Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

[Estradus]

Howdy! I'm working on an overcomplicated necromancer build in 3.x gestalt and, well... spellcasters in 3e have so many options I have trouble keeping track of them all, but I ended up with some interesting class abilities for necromancy spells and I want to know how best to utilize them. This has a lot of 3rd party content already so like, anything goes? But I understand a preference to keep towards official content.

The big one is Augment Necromancy from the Devoted Necromancer base class (from a splatbook: Dark Arts of Necromancy). Basically, by level 20 I get to ignore 6 metamagic levels for necromancy spells. This is why I want metamagic specifically.

Some other abilities that might augment these requests:
1: Eschew Necromantic Spell Component (Death Lord, Magic of Arcanis): I can use a casting focus (1000g of onyx in a fancy symbol) in place of costly components for necromancy spells, so any high GP component spells (besides the creation of undead) would be useful to know as well.
2: Extended Necromancy (Crypt Lord, Relics and Rituals): Any transmutation spell "that relates to the modification of a body" (references bulls strength and polymorph as examples) can be taken as a necromancy spell, but with obvious taint. This does vastly increase the number of options for the first two abilities as well.

The main things I have on my list so far include what I learned from my friend's dread necro years ago (Maximized shivering touch (FB) for 18 dex damage) and a couple obvious effects with the later two abilities (gp-free gravestone stoneskin or persistent shapechange) but I just don't have a great sense of offensive necromancy spells or metamagic shenanigans.

TLDR: how would you metamagic necromancy if you got 6 metamagic levels for free?

[razorback]

Keeping with the theme, how about Fell Drain on Dessicate/Dessicate,Mass/Dessicating Bubble seems like a good start.

[Estradus]

Keeping with the theme, how about Fell Drain on Dessicate/Dessicate,Mass/Dessicating Bubble seems like a good start.

Ah, all the fell metamagics sound pretty on-flavor, though drain sounds like a pretty good general use option. That could be pretty effective, yeah.

[Oberron]

If you're going undead control necromancer can't go wrong with fell energy metamagic to buff your undead by a very considerable margin.

If you're a cha caster and using 3rd party there is the spell beauty'sleep caress from book of erotica fantasy. 1d4 cha/2 clvl with max and empower (and in reserves of strength to break caps) is a lot of cha.

[Gruftzwerg]

Another good option is always to go for better buffs. Extended/Empowered Spell and/or Chain Spell can help here imho.

[Segev]

Persistent Kiss of the Vampire will let you count as undead all day long for purposes of Fell Energy buffs you use on yourself.

Also consider keeping an orphanage of Slaymates; they give you reductions to metamagic, as well.

For excellent fodder for your free necromancer metamagic, look to the Mother Cyst feat. It gives you ten necromancy spells that offer lots of combat and control potential.

Oh, and reach spell is pretty awesome on a number of touch spells. Chain Spell will let you Command Undead your CL+1 Undead at a time.

[Estradus]

If you're going undead control necromancer can't go wrong with fell energy metamagic to buff your undead by a very considerable margin.

If you're a cha caster and using 3rd party there is the spell beauty'sleep caress from book of erotica fantasy. 1d4 cha/2 clvl with max and empower (and in reserves of strength to break caps) is a lot of cha.

yeah, doesnt that one cap at 5d4? going for +30 with the combo. Sadly, this is an int-based caster, but I can still make use of charisma.


Another good option is always to go for better buffs. Extended/Empowered Spell and/or Chain Spell can help here imho.


Persistent Kiss of the Vampire will let you count as undead all day long for purposes of Fell Energy buffs you use on yourself.

Also consider keeping an orphanage of Slaymates; they give you reductions to metamagic, as well.

For excellent fodder for your free necromancer metamagic, look to the Mother Cyst feat. It gives you ten necromancy spells that offer lots of combat and control potential.

Oh, and reach spell is pretty awesome on a number of touch spells. Chain Spell will let you Command Undead your CL+1 Undead at a time.

Okay, I hadn't heard of this Fell Energy one before, and its exactly one of those hidden gem feats I was hoping for.
I;ve worked with a few buffmaster builds before so I know the extended shenanigans, but I'd always had a lot of trouble trying to utilize the chain metamagic. My mind always goes to "chain lightning" and its a damage dealer - but chain buffs? chain debuffs? chain utility? That's some good stuff.
And thanks for cluing me in regarding the mother cyst feat, I've been looking for more ways to add some more necromancy spells to my list.

[Anthrowhale]

Song of the Dead converts Enchantment spells into Necromancy spells, and makes them work on undead.

[Estradus]

Song of the Dead converts Enchantment spells into Necromancy spells, and makes them work on undead.

Huh. That's really cool and kinda on-brand (i was considering dipping prestige bard to blackchanter to make undead ravers). A little disappointing that these spells cant then be used on living creatures, but there's plenty of great mind effecting buffs to choose from for a skeleton army. I like it.

[Segev]

Chain Spell May do less with save-allowing spells, but with Heighten Spell and free metamagic, you can push save DCs up pretty high. Plus, anything infested with a necrotic cyst has -2 to saves vs necromancy spells.

Reach Chain Necrotic Cyst is expensive without a lot of metamagic reduction, but hits CL+1 targets and some of them are bound to fail the save.

All of the spells that target creatures with necrotic cysts are valid to add Chain Spell to, as well. Chain Necrotic Eruption to do huge damage to a bunch of these victims and turn all that die from it into fireball-damage bombs that infect those hit by that damage with necrotic cysts. Note that nothing prevents multiple cysts in a victim; it doesn’t stack the penalty, but it makes it harder to remove all of them. Also note that the higher-level spells that spread cysts force the save with the higher spell level DC.

And Necrotic Empowerment can be Persisted, and Fell Energy can apply to it. If you have Kiss of the Vampire active (persistent or not) when you cast it, Fell Energy Necrotic Empowerment gives you +10 to several stats. (It does shut down your ability to cast other Mother Cyst spells while active, though, so be judicious.)

Oh, and you seem to have picked up on it’s power with buffs, but I want to point out that Chain Command Undead doesn’t allow a save to targets without an intelligence score. So that makes it very good for controlling high numbers of high hit die skeletons and zombies.

[Estradus]

Chain Spell May do less with save-allowing spells, but with Heighten Spell and free metamagic, you can push save DCs up pretty high. Plus, anything infested with a necrotic cyst has -2 to saves vs necromancy spells.

Reach Chain Necrotic Cyst is expensive without a lot of metamagic reduction, but hits CL+1 targets and some of them are bound to fail the save.

All of the spells that target creatures with necrotic cysts are valid to add Chain Spell to, as well. Chain Necrotic Eruption to do huge damage to a bunch of these victims and turn all that die from it into fireball-damage bombs that infect those hit by that damage with necrotic cysts. Note that nothing prevents multiple cysts in a victim; it doesn’t stack the penalty, but it makes it harder to remove all of them. Also note that the higher-level spells that spread cysts force the save with the higher spell level DC.

And Necrotic Empowerment can be Persisted, and Fell Energy can apply to it. If you have Kiss of the Vampire active (persistent or not) when you cast it, Fell Energy Necrotic Empowerment gives you +10 to several stats. (It does shut down your ability to cast other Mother Cyst spells while active, though, so be judicious.)

Oh, and you seem to have picked up on it’s power with buffs, but I want to point out that Chain Command Undead doesn’t allow a save to targets without an intelligence score. So that makes it very good for controlling high numbers of high hit die skeletons and zombies.

I was always put off on the flavor of necrotic cysts, but these are some great results - I'll try to see if I can't work it into something I can tolerate. And that trick with command undead on unreasonably large zombies is great!

[Segev]

I was always put off on the flavor of necrotic cysts, but these are some great results - I'll try to see if I can't work it into something I can tolerate. And that trick with command undead on unreasonably large zombies is great!
Yeah, it’s both gross and putting something questionable in your own body.

