Slightly Unchained Summoner

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay, so I am considering how to approach putting the Summoner into our games.

On the one hand, I am aware of the reputation of the base summoner, but on the other, I don't like the idea of mechically constraining the eidolon to the same extent as unchained summoner does, as that seems to defeat some of the point of making your own creature-thingy.

So I guess I'm sort of looking at a semi-unchained summoner.



Thoughts:

Start with base Summoner. (I.e., summon evolution points.)

Use USummoner spell list. (That eliminates some of the problems right away.)

Modify Maximum attacks to be:

Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. Attacks made with weapons are not affected by this limt, but do count towards it.

(Reason - don't theorhetically objects Kali builds - given presense of Shock Trooper/Pounce Barbarians - (as I have already capped out in the rules the maximum number of weapon attacks as a hard cap already with this in mind), but Kali plus natural attacks is the point of No, I think.)

Modify cost of Limbs (arms) to increase from 2 to 3 if it has more than four arms, and to four is more than eight arms. (Take a little off edge of Kali a little to keep it in manageble limits.)

Possibly add some of the subtypes as evolutions (or a class feature); I don't think that being able to have your eidolon as an utsider et al is a terrible idea, so long as it doesn't restrict things too much.

Use USummoner cost for Pounce (and potentially any other ability that is a bit high).



Any other obvious pitfalls or points that might need to be addressed?

[upho]

Okay, so I am considering how to approach putting the Summoner into our games.I definitely think you should. It's a wonderfully different and very fun class to both build and to play and GM for IMO, at least with some tweaks to nerf the most ridiculous stuff (or with a player who knows how to properly balance their summoner's power to suit the game and party).


On the one hand, I am aware of the reputation of the base summoner, but on the other, I don't like the idea of mechically constraining the eidolon to the same extent as unchained summoner does, as that seems to defeat some of the point of making your own creature-thingy.I'm of exactly the same opinion. I have no idea why Paizo decided to constrain the eidolon so drastically and try to limit its flavor to a few existing boxes, basically robbing it of that fantastic "build your own unique monster buddy"-quality which is the main unique selling point of the class IMO. I don't want to imitate existing outsiders, I want my very own special snowflake one-of-a-kind monster cutie, dammit! :smallmad:

I also think it's typically the least worrying of the original summoner's three problematic features (the other two being the spell list and the SM SLA), and the one most easily fixed.


Start with base Summoner. (I.e., summon evolution points.)

Use USummoner spell list. (That eliminates some of the problems right away.)

Use USummoner cost for Pounce (and potentially any other ability that is a bit high).I've run my games with pretty much these changes since before the USummoner was released, and it has so far worked very well. A few things to note with regards to the eidolon and some of the evos which may not be immediately obvious:

1. The Large and especially Huge evos grant the very significant monster design up-sizing ability bonuses, which are hilariously over-the-top for the eidolon (+8/16 Str and +4/8 Con for Large/Huge at 8th/13th). I've simply reduced these to half (+4/8 Str and +2/4 Con), which is also what the unchained versions of these evos grant.

2. Keep in mind that the size increasing evos are (Ex) abilities which change the eidolon's base size, so per RAW they stack with all other size increases and means a 13th+ level summoner's melee eidolon can and will be Gargantuan in combat whenever there's enough room. This can of course make especially a more optimized melee control/defender eidolon with it's 45' non-buffed melee reach and potentially great senses a very effective combatant, enough so a player of a typically max Large martial PC with a similar combat style/role and 20' reach may rightly feel like their friend's pet is waltzing all over their PC's toes, outperforming them in their primary field of expertise. If you think this may become the case in your game, I suggest limiting the evos by simply not allowing them to stack with any other size increases.

3. Related to the above, at least if your game includes PF's potentially far more powerful combat maneuvers and associated options (notably dirty trick), note that similarly to a bloodrager, an eidolon can be one of the most effective melee combatants possible in the game also when the summoner completely ignores boosting their pet's damage. Likewise, various evo, feat, item and co-op combos granting free combat maneuvers and AoO triggers can reliably grant an eidolon (and possibly also its melee allies) a very large number of attacks per round even if it doesn't have many limbs, potentially allowing the eidolon to take several opponents of a CR equal to ECL out of a fight each round. If you believe these kinds of combos are likely to make eidolons OP in your game, I think one of the easiest solutions is actually to introduce a level dependent cap on the typically high number of relatively cheap training (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/training/) weapons the eidolon can use simultaneously, as that number determines much of the effectiveness of these feat intense combos (I think max 1 training weapon, +1 for every 5 summoner levels, should be adequate.)

4. Keep an extra eye on an eidolon focusing on grappling, as the grab evo and especially the Snatch feat and various related options can make for some very potent combos (at least unless/until most enemies have FoM). Somewhat counter-intuitively, grappling can typically also be made into a very effective full attack damage boost for a natural attack eidolon, each natural attack capable of making a highly accurate and damaging attack -> grab -> constrict -> release combo.

5. Related to grappling, the otherwise mechanically sound, fun and flavorful swallow whole evo unfortunately grants the eidolon's poor little tummy far too few hp to handle its typically dangerously rough and spicy intended diet IME. Which makes it a trap choice which very often fails to provide a benefit even for as little as a single round per combat (the first swallowed enemy typically very easily cut themselves out of the eidolon and ruins the ability). I recommend you alter the tummy's hp from 1/10 to 1/3 of the eidolon's total hp, and increase the AC to 10 + the eidolon's full natural armor bonus and any bonuses to AC other than armor, shield, Dex, dodge and circumstance.


Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. Attacks made with weapons are not affected by this limt, but do count towards it.Do you count weapon iteratives at a lower BAB as the equivalent of a primary natural attack for this purpose? If you do, and if the general cap on the max number of weapon attacks isn't considerably higher than that of the eidolon's max natural attacks, I suspect this change will have your summoner players looking maximize the DPR of their melee "kalidolons" consider it a no-brainer to only make the max allowed number of claw attacks and no weapon attacks.

This is of course not necessarily a bad thing, but if your summoner players are in/of the "MOAH POUNCE PAIN!"-phase/type, their eidolons might very well turn out to have nearly identical mechanics... :smallwink:


Modify cost of Limbs (arms) to increase from 2 to 3 if it has more than four arms, and to four is more than eight arms. (Take a little off edge of Kali a little to keep it in manageble limits.)Wait, is your general cap on max weapon attacks set so high an eidolon could actually make use of more than eight arms in a full attack?


Possibly add some of the subtypes as evolutions (or a class feature); I don't think that being able to have your eidolon as an utsider et al is a terrible idea, so long as it doesn't restrict things too much.This sounds like a good idea, at least if the options are tweaked to have far less restrictive mechanics.


Any other obvious pitfalls or points that might need to be addressed?I've also decreased the SM SLA uses/day to 3 + half Cha mod (minimum 1), as the original limit is IME simply too high to be meaningful in most games and adventuring days, in effect allowing the summoner to basically spam some of the most powerful and versatile spells in the game of each level from 2nd to 9th.

[Firest Kathon]

Modify Maximum attacks to be:

Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. Attacks made with weapons are not affected by this limt, but do count towards it.

I think this does not work as written. Say the limit of natural attacks at the current level is 3. The Eidolon currently has two natural attack and needs to pick an evolution now (e.g. due to level up). If the Eidolon is currently holding a weapon it would not be allowed to take an evolution givin a new natural attack (due to currently having a weapon attack), but if it drops the weapon it would be allowed to.

I would suggest to change the underlined word to "make per round", and drop the second sentence. This would also give the summoner/eidolon the flexibility to choose between natural and weapon attacks as the situation demands while still maintaining an effective limit on attacks per round.

[Aotrs Commander]

I've run my games with pretty much these changes since before the USummoner was released, and it has so far worked very well.

Will do that, then.


A few things to note with regards to the eidolon and some of the evos which may not be immediately obvious:

Thanks, this is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.


1. The Large and especially Huge evos grant the very significant monster design up-sizing ability bonuses, which are hilariously over-the-top for the eidolon (+8/16 Str and +4/8 Con for Large/Huge at 8th/13th). I've simply reduced these to half (+4/8 Str and +2/4 Con), which is also what the unchained versions of these evos grant.

2. Keep in mind that the size increasing evos are (Ex) abilities which change the eidolon's base size, so per RAW they stack with all other size increases and means a 13th+ level summoner's melee eidolon can and will be Gargantuan in combat whenever there's enough room. This can of course make especially a more optimized melee control/defender eidolon with it's 45' non-buffed melee reach and potentially great senses a very effective combatant, enough so a player of a typically max Large martial PC with a similar combat style/role and 20' reach may rightly feel like their friend's pet is waltzing all over their PC's toes, outperforming them in their primary field of expertise. If you think this may become the case in your game, I suggest limiting the evos by simply not allowing them to stack with any other size increases.

I'm not using PF in it's entirity (mostly stacking large chunks on top of 3.5 and having basically both forward and backward compatibility), so aside from Legendary Proportions (as Enlarge Person won't work on an eidolon), what other size boosting options are there to be aware of? (You can probably skip magic items, since they are only likely to turn up in an AP or something hands out, given I'm trying to keep importing magic items for general PC purchase to relative minimum - 3.5 has enough to be going on with, one feels!)

(Though I concur, reducing the size bonuses is wise.)


