Doctor Awkward
2020-01-20, 12:53 PM
This thread is an attempt to gather opinions and resolve some lingering issues I have with the Knockback feat and how it interacts with the bull rush rules.
For the purposes of this thread, a bull rush is a special combat maneuver that can be performed as a standard action or as part of a charge in place of the normal melee attack. The normal process of doing a bull rush is the following:
Enter the opponents space. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as well as any creature that threatens you.
Make an opposed Strength check with your target.
Result: If you win the check, push your target back by 5 feet. If you choose to move with your opponent, you may push them back an additional 5 feet for every 5 points by which your result exceeded your targets. This movement may not exceed your normal movement for the round. Both you and the defender provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for this movement, but not from each other.
It's unclear to me if the act of entering your opponent's square for initiating as part of a bull rush counts against your movement for the round. The way the bull rush rules are written, it makes sense that entering your opponents square would be part of your charge. So a character with 30 feet of movement would not actually be able to bull rush a target from 60 feet away. At most the target could be 55 feet since you would need your last 5 feet to enter their square. On the other hand, the rules are clear that a bull rush may be performed as a standard action, using only your standard action. You are still required to move into an opponent's square as part of that standard action.
The Knockback feat grants a character a free bull rush attempt on any opponent they hit when using Power Attack, with a bonus to the Strength check equal to the penalty taken on the attack roll (doubled if they are wielding a two-handed weapon). It additionally makes the following changes to the bull rush rules:
Unlike standard bull rush attempts, knockback attempts don't provoke attacks of opportunity, and you don't move with the enemy you knock backward.
Additionally, since the feat grants a "free" bull rush attempt, I am taking that to mean that the movement issue I noted above is of no consequence. Regardless of how the maneuver is normally supposed to be run, a character utilizing Knockback is effectively entitled to an additional 5 feet of movement.
My first issue is the negation of attacks of opportunity. It's unclear to me if the author intended to change the requirement of entering the opponent's space, but since that is not addressed, by RAW you still must. I additionally believe the intent was that the only defender would not provoke opportunity attacks with their movement backwards as a trade-off for the Knockback character not provoking as a result of not having to move with them. But the way the text is written you would still be required to enter the opponent's space as normal and provoke attacks from no one. This is a strict upgrade to Improved Bull Rush, which explicitly only negates the attack of opportunity that the attacker would provoke from the defender. During a Knockback, no one gets any attacks that would normally be provoked by bull rush movement.
My second issue is the movement restriction. Despite the fact that you no longer are required to follow the target you are bull rushing, the Knockback feat does not address this part of the maneuver at all. Therefore that movement restriction is still in place. This means that regardless of the difference in your check result, you are still limited in how far Knockback will move someone by your movement for the round.
A couple of examples:
A character with 30 feet of movement moves 10 feet around a corner, sees an enemy 10 feet away and moves up to hit them with a Power Attack. They win the bull rush by 20, automatically pushing the target back 5 feet. The target is pushed back an additional 10 feet and stops because the attacker has run out of movement for the round, despite the fact that result would entitle them 15 feet of movement. They would end the turn in the space their opponent started in because the bull rush rules require you to enter that space at the start of the maneuver. The attacker has actually moved a total of 35 feet from where they started.
The same character charges an opponent from 60 feet away. Upon a successful hit they would enter the opponent's space despite being out of movement for the round because the feat grants a free attempt on hit, and they are required to do so as part of the maneuver. They win the check by 20, and the opponent is automatically pushed back 5 feet, as instructed by the Bull Rush result. Even though the character would normally be entitled to send the opponent backwards an additional 15, the opponent does not move further than 5 feet because the attacker is already out of movement for the round by the end of the charge. The attacker has this time moved 65 feet from where they started. Their opponent is still adjacent to them, having been pushed 5 feet back from their starting square which is now occupied by the attacker.
My group has always run Knockback as the attacker simply wallops an from their current square without moving, and the opponent is moved backwards however far the subsequent check result dictates, regardless of how much movement the attacker has used in the round up to that point. I have no way of knowing whether or not that was how the author intended the feat to be used, and I've started to wonder whether the Rules As Written support that interpretation.