One last thing that occurs to me to mention: the seventh level spell in the Necrotic line is a Suggestion effect on a SUCCESSFUL save, and total enslavement in a failed one. Claiming that means even on failed saves you just mass suggested CL+1 victims.


I’m on my phone so can’t hunt it down effectively right now, but there’s a thread on this forum on the Fell Energy feat. There’s some argument over how exactly it applies, but it may give you some more ideas.

[Gruftzwerg]

Yeah, it’s both gross and putting something questionable in your own body.

One last thing that occurs to me to mention: the seventh level spell in the Necrotic line is a Suggestion effect on a SUCCESSFUL save, and total enslavement in a failed one. Claiming that means even on failed saves you just mass suggested CL+1 victims.


I’m on my phone so can’t hunt it down effectively right now, but there’s a thread on this forum on the Fell Energy feat. There’s some argument over how exactly it applies, but it may give you some more ideas.

that's really a powerful combo, but needs metamagic cost reduction in some way. chain spell sets the spell-grade 3lvls higher. Still very strong and achievable at higher lvls (and worth it imho).

[Segev]

that's really a powerful combo, but needs metamagic cost reduction in some way. chain spell sets the spell-grade 3lvls higher. Still very strong and achievable at higher lvls (and worth it imho).

Very true. The OP has metamagic mitigation, though, and if he didn’t, Slaymates are from the same book as the Necrotic spell line.

[Estradus]

Yeah, it’s both gross and putting something questionable in your own body.

One last thing that occurs to me to mention: the seventh level spell in the Necrotic line is a Suggestion effect on a SUCCESSFUL save, and total enslavement in a failed one. Claiming that means even on failed saves you just mass suggested CL+1 victims.


I’m on my phone so can’t hunt it down effectively right now, but there’s a thread on this forum on the Fell Energy feat. There’s some argument over how exactly it applies, but it may give you some more ideas.

Can I use the Fell Energy Feat along with the Song of the Dead feat to give fell-boosted heroism to my troopers? Can they still benefit from the morale bonus? I'll take a look for the forum.

[Segev]

Can I use the Fell Energy Feat along with the Song of the Dead feat to give fell-boosted heroism to my troopers? Can they still benefit from the morale bonus? I'll take a look for the forum.
Should work.

Another good one for Chain Spell, which unfortunately doesn’t benefit from necromancy-only metamagic mitigation, is Greater Magic Weapon. Bonus lasts for hours and at high level adds +4 or +5 to hit and damage.

[Gruftzwerg]

while we are at it - Chain Spell:
- Daze (since it's a 0th grade spell, it's still useful at lvl5 to chain it as 3rd lvl spell)
- Blind/Deafens
- Charm Person/Monster useful against many low lvl enemies or just townsfolk^^

[Estradus]

while we are at it - Chain Spell:
- Daze (since it's a 0th grade spell, it's still useful at lvl5 to chain it as 3rd lvl spell)
- Blind/Deafens
- Charm Person/Monster useful against many low lvl enemies or just townsfolk^^

So the moral I'm taking away from this seems to be: put chain spell high on my list of priorities and consider the chaining potential of all my spells, got it.

[Estradus]

So the moral I'm taking away from this seems to be: put chain spell high on my list of priorities and consider the chaining potential of all my spells, got it.

If I put black lore of moil on, say, chain daze, then it becomes a damaging spell and causes the chains to deal half damage, while also keeping the dc maxxed - is that logic correct?

[Segev]

If I put black lore of moil on, say, chain daze, then it becomes a damaging spell and causes the chains to deal half damage, while also keeping the dc maxxed - is that logic correct?
I thought Chain Spell hit DCs and damage, if both were present.

Upon looking it up, however... you’re exactly right in how that would work. It only hits DCs if there’s no damage.

[Oberron]

Okay, I hadn't heard of this Fell Energy one before, and its exactly one of those hidden gem feats I was hoping for.
I;ve worked with a few buffmaster builds before so I know the extended shenanigans, but I'd always had a lot of trouble trying to utilize the chain metamagic. My mind always goes to "chain lightning" and its a damage dealer - but chain buffs? chain debuffs? chain utility? That's some good stuff.
And thanks for cluing me in regarding the mother cyst feat, I've been looking for more ways to add some more necromancy spells to my list.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?586132-Fell-Energy-Spell-For-the-copperpinching-Necromancer-wanting-buff-undead

Yeah it is so under used I made a small guide for it. People have only been using it to boost hp with desecration but it can do soooo much more. Biggest part is save money equipping undead.


Reserves of strength is another good feat if you can increase your caster level or break cap of low caps like magic missile or beauty's caress.


What are your classes? You said you're interested based so I'm guessing game wizard and....?

[Estradus]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?586132-Fell-Energy-Spell-For-the-copperpinching-Necromancer-wanting-buff-undead

Yeah it is so under used I made a small guide for it. People have only been using it to boost hp with desecration but it can do soooo much more. Biggest part is save money equipping undead.


Reserves of strength is another good feat if you can increase your caster level or break cap of low caps like magic missile or beauty's caress.


What are your classes? You said you're interested based so I'm guessing game wizard and....?

Ah jeez. Classes. I collect a lot of 3rd party materials and spent many years making multiclass gish jack of all trades nightmares. I'd find lots of *interesting* classes but have to throw them away to get *that one ability I need*.

I decided to turn to focusing on the many flavours of a single class instead of going in every direction at once.

Lately I've been making characters using the Complete Control rules from dreamscarred press which has rules for calculating xp costs for individual class abilities and just buying them wholesale to build your characters from the ground up. I've been trying to find every weird class that fills the same sort of role - every weird 3rd party gadgety inventor class, or every weird 3rd party monk knockoff, or how many times can we make pirates?, etc, and only allowing myself to buy from those abilities. This is, predictably, me gathering every focused necromancer base and prestige class and seeing what happens. As a result, I've got a lot of classes! But some of them are more interesting than others? Most of the prestige class work will probably work in most builds but then I'd have to choose between my base necromancer classes. (I'm good at finding classes, I'm not as good at knowing all the spell options, thats why I'm here for help)

Base classes I'm drawing abilities from:
Dread Necro, obvz, along with death master for a couple of bonuses
Necromancer from Lords of the Night: Zombies (Green Ronin) has a ton of interesting abilities - detect undead at will and spontaneously cast necromancy spells the same way a cleric spontaneously casts c/i wounds spells is nice
Devoted Necromancer from the previously mentioned Dark Arts of Necromancy, possibly the sketchiest sourcebook I'm using, but gets me the augmented necromancy metamagic ability i'm having the most fun with
i didnt get anything from wizard variant abilities because most of them are copied or better done in other classes
Spellcasting is specifically taken from Death Master, with the bonus of 1: several means of adding to this spell list from classes (see below) and 2: being allowed to research other book's necromancy spells due to being kind of a wizard.

Prestige Classes: Some of these require divine magic, some arcane, just get yourself southern magician and qualify for everything like a boss.
Graven One and Necromancer from the origninal Warcraft d20 settings, because they both add very nice spells to my spell list, and graven one lets me do things like rip supernatural abilities out of one undead minion I've created and staple them onto another? Which can get silly.
Crypt Lord from Relics and Rituals, as stated in OP, lets me cast those transmutations
Corpse Caster from Eldritch Sorcery by Necromancer Games lets me do some cool things like cast some spells with the origin point being from a corpse
Death Lord from Magic of Arcanis is frontloaded with great necromancer abilities, like the necromantic focus ability and an ability called "You Are Mine" that basically adds your highest casting stat to your caster level for the purposes of control with animate dead - so, with Dread Necro it becomes (CL + [highest cast]) * (4+[cha]). Its like squaring that benefit.

I've got a bunch of other classes penciled in but a lot of them don't add much. If you wanted to follow in my footsteps with a normal build system i'd pull from those.