3. Related to the above, at least if your game includes PF's potentially far more powerful combat maneuvers and associated options (notably dirty trick), note that similarly to a bloodrager, an eidolon can be one of the most effective melee combatants possible in the game also when the summoner completely ignores boosting their pet's damage. Likewise, various evo, feat, item and co-op combos granting free combat maneuvers and AoO triggers can reliably grant an eidolon (and possibly also its melee allies) a very large number of attacks per round even if it doesn't have many limbs, potentially allowing the eidolon to take several opponents of a CR equal to ECL out of a fight each round. If you believe these kinds of combos are likely to make eidolons OP in your game, I think one of the easiest solutions is actually to introduce a level dependent cap on the typically high number of relatively cheap training (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/training/) weapons the eidolon can use simultaneously, as that number determines much of the effectiveness of these feat intense combos (I think max 1 training weapon, +1 for every 5 summoner levels, should be adequate.)

Training weapons are not in my list of stuff I've ported (I haven't gone through magic items specifically, only adding stuff when character classes call for it). amd considerng I have very deliberately lowered the feat tax for the combat maneuvers (and rolled the greaters into the improved), I think it would be wise not to, as I could see that could get out of hand very fast, and not even just for eidolans.


4. Keep an extra eye on an eidolon focusing on grappling, as the grab evo and especially the Snatch feat and various related options can make for some very potent combos (at least unless/until most enemies have FoM). Somewhat counter-intuitively, grappling can typically also be made into a very effective full attack damage boost for a natural attack eidolon, each natural attack capable of making a highly accurate and damaging attack -> grab -> constrict -> release combo.

Hmm.

I basically re-wrote the grappling rules a fair bit completely myself, as I was not 100% satisfied with neither 3.5 nor Pathfinder's. Looking at the rules (which are more based on 3.5 than PF), I'm not sure attack/improved grab+constrict/release is better than just attack/improved grab/constrict/maintain grapple (i.e. grapple check for damage+constrict); but just generally, it's not a tactic I'd ever thought of, though.

Perhaps one simple solution is so add a line to my grapple rules such that if you deal Constrict damage, you cannot release the target until the start of your next turn. (Following the logic of Constrict require than the hold be maintained for a few seconds - Constrict is murderous enough I don't think giving it a slight nerf in edge cases would hurt it.)


5. Related to grappling, the otherwise mechanically sound, fun and flavorful swallow whole evo unfortunately grants the eidolon's poor little tummy far too few hp to handle its typically dangerously rough and spicy intended diet IME. Which makes it a trap choice which very often fails to provide a benefit even for as little as a single round per combat (the first swallowed enemy typically very easily cut themselves out of the eidolon and ruins the ability). I recommend you alter the tummy's hp from 1/10 to 1/3 of the eidolon's total hp, and increase the AC to 10 + the eidolon's full natural armor bonus and any bonuses to AC other than armor, shield, Dex, dodge and circumstance.

Hmm again. We use maximum hit points (for PCs and not infrequently monsters as well), which approximately would double the Swallow Whole hp anyway; I think that if you were going for Swallow Whole, maybe having to have an emphasis on Con wouldn't necessarily hurt. I think I will leave that as it is for now, but bear in mind what you've said if it DOES ever come up and be prepared to modify if I think it's not working well enough.

That said, Swallow Whole is itself not massively useful at the best of times as a damaging thing, since our combats have an average length of 2-4 rounds anyway, so it doesn't have much use beyond a delaying tactic (or screwing with someone who doesn't have a suitable implement in hand (or worse, at all!)) anyway.


Do you count weapon iteratives at a lower BAB as the equivalent of a primary natural attack for this purpose? If you do, and if the general cap on the max number of weapon attacks isn't considerably higher than that of the eidolon's max natural attacks, I suspect this change will have your summoner players looking maximize the DPR of their melee "kalidolons" consider it a no-brainer to only make the max allowed number of claw attacks and no weapon attacks.

This is of course not necessarily a bad thing, but if your summoner players are in/of the "MOAH POUNCE PAIN!"-phase/type, their eidolons might very well turn out to have nearly identical mechanics... :smallwink:

I was counting iteratives, yes.


Wait, is your general cap on max weapon attacks set so high an eidolon could actually make use of more than eight arms in a full attack?

Current rules say you can't make more weapon attacks in a round (including iteratives, excluding bonus attacks from Haste/Rapid Shot/Flurry etc) that 8 or twice you number of arms, whichever is greater. (Which is a better limitation that previously, where a Malelith that was actually TRYING with multiweapon fighting could be making 24 weapon attacks per round, given Perfect TWF is a feat that we have.) You could choose, though, to make the attacks however you want if your iteratives/multiwaepon fighting allowed you more attacks than you can make. (Said marelith could now, for instance only make 12 attacks, but could choose to make full iteratives with a primary hand (four) and five primary off-hand attacks and three iteratives (one for three of those hands) or more lieley, two attacks (primairty and first iterative) from each hand.)

Thus Kali-builds could definitely get more than seven weapon attacks (and much, much earlier) without that much trouble; not letting them to that AND get natural weapons seems wise.

(Also, mechanically, my brain recoils a little bit at a quadruped (the only way to get pounce from an evolution, even with chained Summoner) with lots of weapon arms...!)

I set the limit at "twice number of arms" on the basis that there are not THAT many multi-armed creatures (I asked the forum!) that have more than four arms and it gives a little bit of wiggle room. (It also means that four-armed creatures aren't dispropotionally better than two-armed ones, since they hit the cap earlier, but conversely won't need so many feats to hit it). I wrote that rule actually when I had an initial look at the summoner a few weeks back. Looking at what you COULD do it you really wanted to maximise the number of arms on an eidolon at the expense of other stuff, as it stands, you could fairly easily get more than eight (1+13 pairs, if you were REALLY keen on the idea) and one feels that maybe the point you think you want to make 56 attacks per round is... A little excessive. (Unchained vanilla PF plus ITWF/GTWF/PTWF would be an absurd 112(!). Granted, I would smack my player with... Probablt the Inner Sea World Guide, I think that's the heaviest book I would have on hand if they were to try that, but I do like to put SOME mechanical caps on beyond "dude, don't take the urine."


This sounds like a good idea, at least if the options are tweaked to have far less restrictive mechanics.

The big question is what to set the evolution points at. Maybe make it an ACF that basically says "you pick this subtype, and get reduced evolution points (USum)" but don't restrict the evolutions more than the base (other than exclusive ones to a subtype, I'd have to parse the list to check if they are any).


I've also decreased the SM SLA uses/day to 3 + half Cha mod (minimum 1), as the original limit is IME simply too high to be meaningful in most games and adventuring days, in effect allowing the summoner to basically spam some of the most powerful and versatile spells in the game of each level from 2nd to 9th.

Hmm. Point. I think I would perhaps drop it to just straight Cha mod (minimum 1) (I don't like using fractions of modifers); that would put it at pretty much 4-5/day anway from the get-go, given our stat standards. That is probably enough, one feels. Fundementally, though, it's probably not going to make much of a difference between 3+ 1/2 Cha and Cha most of the time; you'd get slightly more at top level, but one feels at that point, everyone is more kind broken anyway! And we tends to run APs, (whcih cap at about 17) or fairly low-level on day quests, so the occasions of 20 or Epic are small (though not non-existant); currently I think there is only one party which is planned to go Epic and that party is already has characters.




I think this does not work as written. Say the limit of natural attacks at the current level is 3. The Eidolon currently has two natural attack and needs to pick an evolution now (e.g. due to level up). If the Eidolon is currently holding a weapon it would not be allowed to take an evolution givin a new natural attack (due to currently having a weapon attack), but if it drops the weapon it would be allowed to.



I would suggest to change the underlined word to "make per round", and drop the second sentence. This would also give the summoner/eidolon the flexibility to choose between natural and weapon attacks as the situation demands while still maintaining an effective limit on attacks per round.

Yes, thanks, for catching that; my intention was to keep the cap for natural weapons you could HAVE (natural weapons would only count towards that limit), but that if you had weapon attacks as well, they would count towards the limit you could use per round.

So, maybe then:

Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level and also how many natural weapon attacks it can make per round. If the eidolon is at its maximum number of natural weapons, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. The ability to make weapon attacks does not count towards the limit of natural weapons an eidolon can possess, but weapon attacks do count towards this limit for the purposes of how many natural weapon attacks an eidolon can make per round.

[HeraldOfExius]

I'm not using PF in it's entirity (mostly stacking large chunks on top of 3.5 and having basically both forward and backward compatibility), so aside from Legendary Proportions (as Enlarge Person won't work on an eidolon), what other size boosting options are there to be aware of? (You can probably skip magic items, since they are only likely to turn up in an AP or something hands out, given I'm trying to keep importing magic items for general PC purchase to relative minimum - 3.5 has enough to be going on with, one feels!)

(Though I concur, reducing the size bonuses is wise.)

Share Spells allows eidolons to be affected by any of their summoner's spells. Since summoners get Enlarge Person, eidolons can reliably be enlarged every combat.

[Aotrs Commander]

Share Spells allows eidolons to be affected by any of their summoner's spells. Since summoners get Enlarge Person, eidolons can reliably be enlarged every combat.

Ah, yes. (Shows how often we use familiars.) *checks wording* Yes, Share spells always does basiclaly say regardless of type.

