A World Ruled by Monsters (Diafell)

[werescythe]

So recently one of the DMs for my group is leaving, so the rest of the group might be wanting me to step up to the plate and I have this idea for a setting, that I thought I would share with you all and try to get some feedback.

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This world is an alternate take on Greek Mythology, here the Gods and the Titan's war has gone on much longer, to the point that a part of the world consisting of the decaying corpses of these fallen beings and their blood has spilled into the oceans and rivers, tainting the waters. In these pools were the blood of Titans and Gods meet, Monsters are born and crawl onto the land. The first to rise from the red waves is Typhon and his mate, Echidna.

When the war finally comes to an end, the Gods are victorious but their numbers are so few that they are no match for Typhon, Echidna and their allies. The remaining Gods are banished to Tartarus and many of these powerful monsters rise up to become gods themselves to both monsters and humans alike.

With Typhon and Echidna taking on the roles of Zeus and Hera, other monstrous beings take their own divine thrones. Scylla becoming a ruler over the bloodied seas and Medusa taking over the throne of the one who cursed her, Athena.

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When it comes to player races their are some that I have explanations for and others I am not sure about.
-Humans (obviously)
-Dwarves (perhaps past servants of Hephaestus)
-Orcs/Half Orcs/Goblins (one of the many beasts that rose).
-Centeurs/Minotaurs (one of the many species created by Typhon and Echidna's union)
-Harpies (another race from Typhon's union with Echidna, also a custom race I've been working on for a while now).

However, I am not too sure, how to integrate the other PHB races or even if I should. A part of me wants to work in Elves/Half-Elves into the setting, but I'm not too sure how.

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The thought is that it isn't so much the players against these new monstrous deities but working with or against other factions in this world.

Well any thoughts or ideas on/for this setting would be greatly appreciated. :smallsmile:

[Fable Wright]

Have you perhaps heard of Odyssey of the Dragonlords? You can get the Player's Guide on DriveThruRPG (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/267073/Odyssey-of-the-Dragonlords-Players-Guide) for free. It contains races and lore for Medusae, Sirens, Minotaurs, Centaurs, Nymphs, and Satyrs. The mechanics and fluff may be useful to you.

[werescythe]

Have you perhaps heard of Odyssey of the Dragonlords? You can get the Player's Guide on DriveThruRPG (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/267073/Odyssey-of-the-Dragonlords-Players-Guide) for free. It contains races and lore for Medusae, Sirens, Minotaurs, Centaurs, Nymphs, and Satyrs. The mechanics and fluff may be useful to you.

I suppose I will look into that. Personally, I feel that the whole Petrification ability is really strong when given as a player race, so I was thinking of having it be a Sorcerer Subclass (which I have also been working on). As for Minotaurs and Centaurs, I believe they are in the Guide to Ravnica.

[Fable Wright]

I suppose I will look into that. Personally, I feel that the whole Petrification ability is really strong when given as a player race, so I was thinking of having it be a Sorcerer Subclass (which I have also been working on). As for Minotaurs and Centaurs, I believe they are in the Guide to Ravnica.

Sure. Those concerns are handled in the guide. Minotaurs and Centaurs have a variety of implementations that may or may not be appropriate; Minotaurs have at least 3 write-ups by now for Ravnican, Krynnish, and now Odyssey of the Dragonlords, which is an aggressively Hellenistic setting.

Medusas in the book gain the ability to use an action to force a low, flat DC save (starts at 8 at level 5, gets to 14 by level 20) vs paralysis for one target, with a potential extra save (with Disadvantage) forced on a bonus action. Fail a total of three saves in an encounter and you're petrified for good. The low DC and extra save at disadvantage, plus action cost, turn it into something akin to an unusual (and flavorful) cantrip without ever being overwhelming, especially not for boss monsters. It's a clever solution IMO.

[JNAProductions]

Sure. Those concerns are handled in the guide. Minotaurs and Centaurs have a variety of implementations that may or may not be appropriate; Minotaurs have at least 3 write-ups by now for Ravnican, Krynnish, and now Odyssey of the Dragonlords, which is an aggressively Hellenistic setting.

Medusas in the book gain the ability to use an action to force a low, flat DC save (starts at 8 at level 5, gets to 14 by level 20) vs paralysis for one target, with a potential extra save (with Disadvantage) forced on a bonus action. Fail a total of three saves in an encounter and you're petrified for good. The low DC and extra save at disadvantage, plus action cost, turn it into something akin to an unusual (and flavorful) cantrip without ever being overwhelming, especially not for boss monsters. It's a clever solution IMO.

