Bladesinger, but as a Druid?

[jaappleton]

Full Disclosure: I asked this question almost two years ago. However, since then, numerous new subclasses have appeared. Considering new official subclasses gives us all a better idea for the terms of balance, I thought it wise to ask once more.

Both Druids and Clerics get their subclass features at levels 2, 6, 10 and 14. So for subclass features, it’s a direct swap.

It’s no secret the Wizard list is quite strong.

Druid, however, has access to a bit of healing, but considerably falls behind in the blasting department of spell choice.

So basically, take the Bladesinger subclass. Swap any instance of Intelligence to Wisdom. Put it on the Druid. They burn a use of Wild Shape to activate ‘Bladesong’.

When I asked previously, a balance concern was “Well, not you’re pretty SAD if you utilize Shillelagh, which might not be balanced.” But now we have Battle Smith Artificers, Hexblades, etc.

There’s quite a precedent for that stuff at this point.

So.... Should be OK? Terrible idea?

EDIT: FWIW, I'd be single classing this. Don't want to get into the can of worms of 'Well, a Monk could certain dip into this-'. Nope. Single class, both to avoid that, and because I personally would never slow down spell progression toward my favorite spell in all of 5E: Sunbeam. So, when commenting, please accommodate for that thought process.

[nickl_2000]

I would be willing to give it a try, especially in a power game like you generally play. As a single class Druid, I think it would make perfect sense and I don't think it would be an issue and would allow it (as a DM) on a trial basis given that I had the right to "retire" the character if it wasn't working out.



The challenge I would see would be in Druid becoming a Dip class for Rangers, Clerics, or especially monks. You are taking a feature that is an exploration or scouting feature in a dip (CR 1 critters aren't enough to be good in combat for a dip) and turning it into a very powerful combat ability. So, here is where I would tread more carefully. A monk who is getting +Wisdom to the AC an extra time would give them a ridiculous AC and make them neigh unstoppable.

[jaappleton]

I would be willing to give it a try, especially in a power game like you generally play. As a single class Druid, I think it would make perfect sense and I don't think it would be an issue and would allow it (as a DM) on a trial basis given that I had the right to "retire" the character if it wasn't working out.



The challenge I would see would be in Druid becoming a Dip class for Rangers, Clerics, or especially monks. You are taking a feature that is an exploration or scouting feature in a dip (CR 1 critters aren't enough to be good in combat for a dip) and turning it into a very powerful combat ability. So, here is where I would tread more carefully. A monk who is getting +Wisdom to the AC an extra time would give them a ridiculous AC and make them neigh unstoppable.

Agreed. I've amended the first post to reflect that fact that I'd absolutely be single classing in this instance.
(It's taken me well over an hour to post this. The forum is, as I'm sure we're all aware, not very cooperative lately. But that's an entirely different topic.)

[RogueJK]

When I asked previously, a balance concern was “Well, not you’re pretty SAD if you utilize Shillelagh, which might not be balanced.” But now we have Battle Smith Artificers, Hexblades, etc.

Not to mention that Bladesingers can already do straight INT-based melee already, relying on a cantrip like Shocking Grasp. You'll be a few points behind a traditional Shillelagh Druid at Levels 1-4 (1d8 vs. 1d8+3/4), roughly equal at Levels 5-10 (2d8 vs. 1d8+4/5), but ahead at levels higher than 10 (3d8 or 4d8 vs. 1d8+5).

Yeah, it's not as optimal as a Bladesinger using a Finesse weapon, especially once stuff like Extra Attack and Shadow Blade come around, but it's doable.


So I don't see a Shillelagh Druid Bladesinger being noticeably unbalanced. You’ll potentially be a few points ahead in comparative melee damage at middle levels, but not excessively so. And you'll want a good DEX anyway since you're limited to Light Armor, so it's not like you can dump DEX altogether, or dump DEX and STR like a Hill Dwarf Heavy Armor Shillelagh Nature Cleric or similar. Besides, Shillelagh requires your bonus action to activate, which competes with other Bonus Actions like engaging Bladesong.

[Warlush]

I think you should absolutely give it a try. I'd love to know how well it works out. I've always thought it would be fun to have a warrior type druid that didn't have to turn into a bear first.

[ThePolarBear]

So.... Should be OK? Terrible idea?

For me it would de-druidize the druid while not reaching the same level as a normal Bladesinger (which, honestly, might not be bad).

The biggest problem is that linking "Bladesong" to Wild Shape would mean lose that one feature a Druid pretty much cultivates and defines it as a class in regards to progression, while Bladesong doesn't affect how a Wizard is a Wizard at all class-wise, complementing it instead by giving new ways to approach problems.

Yes, Druids get spells. While having a different selection of spells which includes healing ones it is still not a "spellcasting class" as much as the Wizard is as a baseline. No spell recovery, defensive and offensive variety and so on. Bladesinger builds upon those to make a Wizard that can fight. On a Druid it would make a character that has to choose if being a Druid or a fighter with spells.

As a Druid you would have a better Hit Die. You would still need Dex for survivability (and likely to attack, as the conflict in action has been already pointed out would eat 1 full round and a bonus action to have "the package come online". You would arguably need MORE Con (and more importantly Con save proficiency) than a Wizard due to spell list (I find Druid are more Concentration based, but it might be a "me" thing) lacking defensive and repositioning choices. Wis is a better stat than INT, so saves would be "arguably" better as is access to some skills that are considered "important" (ex. Perception).

