Blood Hunter fans: The Class has Changed

[jaappleton]

For legal reasons, I can’t really copy and paste the whole thing.

But the class has been rewritten. It’ll be on D&D Beyond in due time. You can get it now by paying a little money on DMsGuild, and the money goes toward Australia fire relief.

I’ll relay some highlights:

1. Intelligence based, not Wisdom

2. For the extra damage, which started as a d4 and scales up, you used to lose HP equal to your level to activate it. Now you roll the die.

3. Prior, if you had a two-sided weapon like a Glaive, you had to use the ability twice if you have PAM. Once per each side of the item you could hit enemies with. No longer.

4. Saving Throws are Dex + Int.

5. Subclass features at levels 3, 6, 11, 14, and 18

I know I personally may have something of a bit of an.... optimizing reputation here, for those familiar with myself. But believe it or not?

It’s more balanced as a class now. I’m personally not incredibly thrilled with the change from Wisdom to Intelligence, I think Wisdom made more sense.

But the class functions much better, trades a bit of damage in exchange for being much less of a glass cannon.

Ghost slayer is much more down to earth, Profane Soul is mostly untouched. Lycan is less polarizing, and.... nobody ever played Mutagen anyway >_>

[bendking]

If those are the highlights, it doesn't seem to be changed that much.
Do you feel that it's no longer underpowered?

[OgataiKhan]

nobody ever played Mutagen anyway >_>

Heh, for me Mutant was the only subclass that made Blood Hunters worth playing.

You could be a flying, regenerating crossbowman thanks to Aether and Reconstruction.

Now they've both been limited to one hour durations rather than at will, and Reconstruction only works up to half health, which killed my interest for the class entirely.

Is there anything else left that Blood Hunters can do better than any other class?

[Dork_Forge]

Just picked this up and gave it a skim, I mostly like the changes though there's some interesting things:

A transformed Lycan seems better at unarmed strikes than an actual Monk.

Lycan also opens up some interesting AC shenanigans: A Warforged can wear Half Plate and carry a shield, mix in Defense from somewhere and magical gear and combat AC starts to really climb without need for spells.

I'm not sure if the Mutagen one had an Int boost before, but the only downside to that is disadvantage on Cha saves (which you can ignore in Tier 2 anyway for limited time), this has interesting implications for any abilities working off int (Blade Song, Tactical Wit, Battle Ready etc.).

The Blood Hunter just became a pretty good multiclass option for a Battle Smith: you get extra weapon damage, can bump your Int beyond +5 and get access to a fighting style. A shield and hxb (Repeating Shot) Battle Smith/Blood Hunter seems like a pretty strong option at first glance.

[Aett_Thorn]

Hmmm...I’ll have to check it out once it comes to DNDBeyond, but based on these highlights, I’m torn. The switch from Wis to Int makes sense in one sense (being that most of the knowledge skills are based on Int, and are thematic for a Bloodhunter), by Wisdom I feel like made more sense, since much of what you’re hunting usually forces Wis saves and I feel like the multiclassing is now weird thematically. I just felt like a Bloodhunter made a better multiclass with Ranger, Druid, or Cleric than Wizard or Artificer.

Also, the limit for double-sided weapons and Rites was done, I felt like, to make PAM not an automatic feat choice for the class. Now it seems like an automatic choice for anyone but a Lycan. Unless they made a similar change for dual-wielding, it’s a Dex-based class that is much better off going with a Str-based build. Again, not horribly problematic, just odd.

Looking forward to seeing what the overall results are in feel, though.

[Neoh]

I was a bit hyped seeing it was being reworked but in the end, it's still about the same.

I really don't like how the class has subclasses that don't really make sense like they don't fit in a single class.

Werewolf, Witcher style Mutant, Warlock type thing, and a sort of Cleric, each subclass feels like a class on its own.

[Veldrenor]

I was a bit hyped seeing it was being reworked but in the end, it's still about the same.

I really don't like how the class has subclasses that don't really make sense like they don't fit in a single class.

Werewolf, Witcher style Mutant, Warlock type thing, and a sort of Cleric, each subclass feels like a class on its own.

From the bloodhunter's class description:

"Some, however, are so fanatical and bent on destroying the anathema that plagues the countryside that they embrace dark, forbidden knowledge. They sacrifice some of their own vital force in dubious, forgotten blood rituals to better understand their enemies. Their methods sometimes blur the line between themselves and the evils they hunt, calling their own humanity into question."

Further along in the fluff there are sections titled "Become the Enemy to Understand the Enemy" and "Almost as Feared as Their Prey." There's more such language throughout the class, but the idea is that bloodhunters fight evil by drawing power from and taking on aspects of the things they hunt. Lycans are werewolves, Ghostslayers are ghosts, Profane Souls are warlocks, and Mutants are mad scientist alchemical monstrosities. They don't fit every campaign, but if you're running a game in Barovia, Innistrad, or a similar gothic horror setting, they're perfect.