Wait, hang-on, AHHH, Pathfinder also doesn't have the "must stay within 5 feet of caster" clause that 3.5 does, which I had not noticed. (Said clause being the reason we tend to forget it about with animal companions as well.)

*checks 3.Aotrs*

So, yes, that clause is still there at current in our rules, apparently. (Question whether or not I should remove it. Have to think about that.)

[Firest Kathon]

Ah, yes. (Shows how often we use familiars.) *checks wording* Yes, Share spells always does basiclaly say regardless of type.

Wait, hang-on, AHHH, Pathfinder also doesn't have the "must stay within 5 feet of caster" clause that 3.5 does, which I had not noticed. (Said clause being the reason we tend to forget it about with animal companions as well.)

*checks 3.Aotrs*

So, yes, that clause is still there at current in our rules, apparently. (Question whether or not I should remove it. Have to think about that.)

Share spells has changed significantly between 3.5 and Pathfinder, beyond those 5 feet (emphasis mine).


At the master’s option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts on himself also affect his familiar. The familiar must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. [...] A master and his familiar can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the familiar’s type (magical beast).

The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar’s type (magical beast).

So in 3.5, a single casting of the spell was affecting both the master and the familiar. In Pathfinder (rules for Eidolons are identical), the master has to instead cast a second time to also affect the familiar. I don't know which version you took over into your system. Interestingly, psionics (both 3.5 and Pathfinder) have yet another version of the power:


At the owner’s option, he can have any power (but not any psi-like ability) he manifests on himself also affect his psicrystal. The psicrystal must be within 5 feet of him at the time of the manifestation to receive the benefit. [...] Additionally, the owner can manifest a power with a target of “You” on his psicrystal (as a touch range power) instead of on himself. The owner and psicrystal cannot share powers if the powers normally do not affect creatures of the psicrystal’s type (construct).

So lots of options for you.

[Aotrs Commander]

Share spells has changed significantly between 3.5 and Pathfinder, beyond those 5 feet (emphasis mine).




So in 3.5, a single casting of the spell was affecting both the master and the familiar. In Pathfinder (rules for Eidolons are identical), the master has to instead cast a second time to also affect the familiar. I don't know which version you took over into your system. Interestingly, psionics (both 3.5 and Pathfinder) have yet another version of the power:



So lots of options for you.

Looks like Dreamscarred did what I've done in pretty much, I think, in a lot of cases where 3.5 and PF have been divergent - split the difference and allow the rules to let you do both as a either/or. Might as well do that here, as well.

*mid-post edit*

That point where you actually read your own rules properly and realise that actually, you already DID and just forgot you did in amongst all the other rues stuff you've done...!



But yes, this means I will need to keep an eye on size shananigans with eidolons and be prepared to tweak if necessary.

[Psyren]

I for one liked what Paizo did with the Unchained Summoner; I've had a lot of newer players faced with analysis paralysis when it came to the eidolon and the more defined base forms helped with that. I think a freer eidolon like the original could work as an archetype for a more experienced player rather than being the default, ideally with a tradeoff of some other benefit.

With that said, I don't see a problem with what you're doing here either - as long as you prevent what I call the Killipede, you should be fine.

[Aotrs Commander]

I for one liked what Paizo did with the Unchained Summoner; I've had a lot of newer players faced with analysis paralysis when it came to the eidolon and the more defined base forms helped with that. I think a freer eidolon like the original could work as an archetype for a more experienced player rather than being the default, ideally with a tradeoff of some other benefit.

With that said, I don't see a problem with what you're doing here either - as long as you prevent what I call the Killipede, you should be fine.

Well, as usual, my answer to "either/or" has been, "nah, both," so I've simply added (well, started to, anyway...!) the option (not even as an ACF, just a choice for the base class) to have a "subtyped" eidolon, which gives you the unchained version (with unchained evo points instead). I've written it so that if you don't start with a subtype, you can change to it at level up (but once selected, it's permenant.) I did it that way, because I could see some merit, in say, a flavorful character arc in doing something like the eidolon becoming an angel or something as the summoners gets More Gooder and stuff.



Killpede being what specifically (so I know what to work with, aside from the obvious Kali builds issues which I've hopefully edged down to santiy?)

[upho]

I'm not using PF in it's entirity (mostly stacking large chunks on top of 3.5 and having basically both forward and backward compatibility),I actually feel like my 3.Aotrs-fu is starting to become pretty decent in some areas from reading your posts here on GitP, and I've found many of your tweaks and 3.PF mix interesting. Is there any chance one might get to take a look at the "3.Aotrs Official Rules Document" in the near future? I believe I'd like to pilfer some of your stuff...



so aside from Legendary Proportions (as Enlarge Person won't work on an eidolon), what other size boosting options are there to be aware of?Aside from the PF 1PP version of share spells being different as you've noticed, it may be worth keeping in mind that it's definitely not a bad idea for a summoner to give their eidolon a sufficiently high UMD to reliably use at least wands and dorjes. Per the related PF rules this is possible by 10th level without any items or temporary buffs, at the cost of choosing UMD as one of the eidolon's four freely chosen class skills, 1/4 of its default skill points total, and 1 EP for the Skilled evo (for a total bonus to UMD of +19).


So especially if 3.Aotrs includes psionics (which I can't remember ATM), eidolons may very well become able to take care of their temporary up-sizing needs by themselves by using cheap dorjes of expansion (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/e/expansion/) or especially PF's fantastic metamorphosis (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/m/metamorphosis/) line of powers, the augmented or 3rd level versions of these powers also able to grant up to two size increases.



(You can probably skip magic items, since they are only likely to turn up in an AP or something hands out, given I'm trying to keep importing magic items for general PC purchase to relative minimum - 3.5 has enough to be going on with, one feels!)Ah, I see. This seems very reasonable IMO, although I think you'll still want to make a few of the PF items as easily accessible to the players as comparable 3.5 items, especially those more closely related to the PF rules elements you import (like you've done in the case of PF PC classes).


Speaking of, when it comes to summoner related items, I think especially the eidolon anchoring harness (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/harness-eidolon-anchoring/) is important to make available for purchase. And you should probably also consider importing for example the staff of eidolons (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/staves/staff-of-eidolons/), ring of ectoplasmic invigoration (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-ectoplasmic-invigoration/), rod of giant summoning (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rods/rod-of-giant-summoning/), summoner's robe (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/r-z/robe-summoner-s/) and visage of the bound (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/r-z/visage-of-the-bound/) unless there already exist 3.5 equivalents of course (I don't remember), even though most of these are more related to the SM line of spells rather than the summoner class specifically. (Note also that according to a clarification by Paizo devs regarding the summoner's SM SLA, it was intended to be fully compatible with feats related to summoning (such as Evolved Summoned Monster and Superior Summoning) and magic items like those mentioned, even though the descriptions for most of these only mention the SM spell.)



Training weapons are not in my list of stuff I've ported (I haven't gone through magic items specifically, only adding stuff when character classes call for it). amd considerng I have very deliberately lowered the feat tax for the combat maneuvers (and rolled the greaters into the improved), I think it would be wise not to, as I could see that could get out of hand very fast, and not even just for eidolans.My experience of training is actually surprisingly positive (and I've also removed several combat feat taxes in my games). I think this is mostly because the "must meet prereqs, can't be used to meet prereqs"-limitation typically reduces the number and value of the feats a PC may gain from it quite drastically, making it far less of a no-brainer for PCs to have multiple training weapons ASAP than one might initially fear will be the case. That said, I can certainly see how it can become problematic and I'm far from convinced the increased mechanical variety it allows is worth the potential trouble it may cause in all games, not to mention it also requires the GM carefully thinks through and clarifies what the infamous "drawn and in hand" clause actually means in their game, as there are quite a few fully possible and plausible RAW and RAI interpretations with quite different results to choose from.


(In my games, the clause means training only works on manufactured weapons which requires the wielder to have hands in order to be considered armed with them, and on amulets of mighty fists if the wielder has IUS or a natural attack using a hand (the PF version (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-mighty-fists/) can have magic weapon special abilities). A creature considered armed with multiple such magic weapons is also always treated as a two-handed humanoid when determining which of the weapons it could simultaneously benefit from, regardless of how many hands it actually has. In effect, a PC can at the very most gain training feats from five different items simultaneously: one gauntlet/similar magic weapon and one held magic weapon in each of two hands, plus one AoMF. And just in case you'll consider adding training to 3.Aotrs in the future, at least in the Paizo forum discussions I'm aware of the general consensus has been that a single magic weapon can have multiple stacking instances of training, each one providing a different feat (and exponentially increasing the item's market price), as per Paizo's official clarification of the similar bane weapon ability.)



Perhaps one simple solution is so add a line to my grapple rules such that if you deal Constrict damage, you cannot release the target until the start of your next turn. (Following the logic of Constrict require than the hold be maintained for a few seconds - Constrict is murderous enough I don't think giving it a slight nerf in edge cases would hurt it.)This would work fine if the goal is to reduce the effectiveness of using grab + constrict mainly as a full attack damage boost combo without decreasing its value for eidolons actually focused on grappling.


However, unless I've missed something, I think there's at least one potentially very good reason to allow this in 3.Aotrs and keep the mechanics as written, and that is that MWF with manufactured weapons would otherwise be such a total no-brainer choice of melee style for damage focused eidolons in 3.Aotrs. If you allow this, you effectively encourage a greater mechanical variety between such eidolons, and provide them with a reason to use a greater number of their unique abilities instead of mostly piling on additional arms.