Race is similarly a mess of uncouth sources. Goal was to go to +3 la so i could buy it off later.
Blood Elf (warcraft campaign setting), +1 la, +2 int and dex, -2 con, +1 caster level for arcane spells, adds a collection of summoning and calling spells to spell list, takes longer to prepare spells in the morning.
Half-ogre (whatever version is in the crystal keep index), +1 LA - unusual decision to say the least but it'll make sense. lets you count as a giant and an ogre. +4 str, -2 int and cha.
Ogre Mage Template (WoW campaign setting (different from wc setting in that they made it kind of a standalone instead of expanding 3.x)) ogres or ogre-blood only, +1 la, +4 int, +2 wis, +6 cha, your racial hit dice count as caster levels in a class of your choice (not applicable here but nice)
primal giant (eberron xendrik, giants only): +0 la, -4 str, -2 con, +4 int and cha, +1 sla caster level.
I did not minmax those ability scores as hard as i could have.

TLDR: Don't ask me about what my builds look like. This character is spread across 6 separate google documents and she's only level 6 so far.

Edit: Thanks for that link btw, it looks like a great tool.

Edit Again: if I wind up with the xp for it, a dash of bardic music, prestige bard spell list, song of the dead and blackchanter (arcanis campaign setting, lets you affect undead with bardic music) just to complete the skeleton rave aesthetic.

[Oberron]

TLDR: Don't ask me about what my builds look like. This character is spread across 6 separate google documents and she's only level 6 so far.

Edit: Thanks for that link btw, it looks like a great tool.

Np, hope you enjoy.

A few other useful feats are the necromatic feats: heightened strength, heightened agility, grave born warrior

The str and agility give a +4 untyped bonus to str and dex respectively basically at the cost of counting the hd of the undead as one higher for control. Grave born warrior gives the undead any feat it can use. Power attack or martial study for a stance is really good. It also counts the HD for control as one higher. There is another feat that gives it an actual HD and a +1 tohit and damage but I don't remember the name.

As for undead themselves are you able to cherry pick your bodies or what? When is doubt shape stone + stone to flesh gives you a body of pretty much anything.

[Gruftzwerg]

If I put black lore of moil on, say, chain daze, then it becomes a damaging spell and causes the chains to deal half damage, while also keeping the dc maxxed - is that logic correct?

difficult, cause.. since Daze is lvl 0 "black lore of moil" will add 0 damage. If you heighten Daze to lvl1, there is no room left to argue imho.

[Segev]

difficult, cause.. since Daze is lvl 0 "black lore of moil" will add 0 damage. If you heighten Daze to lvl1, there is no room left to argue imho.

Right, forgot you were looking at applying it to a level 0 spell. Gruftzwerg is right: heighten it to level 1, then chain and Moil it, and the damage will be halved by the DC unaffected. This does make it cost 25 gp/casting, and the time it takes to prep the 25 gp bone-rune. Also, a level 4 spell slot, before mitigation.

[Estradus]

Np, hope you enjoy.

A few other useful feats are the necromatic feats: heightened strength, heightened agility, grave born warrior

The str and agility give a +4 untyped bonus to str and dex respectively basically at the cost of counting the hd of the undead as one higher for control. Grave born warrior gives the undead any feat it can use. Power attack or martial study for a stance is really good. It also counts the HD for control as one higher. There is another feat that gives it an actual HD and a +1 tohit and damage but I don't remember the name.

As for undead themselves are you able to cherry pick your bodies or what? When is doubt shape stone + stone to flesh gives you a body of pretty much anything.

hmmm... on one hand, those increase hd for the purposes of control level - on the other hand, if I make masterwork skeletons (4hd and 18 base str, hollowfaust: city of necromancers) and combine the necromancer's ring with the animators band (you can wear both rings as 1 ring slot, relics and rituals 2 and hollowfaust respectively) i can "control any superior or mwk skeleton .. as if it had 1 hd."

I don't want to invest in too many "multiple sources of the same thing" though, so heightened str and heightened agility are out - corpsecrafting and dread necro empowerment have that covered, but the feat one is interesting and different, i'll definitely play around with that and see what happens - can even put your minions to practical use instead of just combat boosts if you want to.

The ravenloft undead focused expansion (van richtens guide to the walking dead) has a skill called reign undead (cha), that, among its animal handling but for mindless undead, lets you "train" mindless undead in complex tasks (and simple, but noone cares about that). It takes 2 months (3 hours per day) and a dc 25 skill check to train a number of undead equal to your int *score*, but it gives them a modifier to any profession sub-skill equal to 1/2 your reign undead skill modifier. Sure, it wastes 2 months, but then you've got 22 mindless zombies out there mining with +20 profession miner bonuses, or +20 profession construction worker paving your roads or building your towers. Why make war... when you can make *empires*?

Also, there any feats that reduce how long skills take? I'm asking.... for a friend.

[Estradus]

Right, forgot you were looking at applying it to a level 0 spell. Gruftzwerg is right: heighten it to level 1, then chain and Moil it, and the damage will be halved by the DC unaffected. This does make it cost 25 gp/casting, and the time it takes to prep the 25 gp bone-rune. Also, a level 4 spell slot, before mitigation.

Ah, its based on spell level? Missed that.

Though, I do ignore spell components on necromancy spells - can i ignore the spell component through that and then say, moil chain cause fear or moil chain blindness?

[Segev]

Ah, its based on spell level? Missed that.

Though, I do ignore spell components on necromancy spells - can i ignore the spell component through that and then say, moil chain cause fear or moil chain blindness?

Can you ignore ALL spell components, or just inexpensive ones? IS there a cap?

It's questionable whether you can ignore a component that is part of making the metamagic apply; you'll have to talk to your DM.

[Oberron]

hmmm... on one hand, those increase hd for the purposes of control level - on the other hand, if I make masterwork skeletons (4hd and 18 base str, hollowfaust: city of necromancers) and combine the necromancer's ring with the animators band (you can wear both rings as 1 ring slot, relics and rituals 2 and hollowfaust respectively) i can "control any superior or mwk skeleton .. as if it had 1 hd."

I don't want to invest in too many "multiple sources of the same thing" though, so heightened str and heightened agility are out - corpsecrafting and dread necro empowerment have that covered, but the feat one is interesting and different, i'll definitely play around with that and see what happens - can even put your minions to practical use instead of just combat boosts if you want to.

The ravenloft undead focused expansion (van richtens guide to the walking dead) has a skill called reign undead (cha), that, among its animal handling but for mindless undead, lets you "train" mindless undead in complex tasks (and simple, but noone cares about that). It takes 2 months (3 hours per day) and a dc 25 skill check to train a number of undead equal to your int *score*, but it gives them a modifier to any profession sub-skill equal to 1/2 your reign undead skill modifier. Sure, it wastes 2 months, but then you've got 22 mindless zombies out there mining with +20 profession miner bonuses, or +20 profession construction worker paving your roads or building your towers. Why make war... when you can make *empires*?

Also, there any feats that reduce how long skills take? I'm asking.... for a friend.

Why not just give the undead skill focus feat and then give them an item of skill enchancement from artificer infusion (slap on fell energy for even higher bonuses and it has no cap). No need for the two months downtime.


Edit:corpsecrafting and dread necromancer's empower won't stack since they are both enchancement bonus to str and dex

[Estradus]

Why not just give the undead skill focus feat and then give them an item of skill enchancement from artificer infusion (slap on fell energy for even higher bonuses and it has no cap). No need for the two months downtime.


Edit:corpsecrafting and dread necromancer's empower won't stack since they are both enchancement bonus to str and dex

Well, that rulebook is based off of 3.0 mechanics, and the terminology is almost identical as in handle animal. In 3.0 teaching animals a skill took 2 months, in 3.5 it takes 1 week. Ergo, it could reasonably be argued that in modern parlaince the reign undead skill would only require 1 week of downtime. Plus, I can have as many trained skeletons as I can control, but I'm going to run out of spell slots for skill enhancement. Also, I don't have have artificer encantments. Even if I did, don't those target the gear, not the undead? I'm not sure if fell energy applies here.

[Troacctid]

Slimy Spell seems like it would be very good with the sort of single-target spells you're using.

[Oberron]

Well, that rulebook is based off of 3.0 mechanics, and the terminology is almost identical as in handle animal. In 3.0 teaching animals a skill took 2 months, in 3.5 it takes 1 week. Ergo, it could reasonably be argued that in modern parlaince the reign undead skill would only require 1 week of downtime. Plus, I can have as many trained skeletons as I can control, but I'm going to run out of spell slots for skill enhancement. Also, I don't have have artificer encantments. Even if I did, don't those target the gear, not the undead? I'm not sure if fell energy applies here.

Fell energy doesn't care what the spell targets only if an undead is getting a bonus from it.

A single dip into tainted sorcerer fixes any spell problems. (Along with either a ritual to gain. Evil subtype or become undead yourself)


As for artificer infusions, since you're buying abilities anyway you might as well make your own spell for your wizard book that does the same thing but a lvl higher.

[Segev]

Well, that rulebook is based off of 3.0 mechanics, and the terminology is almost identical as in handle animal. In 3.0 teaching animals a skill took 2 months, in 3.5 it takes 1 week. Ergo, it could reasonably be argued that in modern parlaince the reign undead skill would only require 1 week of downtime. Plus, I can have as many trained skeletons as I can control, but I'm going to run out of spell slots for skill enhancement. Also, I don't have have artificer encantments. Even if I did, don't those target the gear, not the undead? I'm not sure if fell energy applies here.


Fell energy doesn't care what the spell targets only if an undead is getting a bonus from it.

A single dip into tainted sorcerer fixes any spell problems. (Along with either a ritual to gain. Evil subtype or become undead yourself)


As for artificer infusions, since you're buying abilities anyway you might as well make your own spell for your wizard book that does the same thing but a lvl higher.

I'm not going to argue the case for or against, here, but Oberron has an extremely favorable-to-the-necromancer reading of the Fell Energy feat. I do not agree with his assessment in all cases. You're going to want to discuss it with your DM for practical use. He may be just fine with fell energy magic weapon and fell energy greater magic weapon applying the extra +2 to attacks made by undead with the enchanted weapons, or he may not.

[Estradus]

Can you ignore ALL spell components, or just inexpensive ones? IS there a cap?

It's questionable whether you can ignore a component that is part of making the metamagic apply; you'll have to talk to your DM.

As stated in OP, I ignore expensive spell components for necromancy spells - though only when using my casting focus. You are right though, ignoring this bonus component does seems like an abuse. Plus, having a bag full of runed bones sounds like fun.


Slimy Spell seems like it would be very good with the sort of single-target spells you're using.

Its interesting, but it seems ineffective. Only being able to nauseate 1 target for 1 round seems like poor crowd control - which is a shame, it could have been kind of fun to slimerify everyone.


Fell energy doesn't care what the spell targets only if an undead is getting a bonus from it.

A single dip into tainted sorcerer fixes any spell problems. (Along with either a ritual to gain. Evil subtype or become undead yourself)

As for artificer infusions, since you're buying abilities anyway you might as well make your own spell for your wizard book that does the same thing but a lvl higher.

I disagree with this interpretation of fell energy, but its not a big deal. I have plenty of weird 3rd party spells to work with in place of artificer infusions.

I would appreciate elaborating on this tainted sorcerer dip - which spell problems? Do you mean the Spell Components? I do have a couple of other ways around that as well, but I'll keep the option on the table.


I'm not going to argue the case for or against, here, but Oberron has an extremely favorable-to-the-necromancer reading of the Fell Energy feat. I do not agree with his assessment in all cases. You're going to want to discuss it with your DM for practical use. He may be just fine with fell energy magic weapon and fell energy greater magic weapon applying the extra +2 to attacks made by undead with the enchanted weapons, or he may not.

Yeah, I did get that impression reading through his forum post. :P I've had experience with like, abjurant champion / ability enhancer / qedeshot's kiss before so I've got some ideas built in on the mechanics of this feat? Regardless of if my interpretation is correct. Though even if I can't use Fell Energy Magic Weapon, I can totally use Fell Energy Magic Fang.

Edit: Theoretically if I used one of the many "graft swords to your skeletons" mechanics then fell energy magic weapon would totally be targeting an undead, that would allow you to sidestep the entire problem.

[Oberron]

I would appreciate elaborating on this tainted sorcerer dip - which spell problems? Do you mean the Spell Components? I do have a couple of other ways around that as well, but I'll keep the option on the table.



Yeah, I did get that impression reading through his forum post. :P I've had experience with like, abjurant champion / ability enhancer / qedeshot's kiss before so I've got some ideas built in on the mechanics of this feat? Regardless of if my interpretation is correct. Though even if I can't use Fell Energy Magic Weapon, I can totally use Fell Energy Magic Fang.

Edit: Theoretically if I used one of the many "graft swords to your skeletons" mechanics then fell energy magic weapon would totally be targeting an undead, that would allow you to sidestep the entire problem.

Use it or not it's your character. But I would like to hear your reasoning https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?587007-Rules-discussion-on-Fell-Energy-Spell-Do-bonuses-on-items-affect-wielders&p=23880361#post23880361. If you don't mind. So far no one has been able to make a consistent counter argument to why it wouldn't work but that's not the topic here.

As for spell problem I mean having enough spells. Tainted sorcerer changes all your spells to run off taint instead of your primary casting stat including bonus spells. You gain taint each time you cast a spell (with a DC to negative it if you want). It also provides tainted metamagic and other very powerful abilities for a single dip. If you don't go the cheese route of being undead or having [evil] added to you you will have to worry about to much taint eventually.

Also magic fang can only be used on living creatures unless one of your other 3rd party stuff side steps that.

[Segev]

As stated in OP, I ignore expensive spell components for necromancy spells - though only when using my casting focus. You are right though, ignoring this bonus component does seems like an abuse. Plus, having a bag full of runed bones sounds like fun.Using magic items as a template, including enough gp cost to cast a spell 50 or 100 times with an expensive component arguably could make a magic item that acts as a focus that replaces that particular component. But that's definitely reading into the rules and homebrewing. The casting focus overriding the need for these runes is questionable, but that doesn't mean it's not valid. It just means you should talk to your DM to be sure.

I agree that the rune bag sounds cool, but it WILL get expensive.



Yeah, I did get that impression reading through his forum post. :P I've had experience with like, abjurant champion / ability enhancer / qedeshot's kiss before so I've got some ideas built in on the mechanics of this feat? Regardless of if my interpretation is correct. Though even if I can't use Fell Energy Magic Weapon, I can totally use Fell Energy Magic Fang.

Edit: Theoretically if I used one of the many "graft swords to your skeletons" mechanics then fell energy magic weapon would totally be targeting an undead, that would allow you to sidestep the entire problem.
Sadly, magic fang requires a living target. Though researching a variant for use on skeletons should be well within a necromancer wizard's purview!

What mechanics are these for grafting swords onto skeletons? I'm not familiar, and they sound intriguing. (I prefer bows for my skeletons, though, due to their enhanced dex.)


Use it or not it's your character. But I would like to hear your reasoning https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?587007-Rules-discussion-on-Fell-Energy-Spell-Do-bonuses-on-items-affect-wielders&p=23880361#post23880361. If you don't mind. So far no one has been able to make a consistent counter argument to why it wouldn't work but that's not the topic here.I am a little insulted; I think I gave a perfectly good counterargument. I do also see where you're coming from, though, which is why I rate it "questionable," rather than just saying it doesn't work. "Questionable" means "talk to your DM to see how he chooses to interpret it," not "DMs would have to be tricked, or house rule it, to make it work that way."


As for spell problem I mean having enough spells. Tainted sorcerer changes all your spells to run off taint instead of your primary casting stat including bonus spells. You gain taint each time you cast a spell (with a DC to negative it if you want). It also provides tainted metamagic and other very powerful abilities for a single dip. If you don't go the cheese route of being undead or having [evil] added to you you will have to worry about to much taint eventually.Tainted Sorcerer strikes me as badly written because it's either unplayable because the taint piles on so fast that you lose the character in a few sessions, or it's horribly broken because the taint piles on so fast that your DCs are unbeatable and you never have to worry about downsides.


Also magic fang can only be used on living creatures unless one of your other 3rd party stuff side steps that.If he's got 3pp stuff to bypass it, or better yet PF or 3.5 first-party stuff, I'm interested to hear about it. I do think a spell he researches that is "greater magic fang, but for my undead minions" would be doable, though.

[Oberron]

I am a little insulted; I think I gave a perfectly good counterargument. I do also see where you're coming from, though, which is why I rate it "questionable," rather than just saying it doesn't work. "Questionable" means "talk to your DM to see how he chooses to interpret it," not "DMs would have to be tricked, or house rule it, to make it work that way."

Tainted Sorcerer strikes me as badly written because it's either unplayable because the taint piles on so fast that you lose the character in a few sessions, or it's horribly broken because the taint piles on so fast that your DCs are unbeatable and you never have to worry about downsides.

If he's got 3pp stuff to bypass it, or better yet PF or 3.5 first-party stuff, I'm interested to hear about it. I do think a spell he researches that is "greater magic fang, but for my undead minions" would be doable, though.

No offense ment. I do have some questions but I'll pm you about it.

As for tainted sorcerer. Yes on both counts. It takes a little longer unless you are using all your spells. But it is prime cheese for easy DC boost, and arbitrary number of spells.

[Troacctid]

Its interesting, but it seems ineffective. Only being able to nauseate 1 target for 1 round seems like poor crowd control - which is a shame, it could have been kind of fun to slimerify everyone.
If you're already using a lot of single-target spells, though, it works great. Keep in mind that nausea is very similar to dazing: it's extremely difficult to be immune to, and it basically forces you to skip a whole turn. So it is quite potent.

[Estradus]

Okay seems like theres a whole lot going on here now...

Since a lot of people mentioned it I'm not going to add this to quotesd text: didn't realize magic fang was living only. That sounds like propaganda spread by the druids and makes me wonder why its on the Death Master's spell list. Given that it is on said spell list and most likely intended to be used on my undead what with their natural weapons all up in everyones buisiness, I can probably just convince my DM to give me a pass on that.


Use it or not it's your character. But I would like to hear your reasoning https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?587007-Rules-discussion-on-Fell-Energy-Spell-Do-bonuses-on-items-affect-wielders&p=23880361#post23880361. If you don't mind. So far no one has been able to make a consistent counter argument to why it wouldn't work but that's not the topic here.

As for spell problem I mean having enough spells. Tainted sorcerer changes all your spells to run off taint instead of your primary casting stat including bonus spells. You gain taint each time you cast a spell (with a DC to negative it if you want). It also provides tainted metamagic and other very powerful abilities for a single dip. If you don't go the cheese route of being undead or having [evil] added to you you will have to worry about to much taint eventually.

Okay, so my thoughts on the Fell energy stuff... (Ironically, I dont want to be the one to necro an old thread!)

Technically, just looking at just the totals on a stat sheet, the skeleton's numbers are effected by magic weapon, but the effect is on the weapon, not the skeleton. By my understanding of spell targeting, what a spell "affects" is the targets of the spell or the area it covers. When Fell Energy gives a +2 bonus, it is to what the spell effects. Bulls strength effects a creature to be stronger, magic weapon effects a weapon to be magickier. Sure, an undead may be using the weapon, but the effect is on the weapon, not the undead. The undead's stats are not modified by magic weapon - the weapon's stats are. The weapons stats effect the skeletons damage and to hit, but theres a middleman in the form of a sword. Like, the effect of burning hands is xd4 fire damage in a 15 foot cone, the house burning down afterwards is just physics.

... While I'm at it, I also have qualms with your multiplying of the bonus for spells with scaling effects on your forum post as well. Fell Energy: "any numerical bonus granted by the spell is increased by +2." the numerical bonus granted by shield of faith is 2+1/6 cl - so the bonus granted by the spell at level 1 is +2, the numerical bonus granted by the spell at level 18 is +5. This is what I would read to be the "Numerical bonus of the spell. You've probably heard all this before and if your dm lets you, thats great, you just requested my understanding of it.

As for tainted sorcerer, I have lore reasons for not wanting to go [evil] or undead with this character, so I'll probably wind up passing on that. In short: the character isn't evil. Its Eberron, baby! Using evil tools dont make an evil person, but a ritual to get the evil subtype would make the character actually evil. And being undead would snuff out the spark of divinity (blood of vol stuff). Also, I've never seen a pc play a necromancer whos actually not undead, so mostly its a gimmick thing to see what happens at this point.


What mechanics are these for grafting swords onto skeletons? I'm not familiar, and they sound intriguing. (I prefer bows for my skeletons, though, due to their enhanced dex.)

If he's got 3pp stuff to bypass it, or better yet PF or 3.5 first-party stuff, I'm interested to hear about it. I do think a spell he researches that is "greater magic fang, but for my undead minions" would be doable, though.

Off the top of my head, the Legends and Lairs book "Monsters Handbook" has lots of great upgrades for undead that necromancers can use, including a system called necromantic modifications. It has to be done before animating, but basically with a heal check you can splice in (or attach, if its a skeleton) more parts, like extra limbs, extra heads, built in weapons or armor plating - the ones that add more bones do increase their hit dice.

The book also features the Relentless Undead template that can be added when animating or creating an undead at the cost of more onyx and gives fast healing, bonus hd, removable limbs that can then sneak around, and free ranks in bluff to play dead with!

Van Richten's guide to the walking dead has special bone weapons that fuse to undead's hands and use the weapons stats to replace those of one of their natural attacks? Theres probably more, but by the time you have an army its almost trivial to afford to equip them with basic weaponry though, so going for spending time grafting them to your skeletons hands or fusing sharpened giant's ribs to them seems like a waste of effort and giant ribs.


If you're already using a lot of single-target spells, though, it works great. Keep in mind that nausea is very similar to dazing: it's extremely difficult to be immune to, and it basically forces you to skip a whole turn. So it is quite potent.

I sort of am looking at those spells? But mostly in the context of exploring what i can chain. I'll keep it in mind though, there are probably situations where i'll need to stunlock a person.

[Segev]

While I'm at it, I also have qualms with your multiplying of the bonus for spells with scaling effects on your forum post as well. Fell Energy: "any numerical bonus granted by the spell is increased by +2." the numerical bonus granted by shield of faith is 2+1/6 cl - so the bonus granted by the spell at level 1 is +2, the numerical bonus granted by the spell at level 18 is +5. This is what I would read to be the "Numerical bonus of the spell. You've probably heard all this before and if your dm lets you, thats great, you just requested my understanding of it.
Yeah, that's another point I disagree with Oberron on. I see the logic he's using, but I disagree with some of his assumptions. The way I'd run it is as Fell Energy GMW making the lowest-CL version give +3 (if you can GET it cast at that level), and the highest-CL version be a +7. I think +7 to hit and damage on multiple undead soldiers is still pretty good and worth +1 spell level. Or 1 level of mitigation, whichever.



Off the top of my head, the Legends and Lairs book "Monsters Handbook" has lots of great upgrades for undead that necromancers can use, including a system called necromantic modifications. It has to be done before animating, but basically with a heal check you can splice in (or attach, if its a skeleton) more parts, like extra limbs, extra heads, built in weapons or armor plating - the ones that add more bones do increase their hit dice.

The book also features the Relentless Undead template that can be added when animating or creating an undead at the cost of more onyx and gives fast healing, bonus hd, removable limbs that can then sneak around, and free ranks in bluff to play dead with!

Van Richten's guide to the walking dead has special bone weapons that fuse to undead's hands and use the weapons stats to replace those of one of their natural attacks? Theres probably more, but by the time you have an army its almost trivial to afford to equip them with basic weaponry though, so going for spending time grafting them to your skeletons hands or fusing sharpened giant's ribs to them seems like a waste of effort and giant ribs.



I sort of am looking at those spells? But mostly in the context of exploring what i can chain. I'll keep it in mind though, there are probably situations where i'll need to stunlock a person.

Interesting. I think I prefer PF's bloody skeletons, but relentless is pretty interesting. I may have to hunt down those books.

[Estradus]

Yeah, that's another point I disagree with Oberron on. I see the logic he's using, but I disagree with some of his assumptions. The way I'd run it is as Fell Energy GMW making the lowest-CL version give +3 (if you can GET it cast at that level), and the highest-CL version be a +7. I think +7 to hit and damage on multiple undead soldiers is still pretty good and worth +1 spell level. Or 1 level of mitigation, whichever.




Interesting. I think I prefer PF's bloody skeletons, but relentless is pretty interesting. I may have to hunt down those books.

I never got into Pathfinder, what are these bloody skeletons and are there any other valuable secrets to utilize?

My go-to last time i made a necromancer was Mwk Skeletons with +4 arms, +4 legs, +2 skulls (more all packed on than bajillion limbed multiattack mess for simplicity) with the relentless template, they had 12 total hit dice, +15ft move speed, could use large weapons 1 handed and still apply 1.5 str as though two-handed because their hands were technically 3 hands, and they could be controlled as though they were 1 hd each because of the necromancers ring + animators band.

I try to keep my 3rd party resources divided between reliable publishers and unreliable, and these are technically in my reliable folder - though I don't imagine these were intended to be combined like this.

[Oberron]

Okay, so my thoughts on the Fell energy stuff... (Ironically, I dont want to be the one to necro an old thread!)

Technically, just looking at just the totals on a stat sheet, the skeleton's numbers are effected by magic weapon, but the effect is on the weapon, not the skeleton. By my understanding of spell targeting, what a spell "affects" is the targets of the spell or the area it covers. When Fell Energy gives a +2 bonus, it is to what the spell effects. Bulls strength effects a creature to be stronger, magic weapon effects a weapon to be magickier. Sure, an undead may be using the weapon, but the effect is on the weapon, not the undead. The undead's stats are not modified by magic weapon - the weapon's stats are. The weapons stats effect the skeletons damage and to hit, but theres a middleman in the form of a sword. Like, the effect of burning hands is xd4 fire damage in a 15 foot cone, the house burning down afterwards is just physics.

... While I'm at it, I also have qualms with your multiplying of the bonus for spells with scaling effects on your forum post as well. Fell Energy: "any numerical bonus granted by the spell is increased by +2." the numerical bonus granted by shield of faith is 2+1/6 cl - so the bonus granted by the spell at level 1 is +2, the numerical bonus granted by the spell at level 18 is +5. This is what I would read to be the "Numerical bonus of the spell. You've probably heard all this before and if your dm lets you, thats great, you just requested my understanding of it.

mechanically the undead wielding the weapon does has its stats affected. the bonus from magic weapon applies to the attacker's to-hit roll and damage roll. There are plenty of spells that target something else but affects other things,. A bonus given to a creature directly (bull's strength in your example) or indirectly (magic weapon, desecrate, magic circle) is still giving that bonus to the creature. Even if you want to try to use fluff it still works just from the description of fell energy "You add a dose of raw necromantic energy to your beneficial spell, making it especially effective for undead creatures." It makes the spell more effective for undead. says nothing about the undead has to be the target of it, same for the rules text of it. Any metamagic feat that needs the spell to target to work very specificly says so. Fell energy does not have such wording and goes out of its way by using affect instead of effect or target.

As for the multiplying of the bonus i'm just using the same logic people have used with it and desecrate for +3 bonus hp/HD which no one seems to have a problem with even though it doesn't target undead (it targets an area) either. Even Segev thinks a fell desecrate adds +3/HD or +6/hd if an alter is nearby (unless that view point has been changed then my mistake for putting words in their mouth).

We can even look at another feat from the same source(dragon compendium) that does a similar thing but is very differently worded "Ability enchancer" "Your helpful transmutation spells aid you more than normal.
Any transmutation spell you cast that enhances ability scores increases the ability scores by +2 more than it normally does. For example, casting bull's strength with this feat grants the subject a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, instead of the usual +4 enhancement bonus."

Because the fluff description says that it "aids you more than normal" does that mean it only works on transmutation spells you cast on yourself? Does it not work on spells that target an area but buffs people inside the area?


Yeah, that's another point I disagree with Oberron on. I see the logic he's using, but I disagree with some of his assumptions. The way I'd run it is as Fell Energy GMW making the lowest-CL version give +3 (if you can GET it cast at that level), and the highest-CL version be a +7. I think +7 to hit and damage on multiple undead soldiers is still pretty good and worth +1 spell level. Or 1 level of mitigation, whichever.

As for the multiplying of the bonus i'm just using the same logic people have used with it and desecrate for +3 bonus hp/HD which no one seems to have a problem with even though it doesn't target undead (it targets an area) either. Even you think a fell desecrate adds +3/HD or +6/hd if an alter is nearby but said that its different somehow but didn't show any rules to really support it(unless that view point has been changed then my mistake for putting words in your mouth).


Edit to stay on topic: the varients from book of bad latin has some good options too. I'm a fan of the solider skeleton for range. have a mixture of large and medium zombies in checker board pattern

XX
XX= 1 large zombie
m= medium zombie

mmXXmmXXmm
mmXXmmXXmm
XXmmXXmmXX
XXmmXXmmXX
mmXXmmXXmm
mmXXmmXXmm

this gives the large zombies up to +11 to-hit and AC and the medium zombies up to +6 to-hit and AC (only 2 short from being surrounded by all medium) plus weapon focus for any weapon it uses and combat reflexes

[Estradus]

mechanically the undead wielding the weapon does has its stats affected. the bonus from magic weapon applies to the attacker's to-hit roll and damage roll. There are plenty of spells that target something else but affects other things,. A bonus given to a creature directly (bull's strength in your example) or indirectly (magic weapon, desecrate, magic circle) is still giving that bonus to the creature. Even if you want to try to use fluff it still works just from the description of fell energy "You add a dose of raw necromantic energy to your beneficial spell, making it especially effective for undead creatures." It makes the spell more effective for undead. says nothing about the undead has to be the target of it, same for the rules text of it. Any metamagic feat that needs the spell to target to work very specificly says so. Fell energy does not have such wording and goes out of its way by using affect instead of effect or target.

As for the multiplying of the bonus i'm just using the same logic people have used with it and desecrate for +3 bonus hp/HD which no one seems to have a problem with even though it doesn't target undead (it targets an area) either. Even Segev thinks a fell desecrate adds +3/HD or +6/hd if an alter is nearby (unless that view point has been changed then my mistake for putting words in their mouth).

We can even look at another feat from the same source(dragon compendium) that does a similar thing but is very differently worded "Ability enchancer" "Your helpful transmutation spells aid you more than normal.
Any transmutation spell you cast that enhances ability scores increases the ability scores by +2 more than it normally does. For example, casting bull's strength with this feat grants the subject a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, instead of the usual +4 enhancement bonus."

Because the fluff description says that it "aids you more than normal" does that mean it only works on transmutation spells you cast on yourself? Does it not work on spells that target an area but buffs people inside the area?



As for the multiplying of the bonus i'm just using the same logic people have used with it and desecrate for +3 bonus hp/HD which no one seems to have a problem with even though it doesn't target undead (it targets an area) either. Even you think a fell desecrate adds +3/HD or +6/hd if an alter is nearby but said that its different somehow but didn't show any rules to really support it(unless that view point has been changed then my mistake for putting words in your mouth).


Edit to stay on topic: the varients from book of bad latin has some good options too. I'm a fan of the solider skeleton for range. have a mixture of large and medium zombies in checker board pattern

XX
XX= 1 large zombie
m= medium zombie

mmXXmmXXmm
mmXXmmXXmm
XXmmXXmmXX
XXmmXXmmXX
mmXXmmXXmm
mmXXmmXXmm

this gives the large zombies up to +11 to-hit and AC and the medium zombies up to +6 to-hit and AC (only 2 short from being surrounded by all medium) plus weapon focus for any weapon it uses and combat reflexes

All those other examples (desecrate, magic circle, etc) say they have effects on the creatures inside it, not the objects - hence, the creature they affect is undead, and therefore benefits from fell energy. The comment re:ability enhancer is a culdesac and doesn't really do anything to the arguement. The phrase "undead creatures the spell affects" isn't fluff text, as you compared to in ability enhancer; its descriptive text, it is detailing what spells are eligible for the feat: spells that place an effect on creatures when those creatures are undead..

I personally dont feel 100% comfortable with using it with desecrate like that either, but I would at least accept it. It multiplies because its effectively working as a constitution score replacement for undead, and would further increase the hp based on said HD. The bonus is a "hit points per hd" bonus, which puts it into a bit of a grey zone, but it leans towards applicable. I usually wind up forgetting about desecrate entirely though.

For a minute I thought you had a 3rd party book I'd never heard of, and when I looked it up its apparently perfectly acceptable Latin and the people who decried it either don't know Latin or never read page 4 of the book. Does From the Books of the Dead actually include a way to make soldier skeletons? Because thats a neat arrangement but not sure if I can use it.

Incidentally, while we're on necromancy build stuff, here's some extra corpsecraft-esque feats from my sources
Magic and Mayhem: Undead Supremacy, requires spell focus necromancy for undead you make get +4 enchancement to dex and bonus HP as a construct
Theocracy of Canceri: Augment Animation. Prereq cl4, undead you create get +2 enh to str, toughness bonus feat, +1 luck bonus to ac, and cost +50% gp to raise
Encyclopedia Arcana: Necromancy: Augment Undead, undead you make get +1 hp/hd/ 3 caster levels, but i do file mongoose publishing on the sketchier side of things.
.... I remember multiple feats that gave your undead maximized hp/hd, but cannot find any of them now.
If you're undead yourself, there are good feats for undead pc's in the WoW horde guide, specifically:
Mind over Matter: Adds your cha modifier to your hit dice per hp, as you would con
Mental Stamina: Use cha in place of con wherever else it would be applicable (play a dashing, tireless, undead barbarian!)
Undead Soul: can get ressed and still come back as an undead

[Segev]

Bloody skeletons are one of the variants PF has for basic skeletons and zombies. They cost control cap as if they had twice as many HD. This is not a problem if using Command Undead to control them.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/skeleton-medium/skeleton-bloody/

As PF undead, they have d8 instead of d12 HD and get Cha to their hp. Converting back to d12 and no stat bonus is not too hard, though.

The big thing is the ability to pull themselves back together after being destroyed.

[Oberron]

All those other examples (desecrate, magic circle, etc) say they have effects on the creatures inside it, not the objects - hence, the creature they affect is undead, and therefore benefits from fell energy. The comment re:ability enhancer is a culdesac and doesn't really do anything to the arguement. The phrase "undead creatures the spell affects" isn't fluff text, as you compared to in ability enhancer; its descriptive text, it is detailing what spells are eligible for the feat: spells that place an effect on creatures when those creatures are undead..

Your argument is that the effect is coming from something else ,a "middle man", all those other examples are also middle men. First line of desecrate says that it is filling the area with magic not the creatures. Which is irrelevant because they are still gaining a bonus. Just like a skeleton would gain a bonus to hit and damage from a magic weapon.
I do agree with you on " it is detailing what spells are eligible for the feat: spells that place an effect on creatures when those creatures are undead.. " but none of that means that the undead has to be the target of the spell. Just like desecrate with a skeleton standing in it and just like magic weapon when used by a skeleton. Both are giving the undead a bonus to hit and damage through a middle man as you put it.


I personally dont feel 100% comfortable with using it with desecrate like that either, but I would at least accept it. It multiplies because its effectively working as a constitution score replacement for undead, and would further increase the hp based on said HD. The bonus is a "hit points per hd" bonus, which puts it into a bit of a grey zone, but it leans towards applicable. I usually wind up forgetting about desecrate entirely though.
Effectively working as a con score and actually being a con score are two different things even though the end result is. Your argument works the same exact way if you replace"hp" with "+1 to x" and "HD" with "caster level" both are giving a set bonus for each amount of something. There are however spells that specifically replaces what the bonus are given instead of "x per y" format and they specifically say as such in their description. There is no rule reason why it works for one case and not the other when both are doing the same thing.



For a minute I thought you had a 3rd party book I'd never heard of, and when I looked it up its apparently perfectly acceptable Latin and the people who decried it either don't know Latin or never read page 4 of the book. Does From the Books of the Dead actually include a way to make soldier skeletons? Because thats a neat arrangement but not sure if I can use it.

Incidentally, while we're on necromancy build stuff, here's some extra corpsecraft-esque feats from my sources
Magic and Mayhem: Undead Supremacy, requires spell focus necromancy for undead you make get +4 enchancement to dex and bonus HP as a construct
Theocracy of Canceri: Augment Animation. Prereq cl4, undead you create get +2 enh to str, toughness bonus feat, +1 luck bonus to ac, and cost +50% gp to raise
Encyclopedia Arcana: Necromancy: Augment Undead, undead you make get +1 hp/hd/ 3 caster levels, but i do file mongoose publishing on the sketchier side of things.
.... I remember multiple feats that gave your undead maximized hp/hd, but cannot find any of them now.
If you're undead yourself, there are good feats for undead pc's in the WoW horde guide, specifically:
Mind over Matter: Adds your cha modifier to your hit dice per hp, as you would con
Mental Stamina: Use cha in place of con wherever else it would be applicable (play a dashing, tireless, undead barbarian!)
Undead Soul: can get ressed and still come back as an undead

I legit couldn't remember it's real name just called it by its other name people use. As for a specific way to make varients? No I don't think it has a specific process to do so so it's up to do approval. But I do recall that pathfinder has ways of making varient undead by adding spells when casting animate dead. If you're able to use that it isn't much of a stretch to apply it backwards. Could also use grave born warrior to add on a teamwork feat to do the same and have undead squads.

Also careful with corpsecraft-esque feats because those are also listed as enchancement bonus meaning they do not stack with corpsecrafter or dreadnecromancer's buff. That is why I suggested the heightened str and agility because they are untyped and DO stack with corpsecrafter

[Estradus]

Imma just drop the fell energy thing because neither of us are getting anywhere with it.


I legit couldn't remember it's real name just called it by its other name people use. As for a specific way to make varients? No I don't think it has a specific process to do so so it's up to do approval. But I do recall that pathfinder has ways of making varient undead by adding spells when casting animate dead. If you're able to use that it isn't much of a stretch to apply it backwards. Could also use grave born warrior to add on a teamwork feat to do the same and have undead squads.

Also careful with corpsecraft-esque feats because those are also listed as enchancement bonus meaning they do not stack with corpsecrafter or dreadnecromancer's buff. That is why I suggested the heightened str and agility because they are untyped and DO stack with corpsecrafter

You did mention that about the boosts before and I didn't respond. When I was looking them all up i didn't realize how many were also enhancement bonuses, so, good to know. Further investigating those feats I found more necromancer classes and at least one more class ability I can file under things I can nab with Complete Control, so that worked out well.

I've seen that system for raising more unusual undead before and didnt like not having specified rules for it, in a lot of ways it seems a little too easy - no extra costs in the long run and all that. Did your dm ever specify what spell would go with creating soldier skeletons?

Edit: oops never mind, that class ability is completely worthless. Oh well.

[Oberron]

You did mention that about the boosts before and I didn't respond. When I was looking them all up i didn't realize how many were also enhancement bonuses, so, good to know. Further investigating those feats I found more necromancer classes and at least one more class ability I can file under things I can nab with Complete Control, so that worked out well.

