add Hexblade to this crazy MC combo he has going. I am thinking of making the following changes to the front-loaded class features:


Hexblade's Curse: The bonus to damage only applies to melee weapon attacks.
Hexblade's Curse: The critical range only applies to melee weapon attacks.


I feel that with these two changes to Hexblade's Curse the subclass becomes balanced and does what it was intended to do, namely fix the Pact of the Blade, rather than be a bonus for blasting Eldritch Blasts.

[micahaphone]

Another common suggestion I see is to take half of the level 1 features from the Hexblade patron and move them over onto the Pact of the Blade. Taking Pact of the Blade now gives you medium armor, shields, and you can attack with your charisma stat. This takes hexblade from "well, I wanna play a melee warlock so I gotta use hexblade as the patron" to "hey I'm actually interested in the flavor of the patron".

[follacchioso]

I wonder if things would be more balanced if warlocks used Int or Wis as spell casting ability.

The main problem with the Hexblade is that many people multi class into it from paladin, sorcerers and bards, because they all use charisma.

However, if warlocks used Wisdom instead of charisma, there it would be fewer multi class combos - with druids, clerics and rangers. But I don't think these would be as much as effective as the paladin/warlock.

[diplomancer]

Another common suggestion I see is to take half of the level 1 features from the Hexblade patron and move them over onto the Pact of the Blade. Taking Pact of the Blade now gives you medium armor, shields, and you can attack with your charisma stat. This takes hexblade from "well, I wanna play a melee warlock so I gotta use hexblade as the patron" to "hey I'm actually interested in the flavor of the patron".

This would be the best solution, which probably wasn't used because WotC is VERY reluctant to "patch" a problem via updates to the original text if they can solve it in another way (like making a new subclass).


I wonder if things would be more balanced if warlocks used Int or Wis as spell casting ability.

The main problem with the Hexblade is that many people multi class into it from paladin, sorcerers and bards, because they all use charisma.

However, if warlocks used Wisdom instead of charisma, there it would be fewer multi class combos - with druids, clerics and rangers. But I don't think these would be as much as effective as the paladin/warlock.

You forgot monks. A hexblade (wis) monk could focus on Wis at first, improving his attacks and save DCs simultaneously, as well as having a far better ranged option than natively.

Also, wis is a more generally useful stat than cha (since wisdom saves are more common, and Perception is the One Skill to Rule Them All). A rogue would love focusing on wis AND getting an expanded crit range at the cost of a one level dip (not to mention having 4 chances of a crit at level 17 with agonizing eldritch blast).

If you ARE going to change the Warlock spell casting ability, it would probably be better to change it to Intelligence, not to Wisdom.

[Addaran]

So, there's a reason why I didn't mention thirsting blade...because I absolutely did think about it. The reason is that Thirsting Blade is an Invocation, and not a very good one at that. And while yes, you could snag it at level 5, you only get 3 Invocations at level 5, and Thirsting Blade really isn't that great. You are far better off skipping Thirsting Blade and just using Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast, Devil's Sight or Armor of Shadows, and taking something better. Were I to do a redesign for Pact of the Blade, I'd remove Thirsting Blade entirely and just give Pact of the Blade Extra Attack at level 6.

In that case, why are you even choosing Pact of Blade, fashion statement of your pact weapon at your hip that you'll never use? The only time it will ever be used is for attack of opportunity and it doesn't make a difference then tome or chain unless the enemy is resistant/immune to normal damage.

If you play a Pact of Blade warlock, it's because you want to be melee or gish and you won't be just using Eldritch Blast. Thirsting Blade is great if you're going melee, at least until SCAG happenned. Then it depends on your exact lvl and how reliably you get the secondary effect of GDB or BB. If you take Lifedrinker, more attacks means for +cha damage.

[Millstone85]

In that case, why are you even choosing Pact of Blade, fashion statement of your pact weapon at your hip that you'll never use?This might speak more against Blade than for it. Say you took Chain but not VotCM, or Tome but not BoAS. I think that would be a waste, but not to the point of reducing your grimoire or familiar to a fashion statement.

