Question - Change Self

[schreier]

I am playing in a campaign where I get to play an irda - a dragonlance race of "high ogres" that are good. The Dragonlance campaign book is 1st party from my understanding, but the supplemental books are not, but the DM is letting me use the irda from the Races of Ansalon supplement.

In that version, they have an ability called "Change Shape," and a supporting Feat called "Changer Adept."

The Change Shape ability obviously is related to the SRD Change Shape ability - located at:
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Change_Shape

Basically, you keep your type/subtype, gain size, natural weapons, movement, and extraordinary special attacks.

This is similar but not identical to Alter self - from my understanding, it is different in that you do not get natural armor, racial skill bonuses or bonus feats.

The irda default change shape allows humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or giant. Changer adept adds animal, magical beast, ooze, and plant to the possible types.

I am trying to figure out how these rules would apply to different forms. With the base, it is generally pretty straight forward, but with the additions from the feat it gets a little confusing.

Some of the forms I am looking at confuse me. For example -

If I take an ooze - you do not get the ooze traits. https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Ooze_Type

So - no blindness? If I were to take the assassin jelly form (
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040916a) -- I think I would get the shape, the ability to change "forms" from a thin puddle to a long rope, the Constitution damage, improved grab and paralysis.
Even though they seem directly related to appearance, I do not think I would get the hide bonus or camouflage.

If I take the form of the small viper: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Small_Viper - I think I would get the poison, with save DC = 10 + 1/2 HD (level?) + Con Bonus?

If I take the form of a manticore: https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/manticore.htm
I think I would get the ability to throw the spines? If so - how would the 24 hour limit (24 spikes in 24 hours) apply? Could I just change shape in and out to "regrow" the spikes?

If I take Cave Troll (MM3) - I would get Dazing Blow, Improved Grab, Pounce, Rake and Rend? Similarly, Flying Snake (Races of Faerun) would give me Acid Spit?

Thanks!
schreier

[Darg]

With the ooze, anything past the SA in the stat block but before the SQ that is shown with a (ex) below is an extraordinary attack. Even though the form has no physical way to see, you retain your type and subtype which let's you magically see regardless of having visible eyes or not.

You have the right idea. As for the spikes, technically you could shift back into the shape that doesn't have any spikes, but I dont think that is the best option. You are better off changing into a different manticore with full spikes.

[schreier]

Here are the forms I cataloged as "useful" - wanted to see if there were other recommendations, and if any of these were stupid. It wasn't clear from the rule, but we are thinking that the form can be of any weight within the normal range, otherwise things wouldn't make much sense. (a 160 lb eagle wouldn't fly, and a 160 fire giant would be blown over). Keeping the physical attributes makes this a little strange, but it made more sense to us .... let me know if this is definitively decided anywhere.

The forms:
Albatross

Albatross - a flight option when the eagle might be too obvious
Asabi, Stingtail - large for combat, has poison tail (not 100% sure how it works here), has burrow and good move, can still spellcast
Assassin Jelly - flexible to slide under doors, etc. Good for hiding as a puddle, and can suck people dry
Assassin Vine- Good grapple, good sitting inconspiculously
Avariel (Elf) - flying, good for making an impression
Brown Bear - some combat, some blending in as a natural animal, some intimidation
Catfolk - good move, interesting appearance could be useful
Centaur - good move and size, can still spellcast
Dinosaur, fleshraker - combat option, especially with poison
Dire Wolf -has trip, candidate for polymorph self as well with scent and good physical attributes, good move and size
Dragonkin - large flying with some natural attack
Dwarf, Gold - just a humanoid disguise
Eagle - good flying speed, disguise
Elf, Aquatic - good swimming speed, disguise
Elf, Drow - disguise
Elf, Moon - disguise
Gargoyle, Kir-lanan - great fly speed and maneuverability, natural attack
Giant, Fire - throw rocks, intimidate, interesting
Giant, Frost - see above
Giant, Stone - see above
Gnome, Whisper - disguise, small still moves 30
Half-Elf - disguise
Horse, Light Warhorse (Raurin) - great speed, disguise, can help party
Human (Illuskan) - disguise
Kamadan - looks of attacks with poison, solid move
Lammasu - can talk and fly, can be useful to appear as lammasu
Leskylor - 3 headed good flying tiger - similar to lammasu but less common, better in combat
Lynx - hiding and moving as a "small" cat
Manticore - can talk, useful for ranged attacks
Mephling, Air - perfect fly, small
Mephling, Earth - might be useful as disguise
Mephling, Water - good swim, might be useful as disguise
Minotaur (Krynn) - from Krynn, has gore attack, could be intimidating and interesting
Monkey (Small) - good maneuverability/movement, can hide in towns or jungles
Orc, Gray - disguise
Pegasus - great fly speed, can help team
Porpoise - great swim speed
Raven (Small) - another inconspicuous flying option (from Tome and Blood familiars)
Riding Dog - good to fit in, similar to dire wolf as needed with trip
Snake - Flying - pretty cool and unique, fits thematically as rainbow servant (playing text over table) - spits acid
Snake - Viper, Small - good to get around climbing and swimming and into small arrows, with poison,
Starsnake - really cool looking, fits thematically with rainbow servant
Tiger - good combat form, less rare than lyskor, similar to bear in purpose
Troll, Cave - solid combat form, good candidate for polymorph, intimidate
Ursoi - bearman from krynn, similar to minotaur
Varag - super fast hobgoblin, good to fit in with goblinoids, can move as fast as a fast horse
Watchspider - has web, climb, poison
Wolverine - burrow and combat form
Yuan-Ti, Abomination - spellcasting, poison, grapple, etc...


Races I was considering but haven't put them in yet:
Kobold (potentially with the traits in the Races of the Dragon web supplement), Ogre, Halfling, Goblin, Gnoll, Hill Giant .... but so far, haven't included them

It is a large list, not sure I would use them all, but I could see cases for them .... any recommendations on forms missed that are cool/useful? Anything you think I shouldn't take? Some are very rare (lyskor), so it will take in game time to find them.

For poison - for the DC, it says racial HD go into the calculation. For this ability, would that be your level or 0? I assume you use your Con modifier in the calculation.

[TristanS]

That is quite an extensive list of forms ... can't imagine actually being able to use them all in game, but I applaud the effort.

I do think it would be worth having the goblin, gnoll, ogre, and halfling represented just to blend in with different groups.

I imagine language would be an issue, so you should probably pick up the tongues spell if you don't have it.

As far as poison - it is pretty explicit when is says racial HD, but I believe there are cases where that is inconsistently applied. I do not see a problem using level as the HD for poison calculation ... it would keep some of the forms useful well into late game (fleshraker with all those attacks and high save DC, viper, that kamadan cat)

The kamadan is really cool ... we just played a Dungeon magazine adventure where we ran into them. I would imagine that you would not benefit from the language on the snakebite. I was fascinated -- "Each of a kamadan's six snake heads possesses a separate brain. This allows the kamadan to make attacks with its snake bites as a free action."

I would personally rule you can attack with the snake heads like any other natural weapon, but not as a free attack.

[Jay R]

That is quite an extensive list of forms ... can't imagine actually being able to use them all in game, but I applaud the effort.

The purpose of a large list is not to use all the forms, but to be ready to use the one specific form that is best for that moment.


I would personally rule you can attack with the snake heads like any other natural weapon, but not as a free attack.

I would agree, but further, you bring up the crucial fact: this will require a personal DM ruling.

The DM is allowing schreier to bring something in from a different game system. There are obviously no rules for it, so it will take DM rulings to be able to play.

There are too many unknowns for us to have competent opinions. Does the DM like the idea and want to give it maximum scope? Is he nervous about it and therefore limiting it? Has he already worked up a good rival for that PC? Is he making plans for NPCs of that race? These things will affect any ruling the DM gives, and we don't know the situation.

My recommendation is to take these questions to the DM. Since it isn't from a rulebook, we can't even help with looking up the rules.

[schreier]

Thank you both!

It is "3rd party" - in that the feat itself is 3rd party, but the Change Shape power is described in the SRD, so greatly appreciate any feedback on how it would be applied. I appreciate both the applause and agree with Jay's comment - I am just trying to be prepared to avoid the dreaded "hold up while I look up the stats" mid-game.

I actually agree with that thought on the kamadan. I do not see any way I would be growing separate brains, so would just treat them like regular appendages.

That does bring up the Hydra - which is outside the scope of this feat (Huge). I do have polymorph, and use it with some forms (Dire Wolf for track and scent, Cave troll as a combat form with large stats) .. I have also seen many people recommend Hydra. We're at lvl 11 right now, which would allow polymorphing into an 11-headed hydra.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm

Polymorph changes type and subtype, gains Str, Dex and Con of the new form, and gains extraordinary special attacks.

Under combat it says "Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round." -- I am not sure if this is brain related or not. Do you get this with polymorph? Either way, it probably makes sense to apply the same ruling.

In the polymorph thread on Wizards, it said you get physical qualities, including natural armor, natural weapons, racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities .. not sure if that helps at all, but just mentioning it


EDIT: I just was rereading the Wizards polymorph thread - and I started questioning myself. Am I reading the Change Shape ability too restrictively? Should it basically be read like Alter Self other than stated differences (in this case, ability to take other forms for example). There is no HD limit listed in the Change Shape ... should there be? Would it make sense to implement a "HD less than or equal to your own" like polymoprh/alter self? Should I get natural armor, skill bonuses, bonus feats, etc ?

Here is the "alter self" page from Wizards on the wayback machine : https://web.archive.org/web/20161031215223/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a

[Jay R]

It is "3rd party" - in that the feat itself is 3rd party, but the Change Shape power is described in the SRD, so greatly appreciate any feedback on how it would be applied. I appreciate both the applause and agree with Jay's comment - I am just trying to be prepared to avoid the dreaded "hold up while I look up the stats" mid-game.

Agreed. Ask the DM now, not during play. Then he can look things up, consider options, etc., and not feel pressured to hurry.


EDIT: I just was rereading the Wizards polymorph thread - and I started questioning myself. Am I reading the Change Shape ability too restrictively? Should it basically be read like Alter Self other than stated differences (in this case, ability to take other forms for example). There is no HD limit listed in the Change Shape ... should there be? Would it make sense to implement a "HD less than or equal to your own" like polymoprh/alter self? Should I get natural armor, skill bonuses, bonus feats, etc ?

Great questions. Don't save them for the game; ask the DM now. He enjoys thinking about D&D just as much as we do, and has more special knowledge about that world and campaign.