So AFAICT, constrict with multiple grabbing natural attacks actually isn't especially murderous at all, but a pretty tame eidolon melee damage combat style in comparison to a pounce MWF style with easily more than three times as many attacks. (Note also that the constrict evo - which deals a lot more damage than any other constrict options available to eidolons in PF - can only be taken by eidolons with the serpentine base form, which means it can't be combined with the typically more important pounce evo.)



That said, Swallow Whole is itself not massively useful at the best of times as a damaging thing, since our combats have an average length of 2-4 rounds anyway, so it doesn't have much use beyond a delaying tactic (or screwing with someone who doesn't have a suitable implement in hand (or worse, at all!)) anyway.Yeah, it's definitely not a damage tool, but if it's made less easily escaped and disabled, it can definitely be a very useful component in some effective control combos also in the typical shorter combats.


For example, the first PF PC I actually built and played was a vanilla summoner with a very well-fed "grab-'n'-gobble"-buddy. By 14th level he would typically just hover like some gigantic fuzzy blue-green smiley icon near the center of the battlefield, and end each of his turns with his mouth full of whatever Huge or smaller baddie he had found within 40' of him. He'd start his following turn by swallowing his food, burp and say a few carefully chosen pretentious words to describe the taste, sounding like some upper-class sommelier forced to review the local redneck moonshine, while picking up his next horrified snack and carefully put it in his mouth, ending his turn with random flailing body parts poking out from his big smile. Thanks to feats like Snatch and Rapid Grappler, he could usually do this in each and every round of combat, with a little prep also the opening round, and he'd still often be capable of making grabbing AoOs and gather up enemies next to him between his turns. Note also that he wasn't particularly optimized, and I'm sure you could make a far more effective version, especially with all the options which have been released after I last played this summoner.


Oh, and once combat was over, he'd typically poke his big belly to check whether anyone was still alive and kicking in there, and then regurgitate and spit out one of his still breathing snacks, who would often turn out to be very interested in answering any questions in exchange for not being gobbled up again. As mentioned, if we had used the hp and AC of the swallow whole evo as written, my eidolon could've achieved a very similar result for example by using the Hog-tie Equipment Trick (Rope) (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/equipment-trick-combat/#Rope_Tricks) to immediately tie up grabbed enemies instead, but it sure wouldn't have been nearly as fun and flavorful.



Thus Kali-builds could definitely get more than seven weapon attacks (and much, much earlier) without that much trouble; not letting them to that AND get natural weapons seems wise.Yep, hence why I now believe you have no reason to worry about any grab-constrict full attack damage combos.



(Also, mechanically, my brain recoils a little bit at a quadruped (the only way to get pounce from an evolution, even with chained Summoner) with lots of weapon arms...!)Hmm... Although I can understand your reaction, it has never bothered me, probably because I've always imagined the base forms only as the most basic eidolon "starting points". Meaning things that only describes which category of existing creature body type the eidolon most resembles when the summoner first discovers it, and that have a rapidly decreasing influence over an eidolon's physical shape as it evolves into its own unique being. At least flavor-wise, my brain has instead recoiled a bit at stuff like evos permanently restricted exclusively to certain base forms, arms and legs always coming in pairs, too many of the evos only offering whatever version of it which is most commonly found among the creatures in the bestiaries, or that the base form's free evos can't eventually be traded back into EPs to fund other evos.


I guess my view on this can be glimpsed in some of the related alternatives I made for my evo-using Wrathblood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?442363-Wrathblood-The-Monster-Bloodrager-Archetype-New-and-Improved-Monstrous-Thread!) bloodrager archetype (shameless advertising of product in dire need of updates), along with my disgust for using "standard" mechanics which have already been proven to not work as intended countless times. (A far too commonly found favorite of mine is the awful "DC = 10 + half level + mod of ability score other than the primary of the class" given without any supporting options to make the DC functional. It's as if it has never occurred to the designers that it might be a good idea to check how well such a DC actually jams with the actual average saves of published creatures (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2-s8weiulPoBQjdI05LBzOUToyoZIdSsLKxHAvf8F8/edit#gid=3), instead of lazily using the standard formula which has been widely known to not match with the reality of the game for almost two decades).



Looking at what you COULD do it you really wanted to maximise the number of arms on an eidolon at the expense of other stuff, as it stands, you could fairly easily get more than eight (1+13 pairs, if you were REALLY keen on the idea) and one feels that maybe the point you think you want to make 56 attacks per round is... A little excessive. (Unchained vanilla PF plus ITWF/GTWF/PTWF would be an absurd 112(!).Yeah, a little excessive...



Granted, I would smack my player with... Probablt the Inner Sea World Guide, I think that's the heaviest book I would have on hand if they were to try that, but I do like to put SOME mechanical caps on beyond "dude, don't take the urine."I'd recommend you get the "Rise of the Runelords Deluxe Collector's Edition" and use that instead. Probably the heaviest book ever published for d20. And it has lotsa nice hard and sharp metal edges... And an evil symbol on the cover... And I've heard some people say it's actually a +5 greater munchkin bane vorpal adamantine tome of far-throwing lethal DM vengeance! So you'll probably only miss on a 1.


https://res.cloudinary.com/upho/image/upload/v1579836541/Rise_of_the_Runelords_Anniversary_Edition_collecto r_fixed_llsejj.png







The big question is what to set the evolution points at. Maybe make it an ACF that basically says "you pick this subtype, and get reduced evolution points (USum)" but don't restrict the evolutions more than the base (other than exclusive ones to a subtype, I'd have to parse the list to check if they are any).I think that should work. Or you might just snatch the more interesting evos and adjust their EP cost if needed, perhaps adding some additional restrictions in certain niche cases.

Psyren definitely has a point though, so I guess this mostly depends on the preferences of you players.



Hmm. Point. I think I would perhaps drop it to just straight Cha mod (minimum 1) (I don't like using fractions of modifers); that would put it at pretty much 4-5/day anway from the get-go, given our stat standards. That is probably enough, one feels. Fundementally, though, it's probably not going to make much of a difference between 3+ 1/2 Cha and Cha most of the time; you'd get slightly more at top level, but one feels at that point, everyone is more kind broken anyway! And we tends to run APs, (whcih cap at about 17) or fairly low-level on day quests, so the occasions of 20 or Epic are small (though not non-existant); currently I think there is only one party which is planned to go Epic and that party is already has characters.The reason for my rather unorthodox 3 + half Cha is that I wanted the class to still allow for less traditional builds without punishing them even more, like "tag-team" builds consisting of summoners with a Str primary and usually only enough Cha to be able to cast the highest spell levels they gain slots for at each level. If this isn't something you think your players are going to bother with anyways, there's of course little reason to not use straight Cha mod instead.

[Aotrs Commander]

I actually feel like my 3.Aotrs-fu is starting to become pretty decent in some areas from reading your posts here on GitP, and I've found many of your tweaks and 3.PF mix interesting. Is there any chance one might get to take a look at the "3.Aotrs Official Rules Document" in the near future? I believe I'd like to pilfer some of your stuff...

Sure, We can work something out, though it'll be a while yet - I'm still doing a it of fiddling with the character classes and then there will be a pass through the spells. (Whcih is going to be basically starrting down the Alchemist/Investigator list, the Inquistor list and a few others, plus any spells I like the look of from PF Kingmaker, oin the basis that all of the PF Clr/Ora and Sor/Wiz on top of 3.5+completes+PHbII+SpC+some sundery others+homebrew is a staggering amount, ad I'm only picking at the domains as I need to to get to a reasonable point! (Though, of course, 75% of the point of the exercise is to have foward and backward compatilbity between 3.5 and PF so that anything that isn't ported over from PF could be used anyway.)


Aside from the PF 1PP version of share spells being different as you've noticed, it may be worth keeping in mind that it's definitely not a bad idea for a summoner to give their eidolon a sufficiently high UMD to reliably use at least wands and dorjes. Per the related PF rules this is possible by 10th level without any items or temporary buffs, at the cost of choosing UMD as one of the eidolon's four freely chosen class skills, 1/4 of its default skill points total, and 1 EP for the Skilled evo (for a total bonus to UMD of +19).


So especially if 3.Aotrs includes psionics (which I can't remember ATM), eidolons may very well become able to take care of their temporary up-sizing needs by themselves by using cheap dorjes of expansion (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/e/expansion/) or especially PF's fantastic metamorphosis (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/m/metamorphosis/) line of powers, the augmented or 3rd level versions of these powers also able to grant up to two size increases.

Yeah, psionics (pretty much 100% updated to PF standard) plus ToB; I am deliberately NOT porting psychic magic across, since Mentalism was fine in Rolemaster where is all started as three realms, but it isn't necessary here. (Though this also has some benefit that PF has it, since when I com across stuff that might have psychic magic, I can replace it with psionics).

(I did consider whether to steal some of the psychic magic classes and make them into psionics, and then I looked at the build guids and was "nah, not worth it...")



Ah, I see. This seems very reasonable IMO, although I think you'll still want to make a few of the PF items as easily accessible to the players as comparable 3.5 items, especially those more closely related to the PF rules elements you import (like you've done in the case of PF PC classes).


