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kpenguin
2007-10-22, 02:25 AM
Taking a break from the sci-fi versus threads, what would happen if two of the most powerful nations in Khovaire waged war against each other? Assume they have current resources, no outside power is interfering, and that, as always, the Dragonmarked houses are neutral.

Zincorium
2007-10-22, 02:42 AM
To me, it seems Karrnath would have a distinct edge. Their population can gear up much more quickly to fight, and are better suited to the deprivations that normally occur.

Many of the undead legions are still fully battle ready, and more can be created even if karrnath loses a particular battle. As well, Kaius is a lot harder to assasinate.

However, Breland does have a larger population, and that probably carries with it a proportional increase in adventurer-types.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-22, 08:25 AM
I'd take the other position based on ECS demographics and Breland having more people and a larger tax base.

Breland has a population of 3.7 million versus 2.5 million for Karrnath which tranlates to more people and more resources to throw into a war.

Karrnath gets to roll 1D8 for fighters vice 1D6 for Breland:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a

Karrnath would have poor results trying to take their undead troops through Thrane or the Mournlands IMO.

Most ECS armies are comprised of NPC warriors led by NPC warriors. That 150% population factor in Brealnd negates the fighter edge IMO.

Fighters are specialist troops both sides should have them and Breland should be able to match them at the minimum.

Page 57 of the Five Nations With the fall of Cyre, some say that Breland could have won the Last War: certainly it had the edge in population, resources, and strategic alliances.............

IMO it was left that way purposely with 5 nations. It just seems like 5 kingdoms with different goals and drives are more fun to play and adventure in than one single great kingdom with dissidents. Kind of like 4E and the Points of Light. Most villages are isolated. Most domains have trouble enforcing their rule 10 - 20 miles from their power base. The Aundair, Breland, Cormyr and Waterdeep type settings are rare and unusual.

Wolfwood2
2007-10-22, 10:56 AM
As I recall, the general consensus was that Breland had the advantage at the end of the Last War. That was one of the reasons Boranel was so influential in pushing through the peace treaty. He was in a position to win, but desired peace anyway.

Breland has both the population advantage already listed and Sharn, the greatest industrial center in the known world. Its advantage is much like that of the US in WWII. Karrnath may have many brave warriors and great generals, but Breland can simply make more weapons, equip more soldiers, and sent out more magewrights with eternal wands than Karrnath can.

pantoffelheld
2007-10-22, 11:28 AM
Breland has King Boranel. King Boranel wins.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-10-22, 11:31 AM
There's also the issue that, no matter what route is taken, an overland invasion of either involves passing through probably-hostile territory (Thrane, the Mournlands, or Darguun/Valenar/Talenta). Karrnath might be able to send their undead through the Mournland, and Breland could probably bribe their way through the southern nations without fighting, but it'd be costly either way. Thus, any full-scale invasion would need to be by sea. And I wish I could make a point with that, but I don't know enough about the nations' respective navies, and countless hours of strategy games have proven that I just don't handle naval combat very well in my brain ('swhy I always play Pangaea in Civ).

Zincorium
2007-10-22, 04:29 PM
Karrnath would have poor results trying to take their undead troops through Thrane or the Mournlands IMO.

Emphasis mine.

Undead troops are about the only ones you can march through the mournlands.

Heck, with a decent necromancer, you might even be able to steal some of the native undead and add them to your ranks.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-10-22, 05:20 PM
Too bad the Mournlands borders would also be where all of the anti-undead types would be situated.

"How lovely, they're bringing them to us."

Doresain
2007-10-22, 08:43 PM
in short, this battle would be comparable to the civil war, Breland representing the north and Karrnath the south...it would be a long drawn out battle, but eventually Breland would win...of course, for every living Brelish/Karrnathi troop that falls, Karrnath gains a new soldier...so its more of a toss up IMO

Mike_Lemmer
2007-10-22, 08:47 PM
Of course, for every living Brelish/Karrnathi troop that falls, Karrnath gains a new soldier...so its more of a toss up IMO

Only if the necromancers get to him in time, unless Karrnath has some auto-undead raiser I don't know about.

Thrivol
2007-10-22, 08:57 PM
Breland has King Boranel. King Boranel wins.King Boranel once fought a couple of Pun-puns and won. By a couple, I mean roughly 6.7*10 to the 5000321 power.

King Boranel regularly projects himself into different universes. He goes by the names of Chuck Norris, Mr. Rogers, Saurfang, Pun-pun, and Picard.