[Dork_Forge]

Since the forums went down I had time to look over the class more in depth (and made a build based on it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPDfRF5OUfA&)), I like the changes, it's refreshing to have more value to Int and it makes more sense for gaining power to hunt through rituals and forbidden knowledge. The change to the Crimson Rite is also very nice, you don't really have to worry about the damage you take anymore which makes PAM builds more viable and TWF more tempting. It feels a lot more cleaned up and polished than the previous version and the new art is pretty cool.

[jaappleton]

Since the forums went down I had time to look over the class more in depth (and made a build based on it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPDfRF5OUfA&)), I like the changes, it's refreshing to have more value to Int and it makes more sense for gaining power to hunt through rituals and forbidden knowledge. The change to the Crimson Rite is also very nice, you don't really have to worry about the damage you take anymore which makes PAM builds more viable and TWF more tempting. It feels a lot more cleaned up and polished than the previous version and the new art is pretty cool.

I'm really on the fence between Intelligence and Wisdom for this class.

I get the forbidden knowledge, keying off Int. That makes sense.

But tracking your prey, hunting them, stalking them in a sort of Witcher style, that screams Wisdom to me.

I also argue that for MC purposes, Wisdom makes a ton more sense. I can see tons of Blood Hunters that're also part Cleric, or Ranger, or Druid. I don't see many, lore-wise, that're also Wizards or Artificers.

......but BH / Bladesinger is pretty damn sweet, now that I think about it.

[Ravinsild]

Is it just me or does the class feel as though it gained a bit more ribbons and RP-interactive stuff? It feels packed with flavor now, like the brand you cast can detect the direction a creature is at all times, like a super hunter's mark. That combined with your level 1 feature, Advantage to track undead, fey and fiends and advantage of knowledge checks to know stuff feels like you're an actual EXPERT at tracing down your foes.

The higher levels where you can block teleportation, grim psychometry feels like it adds a level of RP depth.

I don't know it feels like the class got "more full" in a meaningful way? Is that just me?

[Dr. Cliché]

As I've said elsewhere, one thing that really kills this Class for me (at least as far as the Lycan is concerned) is the change to the Bloodlust rule.

Previously, the save was harder, but at least once combat finished and things calmed down you were basically safe (barring damage from traps or such).

Now though, if you finish a fight below 50% hp:

"DM, now that we're out of combat, could you let me know each time 6 seconds passes so that I can make another Bloodlust roll?"

'So now that we've beaten these goblins-'
'Make a Bloodlust check.'
Rolls dice
'9'
'Okay, you're fine.'
'As I was saying, do you think that we-'
'Make a Bloodlust check.'
Rolls dice
'12'
'Okay, you're good.'
'Right, so there was that path back there and-'
'Make a Bloodlust check.'
Rolls dice
'16'
'That's fine.'
'Where was I? Oh, right, there was that-'
'Make a Bloodlust check.'
Rolls dice
'11'
'You're good.'
'So, lad, you were saying something about a passage?'
'Yes, I-'
'Make a Bloodlust check.'
Rolls dice
'18'
'Sure.'
'Yes, I think I saw something glittering and I-'
'Make a Bloodlust check.'
Rolls dice
'Crap. 5'
'Okay, who's nearest?'
'I am.'
'Right, make an attack against Dwelf.'
'AC21?'
'Sigh. Yes, that hits me.'
'Okay, you take 9 damage. Sorry.'
'What do yer think yer doing, lad? You just took a chunk-'
'Make a Bloodlust check.'
Rolls dice
'13'
'Okay, you're fine.'
'Right, like I was saying, you just took a chunk out of my shoulder. What's come over-'
'Make a Bloodlust check.'
Rolls dice
'14'
'Okay, you're fine.'
...
'You know I've got Call of Cthulhu with me if you want to give that a try instead...'

[ProsecutorGodot]

SNIP
Again, just put a little investment into Wisdom and you'll meet that flat DC of 8 no problem, it's not like the old version where you could spend your entire turn at level 3 to activate your transformation and blood rite and then roll poorly on your next turn (activating your own blood rite triggered bloodlust) and spend your first turn post setup attacking your party instead of the enemy.

The downside was significantly more volatile before this change, even with the class being wisdom based before. It's surprisingly not that difficult to maintain over half your hit points and if you're in a situation where it would be you're probably looking for a rest anyway which means you can drop the form, rest safely, and have the use back with your hit points.

"I don't want to drop the form" is not an argument that the design is poor either, in my opinion. Just drop it and shoot for a rest, you're a short rest based class, this is almost certainly not the only resource you've spent.

[Ravinsild]

I'm really on the fence between Intelligence and Wisdom for this class.

