PDA

View Full Version : Metamagic as Spells?



Skjaldbakka
2007-10-22, 04:53 AM
This would normally fit better in the homebrew section, but given that the 'wizards are teh broken' argument has popped up again, I figured it wouldn't be too out of place in the main gaming forum.

So, without any further ado, here is the idea:

Get rid of metamagic feats. Remove the bonus feats from the wizard. Convert metamagic feats to spells that are swift actions to cast (with the exception of the Sudden X line). Give the sorcerer a bonus metamagic feat progression, the same that the wizard used to get. Instead of metamagic feats, they pick from the various 'Sudden X' feats. Replace the wizard's bonus feats with item creation.

Sample Metamagic Spells:

Empower:
lvl 2 Univeral
Action: Swift
Target: Self
Duration: 1 round

The next spell you cast of 4th level or lower this round is empowered.

Greater Empower
lvl 4 Universal
Swift Action
Personal

The next spell you cast of of 8th level or lower this round is empowered.

You can probably pick up the pattern from there. Maximize/G. Maximize is 3rd and 6th, and hits up to 4th, and then up to 8th.

Quicken only becomes available via Sudden Quicken.


My thoughts on how this would effect gameplay:

Wizards never stop caring about spell slots, because metamagic burns spell slots. Sorcerers suck at metamagic, because they have a small number of spells/dayknown :smalleek: . Metamagic items don't work anymore, because they are a swift action to cast, and require that you then cast another spell in the same round, so if you want metamagic, you are burning spell slots for them.

Dhavaer
2007-10-22, 05:11 AM
Sorcerers suck at metamagic, because they have a small number of spells/day.

Do you mean spells known? Sorcerers get heaps of spells/day.

leperkhaun
2007-10-22, 05:14 AM
i would much rather have a lower level spell slot for meta magic, than use a 6-9 level spot because of the adjustment.

Anyway this allows too much. A ring of wizardry means you could have a whole lot of meta magic for free, as would a bunch of pearls of power.

TheSteelRat
2007-10-22, 05:31 AM
I'd suggest that you can learn metamagicked spells as normal spells (they already exist in Core, at the right level adjustments), and using the "multiple spell slots of the same level" method. This gives a distinct advantage to sorcerer's though. Or, a wizard would be able to blow all his 9th lvl slots for a maximized Timestop. You might still want level caps into there.

Been working on a spell point system myself, my last one didn't work too well.

Raum
2007-10-22, 07:40 AM
Get rid of metamagic feats. Remove the bonus feats from the wizard. Convert metamagic feats to spells that are swift actions to cast (with the exception of the Sudden X line). Give the sorcerer a bonus metamagic feat progression, the same that the wizard used to get. Instead of metamagic feats, they pick from the various 'Sudden X' feats. Replace the wizard's bonus feats with item creation.You realize this would make wizards even more powerful than currently, right? Even with the spells written to limit the level of the affected spell, wizards will a) no longer have to memorize a specific spell / feat combo; and b) be able to cast more metamagiced spells. It's a whole lot easier for a 7th level wizard to burn a 1st and a 3rd level spell slot to extend a Slow than to burn one of the few 4th level slots you have...assuming you even prepared one.

Kaelik
2007-10-22, 12:29 PM
You realize this would make wizards even more powerful than currently, right? Even with the spells written to limit the level of the affected spell, wizards will a) no longer have to memorize a specific spell / feat combo; and b) be able to cast more metamagiced spells. It's a whole lot easier for a 7th level wizard to burn a 1st and a 3rd level spell slot to extend a Slow than to burn one of the few 4th level slots you have...assuming you even prepared one.

I disagree. At higher levels this might be an effective nerf depending on how it interacts with Incantrix/Arcane Thesis/Other Metamagic reducers. It limits options considerably, you would arguably lose out on rods. And it limits spells cast greatly, there seems to be no way to get Quicken for anyone (look at the pre-reqs for Sudden Quicken, note that you must take feats that no longer exist to get it.) And swift action spells become much less useful since you are constantly having to juggle your swift actions with Metamagic.

All that said, I really like it. With some tweaks it could reduce most of the higher level Metamagic abuses, while making it easier (and thus more likely) to really use metamagic as it was intended. Plus it means that Wizards could spend more feats on lots of things that would increase their versatility. I usually have to neglect good feat choices because I need my Metamagic feats.

Jasdoif
2007-10-22, 01:08 PM
It's worth noting that with this, you can only apply a single metamagic effect pre-epic due to the limit on swift actions. Kinda like metapsionic effects, really.

The main issue I see is that, for wizards, it offers increased versatility and earlier options for raw power. Normally you'd need a 6th level slot to empower one specific 4th-level spell. With this, you can use a 2nd-level spell to empower that same 4th-level spell...or any other 4th-level or lower spell. And you can empower a 2nd-level spell through normal casting as soon as you get 2nd-level spells, instead of needing a 4th-level slot or alternative source of metamagic.

Raum
2007-10-22, 02:53 PM
I disagree. At higher levels this might be an effective nerf depending on how it interacts with Incantrix/Arcane Thesis/Other Metamagic reducers. It's only a nerf if you're comparing it to cheese builds such as Incantrix or Divine Metamagic. Compared to any caster actually using higher level spells to cast the metamagiced version, it's far more powerful. As mentioned previously, the caster will have more flexibility (he doesn't have to prepare it ahead of time) and a greater quantity of potentially metamagiced spells. Just look at how many more Empowered Fireballs a CL 9 caster could throw with this version than if he had to use 5th level spell slots.


It limits options considerably, you would arguably lose out on rods. And it limits spells cast greatly, there seems to be no way to get Quicken for anyone (look at the pre-reqs for Sudden Quicken, note that you must take feats that no longer exist to get it.) And swift action spells become much less useful since you are constantly having to juggle your swift actions with Metamagic.You lose rods and gain staves which you can use more often. Or just replace said rod with an equivalent wondrous item. If you want to remove Quicken, just remove it. I'm not convinced your swift actions are any less useful, it's not like every spell cast is metamagiced.


All that said, I really like it. With some tweaks it could reduce most of the higher level Metamagic abuses, while making it easier (and thus more likely) to really use metamagic as it was intended. Plus it means that Wizards could spend more feats on lots of things that would increase their versatility. I usually have to neglect good feat choices because I need my Metamagic feats.Hmm, yeah I missed that in my original post - the extra feats are another area where you're increasing the wizard's power.