Yes, King Boranel defeated 6.7*10 to the 5000321 power copies of himself.

StickMan
2007-10-22, 08:57 PM
I'd have to go with there is no way that would not restart the war. In the end everyone losses.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-23, 02:21 AM
Emphasis mine.

Undead troops are about the only ones you can march through the mournlands.

Heck, with a decent necromancer, you might even be able to steal some of the native undead and add them to your ranks.

According to the Five Nations page 100 resorting to the use of undead soldiers was a desparate decision to save Karrnath from utter ruin. The undead are not integrated into the Karrnath army and rarely perform in joint operations. Today the legions remain hidden both from the citizens and eyes of other nations. A relative few patrol the borders and serve as special guards.

The average Karrn find the intelligent undead to be at best creepy and at worst completely terrifying.

I would imaging leaders of opposing military forces motivate their men by telling them to destroy the undead so they and their fellow citizens won't be made into undead monsters by the evil Karrnath invaders.

Adventurers and other travellers don't get a free pass travelling through the Mournlands so it would depend on your game if an Undead Army would receive one. An army would be an appropiate encounter for the likes of Haze of Death http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20071008a&page=3 much less other hazards like the Warforged who might take exception to the invaders as per orders from the Lord of Blades.

Source books cite the Mournlands are easy to get lost in.

House Orien still hasn't fixed the Lightning Rail through the Mournlands so there are serious unspecified problems there since Dragonmarked makes a big point regarding what a Cash Cow the Lightning Rail is for House Orien.

IMO it would be a lot easier to just stick the undead in ships and sail them half way around the continent which would take time and entail some hazards to the ships from the weather and monsters. Since intelligent undead troops don't need to eat, drink, sleep and can be packed more tightly than living troops since they do not have basic needs of living troops.

This would require ships to transport them and isn't foolproof. Significant numbers of ships acting strangely sailing (Only at night for example would be more dangerous than sailing during the day), not taking on cargo anywhere, unusual colors flying Karrnath for example out of their normal territorial waters or unknown captains flying other colors) would be observed over time, enough would be commented on to cause rumors some of which would be investigated so it would be tough to completely surprise Breland, the Lhazarr Principalities, the Gnomes, or the spy Houses of Phiarlan and Thuranni. House Lyrandrar has all those flying ships about randomly.

Another major weakness of marching an undead army through the Mournlands are the points of control for the undead army.

Cost and method of making all these undead troops from "Elite" Karrnath troops slain in battle NOT VOLUNTEERS or ENEMY SOLDIERS page 292 ECS. It doesn't say what the size of a Division is just that divisions could be mobilized. Herroes of Battle doesn't use Divisions to describe military organization sizes on pages 15 - 16. In the Five Nations page 102 the Royal Corpse Collecters look for "Suitable" bodies which I infer to mean not all bodies are suitable for the undead soldier program. First the soldiers need to die reducing army strength. Then the dead bodies are inspected to see if they are suitable. Some of the dead bodies are turned into undead soldiers. Maybe a requirement is a level 2+ warrior and according to ECS demographics most warriors are level 1.

Maybe the undead become free willed over time like other undead who lose their controllers since they are intelligent like the Warforged or are created free willed which is why you use loyalist troops and not other army soldiers. A finite amount of contollers creates a limiting undead army mechanic.

Maybe Karrnath doesn't want to take the chance of a undead soldier from another country becoming a free willed undead with a real personal grudge to grind against Karrnath (Potentially dangerous guerillas). Even the most fervent patriot might become a little disgruntled after experiencing the undead afterlife.

In game most NPCs are generally prejudiced against free willed Warforged to various degrees. Imagine how they would feel against free willed undead walking around. More would feel like natives of Thrane regarding these abominations.

If making undead troops is the Trump card to win a war why didn't Karrnath win the Last War? Undead troops could be the equivalent of the V rocket for the Nazis. Looks great on paper but doesn't do the job in the real world.

A good point to remember is that despite all the Warforged that were created during the Last War by the 5 Nations according to ECS demographics they do not rate a 1% or better demographic anywhere except the Mournlands where they comprise 98% of the estimated 1,000 populace. Aundair has 2% Changelings. The Demon Wastes has 2% Half Orcs.

The ECS has demographic limits on class levels established by Wizard's as per my first post which limits supply creation by casters.

Lastly don't forget that the Karrnath border is presently experiencing guerilla style border attacks and skirkmishes from the Talenta Plains.