Okay, is it just me...

[danielxcutter]

Or is the CR for this (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E64Z4pZVXbkknXMUFhyFCx_t63Oc87ryqzjdoa-uFGY/edit?usp=sharing) kind of outta whack?

I had an idea to have a considerably powerful Zeitgeist in a city - probably not for actual use, I just did it for fun mostly.

Then I looked again at the stats and was like "okay what?"

Honestly, in general the CR for the Zeitgeist just looks like it's kinda overblown in general... I only just advanced one to 32 HD(they normally have 20) and adjusted CR(normally 23) according to the rules. And chose some feats that might help, but either way I don't think it's just a problem with advancement.

Was there an errata for Cityscape that fixes their base CR or something? Because this probably isn't CR 27.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's mostly because fey HD are crap. And CR not being all that accurate to begin with.

If you want to make it a threat appropriate to its CR i'd replace some of the SLA's with more threatening ones and give it levels in sorcerer instead of advancing by HD, and even then it's a stretch.

[danielxcutter]

It's mostly because fey HD are crap. And CR not being all that accurate to begin with.

If you want to make it a threat appropriate to its CR i'd replace some of the SLA's with more threatening ones and give it levels in sorcerer instead of advancing by HD, and even then it's a stretch.

I'm not even sure if it's just because of fey HD are bad, because the attack bonus, while low, isn't the real problem for me(especially since it has a bunch of at-will SLAs and it doesn't even have to manifest to use them). The real problem is the abysmally low AC.

Sorcerer levels won't help much either, because it'll only have 8 of them for the same CR.

[Asmotherion]

I'm not even sure if it's just because of fey HD are bad, because the attack bonus, while low, isn't the real problem for me(especially since it has a bunch of at-will SLAs and it doesn't even have to manifest to use them). The real problem is the abysmally low AC.

Sorcerer levels won't help much either, because it'll only have 8 of them for the same CR.

no offence, but if you don't consider an 8th level sorcerer a significant power boost you either know 3.5 too well or not well enough. :p

[danielxcutter]

no offence, but if you don't consider an 8th level sorcerer a significant power boost you either know 3.5 too well or not well enough. :p

Not much as in "not enough". This is supposed to be a CR 27 monster; I'm genuinely surprised it doesn't at least have 7th or 8th level SLAs.

[Zombimode]

The higher you get in the CR scale the harder it becomes to assign a appropriate CR value. This is mainly because what is actually challanging / dangerous at higher levels isn't always a matter of numbers. In other words: raw numbers can be misleading at higher levels. This is in some capacity always the case, it just gets more noticable at higher levels.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'm not even sure if it's just because of fey HD are bad, because the attack bonus, while low, isn't the real problem for me(especially since it has a bunch of at-will SLAs and it doesn't even have to manifest to use them). The real problem is the abysmally low AC.

Sorcerer levels won't help much either, because it'll only have 8 of them for the same CR.

The AC really isn't the problem imo. It's a flying, incorporeal, invisible caster. Or it should be, because it sure won't accomplish anything in melee.

The big problem i see is that it has no offensive power at all. It's hardly a credible threat to a level 15 party, let alone a level 27 one.
It has some BFC at its disposal, but going up against epic level opponents with Produce Flame and Call Lightning isn't going to get you very far.

And i did say it's a stretch. The base creature is terrible, so there's not really much you can do. At least with 8 sorcerer levels it won't die to a level 10 party. Probably.
It won't ever threaten anything remotely near its CR in melee and its SLA's are limited to delaying and annoying. With no other casting or special abilities to fall back on it's just a big hp sponge.
It can't even make a credible non-combat threat with those skills and SLA's. It's basically a plot device, not a viable challenge for the PCs.

[danielxcutter]

The higher you get in the CR scale the harder it becomes to assign a appropriate CR value. This is mainly because what is actually challanging / dangerous at higher levels isn't always a matter of numbers. In other words: raw numbers can be misleading at higher levels. This is in some capacity always the case, it just gets more noticable at higher levels.

This is true, yes - the Phane doesn't have that big numbers, but it has some ridiculous abilities that don't translate directly to numbers. I mean, how would you put "literally can't lose if the opponent can't kill it in 4 rounds" into numbers?

Still, you need some numbers. The Zeitgeist doesn't have any of those, aside from maybe a good casting levels for the SLAs.


The AC really isn't the problem imo. It's a flying, incorporeal, invisible caster. Or it should be, because it sure won't accomplish anything in melee.

The big problem i see is that it has no offensive power at all. It's hardly a credible threat to a level 15 party, let alone a level 27 one.
It has some BFC at its disposal, but going up against epic level opponents with Produce Flame and Call Lightning isn't going to get you very far.

And i did say it's a stretch. The base creature is terrible, so there's not really much you can do. At least with 8 sorcerer levels it won't die to a level 10 party. Probably.
It won't ever threaten anything remotely near its CR in melee and its SLA's are limited to delaying and annoying. With no other casting or special abilities to fall back on it's just a big hp sponge.
It can't even make a credible non-combat threat with those skills and SLA's. It's basically a plot device, not a viable challenge for the PCs.

Yeah, it's mostly about the base creature being bad. What would be a more accurate CR?

[DeTess]

Honestly, if you want to use a Zeitgeist, I'd use the fluff of one and make it more of an environmental feature rather than something with actual stats. I've used one to good effect in a short campaign set in a ruined city, where the Zeitgeist occupied the former mages college and was messing around with stuff, creating the illusion that it was still occupied and business as usual and all that. The PC's goal was simply to get some information and an artifact there, though they ended up communicating with the Zeitgeist once they figured out what was going on and essentially offered it a ride out of the ruined city back to proper civilization.

So yeah, long story short, I wouldn't play a Zeitgeist as a monster, but as an environmental effect with the capacity for intelligent thought.

[danielxcutter]

Honestly, if you want to use a Zeitgeist, I'd use the fluff of one and make it more of an environmental feature rather than something with actual stats. I've used one to good effect in a short campaign set in a ruined city, where the Zeitgeist occupied the former mages college and was messing around with stuff, creating the illusion that it was still occupied and business as usual and all that. The PC's goal was simply to get some information and an artifact there, though they ended up communicating with the Zeitgeist once they figured out what was going on and essentially offered it a ride out of the ruined city back to proper civilization.

So yeah, long story short, I wouldn't play a Zeitgeist as a monster, but as an environmental effect with the capacity for intelligent thought.

I can get what you mean, but Zeitgeists... don't actually work like that. They die if their city is destroyed and can't leave it anyways.

Then again fluff is mutable.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Yeah, it's mostly about the base creature being bad. What would be a more accurate CR?

Maybe 10-12 for the base creature, 15-16 for your advanced version if you want to be generous.
None of its abilities scale well (or at all, really), so advancing it doesn't really make it that much more threatening.

[danielxcutter]

Maybe 10-12 for the base creature, 15-16 for your advanced version if you want to be generous.
None of its abilities scale well (or at all, really), so advancing it doesn't really make it that much more threatening.

Was Cityscape one of the earlier books? It must be later than Heroes of Horror and the Miniatures Handbook, since one of the NPCs is an Unholy Scion with levels in Dread Necromancer...

[Asmotherion]

Not much as in "not enough". This is supposed to be a CR 27 monster; I'm genuinely surprised it doesn't at least have 7th or 8th level SLAs.

Flashier, sure. But an 8th level caster with the right spells, feats and resources is already a potent global scale threat if he choses to.

[Darg]

The whole point of a zeitgeist encounter is that you shouldn't know it's coming and getting caught in a confined area (alleys, sewers, etc.) makes it a very tough challenge. I guess everyone walks around with always on buffs every minute of every day. All of the spell like abilities are at-will and guess what? Your weapons and armor are generally made with metal and wood. Belt buckle anyone?