Speaking of, when it comes to summoner related items, I think especially the eidolon anchoring harness (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/harness-eidolon-anchoring/) is important to make available for purchase. And you should probably also consider importing for example the staff of eidolons (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/staves/staff-of-eidolons/), ring of ectoplasmic invigoration (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-ectoplasmic-invigoration/), rod of giant summoning (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rods/rod-of-giant-summoning/), summoner's robe (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/r-z/robe-summoner-s/) and visage of the bound (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/r-z/visage-of-the-bound/) unless there already exist 3.5 equivalents of course (I don't remember), even though most of these are more related to the SM line of spells rather than the summoner class specifically. (Note also that according to a clarification by Paizo devs regarding the summoner's SM SLA, it was intended to be fully compatible with feats related to summoning (such as Evolved Summoned Monster and Superior Summoning) and magic items like those mentioned, even though the descriptions for most of these only mention the SM spell.)

Noted... Though I think I'll skip the rod, summon is potent enough as it is (and fiddly enought as it is to run)...!




My experience of training is actually surprisingly positive (and I've also removed several combat feat taxes in my games). I think this is mostly because the "must meet prereqs, can't be used to meet prereqs"-limitation typically reduces the number and value of the feats a PC may gain from it quite drastically, making it far less of a no-brainer for PCs to have multiple training weapons ASAP than one might initially fear will be the case. That said, I can certainly see how it can become problematic and I'm far from convinced the increased mechanical variety it allows is worth the potential trouble it may cause in all games, not to mention it also requires the GM carefully thinks through and clarifies what the infamous "drawn and in hand" clause actually means in their game, as there are quite a few fully possible and plausible RAW and RAI interpretations with quite different results to choose from.


(In my games, the clause means training only works on manufactured weapons which requires the wielder to have hands in order to be considered armed with them, and on amulets of mighty fists if the wielder has IUS or a natural attack using a hand (the PF version (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-mighty-fists/) can have magic weapon special abilities). A creature considered armed with multiple such magic weapons is also always treated as a two-handed humanoid when determining which of the weapons it could simultaneously benefit from, regardless of how many hands it actually has. In effect, a PC can at the very most gain training feats from five different items simultaneously: one gauntlet/similar magic weapon and one held magic weapon in each of two hands, plus one AoMF. And just in case you'll consider adding training to 3.Aotrs in the future, at least in the Paizo forum discussions I'm aware of the general consensus has been that a single magic weapon can have multiple stacking instances of training, each one providing a different feat (and exponentially increasing the item's market price), as per Paizo's official clarification of the similar bane weapon ability.)

Noted.


This would work fine if the goal is to reduce the effectiveness of using grab + constrict mainly as a full attack damage boost combo without decreasing its value for eidolons actually focused on grappling.

However, unless I've missed something, I think there's at least one potentially very good reason to allow this in 3.Aotrs and keep the mechanics as written, and that is that MWF with manufactured weapons would otherwise be such a total no-brainer choice of melee style for damage focused eidolons in 3.Aotrs. If you allow this, you effectively encourage a greater mechanical variety between such eidolons, and provide them with a reason to use a greater number of their unique abilities instead of mostly piling on additional arms.


So AFAICT, constrict with multiple grabbing natural attacks actually isn't especially murderous at all, but a pretty tame eidolon melee damage combat style in comparison to a pounce MWF style with easily more than three times as many attacks. (Note also that the constrict evo - which deals a lot more damage than any other constrict options available to eidolons in PF - can only be taken by eidolons with the serpentine base form, which means it can't be combined with the typically more important pounce evo.)

So, looking at the Constrict evolution and parsing it through my head... It doesn't gel. Constrict is only available to serpentine eidolons which take improved grab, but the constrict damage itself is not. You can only take Grab once, so you can only apply it to one natural weapon (which is good, because I would otherwise have put limitation, as I can't offhand think of creatures that get grab on multiple natural attacks; not to say they don't exist, but they aren't the majorty). So... Yeah, using a serpentine creature, giving it arms and claws attacks with constrict and using that to leverage in extra damage with constrict... I don't like that anymore than mutli-armed MWF base quadupeds. Might be RAW, but I don't think it is necessarily RAI.

And the more I think about it, the more I dislike conceptually the idea of grab-and-realse solely for damage. Grappling is already powerful (okay, it's been slightly nerfed from 3.5 by the reduction of grapple bonuses a bit, and large creatures ALSO don't get to double-tap their size bonus for CMD in the 3.Aotrs, but it's still very good. Let me just side-trek a bit: 3.Aotrs grappling is a hybrid of 3.5 and PF. To whit, if you are the grappler (i.e. the one in control of the grapple), you do have to spend an action to maintain it, but it's NOT a standard action, it's an attack (and you get iterative grapple attempts, like in 3.5, plus an extra one with Improved Grapple (if you're 6th level or higher). Grappling isn't about damage, it's about completely shafting the other guy's actions.

So I think I would prefer that grapple-and-release for constrict wasn't an issue.

By the same TOKEN, I don't think that Constrict HAS to be restricted to serpentine creatures, if it can be tied to a natural weapon, since as it current requires Grab (which gives you Improved Grab in 3.Aotrs, I've kept the "improved" part!), I don't see a reason why a scorpion eidolon couldn't have Constricting pincers, for instance - though as with everything else except explictly those two feats out of Draconomicon because dragons are broken - if it wants to do it with only one, it takes the -20 penalty like everyone else. (Note to self, reduce penalty a bit, given large+ creatures don't get so big grapple checks now.)




Yeah, it's definitely not a damage tool, but if it's made less easily escaped and disabled, it can definitely be a very useful component in some effective control combos also in the typical shorter combats.


For example, the first PF PC I actually built and played was a vanilla summoner with a very well-fed "grab-'n'-gobble"-buddy. By 14th level he would typically just hover like some gigantic fuzzy blue-green smiley icon near the center of the battlefield, and end each of his turns with his mouth full of whatever Huge or smaller baddie he had found within 40' of him. He'd start his following turn by swallowing his food, burp and say a few carefully chosen pretentious words to describe the taste, sounding like some upper-class sommelier forced to review the local redneck moonshine, while picking up his next horrified snack and carefully put it in his mouth, ending his turn with random flailing body parts poking out from his big smile. Thanks to feats like Snatch and Rapid Grappler, he could usually do this in each and every round of combat, with a little prep also the opening round, and he'd still often be capable of making grabbing AoOs and gather up enemies next to him between his turns. Note also that he wasn't particularly optimized, and I'm sure you could make a far more effective version, especially with all the options which have been released after I last played this summoner.


Oh, and once combat was over, he'd typically poke his big belly to check whether anyone was still alive and kicking in there, and then regurgitate and spit out one of his still breathing snacks, who would often turn out to be very interested in answering any questions in exchange for not being gobbled up again. As mentioned, if we had used the hp and AC of the swallow whole evo as written, my eidolon could've achieved a very similar result for example by using the Hog-tie Equipment Trick (Rope) (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/equipment-trick-combat/#Rope_Tricks) to immediately tie up grabbed enemies instead, but it sure wouldn't have been nearly as fun and flavorful.

Point noted, but I think I'll see how it goes, given that I don't hugely like the idea of eidolons getting to be better at Swallow Whole than every other creature.



I'd recommend you get the "Rise of the Runelords Deluxe Collector's Edition" and use that instead. Probably the heaviest book ever published for d20. And it has lotsa nice hard and sharp metal edges... And an evil symbol on the cover... And I've heard some people say it's actually a +5 greater munchkin bane vorpal adamantine tome of far-throwing lethal DM vengeance! So you'll probably only miss on a 1.


https://res.cloudinary.com/upho/image/upload/v1579836541/Rise_of_the_Runelords_Anniversary_Edition_collecto r_fixed_llsejj.png

Sadly, I had long-since bought the 3.5 edition and we'd only just starting running about the time that revisied edition came out, and I didn't feel like spending another £30-odd on it to revise the AP at that point...! (Actually, it'd have been more revision, since only now will 3.Aotrs be closer to PF than not!)



The reason for my rather unorthodox 3 + half Cha is that I wanted the class to still allow for less traditional builds without punishing them even more, like "tag-team" builds consisting of summoners with a Str primary and usually only enough Cha to be able to cast the highest spell levels they gain slots for at each level. If this isn't something you think your players are going to bother with anyways, there's of course little reason to not use straight Cha mod instead.

Unlikely to ever be a problem with our standard point buy for 3.Aotrs (base 8, plus 34 points (36 if no racial modifers), point-for-point, plus racial; only one stat allowed to be mor than 18). You can easily afford to have two 18s and have plenty of change if you wanted, so at that point, if you want dump your casting stat, one feels you really deserve what you get!

[Psyren]

Killpede being what specifically (so I know what to work with, aside from the obvious Kali builds issues which I've hopefully edged down to santiy?)

Nothing specific, it's just shorthand for an eidolon that min-maxes its offensive capability to such a degree that it ends up overshadowing every martial class at the table. Different groups draw that line in different places but in general, it's easier for the "chained" eidolon to do because its base forms tie up fewer build resources than the unchained one (ironically.)

Note that rebuilding your Eidolon can be accomplished through retraining if you're looking for a RAW method.

[upho]

Sure, We can work something out, though it'll be a while yet - I'm still doing a it of fiddling with the character classes and then there will be a pass through the spells.Thanks.