[Addaran]

This might speak more against Blade than for it. Say you took Chain but not VotCM, or Tome but not BoAS. I think that would be a waste, but not to the point of reducing your grimoire or familiar to a fashion statement.

Because those other pacts actually give something to your character. Cantrips or a familiar. Pact of blade just gives a weapon, which is useless if you only ever use EB.

If you take tome and pick firebolt, ray of frost and produce flame but never use any of them because Agonizing EB is just mechanically superior, then yes a tome would be pretty much a fashion statement.

Familar is hard to make into a pure fashion statement because at worst, he's giving you another perception check. I guess if you always keep it in a pocket dimension for fear of him dying, then why did you pick Chain.


PS I do aggree that Tome without BoAS is just silly. Cantrips are awesome, but being able to have all rituals is just so amazing. VotCM is really cool and i'd definitively take it, but it's not the same lvl of OP and could see someone prefering other invocations, at least until later.

[Teaguethebean]

You forgot monks. A hexblade (wis) monk could focus on Wis at first, improving his attacks and save DCs simultaneously, as well as having a far better ranged option than natively.

One big thing though is if the monk wants to male use of flurry of blows or just the bonus action attack to begin with you need a good dex.

[sithlordnergal]

In that case, why are you even choosing Pact of Blade, fashion statement of your pact weapon at your hip that you'll never use? The only time it will ever be used is for attack of opportunity and it doesn't make a difference then tome or chain unless the enemy is resistant/immune to normal damage.

If you play a Pact of Blade warlock, it's because you want to be melee or gish and you won't be just using Eldritch Blast. Thirsting Blade is great if you're going melee, at least until SCAG happenned. Then it depends on your exact lvl and how reliably you get the secondary effect of GDB or BB. If you take Lifedrinker, more attacks means for +cha damage.

Well that's the thing, Pact of the Blade was considered the worst option out of all the Pacts until it got support from Hexblade. You generally didn't see people recommending it for builds, and it was generally seen as a poor choice on guides before Xanathar's came out. So unless you really wanted that flavor, you went with Pact of the Chain or Pact of the Tome, and those who took Pact of the Blade did so knowing they were choosing a far weaker option.

And while Thirsting Blade seems great on paper, its really not...especially when you compare it to the other Warlock options and invocations. Yeah, its there...but its simply not a good invocation.

[sithlordnergal]

That doesn't follow the design of the Warlock though, pacts only give I hereby benefits at 3rd. Any other benefits, level gated or not, are accessed through invocations. If you're going for melee then Thirsting Blade isn't a bad invocation at all and at 5th level a pre Xanathar's Bladelock was on par with straight d10 classes.

So, there's actually a reason I'd break that particular mold. As it stands, I'd say Pact of the Blade is the weakest option, even with Hexblade. Pact of the Chain gives you Find Familiar, extra Familiar options, and the ability for your Familiar to make attacks, which is something no other Familiar can do.

Pact of the Tome nets you three cantrips of your choice from any class you like, those cantrips don't have to be from the same class, and they all use charisma to be cast. This is basically the Bard's Magical Secrets, only limited to cantrips...which isn't exactly that limiting since most cantrips scale from level 1 to 20, and there are some very powerful cantrips out there. You can grab things like Shillelagh, which when you mix that with PAM you end up with a build equal to a standard PHB Pact of the Blade, Thorn Whip, which is a melee cantrip with 30ft range, doesn't require line of sight, and pulls a creature that is Large or smaller 10ft closer to you with no save, or Guidance, which is a pretty helpful cantrip for ability checks.

And that's not even including Invocations. Where as Pact of the Blade gets Thirsting Blade and Lifedrinker, neither of which are that great in my book, Pact of the Tome has Book of Ancient Secrets, which is just...nuts. It not only lets you cast Ritual Spells, but it lets you automatically learn two Ritual Spells from any spell list in the game, and you can copy any Ritual spell from any class as long as its level is half of your warlock level. So as long as you find some scrolls, you can get every Ritual spell that the Wizard, Cleric, Bard, Paladin, Rogue, and Druid get...its basically a Wizard's spell book but better.