Now, having not seen the whole text of the ability and only going off what you described, that sounds... Not so much OVERPOWERED as NOT FUN.

You face the first BBEG at level, say, 6. You force him to make a DC 8 save against Paralysis. If he saves, you wasted your action-okay, happens. If he FAILS... The rest of the party gets auto-crits in melee with advantage to-hit, and the Paladin smites him off the face of the planet. An ability that has a low chance of a massively powerful effect (which Paralysis IS) is, to me, not as good for 5E as an ability with a weaker effect that's more likely to go off.

[werescythe]

Sure. Those concerns are handled in the guide. Minotaurs and Centaurs have a variety of implementations that may or may not be appropriate; Minotaurs have at least 3 write-ups by now for Ravnican, Krynnish, and now Odyssey of the Dragonlords, which is an aggressively Hellenistic setting.

Medusas in the book gain the ability to use an action to force a low, flat DC save (starts at 8 at level 5, gets to 14 by level 20) vs paralysis for one target, with a potential extra save (with Disadvantage) forced on a bonus action. Fail a total of three saves in an encounter and you're petrified for good. The low DC and extra save at disadvantage, plus action cost, turn it into something akin to an unusual (and flavorful) cantrip without ever being overwhelming, especially not for boss monsters. It's a clever solution IMO.

Yeah, I'm kind of leaning toward using more official content (and to a slight extent some of my own, considering that it is my setting) for this game. I also kind of have to agree with JNAProductions's opinion on the medusa in that book. I think I will stick to my medusa sorcerer origin idea for now.

What I mainly need help with is finding ways to make the other player races work and perhaps taking some of the bigger monsters from Greek Mythology and making a pantheon out of them. A part of me is thinking of taking Argus (the watcher with 100 eyes) and making him into a large slime like entity.

[lordarkness]

Some thoughts on including other races:

It seems like you might be missing residual influence from the old Gods providing an opportunity. Perhaps they live on in their offspring: Elves could be athena/apollo children, dwarves could be hephaestus or zeus (if they are taller), hobgoblins spawned from Ares, etc. Paladins could even be more of a race than a class. Perhaps the Gods in Tartarus continue the fight against the monsters by proxy through their offspring and their "clerics" the sorcerers. Or perhaps clerics follow the Old Gods and sorcerers follow the new ones as they are locked in an ongoing war that the old Gods had lost long ago (making it more of an ongoing rebellion against impossible odds in a battle against extinction).

One thing that might matter is if the monster gods here evil by default or if they run the gamut of alignments but only vary in their expressions of them.

[Fable Wright]

Now, having not seen the whole text of the ability and only going off what you described, that sounds... Not so much OVERPOWERED as NOT FUN.

You face the first BBEG at level, say, 6. You force him to make a DC 8 save against Paralysis. If he saves, you wasted your action-okay, happens. If he FAILS... The rest of the party gets auto-crits in melee with advantage to-hit, and the Paladin smites him off the face of the planet. An ability that has a low chance of a massively powerful effect (which Paralysis IS) is, to me, not as good for 5E as an ability with a weaker effect that's more likely to go off.

So you're saying that Hold Person is an unfun spell and shouldn't be used at real tables?

[JNAProductions]

So you're saying that Hold Person is an unfun spell and shouldn't be used at real tables?

Hold Person is just as likely to land as any other spell you cast-a good chance of inflicting a potent condition at the cost of resources. (Assuming the enemy is, in fact, a person, and not a monster.) While you cannot rely on the spell going off, it's got a good chance of happening-you just have to weigh the pros and cons. Is it worth the slot? Would I be better off using a save for half damage spell? Etc. etc.

The ability you brought up, assuming I have not misinterpreted what was said, is usable at-will, and inflicts the same condition just with a much lower chance. Those are some pretty key differences.

In addition, I"d actually be interested in seeing Hold Person and similar spells changed to inflict a moderate condition on a failure, and a more devastating one on a big failure (say, by 5+). It is an all-or-nothing spell, which I'd like to see less of.

[Fable Wright]

The ability you brought up, assuming I have not misinterpreted what was said, is usable at-will, and inflicts the same condition just with a much lower chance. Those are some pretty key differences.

It's also a one round duration, targets Con saves, and can be entirely prevented by using the rules to avert your gaze.