I get the forbidden knowledge, keying off Int. That makes sense.

But tracking your prey, hunting them, stalking them in a sort of Witcher style, that screams Wisdom to me.

I also argue that for MC purposes, Wisdom makes a ton more sense. I can see tons of Blood Hunters that're also part Cleric, or Ranger, or Druid. I don't see many, lore-wise, that're also Wizards or Artificers.

......but BH / Bladesinger is pretty damn sweet, now that I think about it.

I always imagined them as basically Warhammer Inquisitors and Giles from Buffy, with tons of grimoires and tomes and bestiaries (in world monster manuals :P) that told them about their prey, and their experience is what what helps them track them down from brain knowledge. Also I guess Supernatural (The Grim brothers) style like researching in a library about their foe before they go out hunting and less Ranger tracking, but that's just me. Those are the tropes that come to mind when I personally think blood hunter, nerd with a book that tells them stuff about their enemy so they can prepare.

[Dr. Cliché]

Again, just put a little investment into Wisdom and you'll meet that flat DC of 8 no problem

Even if you get your wisdom high enough that you can make almost all of your saves, you're still having to roll those saves.

If you seriously can't see how needing to roll a save every 6 seconds breaks up the flow of gameplay then I really can't help you.

[Ravinsild]

As I've said elsewhere, one thing that really kills this Class for me (at least as far as the Lycan is concerned) is the change to the Bloodlust rule.

Previously, the save was harder, but at least once combat finished and things calmed down you were basically safe (barring damage from traps or such).

Now though, if you finish a fight below 50% hp:

"DM, now that we're out of combat, could you let me know each time 6 seconds passes so that I can make another Bloodlust roll?"

'So now that we've beaten these goblins-'
'Make a Bloodlust check.'
Rolls dice
'9'
'Okay, you're fine.'
'As I was saying, do you think that we-'
'Make a Bloodlust check.'
Rolls dice
'12'
'Okay, you're good.'
'Right, so there was that path back there and-'
'Make a Bloodlust check.'
Rolls dice
'16'
'That's fine.'
'Where was I? Oh, right, there was that-'
'Make a Bloodlust check.'
Rolls dice
'11'
'You're good.'
'So, lad, you were saying something about a passage?'
'Yes, I-'
'Make a Bloodlust check.'
Rolls dice
'18'
'Sure.'
'Yes, I think I saw something glittering and I-'
'Make a Bloodlust check.'
Rolls dice
'Crap. 5'
'Okay, who's nearest?'
'I am.'
'Right, make an attack against Dwelf.'
'AC21?'
'Sigh. Yes, that hits me.'
'Okay, you take 9 damage. Sorry.'
'What do yer think yer doing, lad? You just took a chunk-'
'Make a Bloodlust check.'
Rolls dice
'13'
'Okay, you're fine.'
'Right, like I was saying, you just took a chunk out of my shoulder. What's come over-'
'Make a Bloodlust check.'
Rolls dice
'14'
'Okay, you're fine.'
...
'You know I've got Call of Cthulhu with me if you want to give that a try instead...'

Yeah or just you know get to 51% HP with the massive amounts of healing tools available in a myriad of ways :|


Even if you get your wisdom high enough that you can make almost all of your saves, you're still having to roll those saves.

If you seriously can't see how needing to roll a save every 6 seconds breaks up the flow of gameplay then I really can't help you.

I've watched Critical Roll to some degree and my gut instinct is that it's meant to be PART of the flow of gameplay. The Lycan is probably supposed to ask for healing, QUICKLY, BEFORE I LOSE CONTROL! Sort of dramatic moment that is inbuilt into the system.

The character might start to prepare by bringing along a ton of healing potions, or letting the party know ahead of time "Okay save some lay on hands for me just in case", etc. It's probably meant to be a "story moment" and add some drama to the gameplay....based on what I know of critical roll. Just my 2 cents.

Matt Mercer seems like the type of dude to ask a question like, "What does it mean to adventure with a werewolf?" and then ask follow up questions like "Can you really trust this person?" and then designed some in-built drama to see if other people also ask this question. It's sort of... RP making in the system I guess. "Do we really want to adventure with this guy that has a chance of freaking out on us?" And then it creates a whole scene and maybe the characters bond over it and learn to trust each other more deeply or something and develop a system to keep their bro in check. IDK just spitballing.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Even if you get your wisdom high enough that you can make almost all of your saves, you're still having to roll those saves.

If you seriously can't see how needing to roll a save every 6 seconds breaks up the flow of gameplay then I really can't help you.

Or, I repeat, drop the form and rest. If you're unwilling to drop your transformation when you know it could endanger your allies, they wouldn't be incorrect as seeing your character as a liability.

