Raising the Dead against their will

[ChudoJogurt]

A PHB (page 153) says that a soul cannot be returned to life unwillingly, and it "knows name, alignment and patron deity" of the caster.
Can this be somehow circumvented with magic?
E.g. would a spell or a class feature that renders alignment undetectable foil this knowledge? Would anti-divination spells work against it?

Or perhaps is there a revivification spell that can return someone to life (or intelligent unlife?) unwillingly?

[RatElemental]

This seems to be a pretty hard rule to get around, even salient divine abilities can't return a creature to life if the creature doesn't want to return. I suspect we'd have to find a badly worded and or third party ability with which to do so.

[Gauntlet]

Intelligent Unlife is doable with various undead creation spells.

[ViperMagnum357]

Not that I know of without going third party. I do recall a major artifact in one of the Bastion Press books that can do this, but that is pretty far off the beaten path, even for a lenient DM.

[Crake]

Bring them back as undead, control them, order them to accept the resurrection when you cast it on them

[PoeticallyPsyco]

You can at least fool the alignment part with the Master of Masks prestige class. Those masks may not be all that mechanically impressive for the most part, but they automatically fool any alignment detection method.

[Thurbane]

Would Vecna-Blooded help?

I also believe there's an utterance that hides your name from others?

[False God]

This seems to be a pretty hard rule to get around, even salient divine abilities can't return a creature to life if the creature doesn't want to return. I suspect we'd have to find a badly worded and or third party ability with which to do so.

Actually the "Gift of Life" ability can do so, but only with the permission of that deity of that person's afterlife.

Which is weird because the "Life and Death" ability, which has the above as a prereq, cannot do that.

Ah, 3.whatever, we love you.

[Psyren]

It's easier to get around than you might think; just find a friendly cleric of the appropriate alignment/deity and mind control/coerce them to cast the rez for you (supply a scroll if necessary). All three of the identifiers the soul gets will still ping positive and they should accept. In this case, rather than raise the unwilling, you're fooling them into being willing.


Bring them back as undead, control them, order them to accept the resurrection when you cast it on them

You'd have to destroy the undead first, which will end any control you've placed on them. You're not controlling their soul in any event, which is either still in the afterlife (mindless undead) or merely trapped in the thing you've created (intelligent undead.)

[Bohandas]

It seems to me that the way to do this would be to start by calling the individual in question with planar binding, use that spell to make them agree, and then case raise dead/resurrection

[Calthropstu]

It's easy. Simply lift the body and you have raised the dead. Alternatively, levitate will work.

[Saintheart]

It's easy. Simply lift the body and you have raised the dead. Alternatively, levitate will work.

And if you want to raise the dead against their will, it's simply a matter of where you place the document.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Meh. Once you have access to divination spells that can find creatures (lots of them) and plane shift, just go to the creature's afterlife, find its soul using divination, and knock it out. Unconscious creatures are considered automatically willing, so it won't have a choice but to come back, if you get past its native defenses (such as SR).

[Bohandas]

Meh. Once you have access to divination spells that can find creatures (lots of them) and plane shift, just go to the creature's afterlife, find its soul using divination, and knock it out. Unconscious creatures are considered automatically willing, so it won't have a choice but to come back, if you get past its native defenses (such as SR).

or use planar binding or a similar spell to bring it to you

[Psyren]

It seems to me that the way to do this would be to start by calling the individual in question with planar binding, use that spell to make them agree, and then case raise dead/resurrection


Meh. Once you have access to divination spells that can find creatures (lots of them) and plane shift, just go to the creature's afterlife, find its soul using divination, and knock it out. Unconscious creatures are considered automatically willing, so it won't have a choice but to come back, if you get past its native defenses (such as SR).

Neither of these work. A petitioner is not a soul; nothing you do to the petitioner will persist when it stops being one.

You can certainly bind, kidnap, or otherwise harm a petitioner (provided you can get to it) but a 2 HD outsider with next to no abilities probably isn't what the OP had in mind.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Neither of these work. A petitioner is not a soul; nothing you do to the petitioner will persist when it stops being one.