Honestly, if you wanted to increase the CR just give it Swift Concentration and quicken spell-like ability (Animate Objects)

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Last time I used a Zeitgeist, I re-statted it from a 20-HD fey to a 10-HD outsider. Same BAB, +1 Fort, -5 Ref and Will and SLA DCs, -9 to all skill modifiers, half CL, drop HP to 145, remove the manifestation-only feats or say they're bonus feats in manifested form, and you're good to go; the SLAs don't even have to change, because its SLAs top out at 5ths and 6ths already (except repel metal or stone, which is fine as a nice little bonus ability on top). That definitely made it clear that a CR of a little over 10 was more appropriate, so I agree with sleepyphoenixx on that front.


Was Cityscape one of the earlier books? It must be later than Heroes of Horror and the Miniatures Handbook, since one of the NPCs is an Unholy Scion with levels in Dread Necromancer...

Nope, it's from November of 2006, even after Tome of Battle, so it was one of the last ones published and the devs didn't have the excuse of not knowing how to set CR yet. If anything, it's probably due to the devs having adjusted to the more constrained power levels of the 4e-playtest books like ToM and already having started to work on 4e proper, so remembering how to CR mid- to high-level monsters was probably tricky and they likely severely over-valued incorporeality and invisibility at high levels based on half-remembered power levels.


The whole point of a zeitgeist encounter is that you shouldn't know it's coming and getting caught in a confined area (alleys, sewers, etc.) makes it a very tough challenge. I guess everyone walks around with always on buffs every minute of every day.

Uh, at 20th level? Yes, yes they do. Hours/level buffs, persistent and permanent spells, and sensory/utility items coming out of your ears are expected at that point, and even if they weren't, no one's just walking around the sewers dungeon-crawling at those levels so the enclosed spaces are highly unlikely to be an issue.

[danielxcutter]

The whole point of a zeitgeist encounter is that you shouldn't know it's coming and getting caught in a confined area (alleys, sewers, etc.) makes it a very tough challenge. I guess everyone walks around with always on buffs every minute of every day. All of the spell like abilities are at-will and guess what? Your weapons and armor are generally made with metal and wood. Belt buckle anyone?

Honestly, if you wanted to increase the CR just give it Swift Concentration and quicken spell-like ability (Animate Objects)

I won't deny that being incorporeal (most of the time, at least) and the numerous SLAs are useful, sure. The thing is, even a basic Zeitgeist is supposed to be CR 23; that's supposed to be as strong as a SOLAR.

As for the "always on buffs every minute of the day", the PCs should be at least ECL 16 for a normal version, so there's a good chance that they'll have some buffs still on or in reserve. Not to mention that stealth ambushes typically increase the CR or at least the XP given, if I'm not mistaken.


Last time I used a Zeitgeist, I re-statted it from a 20-HD fey to a 10-HD outsider. Same BAB, +1 Fort, -5 Ref and Will and SLA DCs, -9 to all skill modifiers, half CL, drop HP to 145, remove the manifestation-only feats or say they're bonus feats in manifested form, and you're good to go; the SLAs don't even have to change, because its SLAs top out at 5ths and 6ths already (except repel metal or stone, which is fine as a nice little bonus ability on top). That definitely made it clear that a CR of a little over 10 was more appropriate, so I agree with sleepyphoenixx on that front.

That doesn't sound too bad, but I'm not exactly an expert on these things.


Nope, it's from November of 2006, even after Tome of Battle, so it was one of the last ones published and the devs didn't have the excuse of not knowing how to set CR yet. If anything, it's probably due to the devs having adjusted to the more constrained power levels of the 4e-playtest books like ToM and already having started to work on 4e proper, so remembering how to CR mid- to high-level monsters was probably tricky and they likely severely over-valued incorporeality and invisibility at high levels based on half-remembered power levels.

Not to mention that using an urban manifestation removes said incorporeality and invisibility. Honestly, I wonder if they just made a typo and were originally planning to put it at CR 13 or something.

[GrayDeath]

Wait, it was actually supposed to be CR 23?

I only ever enountered one Zeitgeist in Play, with a Level 1 Party, and it managed to confuse our noncasters and annoy our casters pretty well and flavourful, but never felt like we were in actual Danger....

Huh.