EDIT: Since this thread is about the general opinion of the changes as a whole, I should share mine. Profane Soul 5/ Wizard 6 player here. At first I wasn't thrilled about the changes but looking back on them has changed my opinion to a pretty strong positive. It's more of a side effect that my current blood hunter benefits pretty largely from these changes.

Obviously blood rites dealing damage that can be healed is the most significant change and on its own that's enough to justify many of the nerfs, which are few and far between as it is. The Blood Curses, while still not all great, are better. The only real loss is Blood Curse of Mutual Suffering, but that one always struck me as out of place and with some pretty big potential to cause issue. Mutant is actually a pretty standout improvement. The removal of the mutation score in favor of flat bonuses is much better. Immunity to poison at level 7 is also a nice bonus.

I'd be so bold as to claim that the gap between subclasses has lessened to such a degree that I could recommend all 4 easily.

My criticism is that moving your DC and bonuses to intelligence still hasn't done a lot to move that stat off the tertiary priority after Str/Dex and Con. The benefits from having a high Int (outside of Profane Soul) are still relatively minor compared to having more hit points. The gap is closed some since the damage from rites isn't as permanent.

[Dr. Cliché]

Or, I repeat, drop the form and rest. If you're unwilling to drop your transformation when you know it could endanger your allies, they wouldn't be incorrect as seeing your character as a liability.

Which - as I pointed out in the other thread - makes a complete mockery of the supposed improvement to the form's duration, which came at the expense of an additional use per rest.



Yeah or just you know get to 51% HP with the massive amounts of healing tools available in a myriad of ways :|

Ah yes, because every party has infinite healing available to them at all times, spell slots are never ever used for anything else, and no party member other than the Blood Hunter ever needs healing more urgently.

But then, I foolishly forgot how this forum will defend to the death every mechanic in 5e, no matter how atrocious the design.

[Ravinsild]

Which - as I pointed out in the other thread - makes a complete mockery of the supposed improvement to the form's duration, which came at the expense of an additional use per rest.




Ah yes, because every party has infinite healing available to them at all times, spell slots are never ever used for anything else, and no party member other than the Blood Hunter ever needs healing more urgently.

But then, I foolishly forgot how this forum will defend to the death every mechanic in 5e, no matter how atrocious the design.

I responded to your hyperbole with a reasonable answer. Problem: Being below 50% makes you roll. Solution: Heal yourself.

Or like Godot said, just drop the form. Healing potions are also an option in addition to other items. Wand of Cure Wounds, etc. One "problem" people bring up about 5e is how it's "too easy to heal" or "there's too much healing" so idk what to tell you.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Ah yes, because every party has infinite healing available to them at all times, spell slots are never ever used for anything else, and no party member other than the Blood Hunter ever needs healing more urgently.


If you've got urgently wounded party members other than yourself, even more reason not to keep yourself in your transformation and risk actually killing them. With a small investment into wisdom you can make full use of that hour long duration with literally zero downside since even the cursed vulnerability (which was only a situational downside to begin with) is also gone.

Once you guarantee you can meet a dc 8 wisdom save (not difficult) you get huge benefits for an hour long duration.

[Dr. Cliché]

I responded to your hyperbole with a reasonable answer.

No, what you did was assume that the ideal scenario is always available to the players on every occasion, in spite of the fact that it requires a finite resource.

Also, 'one save every 6 seconds' is not hyperbole. That is literally how the rule works.




Or like Godot said, just drop the form.

Cool. So glad the duration of the Lycan form was extended in exchange for uses/Rest. But who wants to actually use their subclass feature for more than 1 minute at a time, right?

Moreover, since when was it considered good design by members of this forum to balance mechanics by making them excruciatingly irritating to use?


If you've got urgently wounded party members other than yourself, even more reason not to keep yourself in your transformation and risk actually killing them.

And then you really have to hope that you're able to rest. Because if combat finds you first then you're now stuck out of your Lycan form. The form that is supposed to last you an hour, had the designer not dropped his pants and taken a massive dump on it.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Moreover, since when was it considered good design by members of this forum to balance mechanics by making them excruciatingly irritating to use?

We're pretending that rolling a save each time you take damage, in a class that damages themselves, is better design than only having to roll saves under half HP when there are numerous options and opportunities to stay above half HP?

As far as duration is concerned, we could go back to the old version where it only lasts 10 minutes and takes your full action to activate until level 11, meaning that even if you kept it up it might not stay between encounters if your Wizard does something as "unlikely" as ritual casting a spell.

[Ravinsild]

Some people want to be right more than they want to be helped.

I'm in 3 active campaigns. Healing has never been an issue, except when characters have outright died (which has happened more than once in each campaign.) If they aren't dead, it's not an issue. End of story. (We don't even have clerics in some of of them, we have a celestial Warlock and a Ranger).

[Amechra]

I mean, Order of the Lycan literally gets regeneration after 11th level.