Thoughts?
For the purposes of this thread, a bull rush is a special combat maneuver that can be performed as a standard action or as part of a charge in place of the normal melee attack. The normal process of doing a bull rush is the following:
Enter the opponents space. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as well as any creature that threatens you.
Make an opposed Strength check with your target.
Result: If you win the check, push your target back by 5 feet. If you choose to move with your opponent, you may push them back an additional 5 feet for every 5 points by which your result exceeded your targets. This movement may not exceed your normal movement for the round. Both you and the defender provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for this movement, but not from each other.
It's unclear to me if the act of entering your opponent's square for initiating as part of a bull rush counts against your movement for the round. The way the bull rush rules are written, it makes sense that entering your opponents square would be part of your charge. So a character with 30 feet of movement would not actually be able to bull rush a target from 60 feet away. At most the target could be 55 feet since you would need your last 5 feet to enter their square. On the other hand, the rules are clear that a bull rush may be performed as a standard action, using only your standard action. You are still required to move into an opponent's square as part of that standard action.
The Knockback feat grants a character a free bull rush attempt on any opponent they hit when using Power Attack, with a bonus to the Strength check equal to the penalty taken on the attack roll (doubled if they are wielding a two-handed weapon). It additionally makes the following changes to the bull rush rules:
Unlike standard bull rush attempts, knockback attempts don't provoke attacks of opportunity, and you don't move with the enemy you knock backward.
Additionally, since the feat grants a "free" bull rush attempt, I am taking that to mean that the movement issue I noted above is of no consequence. Regardless of how the maneuver is normally supposed to be run, a character utilizing Knockback is effectively entitled to an additional 5 feet of movement.
My first issue is the negation of attacks of opportunity. It's unclear to me if the author intended to change the requirement of entering the opponent's space, but since that is not addressed, by RAW you still must. I additionally believe the intent was that the only defender would not provoke opportunity attacks with their movement backwards as a trade-off for the Knockback character not provoking as a result of not having to move with them. But the way the text is written you would still be required to enter the opponent's space as normal and provoke attacks from no one. This is a strict upgrade to Improved Bull Rush, which explicitly only negates the attack of opportunity that the attacker would provoke from the defender. During a Knockback, no one gets any attacks that would normally be provoked by bull rush movement.
My second issue is the movement restriction. Despite the fact that you no longer are required to follow the target you are bull rushing, the Knockback feat does not address this part of the maneuver at all. Therefore that movement restriction is still in place. This means that regardless of the difference in your check result, you are still limited in how far Knockback will move someone by your movement for the round.
A couple of examples:
A character with 30 feet of movement moves 10 feet around a corner, sees an enemy 10 feet away and moves up to hit them with a Power Attack. They win the bull rush by 20, automatically pushing the target back 5 feet. The target is pushed back an additional 10 feet and stops because the attacker has run out of movement for the round, despite the fact that result would entitle them 15 feet of movement. They would end the turn in the space their opponent started in because the bull rush rules require you to enter that space at the start of the maneuver. The attacker has actually moved a total of 35 feet from where they started.
The same character charges an opponent from 60 feet away. Upon a successful hit they would enter the opponent's space despite being out of movement for the round because the feat grants a free attempt on hit, and they are required to do so as part of the maneuver. They win the check by 20, and the opponent is automatically pushed back 5 feet, as instructed by the Bull Rush result. Even though the character would normally be entitled to send the opponent backwards an additional 15, the opponent does not move further than 5 feet because the attacker is already out of movement for the round by the end of the charge. The attacker has this time moved 65 feet from where they started. Their opponent is still adjacent to them, having been pushed 5 feet back from their starting square which is now occupied by the attacker.
My group has always run Knockback as the attacker simply wallops an from their current square without moving, and the opponent is moved backwards however far the subsequent check result dictates, regardless of how much movement the attacker has used in the round up to that point. I have no way of knowing whether or not that was how the author intended the feat to be used, and I've started to wonder whether the Rules As Written support that interpretation.
Thoughts?