Bard/Incantatrix

[Endril_69]

I was thinking about making a Bard/Incantatrix for an upcoming game, and I couldn't find any builds for one online. It seems like an idea build would be 7 Bard, 3 Incantatrix, 2 Sublime Chord, 7 Incantatrix, 1 x. Feats would obviously be whatever increases spellcraft, and persist spell. Any ideas on how to improve this further?

[sleepyphoenixx]

I was thinking about making a Bard/Incantatrix for an upcoming game, and I couldn't find any builds for one online. It seems like an idea build would be 7 Bard, 3 Incantatrix, 2 Sublime Chord, 7 Incantatrix, 1 x. Feats would obviously be whatever increases spellcraft, and persist spell. Any ideas on how to improve this further?

What exactly are you hoping to gain from bard? Because i can't see it. You're basically a worse sorcerer with a few extra skill points with this build.
Since you're not losing any casting progression there is in fact little point not just playing a sorcerer unless you really like the bard spell list or really need that weak Inspire Courage.

If you want to play a bard with persistomancy you could take a look at Spelldancer (MoF) instead.
Spelldancer costs more feats, sure, but it's doable if you're human and only costs you 1 level, leaving the others free for more bard PrCs.

[Endril_69]

What exactly are you hoping to gain from bard? Because i can't see it. You're basically a worse sorcerer with a few extra skill points with this build.
Since you're not losing any casting progression there is in fact little point not just playing a sorcerer unless you really like the bard spell list or really need that weak Inspire Courage.

If you want to play a bard with persistomancy you could take a look at Spelldancer (MoF) instead.
Spelldancer costs more feats, sure, but it's doable if you're human and only costs you 1 level, leaving the others free for more bard PrCs.

Well, you're right that wizard is better. That's what I'm currently playing. When the game restarts, I'm torn between playing another Incantatrix or a Bard, then I figured I could just play both. It's something different, and gives me more to do the first couple levels.

While wizard is a better Incantatrix, I wonder if Incantatrix is a better Sublime Chord, which is why I'm surprised no one's commented on it.

Spelldancer looks fun. I see a few problems though:
1. I can't persist other people's spells.
2. I can't use it on necromancy or invocation (evocation?).
3. A lot less uses/day. Even with my intelligence a bit lower than my charisma (let's assume +7 mod end game), as an Incantatrix I can hit others 10/day and any (my own) 10/day. As a spelldancer with just as much constitution, I start making fortitude saves with my 2nd use, and I'll probably start failing that after 4 uses (dc 34).

I like the idea of using performance to persist. Would be a great dip with less feat tax.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There aren't many worthwhile Evocation or Necromancy buffs to persist anyway.

Spelldancer effectively has no limit at all to how often you can use it. Get immunity to fatigue via one of the many ways (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?606421-ways-to-bypassing-removing-fatigue-and-exhaustion), and dip one level of Binder to bind Naberius to get fast healing for ability damage. It no longer matters if you fail the Fort saves, you're not fatigued and the Con damage heals in less time than it takes you to Spelldance your next buff.

Furthermore, you can go Bard 8/ Binder 1/ Spelldancer 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Incantatrix 4/ whatever 4 and have the best of both.

Be sure to take Ancestral Relic for a custom Runestaff (MIC p224) to effectively negate your normally limited number of spells known. Ideally it should be an Elvencraft longbow with three wand chambers.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

As you know (and as is obvious) this combination is not as powerful as a more typical Wizard/Incantatrix. It's dual attribute dependent (arguably INT>CHA at later levels), has a smaller spell selection with worse access to low/mid-level goodies due to bard entry, later access to key Incantatrix features, and actual bardic class features don't mesh as well since Incantatrix focuses on maximizing spellcasting above all else. That said, not being as powerful as a Wizard/Incantatrix is probably a good thing at most tables, and access to bard spells is not without benefit.

I would go persistomancer as normal. You might miss out on certain nice wizard spells, but bard does get Glibness, Empyreal Ecstasy, and Nixie's Grace. If you're not worried about making a constant racket and you have divine caster buddies then Hymn of Praise/Infernal Threnody is good too. If you're not worried about noise and you somehow have build resources to pump bardic music then you can also extend said music all day with Lingering Chorus.

Incantatrix does tend to play better with fellow spellcasters due to Cooperative Metamagic. Honestly, a class that just had that feature (when paired with casters) would be a very boring but effective class. As Biff notes, you can squeeze in both Incantatrix and Spelldancer if you want.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Well, you're right that wizard is better. That's what I'm currently playing. When the game restarts, I'm torn between playing another Incantatrix or a Bard, then I figured I could just play both. It's something different, and gives me more to do the first couple levels.
Well yes, wizard is better than most things. But always playing one gets stale anyway.
What i meant is what you want to get out of bard. Do you want to focus on music, buff the party, be a gish or a skillmonkey or just cast from a different list?
"All of the above" is an option, but you'll have to make a sacrifice somewhere, which in this case is probably going to be the free persists. Unless that one is non-negotiable?


While wizard is a better Incantatrix, I wonder if Incantatrix is a better Sublime Chord, which is why I'm surprised no one's commented on it.
No. Sublime Chord has very little high level spells known and per day and isn't int SAD, so you'll have fewer spells to persist and lower spellcraft checks.
Incantatrix is still good in any caster build that can squeeze in 3 levels because free persist is just that powerful, but wizards just synergize best with it.


Spelldancer looks fun. I see a few problems though:
1. I can't persist other people's spells.
2. I can't use it on necromancy or invocation (evocation?).
3. A lot less uses/day. Even with my intelligence a bit lower than my charisma (let's assume +7 mod end game), as an Incantatrix I can hit others 10/day and any (my own) 10/day. As a spelldancer with just as much constitution, I start making fortitude saves with my 2nd use, and I'll probably start failing that after 4 uses (dc 34).

I like the idea of using performance to persist. Would be a great dip with less feat tax.
1. True, but that's true for everyone.
2. Isn't really much of a problem. And Incantatrix needs to give up a school entirely, so it evens out in that respect.
3. You generally get immunity to ability damage and fatigue so you can dance as much as you like.

The feat tax is the only real drawback. You can manage as a human and/or flaws but unless your DM lets you qualify with feats gained from items/spells it'll hurt.