[Arkhios]

Reading all the posts complaining about the changes to Blood Hunter, I became more and more interested on the class than ever before. Yes, I know. I'm weird.

Also, the notion that Blood Hunter fits perfectly into a gothic horror setting was what finally sold me the idea to take a closer look into it. As soon as I have the patience and peace to do so :P

[Amechra]

Reading all the posts complaining about the changes to Blood Hunter, I became more and more interested on the class than ever before. Yes, I know. I'm weird.

Those comments really do sound like a challenge, aren't they? I am a bit disappointed, though, that the changes made it so TWF is still non-viable while PAE continues to be The Best At Damage.

I mean, my one experience with the class was a single session where I sat in on a table where the poor player was tying to play a dual-wielding Blood Hunter. In the one fight I was part of, she managed to Crimson Rite a one of her scimitars and make a single attack for something like 9 damage. She was... visibly disheartened when my Barbarian got a lucky crit and dealt 40 damage. And when the Hexadin put out something like 20+ damage with a single smite. And then the boss was dead before she got a chance to even finish buffing her weapons.

Blood Hunters getting Two-Weapon Fighting is a bit of a trap, is what I'm saying (yeah, you can prebuff your weapons, but Crimson Rite ends when you aren't holding your weapons, so you'd better be OK with having your hands be full).

Something similar applies to the Order of the Lycan - if you're in a situation where hulking out into Hybrid form is a possibility, their unarmed strikes are hands-down better than a Monk's damage wise, and they're generally beefier. However, they can't mix their unarmed strikes with weapons as easily as a Monk can, and getting ambushed without your buffs up is going to require that you take two turns to get to full-on murder mode.

[Ravinsild]

"All the complaints" are one guy lamenting his particular subclass has been UTTERLY DEMOLISHED.

[Willie the Duck]

For legal reasons, I can’t really copy and paste the whole thing.

But the class has been rewritten. It’ll be on D&D Beyond in due time. You can get it now by paying a little money on DMsGuild, and the money goes toward Australia fire relief.

If it is coming to D&DBeyond, where was the old one? Was it UA or something else?

[Dork_Forge]

I'm really on the fence between Intelligence and Wisdom for this class.

I get the forbidden knowledge, keying off Int. That makes sense.

But tracking your prey, hunting them, stalking them in a sort of Witcher style, that screams Wisdom to me.

I also argue that for MC purposes, Wisdom makes a ton more sense. I can see tons of Blood Hunters that're also part Cleric, or Ranger, or Druid. I don't see many, lore-wise, that're also Wizards or Artificers.

......but BH / Bladesinger is pretty damn sweet, now that I think about it.

I also like the idea of an Eldritch Knight that turned to the forbidden section of the barracks library when he failed to save someone close to him or an Arcane Trickster that stole the knowledge they need to avenge their family.



Which - as I pointed out in the other thread - makes a complete mockery of the supposed improvement to the form's duration, which came at the expense of an additional use per rest.




Ah yes, because every party has infinite healing available to them at all times, spell slots are never ever used for anything else, and no party member other than the Blood Hunter ever needs healing more urgently.

But then, I foolishly forgot how this forum will defend to the death every mechanic in 5e, no matter how atrocious the design.

This isn't an issue, it's a low DC and it's half your health, if you don't want to spend points in Wisdom or whatever than simply stop rely on others to heal you. The onus is on you to buy up as many healing potions as you need, to take the Healer feat and carry Healer Kits or hell just pick up Magic Initiate or multiclass. The Blood Hunter is a risk reward class, that doesn't just apply to the Crimson Rite feature, if you don't want to deal with what it entails (in exchange for a pretty powerful subclass) simply use the old version or just play something else, you have plenty of ways of dealing with staying in control.

[Amechra]

"All the complaints" are one guy lamenting his particular subclass has been UTTERLY DEMOLISHED.

I mean, just snooping around on D&D Beyond (the revision is up and publicly available, by the way - I can see it even though I don't have an account), there are quite a few people going "I'm going to be using the pre-revision version, kthnx".

Complaints seem to be the whole "aww man, why is it Intelligence now instead of Wisdom" and "the Blood Curses are garbage now".

Honestly, I think it feels less janky now. Kinda.

---

I still feel like the Ghostslayer is the strongest choice if you aren't going for any particular shenanigans, but someone's probably going to prove me wrong.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I mean, just snooping around on D&D Beyond (the revision is up and publicly available, by the way - I can see it even though I don't have an account), there are quite a few people going "I'm going to be using the pre-revision version, kthnx".

Complaints seem to be the whole "aww man, why is it Intelligence now instead of Wisdom" and "the Blood Curses are garbage now".

Honestly, I think it feels less janky now. Kinda.