You can certainly bind, kidnap, or otherwise harm a petitioner (provided you can get to it) but a 2 HD outsider with next to no abilities probably isn't what the OP had in mind.So, a soul that goes to the afterlife is not actually a soul, despite being a soul.

That makes perfect sense. :annoyed:

[Psyren]

So, a soul that goes to the afterlife is not actually a soul, despite being a soul.

That makes perfect sense. :annoyed:

But it does; a petitioner is a soul that's packaged into something (a 2HD outsider in this case), just like an undead is a soul packaged into something. Or a mortal creature for that matter is a soul packaged into something.

The idea is that, all your typical tricks for coercing a creature, are actually coercing the package that the soul is in, rather than the soul itself - because the package is where the characteristics of a creature (like creature type and HD) come from.

[Crake]

But it does; a petitioner is a soul that's packaged into something (a 2HD outsider in this case), just like an undead is a soul packaged into something. Or a mortal creature for that matter is a soul packaged into something.

The idea is that, all your typical tricks for coercing a creature, are actually coercing the package that the soul is in, rather than the soul itself - because the package is where the characteristics of a creature (like creature type and HD) come from.

That's not quite true when you consider that petitioners are outsiders, because outsiders lack a dual nature. Their body is the soul, they are the soul incarnate.

[ChudoJogurt]

Intelligent Unlife is doable with various undead creation spells.

Which spells would allow for the undead to retain memories and personality of the character?
I'm fine with them losing class levels and etc (in fact that may be preferable), but I;m very much not sure if, say, Create Undead-raised Ghoul would have anything in common with the raised character, other than using the same body.

[Quertus]

That's not quite true when you consider that petitioners are outsiders, because outsiders lack a dual nature. Their body is the soul, they are the soul incarnate.

Seconding this. For any other package, I would agree, but in the case of an Outsider, the packaging very much *is* the soul.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That's not quite true when you consider that petitioners are outsiders, because outsiders lack a dual nature. Their body is the soul, they are the soul incarnate.This.

I would've responded much earlier, but I've been having problems with this site since yesterday afternoon.

So, yeah. My point stands. Just find the petitioner (or whatever else the soul incarnated as) and knock it unconscious. You still have to deal with SR or other defenses (if any), but as creepy as the fridge logic is, unconscious critters are considered "willing" and thus can't actively resist being brought back.

[Elves]

But only particularly devoted servants of specific gods become petitioners (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineMinions.htm), and even then "a few may remain disembodied spirits". So outside of a setting like FR where being an evangelist is compulsory, it's not a universal method. Messing with the afterlife is also pretty likely to get wrath brought down on you, so the trickery method is still preferable when possible.

[Psyren]

That's not quite true when you consider that petitioners are outsiders, because outsiders lack a dual nature. Their body is the soul, they are the soul incarnate.

Yes and no. Here's what Complete Divine has to say:



Get a New Body: Some individual souls come to the
attention of the gods and powerful outsiders that inhabit
the planes, either because the souls were exceptionally
good or wicked in life or because the deity sees great
potential in an otherwise unremarkable soul. These souls
are granted new bodies and become outsiders called petitioners.
Most petitioners are 2 Hit Dice outsiders with
abilities similar to those of the outsiders that inhabit their
particular plane. Lemure devils and dretch demons are
typical petitioners, for example. Petitioners serve gods and
outsiders that created them; many are promised promotion
to more powerful forms (whether demonic or angelic) if
they serve well. In this way, the deities replenish the ranks
of their hosts. Sometimes petitioners do well enough to be
sent back among the living in response to a planar ally spell
or similar conjuration.
...
Respond to Resurrection Magic: Some souls don’t
linger for long in the afterlife, and their final destination
turns out to be not so final after all. When someone among
the living casts a reincarnation, raise dead, resurrection, or true
resurrection spell, the contacted soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting
to revive it. But the soul doesn’t know—and can’t find out—
the circumstances of its return to life. The soul might be
coming back in the midst of a great battle, or the caster may
be a dupe of the deceased creature’s enemies, for example.
The soul has a general sense of how long it’s been dead, but
doesn’t keep exact track of time.