Ritual Casting would similarly be not in a Druid favour - both in access and in variety.

But really... the Druid gets more "Druid" by getting more and varied and stronger Wild Shape - even those that are not Moon Druids. That's where the versatility of the class itself is. Taking a bit more time to "Druidize" Bladesong a bit would work wonders, i think, even if just the feel of the Wildshape is maintained. Heck, i can imagine a Totem Barbarian as a "Druid Bladesinger" more than what would come out from slapping the sub-class to the class. It would feel less disjointed even without spells!

Would it work? Yes, i guess. It would certainly be workable (and even "fun", if that is what you are looking for, while not being as easy to "exploit" as a Bladesinger. TBH, it's all an off-the-top-of-my-head consideration. I don't really remember the Druid spell list that well.). It just doesn't resonate with me because i think class and sub-class would not resonate between themselves.

[MrStabby]

So I think I remember you asking this about the cleric before... and I was worried about spirit guardians. No such concern here.

I have done something very similar before - although that was turning the ranger into a druid subclass for a game. I think you should be fine.

A few of the benefits:
Druids are just a bit tougher, therefore benefit just slightly more from being in combat.
Wisdom is probably, on average, in most campaigns, a slightly better stat than Intelligence; avoiding surprise is particularly important to get bladesong up
Druid spell list has all the best spells being concentration; taking the attack action is actually a meaningful step up one you are concentrating on something. If you are a wizard-singer you can still fireball.
Spells like fairy fire and hold person scale with the number of attacks the party makes.
Bonus action stuff like healing word is neat when you are less restricted as you have other good actions than cantrips;on the other hand crown of stars is good as well though.

And the downsides:
No good protective spells: no mage armour, no shield and class features that don't let you use your medium armour. Barkskin doesn't really count. The need for high dex means no real benefit from shillelagh.
Druid spell list, whilst having some real gems, is slightly less powerful than the wizard.
You are trading wildshape for this - essentially you are choosing not to get the resources of the subclass. Now if you could add together both wildshape and bladesong then yeah, it might be a bit better.



Now my guess as to what might be both better and more fun would be Sorcerer with bladesinger subclass and the druid spell list. The small spell selection is less annoying when you have more turns using weapons. Quickened spell is more fun when it lets you attack as your action.

[nickl_2000]

So I think I remember you asking this about the cleric before... and I was worried about spirit guardians. No such concern here.

I have done something very similar before - although that was turning the ranger into a druid subclass for a game. I think you should be fine.

A few of the benefits:
Druids are just a bit tougher, therefore benefit just slightly more from being in combat.
Wisdom is probably, on average, in most campaigns, a slightly better stat than Intelligence; avoiding surprise is particularly important to get bladesong up
Druid spell list has all the best spells being concentration; taking the attack action is actually a meaningful step up one you are concentrating on something. If you are a wizard-singer you can still fireball.
Spells like fairy fire and hold person scale with the number of attacks the party makes.
Bonus action stuff like healing word is neat when you are less restricted as you have other good actions than cantrips;on the other hand crown of stars is good as well though.

And the downsides:
No good protective spells: no mage armour, no shield and class features that don't let you use your medium armour. Barkskin doesn't really count. The need for high dex means no real benefit from shillelagh.
Druid spell list, whilst having some real gems, is slightly less powerful than the wizard.
You are trading wildshape for this - essentially you are choosing not to get the resources of the subclass. Now if you could add together both wildshape and bladesong then yeah, it might be a bit better.



Now my guess as to what might be both better and more fun would be Sorcerer with bladesinger subclass and the druid spell list. The small spell selection is less annoying when you have more turns using weapons. Quickened spell is more fun when it lets you attack as your action.


I don't think making this run off wildshape is really that bad of a thing personally. There is official precedence in the Circle of Spores to give subclass features based on using Wildshape, and given that you get wildshape back at a short rest I don't see it as to much of a problem.



As I said above, I would want to see how it works, but I'm not sure this is the real solution to the true problem. If I were running the table, I would rather come up with a 2 attack melee druid subclass myself and give that a shot instead (which I have done, and I know several other homebrewers on here have done as well).

[Spiritchaser]

My concern with a druid bladesinger isn’t with melee

It’s with concentration, bladesong and summoning

A druid Bladesinger could have a very tough to crack concentration.

Normally a summoner druid can be managed with a sufficiently hard smack in the face. A druid blade singer will dance around that smack, or grin and bear it (at least at higher levels)

I’m not sure this is broken, but it could definitely be tough for many foes to handle.

[RogueJK]

I don't think making this run off wildshape is really that bad of a thing personally. There is official precedence in the Circle of Spores to give subclass features based on using Wildshape

And unofficial precedence with the UA Circle of Wildfire.

[Theodoxus]

Couple things. 1st, I agree that using Wild Shape to fuel bladesinging is a good idea on the base of it, but I’d also want to increase the benefits as WS gets better (instead of gaining a swim speed at 4th, maybe your bladesinging grants barkskin while active. Instead of a fly speed at 8th level, you might get earth glide or a 30’ tree stride type ability). Increasing CR instead grants THP when you start the bladesong?

2nd, I’d grant the bladesinging archetype the natural recovery from Land. Wizards get it as a base ability, and it’s definitely something a primary caster would want. Since you also get the weaker WS anyway, it’s not unprecedented.