At the same time Pact of the Chain get Chains of Carceri, which is a nice Hold Monster at will, though it only works on Celestials, Fiends, or Elementals, and Voice of the Chain Master, which removes the limit on how far your familiar can be from you in order to see through its senses, and you can speak through it. Considering that you don't need to see the spot when you go to resummon your familiar after temporarily dismissing it, you can use an invisible imp to scout an entire area without ever opening a door and talk to those on the other side.

And finally, as for Thirsting Blade letting you be on par with other d10 classes...it actually doesn't. Though in this case its kind of an issue shared with all the standard full caster GISH subclasses. The reason for this is that the GISH subclasses only get a single extra attack, and have no way of adding extra damage to those hits. If you look at the melee classes, they all have some special way of adding more "omph" to their strikes. Fighters gain more attacks, Rogues have Sneak Attack, Paladins have Smite, Monks have a more attacks and Ki features, and Barbarians gain Rage bonus damage on top of resistance to damage.

Valor Bards and Pact of the Blade Warlocks lack that special "omph", meaning they can really only make two attacks every round. While this works fine in Tier 2, you eventually reach the point where you're just better off casting spells. Valor Bards do have it slightly better, because they can eventually cast a Bard spell and make a single attack with the same action, and can take one of the Smite spells at level 10.

[KorvinStarmast]

I've been in several warlock discussions where the first thing someone says is,
"You should play a Hexblade."
:confused:
Why does the Hexblade exist?
What supplement did it come from?
If they had added an invocation to add medium armor proficiency so that a pact of the blade warlock could do that (remember, feats are optional) we'd not have ever needed Hexblade. It was in XGtE, and was an overcorrection for the "not quite right" pact of the blade package.

[Dork_Forge]

So, there's actually a reason I'd break that particular mold. As it stands, I'd say Pact of the Blade is the weakest option, even with Hexblade. Pact of the Chain gives you Find Familiar, extra Familiar options, and the ability for your Familiar to make attacks, which is something no other Familiar can do.

Pact of the Tome nets you three cantrips of your choice from any class you like, those cantrips don't have to be from the same class, and they all use charisma to be cast. This is basically the Bard's Magical Secrets, only limited to cantrips...which isn't exactly that limiting since most cantrips scale from level 1 to 20, and there are some very powerful cantrips out there. You can grab things like Shillelagh, which when you mix that with PAM you end up with a build equal to a standard PHB Pact of the Blade, Thorn Whip, which is a melee cantrip with 30ft range, doesn't require line of sight, and pulls a creature that is Large or smaller 10ft closer to you with no save, or Guidance, which is a pretty helpful cantrip for ability checks.

And that's not even including Invocations. Where as Pact of the Blade gets Thirsting Blade and Lifedrinker, neither of which are that great in my book, Pact of the Tome has Book of Ancient Secrets, which is just...nuts. It not only lets you cast Ritual Spells, but it lets you automatically learn two Ritual Spells from any spell list in the game, and you can copy any Ritual spell from any class as long as its level is half of your warlock level. So as long as you find some scrolls, you can get every Ritual spell that the Wizard, Cleric, Bard, Paladin, Rogue, and Druid get...its basically a Wizard's spell book but better.

At the same time Pact of the Chain get Chains of Carceri, which is a nice Hold Monster at will, though it only works on Celestials, Fiends, or Elementals, and Voice of the Chain Master, which removes the limit on how far your familiar can be from you in order to see through its senses, and you can speak through it. Considering that you don't need to see the spot when you go to resummon your familiar after temporarily dismissing it, you can use an invisible imp to scout an entire area without ever opening a door and talk to those on the other side.

And finally, as for Thirsting Blade letting you be on par with other d10 classes...it actually doesn't. Though in this case its kind of an issue shared with all the standard full caster GISH subclasses. The reason for this is that the GISH subclasses only get a single extra attack, and have no way of adding extra damage to those hits. If you look at the melee classes, they all have some special way of adding more "omph" to their strikes. Fighters gain more attacks, Rogues have Sneak Attack, Paladins have Smite, Monks have a more attacks and Ki features, and Barbarians gain Rage bonus damage on top of resistance to damage.