---

I still feel like the Ghostslayer is the strongest choice if you aren't going for any particular shenanigans, but someone's probably going to prove me wrong.

Really? There are people saying the blood curses are weaker? It doesn't seem that way to me.

Which ones are they referencing, because we've trimmed the list of those downright useless ones such as Fending Rite, Spell Sunder, and Purgation and in their place we gained some pretty decent ones like Bloated Agony and Muddled Mind. The only real loss, imo, is Mutual Suffering (which on reflection, is effectively moved to Brand of Castigation). I suppose there's also the range decrease on a few of them, which can be a bit problematic for those ranged blood hunters, but the effects of the curses are generally unchanged or a bit better.

That said, I won't fault anyone for wanting to keep on using the older version. Both versions are functional, I just think the newer one is going to be a better overall choice as it punishes you a lot less for using your core class feature.

[Amechra]

Really? There are people saying the blood curses are weaker? It doesn't seem that way to me.

Which ones are they referencing, because we've trimmed the list of those downright useless ones such as Fending Rite, Spell Sunder, and Purgation and in their place we gained some pretty decent ones like Bloated Agony and Muddled Mind. The only real loss, imo, is Mutual Suffering. I suppose there's also the range decrease on a few of them, which can be a bit problematic for those ranged blood hunters, but the effects of the curses are generally unchanged or a bit better.

That said, I won't fault anyone for wanting to keep on using the older version. Both versions are functional, I just think the newer one is going to be a better overall choice as it punishes you a lot less for using your core class feature.

To quote one "Pravikan":


I do enjoy many aspects of the Blood Hunter class, its archetypal identity is a welcome one in the world of D&D. That said, I'll continue to play the archived one instead of the revamped edition. I won't discuss the stat choice change, as it is the focus of most peoples discussions below, and there is little to add.

The Blood Curses, in particular, have been drastically under-powered. Whereas, when designing my original B.H., it was a challenge to choose which of the Curses I wanted to take first. Now, none of them (particularly the low level, non sub specific ones) seem particularly utilitarian. Nor am I tempted to Amplify any of them (which was the reason the amplifications were originally on the more powerful side; they were mechanical temptations).

Arguably the most flavorful ability of of the Order of the Ghostslayer, it's 18th level revival, has completely changed. Yes its more "streamlined", but at the cost of an interesting and complex power that defined the subclass.

Order of the Lycan, my preferred sub, received some significant upgrades. Bloodlust isn't an instant punish, which removes its "Dark Souls"-type playstyle. For better or worse, depending on your outlook.

Order of the Mutant has been re-calibrated and balanced. It appears more balanced than it's original version I'm not sure, but it seems as if some of the original ideas present in some of the Blood Curses and/or Special abilities of the basic class have instead been changed into Mutagens. Not sure why that change was made.

I can tell they did a lot of work on the class. I'm not sure what the initial reason was for the total overhaul, but there are definitely some love-hate decisions made here.

Your guess is as good as mine.

[Ravinsild]

I find it strange because I had tried playing one before (two-weapon fighting, with a sword and a "pistol" [hand crossbow]) with XBE and the Archery fighting style (I was melee...idk man my excuse is fun) like a Warhammer inquisitor (Flintlock and Sabre) but it felt *so* one note of *just* combat with 0 ribbons but now the class looks way more well rounded and fleshed out and full and seems a lot more appealing now for some reason. I don't know haha. I'd love to give it another go.

Albeit I was playing Ghostslayer myself.

[ProsecutorGodot]

To quote one "Pravikan":

Your guess is as good as mine.

Ah, I had seen that post on DND Beyond after you said you'd been skimming there but I don't really agree. Aside from all of the previously 60ft range ones losing 30ft off, the amplifying of them has remained unchanged or been improved in effectiveness.

-Blood Curse of Binding: Now prevents a target from using reactions as well as reducing their speed to 0. Strangely you no longer have the option to end the amplified version whenever you'd like, which is more of a neutral change.
-Blood Curse of the Eyeless: The most significantly changed, now uses your hemocraft die to decide the penalty rather than disadvantage. I believe this is better in the long run, makes it usable on top of giving a creature disadvantage in another way. The amplified version is also improved, affecting all attacks until the end of the turn rather than just one additional attack.
-Blood Curse of the Fallen Puppet: The target can also move half its speed in addition to gaining an attack bonus.
-Blood Curse of the Marked: Effectively the same, although instead of doubling rite damage you roll an additional die. Better for when you roll low on your first die. The amplification has been changed to instead give you advantage on your next attack against the target instead of being the absolutely worthless amplification of overcoming resistance to your rites element.
-Blood Curse of the Howl: The stunning effect is now reliant on the target being feared. The amplification effect is identical.