Yeah, psionics (pretty much 100% updated to PF standard) plus ToB;So I take it you also believe DSP generally did a better job than both WotC and Paizo did? If so, have you also considered replacing/complementing ToB with the PoW series (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Library_of_Metzofitz) and/or MoI with the far superior Akashic Mysteries (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/akashic-mysteries) (might very well be the best d20 PC option focused book I've ever read)?


Noted... Though I think I'll skip the rod, summon is potent enough as it is (and fiddly enought as it is to run)...!That's probably not a bad call; it's definitely very powerful, especially in the hands of a Summoner. (And yeah, fiddly summons can indeed become a very real issue. If you'd prefer you and your players stay at least somewhat sane and happy while playing, ask/plead/demand/beg/threaten/bribe especially Summoner players to have the modified stat blocks of anything they might want to summon - including any benefits from the Summoner's feats etc - ready in writing before each session.)


So, looking at the Constrict evolution and parsing it through my head... It doesn't gel. Constrict is only available to serpentine eidolons which take improved grab, but the constrict damage itself is not.Huh? Seems you might be confusing the PF "damage (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Gamemastering/Combat/#Damage-2)" grappling option with the constrict special attack (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules/#Constrict_Ex) which the evo grants (and for example the anaconda's coils belt (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-anaconda-s-coils/)) and/or possibly the automatic "maintain" damage added by the grab special attack (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules/#Grab_Ex).

Short summary of the related PF rules:


The "damage" option of grapple is one of the result options of successfully performing the specific action to maintain a previously initiated grapple, just like for example "move", "pin" or "tie up". This option deals damage "equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks), or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon". Maintaining a grapple is a standard action per default, but for example the Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler feats allows for additional CMB checks to maintain, using a move and a swift action.
Constrict is not a separate action, but simply a damaging rider effect which can be added to any successful CMB check to grapple, including the free action check to initiate a grapple provided by grab. The eidolon's constrict evo deals damage equal to that of the attack which used grab to initiate the grapple.
Grab itself also adds damage (same amount as the eidolon's constrict evo) to successful CMB checks per default, but only on those made to maintain a grapple during a turn after the grapple was initiated.

So if an eidolon with the above mentioned feats, Power Attack and a bite with the grab and constrict evos - let's call her "Grabby" - wanted to deal as much damage as possible grappling a foe, the resulting action/event sequence would typically be (assuming all Grabby's attacks/checks succeed and modest damage for Huge biped eidolon at 13th):

1. Grabby's 1st Turn
1.1 Any action granting a bite attack: Grabby deals 33 (2d6+26) damage.
1.2 Free - CMB check to initiate grapple, granted by grab evo: Grabby grapples the enemy.

1.3 None - damage due to successful grapple check, granted by constrict evo: Grabby deals 33 damage.

2. Enemy's 1st Turn
2.1 Enemy fails to break or reverse the grapple.

3. Grabby's 2nd Turn
3.1 Standard - CMB +5 check to maintain and damage: Grabby maintains the grapple and deals 33 damage.
3.2 None - damage due to successful maintain check, granted by grab evo: Grabby deals 33 damage.
3.3 None - damage due to successful grapple check, granted by constrict evo: Grabby deals 33 damage.

3.4 Move - CMB +5 check to maintain and damage granted by Greater Grapple: Grabby deals 33 damage.
3.5 None - damage due to successful maintain check, granted by grab evo: Grabby deals 33 damage.
3.6 None - damage due to successful grapple check, granted by constrict evo: Grabby deals 33 damage.

3.7 Swift - CMB +5 check to maintain and damage granted by Rapid Grappler: Grabby deals 33 damage.
3.8 None - damage due to successful maintain check, granted by grab evo: Grabby deals 33 damage.
3.9 None - damage due to successful grapple check, granted by constrict evo: Grabby deals 33 damage.


Result
Enemy has taken 363 damage and is most likely very dead.



You can only take Grab once, so you can only apply it to one natural weapon (which is good, because I would otherwise have put limitation, as I can't offhand think of creatures that get grab on multiple natural attacks; not to say they don't exist, but they aren't the majorty). Note that the grab evo applies to one type of natural attack, not one attack (compare to the reach evo which only applies to one attack). So the eidolon could certainly make up to 7 claw attacks in a full attack, each initiating a grapple as a free action and dealing constrict damage if successful, and release the grapple as a free action after each attack. (The mentioned Snatch feat grants grab to all bite and claw attacks, but requires Huge size.)

And in PF there are several creatures with grab on multiple attacks of one or more types, including quite a few "ordinary" animals like big cats (tiger (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/felines/cat-great/tiger/)s, mountain lions (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/felines/cat-great/lion-mountain-tohc/), etc). IIRC, few of those with grab on more than one type of attack also have constrict, however.


And the more I think about it, the more I dislike conceptually the idea of grab-and-realse solely for damage.
...
Grappling isn't about damage, it's about completely shafting the other guy's actions.Well, I totally agree, and I think especially PF went completely overboard with the damage boosts for grappling, even outside the most likely unintended grab-constrict-release full attack combo (which I hope Grabby also illustrated in the spoiler above). It should've been more action-denial control instead, especially considering there's already far more than enough other ways to deal tons of damage. The reason I thought it could possibly be worth importing these overly damage focused mechanics to 3.Aotrs despite all this, is that they at least could provide a melee damage alternative to the MWF style, albeit weaker especially for eidolons.


So I think I would prefer that grapple-and-release for constrict wasn't an issue.

By the same TOKEN, I don't think that Constrict HAS to be restricted to serpentine creatures, if it can be tied to a natural weapon, since as it current requires Grab (which gives you Improved Grab in 3.Aotrs, I've kept the "improved" part!), I don't see a reason why a scorpion eidolon couldn't have Constricting pincers, for instance - though as with everything else except explictly those two feats out of Draconomicon because dragons are broken - if it wants to do it with only one, it takes the -20 penalty like everyone else. (Note to self, reduce penalty a bit, given large+ creatures don't get so big grapple checks now.)I agree.


Point noted, but I think I'll see how it goes, given that I don't hugely like the idea of eidolons getting to be better at Swallow Whole than every other creature.One solution is to give the evo an upgrade option; say an additional 2 EP for a more resilient tummy. But regardless, this really is a minor detail all things considered, and I agree it doesn't really deserve more of your attention unless it actually turns out to be an issue (as it did for my Summoner's eidolon before the GM changed the evo).


Sadly, I had long-since bought the 3.5 edition and we'd only just starting running about the time that revisied edition came out, and I didn't feel like spending another £30-odd on it to revise the AP at that point...! (Actually, it'd have been more revision, since only now will 3.Aotrs be closer to PF than not!)I have the revised "Anniversary Edition", but I often regret I only bought the PDF. I mean, you can't use the damn thing to slap munchkin players, and my laptop would surely break on their thick and hard heads...


Unlikely to ever be a problem with our standard point buy for 3.Aotrs (base 8, plus 34 points (36 if no racial modifers), point-for-point, plus racial; only one stat allowed to be mor than 18). You can easily afford to have two 18s and have plenty of change if you wanted, so at that point, if you want dump your casting stat, one feels you really deserve what you get!Whoa! That's... a very generous point buy. Yeah, I certainly agree this means using a flat Cha mod is highly unlikely to ever be a problem.


Nothing specific, it's just shorthand for an eidolon that min-maxes its offensive capability to such a degree that it ends up overshadowing every martial class at the table. Different groups draw that line in different places but in general, it's easier for the "chained" eidolon to do because its base forms tie up fewer build resources than the unchained one (ironically.)A.k.a. the "Munchkolon", "D**kolon" and "Assholon"...

[Kris Moonhand]

Yeah, psionics (pretty much 100% updated to PF standard) plus ToB; I am deliberately NOT porting psychic magic across, since Mentalism was fine in Rolemaster where is all started as three realms, but it isn't necessary here. (Though this also has some benefit that PF has it, since when I com across stuff that might have psychic magic, I can replace it with psionics).

(I did consider whether to steal some of the psychic magic classes and make them into psionics, and then I looked at the build guids and was "nah, not worth it...")Some of that is already kinda done, in the form of the Shattered Mind Occultist (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Shattered_Mind), Athanatic Channeler Spiritualist (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Athanatic_Channeler), and Empath Medium (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Empath). Empath, in particular, is a huge rework of Medium, and far superior to the base class. It probably should have been a separate class of its own to be honest, but whatcha gonna do?

[Aotrs Commander]

I mean, I would have responded yesterday, but...


So I take it you also believe DSP generally did a better job than both WotC and Paizo did? If so, have you also considered replacing/complementing ToB with the PoW series (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Library_of_Metzofitz) and/or MoI with the far superior Akashic Mysteries (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/akashic-mysteries) (might very well be the best d20 PC option focused book I've ever read)?

I have and elected that at the moment, I really don't feel like going through and revising the entire of ToB (since at the moment, I think, there is probably only one party of the five or so in rotation that doesn't have a ToB class somewhere) to bring it up to standard (and potentially tunign down some of those options) at the current time, double-especially since it would require making and cutting out (and storing) a FRACK ton of maneouver cards. I mean, I'm not saying never, but with essentially re-writing to the point where I have probably 600-700 pages of stuff I think was enough to be getting on with.[/quote]


Huh? Seems you might be confusing the PF "damage (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Gamemastering/Combat/#Damage-2)" grappling option with the constrict special attack (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules/#Constrict_Ex) which the evo grants (and for example the anaconda's coils belt (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-anaconda-s-coils/)) and/or possibly the automatic "maintain" damage added by the grab special attack (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules/#Grab_Ex).