Valor Bards and Pact of the Blade Warlocks lack that special "omph", meaning they can really only make two attacks every round. While this works fine in Tier 2, you eventually reach the point where you're just better off casting spells. Valor Bards do have it slightly better, because they can eventually cast a Bard spell and make a single attack with the same action, and can take one of the Smite spells at level 10.

Taking Shillelagh and PAM is not the same as getting Thirsting Blade on a Bladelock, you've burned an ASI and tie up your bonus action to use it. On the first turn a Bladelock can cast Hex and make two attacks, meanwhile you're not making a bonus attack with PAM until turn 2 IF you already have Shillelagh precast.

3 cantrips is nice, but since Pact Magic is so restricting it basically just boosts your casting a bit for the "I'm the best caster" pact. How amazing BoAS is entirely campaign dependent, if you're not finding scrolls then you're not going to get the mileage out of it. I like Voice of the Chain Master but Chains of Carceri never struck me as good, it's at will, limited to certain creature types (neither of which is Beast, Monstrosity or Humanoid) and can only be used on a specific creature once a day and it's level gated to 15th level. If you actually get that high in a campaign how often will that invocation actually get used unless it's a Hell specific game etc?

Actually it does keep you on par because Warlocks have Hex to boost their damage throughout a fight, if you're looking post Xanathar's then there's also Improved Pact Weapon and Eldritch Smite. If you gear your invocations towards melee then I'm not really seeing how Bladelocks fall behind in Tiers 1 and 2 at all, and even later they mostly just fall behind in health (but earlier in game Fiendish Vigor more than negates the hit die/Con mod difference). When you start to get up there in levels you get access to Life Drinker for a pretty good constant buff to damage and especially after Improved Pact weapon a Bladelock has the option of going GWM/SS if they really want to. The biggest issue with Bladelocks was really just their MADness (though going Dex helped with that), they never fell behind much if at all in the damage department compared to other martials and since IPW and ES came out they don't really have any issues keeping up.

[jas61292]

Here's the thing. Warlock is a caster class. It is not a melee class. Pact of the Blade and its associated invocations are basically there to allow a character to be competent should they get caught up in melee. At best, it is somewhat like the Valor Bard or Bladesinger in that regard - a caster that's not totally afraid of having an enemy fighter all up in thier space. But even still, they are a caster first and foremost.

However, a number of people wanted to pretend that they were less like a Valor Bard and more like an Eldritch Knight. A melee character that happens to have spells. Ignoring, of course, the fact that the warlock innately is a "full caster" with 9th level spells.

The Hexblade is what happens when you design a subclass with the goal of letting warlock be a full martial character, while conveniently ignoring that they are already a full magic class. And you do it without locking some of its more powerful stuff to weapon attacks, conveniently making it great for non martial characters as well.

While I don't play at a table that is full of heavy optimization, and we usually allow any printed subclasses, so long as it fits in the world narratively, hexblade is the one subclass we ban. It's power level is completely and totally out of whack for its class, and is total multiclass cheese. It's a real shame, because a melee focused subclass could have been good, but only if they had accepted it would be a Bladesinger and not a Battlemaster.

[Nagog]

The Hexboade is what occurs when the Devs don’t realize that a mistake made in the PHB should be fixed in errata, and not in a new subclass.

To be fair, when was the last time that a DM (AL included) referenced any sort of Errata when in favor of the player? Publishing it as a subclass ensures that the fix gets out there and is noticed.

[Amechra]

Honestly, the biggest issue with the Pact of the Blade is that it takes an Action to "draw" your weapon. So if you don't have it out, you have to waste your turn getting ready. That's... all kinds of garbage.

[Segev]

Personally, I think the purpose of the Hexblade is better served by adding invocations and making one minor change to the Warlock class overall: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?587734-Turning-the-Hexblade-quot-Patron-quot-into-modular-powers

[MrStabby]

To be fair, when was the last time that a DM (AL included) referenced any sort of Errata when in favor of the player? Publishing it as a subclass ensures that the fix gets out there and is noticed.

Two weeks ago on Thursday for me.

[Dork_Forge]

Honestly, the biggest issue with the Pact of the Blade is that it takes an Action to "draw" your weapon. So if you don't have it out, you have to waste your turn getting ready. That's... all kinds of garbage.

Unless I'm remembering wrong it takes an action to create or summon your weapon, unless you needed to hide it you'd just wear it like a weapon and draw it with your interact with object like anyone else.

[J-H]

This thread has convinced me to push for the medium armor + shield proficiency to be moved to Blade Pact (from Hexblade) in future games.

[Pex]

This thread has convinced me to push for the medium armor + shield proficiency to be moved to Blade Pact (from Hexblade) in future games.

The problem with this idea is you don't get Blade Pact until level 3, so for levels 1 and 2 you still have your poor AC not wanting to be in melee when you wanted to play as such. Hexblade isn't perfect either since despite the proficiency you don't start with medium armor and shield if you go by preset starting equipment. In comparison heavy armor domain clerics get chainmail. You need DM fiat to get the armor or roll for gold and hope you can afford the scale mail. I understand the desire of this idea and don't object, but it is a warlock problem that those who want to be melee warlocks can't do so until 3rd level (house rule) or have enough gold (Hexblade).

[diplomancer]

The problem with this idea is you don't get Blade Pact until level 3, so for levels 1 and 2 you still have your poor AC not wanting to be in melee when you wanted to play as such. Hexblade isn't perfect either since despite the proficiency you don't start with medium armor and shield if you go by preset starting equipment. In comparison heavy armor domain clerics get chainmail. You need DM fiat to get the armor or roll for gold and hope you can afford the scale mail. I understand the desire of this idea and don't object, but it is a warlock problem that those who want to be melee warlocks can't do so until 3rd level (house rule) or have enough gold (Hexblade).

1- so does the valor bard and the swords bard (bladesingers are slightly better, at level 2)
2- there is no rule that demands characters start at level 1. Unless I'm mistaken, the recommendation from the devs is that they start at level 3, unless the players themselves are beginners.
3- expected time to level up from 1 to 3 is 2-3 sessions. It's ok to wait that to get an upgrade and change your character's role in combat.

This houserule would accomplish 2 positive things:
1- allow for pact of the blade warlocks that are not hexblades.
2- disencourage hexblade dipping.

[Luccan]

I'm in favor of the houserule, but I'd probably let Hexblades start with Shield proficiency at least. They're clearly intended to do some work up-front at level 1 and light armor, simple weapons, shield-less is pretty rough going. Plus, I would think we want to allow for the possibility of some non-Blade pact Hexblades (weird as it may sound).

[Amechra]

Unless I'm remembering wrong it takes an action to create or summon your weapon, unless you needed to hide it you'd just wear it like a weapon and draw it with your interact with object like anyone else.

I understand that... but that's pretty disappointing, honestly. If you could pull your weapon out of thin air as an object interaction, it'd at least have a niche as a "concealed" weapon.

[Dork_Forge]

I understand that... but that's pretty disappointing, honestly. If you could pull your weapon out of thin air as an object interaction, it'd at least have a niche as a "concealed" weapon.

It can still fill that niche outside of combat (where concealing a weapon might actually matter) and you just summon it before things go down, after you get past security etc. It may be disappointing to some conceptually, but it's hardly a mechanical issue with the pact.

[Sception]

Another common suggestion I see is to take half of the level 1 features from the Hexblade patron and move them over onto the Pact of the Blade. Taking Pact of the Blade now gives you medium armor, shields, and you can attack with your charisma stat. This takes hexblade from "well, I wanna play a melee warlock so I gotta use hexblade as the patron" to "hey I'm actually interested in the flavor of the patron".

Just move the whole hex warrior feature over, and yeah that's the quickest fix, makes bladelocks relatively functional for any patron, and removes some of the pressure on hexblades specifically to go blade pact. You should probably also make the bonus damage from hexblade's curse scale with warlock level rather than proficiency bonus.

If doing this I'd also recommend changing the fluff of hexblades to bind with forbidden & cursed items in general rather than weapons specifically to better fit with hex non-blades. Something like 'some items are so cursed and dangerous that the gods themselves exiled them from creation, but even in the void of nonexistance they cannot truly be destroyed and still reach out to form pacts with mortals'. This wouldn't mandate the half hearted raven queen connection - though would still allow for it if the player wanted it. Would also allow for pacts with non-weapon cursed objects to better fit with non-blade pacts. Alternatively, ditch the weapon thing entirely and have the pact be made with curse themed creatures like hags or death themed creatures like grim reapers - should your game have some version of them.

If you change the lore, you might also tinker a bit with the spell list - perhaps removing the smite spells for more cursey stuff - but that's probably getting deeper into the weeds than you'd want with this quick and easy fix.


Hexblade would still be a relatively popular patron mechanically, since damage is always popular and hexblade's curse is an easy way to add damage where most other first level patron features are more defensive or utility in nature. That said, it isn't out of scale in overall power with the other patrons' benefits on its own, without hex warrior. Bladelock would have an actual choice of patrons, hexblades wouldn't have to feel thematically forced into bladelocking. Warlock would still be a very popular multiclass for cha gishes, paladins in particular, but they'd have to go three levels deep to get cha to weapon attacks instead of just one, which would make it a much more significant investment with a much heavier impact on the overall feel of their characters. 3 levels for cha melee shouldn't be unreasonable as a dip, particularly since you could already do that before hexblade via tomelock shillelagh.

There are more time consuming fixes that would probably be better - making hexblades a separate class with a full range of patrons, replacing "cha to attack" with a melee version of eldritch blast when using a weapon as a spellcasting implement, etc. But that's a lot of effort when the quick patch works well enough.


Honestly, even the quick patch isn't exactly needed. Just allowing hexblades as is isn't the end of the world. Warlocks aren't that great to begin with, just some ranged blasty with actually rather limited spellcasting support for a "full" caster. You can get more or less the same thing out of a ranged fighter build with less hassle - and they come with better armor and proficiencies and better hp. Even with all the support a hexblade has for melee, they're still spending almost all of their invocations just to tread water with what eldritch blast gets out of a single invocation, and while hexblade gets higher AC, if you're blasting away at range it isn't all that necessary and the other patrons get some nice utility stuff of their own.

Even as a multiclass dip it's not all that big a deal. A paladin who takes only one level is still going to be facing a significant damage penalty vs. GWM, paladin smites don't care about charisma at all, and the best paladin spells - the ones worth giving up smites for - mostly don't either. At least, not unless you're playing a conqueror, and they're the paladin subclass that's *least* inclined to multiclass out in the first place.

Hexblade even as is won't break your game, but yeah, if you're at all nervous about it then an easy fix, and far better than banning, is to just move the entire hex warrior feature to pact of the blade.

[Nagog]

I understand that... but that's pretty disappointing, honestly. If you could pull your weapon out of thin air as an object interaction, it'd at least have a niche as a "concealed" weapon.


It can still fill that niche outside of combat (where concealing a weapon might actually matter) and you just summon it before things go down, after you get past security etc. It may be disappointing to some conceptually, but it's hardly a mechanical issue with the pact.

I can kinda sorta see why it's an action to summon the weapon, as if it were a bonus action it would compete with Hex, but not having it cost something action wise could allow for a weapon throw spam (except now Artificers can give that with an Infusion). However I'd consider it to be similar to Shardblades for those who have read Sanderson's Stormlight Archive: the time is based on your heartbeat. In battle, your adrenaline beats your heart faster and you can summon it as a bonus action/free action/move action/whatever you see fit, however at rest it takes 6 seconds.

[Luccan]

I can kinda sorta see why it's an action to summon the weapon, as if it were a bonus action it would compete with Hex, but not having it cost something action wise could allow for a weapon throw spam (except now Artificers can give that with an Infusion). However I'd consider it to be similar to Shardblades for those who have read Sanderson's Stormlight Archive: the time is based on your heartbeat. In battle, your adrenaline beats your heart faster and you can summon it as a bonus action/free action/move action/whatever you see fit, however at rest it takes 6 seconds.

Given that the difference in time for actions, bonus actions, and full-round actions only matters in combat, it doesn't make much sense to have it change action type outside battle. You can say it takes shorter or longer because you're not fighting, but that doesn't have any impact if you aren't in a fight.

[Azuresun]

I think the flavor is really wrong.

All other patrons are categories. The Archfey could be any archfey, the Fiend could be any strong enough fiend, etc. But the Hexblade is described as an unique entity, that may or may not be an alias of the Raven Queen. This feels so needlessly restrictive, and at the same time much too vague.

Also, the book speaks of sentient weapons that the Hexblade manifests into, but offers no advice on how to involve those in a warlock's backstory. Does Blackrazor, or another weapon of shadows, have to act as a proxy for the Hexblade? And if yes, why aren't you wielding that weapon?

I think most people are going to use the UA version of the lore, where the sentient weapon itself is your patron. The last question could be answered with the weapon calling to the warlock, telling them to find it, or with the weapon being mundane in the hands of a low-level adventurer.

The intent behind it is basically to emulate Elric of Melnibone and Stormbringer. It's well worth reading the original stories, but the essence is this--Elric makes a pact with the intelligent soul-eating sword Stormbringer (which is in itself an agent of Arioch, the demonic Lord of Chaos), where it gives him the strength he needs to both triumph and survive against his own poor health and weakness, but the sword manipulates him into advancing Arioch's cause.

It's a cool story, certainly cooler than "he found a cursed sword and made a pact with it and then immediately became a paladin because he got more plusses that way".

[ProsecutorGodot]

The intent behind it is basically to emulate Elric of Melnibone and Stormbringer. It's well worth reading the original stories, but the essence is this--Elric makes a pact with the intelligent soul-eating sword Stormbringer (which is in itself an agent of Arioch, the demonic Lord of Chaos), where it gives him the strength he needs to both triumph and survive against his own poor health and weakness, but the sword manipulates him into advancing Arioch's cause.

It's a cool story, certainly cooler than "he found a cursed sword and made a pact with it and then immediately became a paladin because he got more plusses that way".

It doesn't carry that intent well if that is what it's really intended to emulate, what we get in the book is "make a pact with the nameless force that made this sentient weapon, I hope your sentient weapon was made in the shadowfel though because that's where this patron sources its power and you're not actually bonded with the weapon you're bonded with the thing that made it, which there might only be one of and it's probably the Raven Queen but we won't tell you." Heck, as written there's no need for any weapon to be involved at all, you just have to somehow make a pact with this entity and ask for the Hexblade special.

It's written as if Elric had made his pact directly with Arioch, except he doesn't get to know what Arioch is. Stormbringer would never have to have been involved at all in this equation, in fact if we used the awful blurb out of the book he just makes a facsimile of Stormbringer that Arioch would have directly manipulated him through.

[Azuresun]

It doesn't carry that intent well if that is what it's really intended to emulate, what we get in the book is "make a pact with the nameless force that made this sentient weapon, I hope your sentient weapon was made in the shadowfel though because that's where this patron sources its power and you're not actually bonded with the weapon you're bonded with the thing that made it, which there might only be one of and it's probably the Raven Queen but we won't tell you." Heck, as written there's no need for any weapon to be involved at all, you just have to somehow make a pact with this entity and ask for the Hexblade special.

It's written as if Elric had made his pact directly with Arioch, except he doesn't get to know what Arioch is. Stormbringer would never have to have been involved at all in this equation, in fact if we used the awful blurb out of the book he just makes a facsimile of Stormbringer that Arioch would have directly manipulated him through.

Not disagreeing with any of that, just explaining the inspiration to someone who didn't seem familiar with it. I do also wish that there was more explanation of what the weapons were and who made them, and how they might affect their bearers--as is, it's "be a warlock, but you don't have to serve anyone", which removes another possible constraint from using the class for flavour-less optimisation.