I've seen that system for raising more unusual undead before and didnt like not having specified rules for it, in a lot of ways it seems a little too easy - no extra costs in the long run and all that. Did your dm ever specify what spell would go with creating soldier skeletons?

Edit: oops never mind, that class ability is completely worthless. Oh well.

Just making sure you saw so you didn't shoot your self in the foot.

My dm did an even simpler thing and just said I could use a higher lvl spell slot(1 higher per 1/2 cr the variant boost) to make varients, which worked pretty well since it slowed down how many I could raise like that

[Segev]

Imma just drop the fell energy thing because neither of us are getting anywhere with it.



You did mention that about the boosts before and I didn't respond. When I was looking them all up i didn't realize how many were also enhancement bonuses, so, good to know. Further investigating those feats I found more necromancer classes and at least one more class ability I can file under things I can nab with Complete Control, so that worked out well.

I've seen that system for raising more unusual undead before and didnt like not having specified rules for it, in a lot of ways it seems a little too easy - no extra costs in the long run and all that. Did your dm ever specify what spell would go with creating soldier skeletons?

Edit: oops never mind, that class ability is completely worthless. Oh well.

Generally speaking, Pathfinder's variant undead (that can be made by adding extra spells to the creation process) DO have a cost: the undead count as 2x as many HD for creation and control cap. So a 1 HD bloody skeleton counts as 2 HD worth of skeletons for creation and control.

It's just that command undead doesn't care about their number of HD. Still limits how many you can make at a time. Might also double the amount of black onyx you need.

[Estradus]

Just making sure you saw so you didn't shoot your self in the foot.

My dm did an even simpler thing and just said I could use a higher lvl spell slot(1 higher per 1/2 cr the variant boost) to make varients, which worked pretty well since it slowed down how many I could raise like that

I see, that's interesting. Does it cost any more control or onyx, or just the higher spell slot? Also, makes me glad I scored animate dead as a level 2 spell.

[Oberron]

I see, that's interesting. Does it cost any more control or onyx, or just the higher spell slot? Also, makes me glad I scored animate dead as a level 2 spell.

Just the higher spell slot because it does not add any hit dice and normally changes abilities the undead get. The reasoning for it was higher-level magic for specific variants.


Edit: going through a few of my own necromancers i've played i forgot about "improved animation" feat. from dragon mag 298.pre req:Spellcaster level 6th+, 5+ ranks in Knowledge (religion) Undead you create using animate dead or the create undead spells gain an additional Hit Die and a +1 competence bonus to attack and damage rolls. Note: Undead do not gain an increase in size due to the increased Hit Dice from this feat.

+1 hd will improve slam and other abilities that rely on HD and give the undead a little more padding in health (even chance for another feat from awaken undead) and a +1 to hit and damage is pretty much a bonus +2 str/dex

[Estradus]

Just the higher spell slot because it does not add any hit dice and normally changes abilities the undead get. The reasoning for it was higher-level magic for specific variants.


Edit: going through a few of my own necromancers i've played i forgot about "improved animation" feat. from dragon mag 298.pre req:Spellcaster level 6th+, 5+ ranks in Knowledge (religion) Undead you create using animate dead or the create undead spells gain an additional Hit Die and a +1 competence bonus to attack and damage rolls. Note: Undead do not gain an increase in size due to the increased Hit Dice from this feat.

+1 hd will improve slam and other abilities that rely on HD and give the undead a little more padding in health (even chance for another feat from awaken undead) and a +1 to hit and damage is pretty much a bonus +2 str/dex

Hmm, might try to tie that in with the mwk skeletons as well, the book says such skeletons are from the bones a cut above the rest but was a little vague on the how. File it under the likes of arcana evolved or 5e's heightened/diminished spell effects.

And thanks for finding that feat, thats great for my purposes.

[Segev]

Just the higher spell slot because it does not add any hit dice and normally changes abilities the undead get. The reasoning for it was higher-level magic for specific variants.


Edit: going through a few of my own necromancers i've played i forgot about "improved animation" feat. from dragon mag 298.pre req:Spellcaster level 6th+, 5+ ranks in Knowledge (religion) Undead you create using animate dead or the create undead spells gain an additional Hit Die and a +1 competence bonus to attack and damage rolls. Note: Undead do not gain an increase in size due to the increased Hit Dice from this feat.

+1 hd will improve slam and other abilities that rely on HD and give the undead a little more padding in health (even chance for another feat from awaken undead) and a +1 to hit and damage is pretty much a bonus +2 str/dex

That IS a nice feat. A little painful in that it makes them cost more control cap, too, BUT, we're using command undead to control our mindless minions, RIGHT?

[Estradus]

That IS a nice feat. A little painful in that it makes them cost more control cap, too, BUT, we're using command undead to control our mindless minions, RIGHT?

I mentioned somewhere above, but I have a type of skeleton I can make that only costs me 1 hd to control, regardless of its having more. Combine this with my control cap being enhanced by dread necro and death lord.... I should be fine for now.

[Segev]

I mentioned somewhere above, but I have a type of skeleton I can make that only costs me 1 hd to control, regardless of its having more. Combine this with my control cap being enhanced by dread necro and death lord.... I should be fine for now.

In the Spell Compendium is the undead lieutenant. Cast it on an intelligent undead you control, and it can command your undead minions as if it were you. You can still override it. The real benefit of this 24-hour duration spell is that it lets you command CL more undead while you have an undead lieutenant. That's its wording. I assume this means HD of undead. It also limits you to one undead lieutenant at a time. But still, nice boost to your control cap.

The other interesting use of this spell only works in 3.PF games, but would let you train your potential lieutenants to have the Charnal Soldiers (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/charnel-soldiers/) feat and one other teamwork feat you want your minions to all benefit from.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I've only skimmed the thread, so forgive me if this was already mentioned, but six levels of free metamagic on Necromancy spells just begs for Persistent consumptive field layered over a Persistent greater consumptive field.

Horned Harbinger 2 lets you add your Charisma to CL for animate dead. Useful if you have two levels to spare.

Yathrinshee 1 lets you add all your caster levels together for Necromancy spells.

The Theurgic Specialist feat lets you add all your caster levels together for spells from one school.

The last two together arguably mean that you get to add all your caster levels together using Theurgic Specialist, then use that CL as input for the Yathrinshee calculation, with the potential maximum CL being [sum of CLs] * [number of casting classes] * 1.5 * 1.5 (for the two consumptive fields). In a 20th-level gestalt build, you could simply go wizard 20/[19 one-level casting dips]/yathrinshee 1 and get CL 1755, which should be enough for most purposes.

[Estradus]

I've only skimmed the thread, so forgive me if this was already mentioned, but six levels of free metamagic on Necromancy spells just begs for Persistent consumptive field layered over a Persistent greater consumptive field.

Horned Harbinger 2 lets you add your Charisma to CL for animate dead. Useful if you have two levels to spare.

Yathrinshee 1 lets you add all your caster levels together for Necromancy spells.

The Theurgic Specialist feat lets you add all your caster levels together for spells from one school.

The last two together arguably mean that you get to add all your caster levels together using Theurgic Specialist, then use that CL as input for the Yathrinshee calculation, with the potential maximum CL being [sum of CLs] * [number of casting classes] * 1.5 * 1.5 (for the two consumptive fields). In a 20th-level gestalt build, you could simply go wizard 20/[19 one-level casting dips]/yathrinshee 1 and get CL 1755, which should be enough for most purposes.

That first part sounds quite effective. I don't remember seeing that for horned harbringer but it sounds pretty effective! Even if i'm already getting a similar ability to that from Death Lord (magic of arcanis). Were I using conventional building mechanics, yathrinshee or theurgic specialist would be very effective - especially combined with some of those classes that increase cleric and wizard casting simultaniously (my build mechanics are a little weird right now so not so much RN). I'm not sure if any DM would let me get away with the last part, though. :P

Edit: Actually, Yahtrinshee is great. I was trying to find all the necromancer prestige classes and that one slipped by me, I always have trouble finding all the classes between the forgotten realms campaign setting books.