I find it strange because I had tried playing one before (two-weapon fighting, with a sword and a "pistol" [hand crossbow]) with XBE and the Archery fighting style (I was melee...idk man my excuse is fun) like a Warhammer inquisitor (Flintlock and Sabre) but it felt *so* one note of *just* combat with 0 ribbons but now the class looks way more well rounded and fleshed out and full and seems a lot more appealing now for some reason. I don't know haha. I'd love to give it another go.

Albeit I was playing Ghostslayer myself.
Brand of Castigation on its own does a lot for the flavor of the character, you didn't really get a whole lot of the blood magic feel from the blood curses alone (since I still feel they were quite weak in the older version) but with this brand you have an option to show of your dark and edgy hemocraft stuff even without using a maledict. Being able to magically scar someone and keep tabs on them for the rest of their life (assuming you never apply the brand again) is pretty spooky as well.

I hadn't realized this when I made him nearly 3 years ago now, but my Blood Hunter/ Wizard Bounty Hunter is a near perfect fit for the class now. This brand is exactly the sort of thing a bounty hunter would sell their soul for. I'm really excited to try it out when we finally dive back into that campaign.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Has anyone gotten a chance to play this yet? My players sort of snubbed their noses at the original Blood Hunter due to being mechanically weak/dangerous for the user, but a few liked the basic concept. I'd love to put more options on their table.

[Ravinsild]

Ah, I had seen that post on DND Beyond after you said you'd been skimming there but I don't really agree. Aside from all of the previously 60ft range ones losing 30ft off, the amplifying of them has remained unchanged or been improved in effectiveness.

-Blood Curse of Binding: Now prevents a target from using reactions as well as reducing their speed to 0. Strangely you no longer have the option to end the amplified version whenever you'd like, which is more of a neutral change.
-Blood Curse of the Eyeless: The most significantly changed, now uses your hemocraft die to decide the penalty rather than disadvantage. I believe this is better in the long run, makes it usable on top of giving a creature disadvantage in another way. The amplified version is also improved, affecting all attacks until the end of the turn rather than just one additional attack.
-Blood Curse of the Fallen Puppet: The target can also move half its speed in addition to gaining an attack bonus.
-Blood Curse of the Marked: Effectively the same, although instead of doubling rite damage you roll an additional die. Better for when you roll low on your first die. The amplification has been changed to instead give you advantage on your next attack against the target instead of being the absolutely worthless amplification of overcoming resistance to your rites element.
-Blood Curse of the Howl: The stunning effect is now reliant on the target being feared. The amplification effect is identical.


Brand of Castigation on its own does a lot for the flavor of the character, you didn't really get a whole lot of the blood magic feel from the blood curses alone (since I still feel they were quite weak in the older version) but with this brand you have an option to show of your dark and edgy hemocraft stuff even without using a maledict. Being able to magically scar someone and keep tabs on them for the rest of their life (assuming you never apply the brand again) is pretty spooky as well.

I hadn't realized this when I made him nearly 3 years ago now, but my Blood Hunter/ Wizard Bounty Hunter is a near perfect fit for the class now. This brand is exactly the sort of thing a bounty hunter would sell their soul for. I'm really excited to try it out when we finally dive back into that campaign.

Plus the attention to detail: The Ghostslayer can brand the incorporeal and their blood curses don't require blood from their targets, perfect for wraiths or undead constructs like flesh golems, and the like. It really fulfills that class fantasy of Van Helsing/The Witcher/Buffy the Vampire Slayer/etc...

[Amechra]

Honestly, I'd argue that the Ghostslayer is one of the, if not the, best subclasses. Sure, it's the simplest, but...

1) Very few things are resistant or immune to radiant damage.
2) Their curses can target any enemy, and they get an extra use without jumping through hoops.
3) They have a really good upgrade to Brand of Castigation, as well as a really solid capstone (for games that get that far).

The only real drawback is that their unique Blood Curse is awfully situational.

---

Looking over the Blood Curses (because someone pointed them out):

Blood Curse of Anxious: Eh. The only time I really think this one is good is when you amplify it, and you can only do that 1/long.
Blood Curse of Binding: Potentially locks down a skirmisher for the whole fight. Pretty darn good.
Blood Curse of Bloated Agony: This absolutely punishes melee bruisers. Even if you only get off the first turn, you either cancelled out a few attacks or dealt a chunk of necrotic damage to your victim. It's also really good if you're thinking of being a grappler - that being said, I wish you could pick the damage type.
Blood Curse of Exposure: A resounding meh from me. I guess it could be decent if you're in a party with someone who is heavily themed towards on particular damage type? And I guess it works with your Crimson Rite damage? Still pretty situational if you aren't a Fiend-patron Profane Soul.
Blood Curse of the Eyeless: Another pretty decent "shut down an enemy" feature. I'm noticing that they don't have much in the way of nerfing casters yet.
Blood Curse of the Fallen Puppet: Hilarious, but pretty situational. Amusingly, there's nothing that stops you from making the creature attack itself. You know, for those times when an opponent has death saving throws for some reason.
Blood Curse of the Marked: This is pretty great, especially if you're working on making some kind of crit fisher. Not perfect, but what is?
Blood Curse of the Muddled Mind: Why oh why doesn't this force a saving throw to maintain Concentration? I mean, it's alright even without that, but I would've preferred it if the amplified effect was forcing an immediate save instead of what we got.

Annoyingly, there are only eight Blood Curses, and you get to know six. Yeah, yeah, I know there are the subclass-specific ones, but they don't take up a Curse known.

[Ravinsild]

Honestly, I'd argue that the Ghostslayer is one of the, if not the, best subclasses. Sure, it's the simplest, but...

1) Very few things are resistant or immune to radiant damage.
2) Their curses can target any enemy, and they get an extra use without jumping through hoops.
3) They have a really good upgrade to Brand of Castigation, as well as a really solid capstone (for games that get that far).

The only real drawback is that their unique Blood Curse is awfully situational.

---

Looking over the Blood Curses (because someone pointed them out):

Blood Curse of Anxious: Eh. The only time I really think this one is good is when you amplify it, and you can only do that 1/long.
Blood Curse of Binding: Potentially locks down a skirmisher for the whole fight. Pretty darn good.
Blood Curse of Bloated Agony: This absolutely punishes melee bruisers. Even if you only get off the first turn, you either cancelled out a few attacks or dealt a chunk of necrotic damage to your victim. It's also really good if you're thinking of being a grappler - that being said, I wish you could pick the damage type.
Blood Curse of Exposure: A resounding meh from me. I guess it could be decent if you're in a party with someone who is heavily themed towards on particular damage type? And I guess it works with your Crimson Rite damage? Still pretty situational if you aren't a Fiend-patron Profane Soul.
Blood Curse of the Eyeless: Another pretty decent "shut down an enemy" feature. I'm noticing that they don't have much in the way of nerfing casters yet.
Blood Curse of the Fallen Puppet: Hilarious, but pretty situational. Amusingly, there's nothing that stops you from making the creature attack itself. You know, for those times when an opponent has death saving throws for some reason.
Blood Curse of the Marked: This is pretty great, especially if you're working on making some kind of crit fisher. Not perfect, but what is?
Blood Curse of the Muddled Mind: Why oh why doesn't this force a saving throw to maintain Concentration? I mean, it's alright even without that, but I would've preferred it if the amplified effect was forcing an immediate save instead of what we got.

Annoyingly, there are only eight Blood Curses, and you get to know six. Yeah, yeah, I know there are the subclass-specific ones, but they don't take up a Curse known.

My Blood Hunter died (I was trying to hit on a banshee....I can explain.) and I redid him with this class update and I myself took Binding and Muddled Mind. I think disadvantage on concentration would be really sweet against enemy spellcaster type monsters. I mean it sounds cool on paper, but then again I also dual-wield a rapier (sabre) and a flintlock (Hand-Crossbow) so I'm going for rule of cool anyway and a theme as it were so... y'know.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Those comments really do sound like a challenge, aren't they? I am a bit disappointed, though, that the changes made it so TWF is still non-viable while PAE continues to be The Best At Damage.

I mean, my one experience with the class was a single session where I sat in on a table where the poor player was tying to play a dual-wielding Blood Hunter. In the one fight I was part of, she managed to Crimson Rite a one of her scimitars and make a single attack for something like 9 damage. She was... visibly disheartened when my Barbarian got a lucky crit and dealt 40 damage. And when the Hexadin put out something like 20+ damage with a single smite. And then the boss was dead before she got a chance to even finish buffing her weapons.

Blood Hunters getting Two-Weapon Fighting is a bit of a trap, is what I'm saying (yeah, you can prebuff your weapons, but Crimson Rite ends when you aren't holding your weapons, so you'd better be OK with having your hands be full).

Something similar applies to the Order of the Lycan - if you're in a situation where hulking out into Hybrid form is a possibility, their unarmed strikes are hands-down better than a Monk's damage wise, and they're generally beefier. However, they can't mix their unarmed strikes with weapons as easily as a Monk can, and getting ambushed without your buffs up is going to require that you take two turns to get to full-on murder mode.

I played a TWF Blood Hunter, also with a Barbarian and Paladin in the group. (Curse of Strahd, FWIW.) In fights we were prepared for in advance, I could keep up with them okay. If you were constantly getting surprised, or charging in without taking time to "power up" that would make things difficult for your Blood Hunter player.

[GlenSmash!]

I like the balance changes on the whole, and I'm always ok with more Int based classes.

My problem is that all the things I find most interesting about the Bloodhunter are things I'd rather see on Ranger subclasses.