Let's put it this way. For my action + bonus action, against a boss with no Con save proficiency and a +3 modifier, I can force a 50% chance of paralysis for one round, if he doesn't avert his gaze from the obvious medusa. Let's say the Medusa is playing a Rogue here, hoping for enemies to avert their gaze for the free advantage. Is giving up their Sneak Attack + Cunning Action to force the saves really the best thing they could be doing in a boss fight?

As a Cleric considering a 3rd level Hold Person against the boss's Wis save of +3, I can force a 60% chance for ongoing paralysis against him, and a 60% chance for ongoing paralysis against his lieutenant, and use my bonus action to make a Spiritual Weapon attack with auto crit vs a paralyzed target.

In the final fight, when resource expenditure doesn't matter because it's time to nova, why is this ability worse than the existence of Hold Person? It's probably better than a cantrip, but by how much? As a racial ability, is it worse than at will flight from harpies?


In addition, I"d actually be interested in seeing Hold Person and similar spells changed to inflict a moderate condition on a failure, and a more devastating one on a big failure (say, by 5+). It is an all-or-nothing spell, which I'd like to see less of.

Sure, and Pathfinder 2e did that if you want to see it in action. But in the system as it stands, should we automatically ban every effect that forces paralysis on a single failed save?

[Synesthesy]

However, I am not too sure, how to integrate the other PHB races or even if I should. A part of me wants to work in Elves/Half-Elves into the setting, but I'm not too sure how.

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Well any thoughts or ideas on/for this setting would be greatly appreciated. :smallsmile:

First, I like your setting. It's a nice idea. In greek / roman myths there are lots of obscure creatures ready to use.

For elves and other core races, you can do it in 3 ways IMHO:

1) add some myth taken from nordic traditions to your setting; maybe elves are living in a land far far away, as other legendary population that fills the ancient myths like amazons
2) name elves as their analogue in greek/roman myths: nymphs, driadi, satyrs, other things like that.
3) leave them be in another more tolkienesque setting. Your setting is good enough without taking everything in.

[Sorinth]

Sounds like a cool world. For player races there's not any need to exclude them, you should maybe modify the fluff a bit here and there, but really the only big change is rather then having their own pantheon they worship the same gods/monsters as everyone else.

For example, Wood Elf, Forest Gnome, even Halfling could simply be worshipers of Dionysus. It's easy to see them all at a drunken party thrown by Satyrs and Nymphs. Tieflings are tainted by the same mixed God/Titan blood as monsters but mechanically are the same. Dragonborn were created similarly to Orcs/Goblins, they just aren't as destructive and so are more accepted in certain settled lands.



In terms of campaign how much are you planning on having the big monsters actually rule the land. Are they in essence emperors or do they just wander the world doing what they want while causing widespread devastation wherever they go.

If these monsters are the new gods, are they actively engaged with their worshipers, do they meddle in human affairs like Greek gods did, or is it more of a cult where people worship them but the monster barely recognizes their existence? Furthermore how do Cleric's get spells, can the gods trapped in Tarterus still grant spells to their followers, do these new monster gods grant spells?

I would go with the trapped gods can no longer grant spells (Or at least only have enough power to help a select few), so although most regular folk still worship the gods, without magic clerics can't protect their followers anymore. So when cult fanatics worshiping the monsters come along and are able to cast spells regular folk are forced to convert or be killed/sacrificed. So the PCs have to choose between the old ways and the new.

Another idea would be to have Dionysus create the Feywild and abandon the normal world. He welcomes people fleeing the world to join his neverending party in the Feywild, but nobody is supposed to be allowed to leave. Basically this somewhat mirrors the Lotus Eaters. Maybe have Dionysus leaving being central to why the war with the Titans turned out how it did.

[JNAProductions]

It's also a one round duration, targets Con saves, and can be entirely prevented by using the rules to avert your gaze.

Let's put it this way. For my action + bonus action, against a boss with no Con save proficiency and a +3 modifier, I can force a 50% chance of paralysis for one round, if he doesn't avert his gaze from the obvious medusa. Let's say the Medusa is playing a Rogue here, hoping for enemies to avert their gaze for the free advantage. Is giving up their Sneak Attack + Cunning Action to force the saves really the best thing they could be doing in a boss fight?

As a Cleric considering a 3rd level Hold Person against the boss's Wis save of +3, I can force a 60% chance for ongoing paralysis against him, and a 60% chance for ongoing paralysis against his lieutenant, and use my bonus action to make a Spiritual Weapon attack with auto crit vs a paralyzed target.

In the final fight, when resource expenditure doesn't matter because it's time to nova, why is this ability worse than the existence of Hold Person? It's probably better than a cantrip, but by how much? As a racial ability, is it worse than at will flight from harpies?



Sure, and Pathfinder 2e did that if you want to see it in action. But in the system as it stands, should we automatically ban every effect that forces paralysis on a single failed save?

To the second bit-yeah, it'd be a systemic overhaul, or at least a magic overhaul. I think it'd make for a better game, but the game as-is now works.

To the first bit, that's assuming you're able to come into the final fight at full resources. Did you have to make any sacrifices earlier? What if that third-level slot would've been better used at an earlier fight, and because you didn't, you're walking into the boss fight at 30% HP? The medusa's cantrip is not as potent as Hold Person, but it takes no resources. That matters outside of white-room scenarios.

[Fable Wright]

To the first bit, that's assuming you're able to come into the final fight at full resources. Did you have to make any sacrifices earlier? What if that third-level slot would've been better used at an earlier fight, and because you didn't, you're walking into the boss fight at 30% HP? The medusa's cantrip is not as potent as Hold Person, but it takes no resources. That matters outside of white-room scenarios.

You complained, specifically, about this ability in boss fights. I posit that it's no worse than Hold Person in boss fights.

In a campaign like Critical Role, where characters have one or fewer encounters per day and I die on the inside every time they trivially burn upper level slots, you have players reasonably going into most fights with full resources. In this scenario, the power is probably not overpowered.

In a 6-8 per day slog, where each combat is averaging about three rounds, is this more powerful than the Enchanter Wizard's lockdown effect? On the one hand, it persists through damage and disables bonus action spells; on the other hand, lots of resaves against the effect, and low DC. In encounters with one big non-boss enemy, that thing will be shredded regardless of paralysis; in encounters with many, damage should usually be enough to take them out.

And if it IS an issue, any enemy can become immune at will by averting their gaze. And anything with a +3 con mod and proficiency at level 5 will save 70% of the time.

[werescythe]

Hello, everyone. First I would like to thank you all for your feedback. I especially like the idea of Elves being Nymphs. Great idea. :smallbiggrin:

I should apologize as I did leave some details out of the original thread (by accident), so I will try to fill them in and hopefully you will all continue to share with me your ideas.

So the setting (at least for my players) will take place 1 or 2 centuries after the Greek gods were banished and the monstrous pantheon took over. It should be noted that I have personally viewed most of the monsters in Greek mythology to either be misunderstood or victims of the gods and their followers. Because of this, the new Beast pantheon tends to lean more toward either a chaotic or neutral alignment (with a few outliers here and there). While some of these monstrous deities have taken up thrones similar to their predecessors, there is always the chance that they could go feral and because of this there are some feral beast gods that are worshiped by the occasional cult.

It should also be noted that of the original Greek pantheon the four head sibling gods (Zeus, Hades, Poseidon and Hera) perished during the war, with only a few of the weaker deities being around before they were banished. While there are some who still worship these gods, most of these function like cults and are generally treated as outlaws.

Due to their new found power the Beast Deities, are able to give their blessing to their followers allowing for Clerics and Paladins to serve them. Sorcerers are individuals whose powers come from genetic mutations caused either by monstrous ancestry, a blessing from one of the Beast Deities or by coming in contact with magical environments/items that provoke their sorcerous traits to come forth.

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Again, thank you all for your feedback. As always any further feedback/suggestions are welcome. :smallsmile:

[werescythe]

I am also working on some subclasses for this setting. As some of you already know, I have been working on a Medusa themed sorcerer origin but that are a few others I had in mind, which you can see below.

-College of Lanterns (Bards)
-College of Beast Charming (Bards)
-Love Domain (Cleric) <-- Granted, I'm not too sure if it is really needed, technically Life could be used for this too (unless I decide to go the whole charm/enchantment route).
-Monstrous Domain (Cleric)
-Circle of Purification (Druid) <-- As a result of the world's waters being contaminated by the blood of the gods and the titans.

I'm not too sure if I really want/need to add anything else. But who knows.

[werescythe]

So, apparently Mythic Odyssey of Thenos is going to be a thing. While I may use some stuff from this book for my setting, I will still be working on Diafell, along with the subclasses I have been working on.

Should I try posting my subclasses (or rather links to the gdocs where they are written down) and ask for all your thoughts on them?