No, what I mean is the Constrict evolution is only allowed to be applied to serpentine eidolons, but said constrict ability is applied to (one set) of natural weapons. So saying "this snake with claws can use Constrict with claws, but this humanoid with a tail can use contrict with the tail," is nonsense rubbish. It's either an ability that applies to the natural weapon or the creature's body.



[Rules summary and example]Short summary of the related PF rules:

You know what would be real smart of me to do? Post the 3.Aotrs grapple rules...!

One of the thing that ALWAYS bugged the crap out of me and PF is as guilty as 3.5, is that the grapple rules were always written from the standpoint of human verses human with the monster special abilities written elsewhere; when the SINGLE most common instance of grappling that comes up is ALWAYS said monsters with those abilities. Havign forever have to flip through a book to at least two places or two books all the time is, I think, one of the reasons why grappling's reputation of being "too complicated" comes at least in part. Granted, it is definitely the most complicated combat maneouvre, but having important bits sliced up and placed elsewhere REALLY did not help.

(The only exception in the 3.A is Swallow Whole, because a) it's specifically a special attack, so you might not necessarily immediately look in the grapple rules for it and b) technically ends the grapple is you succeed anyway, but I've pasted that in here as well for completeness.)

I took a page of of my own Accelerate and Attack rules for starship boarding combat (another subsystem within a subsystem) and differentiated between the attacker (who started the grapple) and the defender, because it makes it a lot easier to deal with options and how to phrase the rules. (In the same way I have adopted "Advantage and Disadvantage) out of 5E for terminology, since it's so much easier to write "with advantage" than "roll twice and take the best.")

(This bit of 3.Aotrs is probably the single most 100% Bleakbane'd part, since I just re-wrote it entirely, rather than copy/paste/adapt like most of the rest of it, but I felt it needed it.)



3.Aotrs CMB & CMD, for reference

CMB: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

Special Size Modifier: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8

Tiny and smaller creatures use their Dexterity bonus instead of Strength bonus on combat manoeuvres checks if it is higher. Creatures using Dexterity on these checks (e.g. due to size or Agile Manoeuvres feat) are marked with (Dex) next to their CMB check modifier.

CMD: Touch AC plus Base attack bonus + Strength modifier

Flat-footed CMD: CMD minus Dexterity and Dodge bonuses

Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMD when resisting specific maneuvers. All bonuses that apply to your touch AC (i.e. everything but armour, shield and natural armour bonuses) perforce increase your CMD, and all penalties that affect your (touch) AC also reduce your CMD. A flat-footed creature is denied its Dexterity bonus (and any dodge bonus) to its CMD.



Grapple

For readability, the creature that currently controls the grapple is referred to as the grappler, and the creature that it is grappling is the defender. The creature that initated the grapple starts and remains as the grappler, until the defender wins a Gain The Upper Hand Grappling action to take control.

You may attempt to start a grapple in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Grapple feat, or a similar ability, initiating a grapple provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the grapple check. Creatures with Improved Grab gain a +4 bonus the grapple checks to initiate the grapple and while they are the grappler.

If your attack is successful, both you and your foe become Grappled and you deal unarmed strike damage to the defender. If you have the Constrict ability, you deal this damage as well. (You may opt not to constrict if you desire.) If you have Improved Grab, you do not deal unarmed strike damage (as the attack damage has already been dealt by your natural weapon).

If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails).

If you are the grappler, you can release the grapple as a Free action, removing the condition from both you and the defender. If you deal damage with Constrict, however, you cannot volentarily release the grapple as a Free action until the start of your next turn. (Added nominally.)

If you do not release the defender, you must move into the defenders’s space on your next turn (unless the target is already in your space). This is a free action that provokes an attack of opportunity from all foes but the defender (as the defender is Grappled and thus does not threaten an area). If you cannot move into the defender’s space, the grapple ends and the Grappled condition is removed from both you and the defender.

If you have Improved Grab, you instead automatically pull the defender into your space. This does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If you cannot move the defender to your space, the grapple ends and the Grappled condition is removed from you and the defender.

If you have Improved Grab, you can additionally choose to conduct the grapple normally or to hold a creature of up to the noted size class in the Improved Grab ability with just that part of your body and avoid becoming Grappled yourself. If you choose this option, you take a –12 penalty to CMB on grapple checks and a –12 penalty to CMD verses grapple manoeuvres.

(Reduced to to -12 because that meant that grapple size modifier+penalty panned out the same for Collosal creatures - who don't need any extra help! (16-20 verses 8-12), and is less punishing for not as large creatures than in 3.5.)

Actions During a grapple

During a grapple, you may only take Grapple actions as noted below. Unless noted, each of these Grapple actions is in place melee attack; if your base attack bonus is high enough to grant iterative attacks with an unarmed strike (BAB of 6 or higher), when you make a Full Attack action you may make a grappling action for each attack you would have. Your bonus on Grapple checks is reduced by 5 for each additional attack you make, just like with iterative attacks. (The opponent’s CMD is not.) You do not gain any additional attacks from sources such as Haste, Rapid Shot or Flurry of Blows except for Improved Grapple, which grants you one extra grapple action at your highest base attack bonus if you take the Full Attack option and are of 6th level/6 HD or more.

If you are the grappler, to maintain the grapple you must perform one of the actions marked in bold each round as your first grapple action (and thus using a Standard action or a Full Attack action), or the grapple ends immediately. You may use any type of Grappling action for your iterative attempts.

If you have Improved Grab and are not Grappled yourself, as long as the grapple is maintained, you may use your Move action to take the defender with you (assuming you can move their load) when you move without requiring the Move Grapple action. (You may still use the Move Grapple action as well if you desire.)

If you have the Constrict special ability, whenever you succeed on your grapple checks, you apply your Constrict damage (unless you choose not to).

Multiple Grapplers

Multiple creatures can attempt to grapple one target. There can be only one grappler, but there maybe more than one defender (if the grappler can maintain a hold on more than one creature due to high BAB or special abilities). If the grappler has allies, the grappler is the only one that makes a check (allies can use the Aid Another action as noted below). Multiple creatures can also use Aid Another on a defender in breaking free from a grapple.

A grapple action can only be targeted at a single creature, unless it specifically requires you to beat all the other grapplers (or it has is own targeting criterion, such as a spell or maneuovre).

If you are attempting to grapple a creature that is already Grappled, you can make a grapple check in place of a melee attack against your opponent (either the grappler or the defender(s)) and you join the grapple if you suceed (you become Grappled). This does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

If you are neither the grappler nor the defender you, may leave the grapple as a Standard action without requiring a grapple or Escape Artist check.


Ranged Fire into a Grapple

If you make a ranged attack against a creature in a grapple, you must take a –10 penalty on your attack roll or roll randomly to see which creature in the grapple your attack will strike. The penalty does not apply to a creature which I not itself Grappled (e.g. using Improved Grab to hold an opponent just with one natural weapon).

Grappling Actions

(Note that in the document, the bolded stuff is not green text, but on a green paragraph, making it much easier to find.)

Aid Another: This action cannot be taken by the grappler. As a Standard action, you make a grapple check verses a DC of 10. If you succeed, you grant either the grappler or one defender a +2 bonus on their grapple check until the start of your next turn.

Attack with Weapon: You can attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon or one-handed or light weapon a creature within your reach (including a creature you are grappling with). You can attack with a ranged weapon if you have one that can be used in one hand, but only against a creature within your natural reach. You make a normal attack roll but take a penalty of –4 to this attack. (Note that a creature with natural weapons can only attack once with each natural weapon per round.) You do not need to make a grapple check.

Cast A Spell: A spell or spell-like ability (including invocations) can only be cast if it has no somatic components and any material components are in hand. This requires the spell’s normal casting action, which normally precludes the grappler (but not the defender)from casting a spell unless it is also Swift or Immediate. Any spell which requries precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or pinned. The caster must make a Concentration check of DC (DC 10 + the opponent’s grapple check modifier + the level of the spell you’re casting) or lose the spell.

Damage Your Opponent: Make a grapple check. If succeed, you deal unarmed strike damage to your opponent. This is nonlethal damage, unless you choose to take a –4 penalty on your grapple check or have Improved Unarmed Strike (or a similar ability). If you have Improved Grab, you instead deal damage for the natural weapon holding the target (or that initiatied the grapple) and this damage is lethal.

Break Another’s Pin: If you are grappling an opponent thathas another creature pinned, you can attempt to break the pin. Make a grapple check. If succeed, the pinned creature is freed and loses the Pinned condition, but remains Grappled.

Escape the Grapple: Only the defender can make this action. Make a grapple check. If succeed, you escape the grapple and lose the Grappled condition. You appear in an empty space of your choice next to the grappler. If there is no free space, you are still no longer Grappled, but take a –10 penalty to CMD to resist being grappled again until you are out of the grappler’s space. If there is more than one creature in the grapple, you must beat all the other individual CMDs. (Willing creatures allow to to automatically beat their CMD.)