The soul also has a sense of which spell is bringing it
back to life; it can tell how painful the return journey into
a living body will be. It can differentiate between resurrection magic that causes Constitution or level loss and magic
that doesn’t.

The quotes above prove three things:

1) Becoming a petitioner involves "getting a body" - that would be the "package" I was referring to above - which means that most souls don't have those by default.

2) The soul must become a petitioner - i.e. an outsider creature - before it can respond to conjurations. "Unpackaged" souls can't do that, so the "bind and coerce" tactic does not work on them.

4) Respond to resurrection magic is a separate activity from becoming a petitioner, and it is explicitly the short-term solution. In other words, they generally don't become petitioners until they've been there a while - out of range of resurrection magic I'd wager. For some petitioners this is more explicit than others, like the ones being tortured down in Hell, where FC2 instructs you to retire the character because it can no longer be raised at all.

In short, the ones that don't get a body are not creatures, which renders any "bind them" and "knock them out" plans moot.

[Ashtagon]

Where's the actual RAW that states that a petitioner is the soul incarnate, and controlling the petitioner is a direct channel to controlling teh soul in a way unlike controlling their pre-death mortal form, dead remains, or undead shell?

An equally valid interpretation would appear to be that because the outer planes are made up of "elemental idea", they are uniquely shapeable by souls that are mentally attuned to the alignment of that plane. As such, petitioners are formed when a particularly powerful soul has enough self-awareness and smooth enough passage to the outer plane to shape a body of sorts for itself out of the plane-stuff that matches their alignment.

Checking the definition of an outsider, there isn't even anything specifically calling out the idea that their body and soul are not distinct. Tieflings and other planetouched seem to be prime examples of outsiders that do have bodies distinct from their souls (that is, they die, leave a corpse behind, spells that contact dead people work when they are dead, and they can be resurrected).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Which spells would allow for the undead to retain memories and personality of the character?
I'm fine with them losing class levels and etc (in fact that may be preferable), but I;m very much not sure if, say, Create Undead-raised Ghoul would have anything in common with the raised character, other than using the same body.

Animate Dread Warrior (UE) and Create Greater Undead when applying templates like Crypt Spawn or Spectral Mage (both MoF).

[Thurbane]

Which spells would allow for the undead to retain memories and personality of the character?
I'm fine with them losing class levels and etc (in fact that may be preferable), but I;m very much not sure if, say, Create Undead-raised Ghoul would have anything in common with the raised character, other than using the same body.

Animate Dread Warrior (UE) and Create Greater Undead when applying templates like Crypt Spawn or Spectral Mage (both MoF).
Bone Creature and Corpse Creature (BoVD) can both be created by Create Undead or Greater Create Undead, and retain all the skills, feats, class features etc. of the base creature: so presumably the memories are intact.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The Hyperconscious power psianimate dead brings 'em back temporarily (so long as you have power points left), and they have all their memories and personality intact (as they have all their mental ability scores), although they don't keep all their abilities. [Ex] and [Na], yeah, but nothing magical.

[Thurbane]

Or perhaps is there a revivification spell that can return someone to life (or intelligent unlife?) unwillingly?
The spell Revenance (SC) temporarily returns a creature to life for 1 minute/level. It has a Will save (harmless). It does say that it otherwise functions as Raise Dead, so presumably the same clauses about the soul being willing apply.

[RatElemental]

Bone Creature and Corpse Creature (BoVD) can both be created by Create Undead or Greater Create Undead, and retain all the skills, feats, class features etc. of the base creature: so presumably the memories are intact.

The bodies contain all the memories with no need for the soul, according to Speak with Dead. It doesn't call the soul back, just animates the corpse and makes it able to speak.

[Bohandas]

Neither of these work. A petitioner is not a soul; nothing you do to the petitioner will persist when it stops being one.

You can certainly bind, kidnap, or otherwise harm a petitioner (provided you can get to it) but a 2 HD outsider with next to no abilities probably isn't what the OP had in mind.

From the SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType)

"Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit"

[Psyren]

From the SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType)

"Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit"

Very good - now take a look at the posts you skipped over :smalltongue: