So..whats wrong with coffee-locks again?

[kazaryu]

Ok, so i understand thebsynergy between a warlock and a sorcerer with the short rest spell slots. The the easy regen on sorcery points and all that.

But then people bring up the warlock's invocation that allows them to not need sleep.

And, outaide of being ready in case of a mid long-rest attack..i just cant figure out it alters the basic warlock/sorc synergy.

[Misterwhisper]

Ok, so i understand thebsynergy between a warlock and a sorcerer with the short rest spell slots. The the easy regen on sorcery points and all that.

But then people bring up the warlock's invocation that allows them to not need sleep.

And, outaide of being ready in case of a mid long-rest attack..i just cant figure out it alters the basic warlock/sorc synergy.

It is the access to essentially unlimited spell points and lower spell levels.

I have never seen it as a problem because common sense would say you can’t create spell levels you can’t cast.

Ex, if you are a level 7 sorcerer and level 2 warlock, you can’t spend spell points to make a level 5 spell slot, because you don’t have any.

Also along the same lines if your chart says you have 4 first level spells, that is how many you can have. You can refill with spell points if you want but you can’t make a 5th first level slot because you can’t hold that many.

Finally you have sorcery points of your spell level, ex 7 SP at level 7 sorcerer. You can’t make more than that at once because you can’t hold more.


Coffeelock is for power games who rely on the idea that “well it doesn’t say I can’t do X”

[kazaryu]

It is the access to essentially unlimited spell points and lower spell levels.

I have never seen it as a problem because common sense would say you can’t create spell levels you can’t cast.

Ex, if you are a level 7 sorcerer and level 2 warlock, you can’t spend spell points to make a level 5 spell slot, because you don’t have any.

Also along the same lines if your chart says you have 4 first level spells, that is how many you can have. You can refill with spell points if you want but you can’t make a 5th first level slot because you can’t hold that many.

Finally you have sorcery points of your spell level, ex 7 SP at level 7 sorcerer. You can’t make more than that at once because you can’t hold more.


Coffeelock is for power games who rely on the idea that “well it doesn’t say I can’t do X”

You and i are on the same page regarding how it should actually work.

And thats what i thought the 'problem' was initially, but then i realized that..inmean efficiency aside. Theres no reason a pure sorcerer can't do the same thing. And yet noone complains about pure sorcerers doing it...just sorlocks..

[RogueJK]

Theres no reason a pure sorcerer can't do the same thing. And yet noone complains about pure sorcerers doing it...just sorlocks..

Yes there is... Spent Sorcerer spell slots don't recharge until after a long rest. And Sorcerer Points and slots created by Sorcerer Points specifically disappear after a long rest.

So even if a Sorcerer had some magical method to no longer require sleep like a Warlock, they'd still quickly run out of spell slots to spend on points and have to take a long rest, at which point any extra slots or points they've accrued would reset as well.


Whereas the Sorlock with Aspect of the Moon invocation (aka "Coffeelock") never has to take Long Rests. So they can (theoretically) take unlimited Short Rests, recharging their Warlock spell slots to spend on more spell points and more Sorcerer spell slots indefinitely. And since they never Long Rest, they never trigger a reset of these Sorcerer spell points/slots like a straight Sorcerer, thus allowing them to accrue them infinitely. (In theory.)

[Rukelnikov]

IIRC you can indeed create higher lvl slots than you can cast, a simple lvl 7 Sorcerer can create lvl 5 slots.

The thing with the coffee lock is that you never take a long rest, and thus accumulate an arbitrarily high amount of spell slots.

[kazaryu]

IIRC you can indeed create higher lvl slots than you can cast, a simple lvl 7 Sorcerer can create lvl 5 slots.

The thing with the coffee lock is that you never take a long rest, and thus accumulate an arbitrarily high amount of spell slots.



Whereas the Sorlock with Aspect of the Moon invocation (aka "Coffeelock") never has to take Long Rests. So they can (theoretically) take unlimited Short Rests


Got it, its the semantics of the player never 'declares' a long rest. That makes more sense.

[Nagog]

You and i are on the same page regarding how it should actually work.

And thats what i thought the 'problem' was initially, but then i realized that..inmean efficiency aside. Theres no reason a pure sorcerer can't do the same thing. And yet noone complains about pure sorcerers doing it...just sorlocks..

The reason pure Sorc can't do it is if you go 24 hours without a long rest, typically you'd gain a point of exhaustion. With the Warlock Invocation, you don't need to sleep, ergo no exhaustion if you don't take more than a short rest when you need to.


Yes there is... Spent Sorcerer spell slots don't recharge until after a long rest. And Sorcerer Points and slots created by Sorcerer Points specifically disappear after a long rest.

So even if a Sorcerer had some magical method to no longer require sleep like a Warlock, they'd still quickly run out of spell slots to spend on points and have to take a long rest, at which point any extra slots or points they've accrued would reset as well.


Whereas the Sorlock with Aspect of the Moon invocation (aka "Coffeelock") never has to take Long Rests. So they can (theoretically) take unlimited Short Rests, recharging their Warlock spell slots to spend on more spell points and more Sorcerer spell slots indefinitely. And since they never Long Rest, they never trigger a reset of these Sorcerer spell points/slots like a straight Sorcerer, thus allowing them to accrue them infinitely. (In theory.)

I'm not entirely sure why you'd go Warlock for this tbh, as for that build you'd need at least 3 levels in Warlock to pick up the Pact of the Tome, which is a prerequisite for Aspect of the Moon, when (if your DM allows UA) you could pick up a single level of Ranger and nab Tireless, which allows you to reduce exhaustion on a short rest, as well as give yourself free temp HP as an action, gives you better armor than a Warlock would (unless Hexblade), and you gain access to Hunter's Mark without concentration. Granted you'd be missing the Warlock levels and their spells, but you'd be gaining 2 more levels of Sorcerer (and therefore Sorcery Points). You'd only need enough Wis to take it as a subclass, as the only pieces affected by Wis modifier are the # of temp HP (and uses) and the Hunter's Mark (which won't see much use due to it's reliance on "Weapon Attack")

[JNAProductions]

Because, at level 10 (earliest possible, even without making higher leveled slots) or more commonly level 12 (Sorc 1/Lock 3/Sorc+8) you can have unlimited, or close enough to that, 5th level slots.

If you have a month of downtime, you can make over 250 5th level slots, assuming you get 20 rests a day. But even with only five rests a day, you’re rocking more 5th level slots than anyone else has slots, period. Sure, they have a 6th level spell. But is ONE 6th level spell greater than dozens of 5th level slots?

[sithlordnergal]

The reason pure Sorc can't do it is if you go 24 hours without a long rest, typically you'd gain a point of exhaustion. With the Warlock Invocation, you don't need to sleep, ergo no exhaustion if you don't take more than a short rest when you need to.



I'm not entirely sure why you'd go Warlock for this tbh, as for that build you'd need at least 3 levels in Warlock to pick up the Pact of the Tome, which is a prerequisite for Aspect of the Moon, when (if your DM allows UA) you could pick up a single level of Ranger and nab Tireless, which allows you to reduce exhaustion on a short rest, as well as give yourself free temp HP as an action, gives you better armor than a Warlock would (unless Hexblade), and you gain access to Hunter's Mark without concentration. Granted you'd be missing the Warlock levels and their spells, but you'd be gaining 2 more levels of Sorcerer (and therefore Sorcery Points). You'd only need enough Wis to take it as a subclass, as the only pieces affected by Wis modifier are the # of temp HP (and uses) and the Hunter's Mark (which won't see much use due to it's reliance on "Weapon Attack")

Well, the point of the build doesn't rely on resting, its the fact that since Warlock spells come back on a short rest you could theoretically create unlimited spell slots. Basically, take 4 levels warlock to get two 2nd level spell slots every short rest. Turn those into Sorcery Points, then turn the Points into spell slots.

So during a long rest, a Coffelock could technically take 8 short rests, get 16 Sorcery Points, and turn those into spell slots. It could be 5 2nd level slots, 8 1st level slots, or even 2 5th level slots on top of your normal spell slots. And those slots won't go away till you spent them

[RogueJK]

I'm not entirely sure why you'd go Warlock for this tbh

you could pick up a single level of Ranger and nab Tireless, which allows you to reduce exhaustion on a short rest

Simple: Warlocks get short rest spell slot refresh.

Even if a Tireless Ranger/Sorcerer never has to Long Rest to stave off exhaustion, he still has to Long Rest to refresh his spent spell slots, at which point he loses any accrued Spell Points/Created Slots.

Whereas a Warlock can do that with a short rest, without ever triggering a reset of the Sorcerer Spell Point/Created Slots.