You may make an Escape Artist check instead of a grapple check, but only as a Standard action.

Gain the Upper Hand: This can only be used by the defender. Make a grapple check. If you succeed, you gain control of the grapple and become the grappler. The previous grappler now becomes the defender. As the grappler, you may now take any actions available to grapplers, such releasing the defender and ending the grapple or Pinning the defender. If there is more than one creature in the grapple, you must beat all the other individual grapple checks. (Willing creatures may forgo making a check to resist you.)

You may also use this action to action to start a separate grapple with a creature in the grapple that is neither the grappler nor the defender, splitting off into a new grapple. You become the grappler in this new grapple, and your target becomes the new defender.

You cannot use this action if the opponent is too large to allow you to have initatied a grapple against it. If you are being grappled by a creature that would be too large for you to grapple that is using Improved Grab to hold you with one natural weapon, you can use this grapple action to force it to have to use its whole body to grapple you. In this case, if you succeed on your grapple check, you do not become the grappler, but the grappler either becomes Grappled itself or has to release you immediately (if it is able to do so).

Initiative A Maneouvre: A character cannot be in a stance while Grappled (until the stance specifically states otherwise). Using a maneouvre requires the maneouvre’s normal initiating action, which normally precludes the grappler (but not the defender) from initiating a maneouvre unless it can be activated as a Move, Swift or Immediate action. Strikes suffer the same restrictions as Attack with Weapon.

Any maneouvre which requires precise and careful action is impossible to use while grappling or pinned.

Manifest A Power: Manifesting a power requires the power’s normal manifesting action, which normally precludes the grappler (but not the defender) from manifesting a power unless it can be manifested as a Move, Swift or Immediate action.

Any power which requires precise and careful non-mental action is impossible to cast while grappling or pinned.

Move Grapple: Make a grapple check. If succeed, you can move both yourself and all others in the grapple up to half your speed. If you are the grappler, at the end of your movement, you can place the defender in any square adjacent to you and release the grapple. If you attempt to place the defender in a hazardous location, such as in a Wall of Fire or over a pit, the defender receives a free attempt to escape your grapple with a +4 bonus. If there is more than one creature in the grapple, you must beat all the other individual grapple checks. (Willing creatures may forgo making a check to resist you.) You gain a +4 bonus to move a Pinned target if no-one else is involved in the grapple.

Pin Opponent: You must be the grappler to use this grapple action (i.e., you must be in control of the grapple). Make a grapple check. If succeed, you give the defender the Pinned condition for one round. Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the Grappled condition. You may prevent the Pinned defender from speaking at your option.

Scuffle: You make one of the following combat maneouvres, at a penalty of –4.

You may make a Dirty Trick or Trip combat maneuvre against the grappler or the defender. As a Grappled creature does not threaten an area, the normal attack of opportunity (if any) cannot be made by the target.

If using Trip and you are the grappler, if you succeed, you knock the defender and any creatures assisting them with Aid Another prone. You can maintain the grapple while remaining standing or become prone with them or end the grapple as a free action.

If you are the grappler and are knocked prone, the defender automatically becomes prone with you, as do any creatures who are assisting either of you with Aid Another.

The grappler may also make a Reposition attempt on the defender (there must be sufficient room for the defender to be moved out of your space). If the grappler is successful, the grapple is automatically ended at the end of the maneuvre as the defender is no longer in your space.

If you are the grappler, you may make a special sort of Bull Rush maneouvre. If you succeed, you replace the normal Bull Rush movement with pushing all enemy creatures half the normal distance (minimum five feet) from you into unoccupied spaces (determined randomly). (They must each be in a different space if there is room, but are distributed evenly into available spaces (and knocked prone) if not.) This ends the grapple. Any other creatures in the grapple must move to an unoccupied space on the start of their next turn or fall prone.

Swallow Whole: If you start your turn as the grappler with an opponent Grappled in your mouth, you may Swallow Whole with a sucessful grapple check (see Special Attacks). [Repeated here]


Swallow Whole (Ex): If a creature with this special attack begins its turn as the grappler with an opponent Grappled in its mouth, it can try to swallow a creature smaller than itself by making a successful grapple check as a grappling action, dealing bite damage. This counts as an action to maintain the grapple. The grappled opponent is succesfully swallowed, the grapple is ended, though opponent retains the Grappled condition while swalloed, but the swallowing creature is not longer Grappled.

Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category smaller than the swallowing creature. Unless otherwise noted, the creature’s stomach can hold one creature of one size smaller than itself, two creatures of 2 sizes smaller than itself, 8 creatures three sizes smaller than itself, 32 four sizes smaller than iself, 128 creatures five sizes smaller than itself or 512 creatures six sizes smaller than itself.

Being swallowed causes a creature to take damage each round. The amount and type of damage varies and is given in the creature’s statistics. A swallowed creature is Grappled, while the creature that did the swallowing is not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage (dealt to the creature’s normal hit points) required to get free is equal to 1/10 the creature’s total hit points), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + ½ its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If a swallowed creature cuts its way out, the swallowing creature cannot use swallow whole again until the damage is healed. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.

A swallowed character that cuts it way out must use a Standard action, Move action, or 5-foot-step to move out and escape. This applies whether the acting character is the one who cut his way free or another swallowed character making use the exit carved by another character.

Retrieve Item: As a Move action or in place of an attack, you make a grapple check. If you succeed, you can draw a light weapon or retrive an item from a pouch or belt (such as a spell component).

If you are the grappler and the defender is pinned, as an attack action, you may instead make a disarm or steal attempt at a –4 penalty on the defender.

Tie Up: If you have the defender Pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up automatically. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your grapple modifier. You may substitute your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier for this purpose. The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin.

If you are grappling the defender, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a grapple check, which is made at a –10 penalty. You may not apply you Dexterity modifer in place of your Strength modifier in this case (unless you already use your Dexterity bonus on grapple checks).

If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the defenders’s grapple modifier or Escape Artist modifier, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check (the 20 is 30 rule does not apply, since this is an attack roll, not a skill check).

A creature that is tied up is “bound” which means it has the Helpless condition. A helpless target is treated as having a Dex of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

Use Opponent’s Weapon: If your opponet is holding a light or one-handed weapon, you may attempt to attack them with it. Make a grapple check. If you succeed, you make an attack on the target with their weapon with a –4 modifier. You use your own Base attack bonus and strength modifier (and any approproate weapon-related feats).



For completeness:
Snatch
Prerequisites: Size Huge or larger.
Benefit: The creature can choose to start a grapple when it hits with a claw or bite attack, as though it had the Improved Grab special attack. If the creature gets a hold on a creature three or more sizes smaller, it squeezes each round as a free action for automatic bite or claw damage at the start of its turn and does not need to use a grapple action to maintain the hold. (You can make additional grapple actions such as Damage Your Opponent on the grabbed target(s) as normal, but you do not gain additional damage on these actions unless you also have the Constrict special attack.)

If only a single opponent is grapped by either Tail Constrict or Snatch or any similar abilities, the creature does not take the –12 penalty to CMD verses grapple manoeuvres for holding an opponent with one body part.

A snatched opponent held in the creature’s mouth is not allowed a Reflex save against the creature’s breath weapon, if it has one.

The creature can drop a creature it has snatched as a Free action or use a Standard action to fling one grabbed creature aside. A flung creature travels 1D6 × 10 feet, and takes D6 points of damage per 10 feet travelled. If the creature flings a snatched opponent while flying, the opponent takes this amount or falling damage, whichever is greater.

Tail Constrict
You can make constriction attacks with your tail.
Prerequisites: Dragon, Snatch, Improved Snatch.
Benefit: You can grab and constrict creatures you hit with your tail slap attack. This works just like a snatch attack, except that it can be used against any creature smaller than you.

If you successfully grab an opponent with your tail, you deal bludgeoning damage equal to your tail slap damage plus 1 ½ times your Strength modifier. Each round, a held creature is constricted for tail slap damage as a Free action at the start of your turn and you do not need to use a grapple action to maintain the hold. (You can make additional grapple actions such as Damage Your Opponent on the grabbed target(s) as normal, but you do not gain additional damage on these actions actions unless you also have the Constrict special attack.)

If only a single creature is grapped by either Tail Constrict or Snatch or any similar abilities, you do not take the –12 (--6 with Improved Snatch) penalty to CMD verses grapple manoeuvres for holding an opponent with one body part.

You cannot make tail slap or tail sweep attacks while constricting an opponent with your tail.




Well, I totally agree, and I think especially PF went completely overboard with the damage boosts for grappling, even outside the most likely unintended grab-constrict-release full attack combo (which I hope Grabby also illustrated in the spoiler above). It should've been more action-denial control instead, especially considering there's already far more than enough other ways to deal tons of damage. The reason I thought it could possibly be worth importing these overly damage focused mechanics to 3.Aotrs despite all this, is that they at least could provide a melee damage alternative to the MWF style, albeit weaker especially for eidolons.

I think this is another case of wait-and-see. One might say that, with the enormous amount of bloat I've added to the character classes, there is a possibility that some of this stuff might not see action much (or at all, it's a possibility! As I did this project, I flat cut-out a load of 3.5 content that I'd written up and no-one, not even me had remembered existed, let alone used...!) Sometimes, there is no substitute to giving it a proper go. I mean, it's not like I set anything in 100% stone, as evidenced by the very existance of 3.A!