Feedback on Magic of Incarnum conversions to Pathfinder?

[EisenKreutzer]

I’ve been doing some conversions to Pathfinder 1e (Akashic Mysteries) of Magic of Incarnum content, and I was hoping to get some input and feedback on what I’ve done so far.

Incarnum races, azurin, duskling, rilkan, skarn. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-lMA5gTZ7e9KAh5WHiRAh5BUkqPK3s714CfeHyH1iWg)

The draconic soulmelds as akashic veils. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/13Sb8wT1s42H5V5CtR3Ohl96DtvazAZpzehVPBMQo0p4)

The incarnate class. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GZw9p81cS4kcLJEzjYb5Eu_OnfZKwIRnjaKlMXTZLSM) (This isn’t my work, in fact my contributions to this are limited to renaming some features and making it conform to Akashic Mysteries/City of 7 Seraphs content. Credit goes completely to user PsyBomb on Min/Max Boards).
EDIT: I have made some changes to the Incarnate, adding a paladin-style smite alignment ability that can be invested with essence, and changing around some of the wording on a few abilities to open them up a little and maybe increase their utility. I also gave the Incarnate a +3 essence cap at lvl 19 to match other akashic classes, as well as give 3/4 BAB, martial and heavy armor proficiency and a d8 HD to bring it closer to a paladin/cleric identity rather than a dedicated «caster» like the base 3.5 version is. With access to the Nexus’ veil list, this should allow my version of the Incarnate to shine on its own as a competent and versatile melee fighter while keeping the alignment-based focus that defines the class.
EDIT 2: I removed the chakra bind feats in favour of a fixed progression, and moved them up one level to conform to the design of veils. I added a new ability that grants teamwork feats and the ability to share them with allies within Akashic Radiance.
The necrocarnate prestige class. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1igfBv5cxBpW_ZAKhsfUfptBHvC5SjWwh/view?usp=drivesdk)

The Soul Manifester PrC from the MoI web enhancement, with veils and psionic powers. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/18KRz68bSi5joOWobxWqrHIQkMNB1zh3d/view?usp=drivesdk)

[Kris Moonhand]

Some feedback on Incarnate:

Why are you giving the Access X Chakra feats instead of just giving them normal binds? For classes like Lunar Zodiac that makes sense, since they only get two of each so they have to choose. But you're granting three, so it's the same as just giving the binds without the feats.

The expanded capacity seems a bit low for a half BAB, 30 Essence veilweaver. Sure, there's the Expanded Veil Capacity ability you get at 7th level, but that only applies to a single veil. Guru, Nexus, Radiant, Vizier, Zodiac, even classes like Helmsman and Stormbound get +3. I'd either make EVC apply to all veils (but only veils), or give them the +3.

I'd recommend either renaming the Rapid Veilweaving feature to Veilshifting (since it's very similar to that ability) or stating that it counts as veilshifting for the purposes of prerequisites, to interact better with the Rapid Shift (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Rapid_Shift) feat.

It doesn't really feel like there's enough differentiating the Incarnate from the Vizier. Which isn't your fault, obviously, since the Vizier was a port of the Incarnate anyway. You might want to move the Akashic Radiance ability to 1st level, add some extra stuff to it, or give them some other alignment focused abilities, to really cement the class identity as separate from the Vizier as a sort of akashic Paladin or Cleric kind of class.

I'll look at the dragon veils later, I've gotta go run a game right now, but those are my thoughts so far.

[EisenKreutzer]

Some feedback on Incarnate:

Why are you giving the Access X Chakra feats instead of just giving them normal binds? For classes like Lunar Zodiac that makes sense, since they only get two of each so they have to choose. But you're granting three, so it's the same as just giving the binds without the feats.

The expanded capacity seems a bit low for a half BAB, 30 Essence veilweaver. Sure, there's the Expanded Veil Capacity ability you get at 7th level, but that only applies to a single veil. Guru, Nexus, Radiant, Vizier, Zodiac, even classes like Helmsman and Stormbound get +3. I'd either make EVC apply to all veils (but only veils), or give them the +3.

I'd recommend either renaming the Rapid Veilweaving feature to Veilshifting (since it's very similar to that ability) or stating that it counts as veilshifting for the purposes of prerequisites, to interact better with the Rapid Shift (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Rapid_Shift) feat.

It doesn't really feel like there's enough differentiating the Incarnate from the Vizier. Which isn't your fault, obviously, since the Vizier was a port of the Incarnate anyway. You might want to move the Akashic Radiance ability to 1st level, add some extra stuff to it, or give them some other alignment focused abilities, to really cement the class identity as separate from the Vizier as a sort of akashic Paladin or Cleric kind of class.

I'll look at the dragon veils later, I've gotta go run a game right now, but those are my thoughts so far.

Very good questions! I did actually choose to keep the original conversions feat-based chakra unlocks rather than giving a fixed progression, because I thought it was a fun way to differentiate the incarnate from the vizier, and also because it gives the incarnate some choice in the sequence they unlock their chakra binds in. It might be clunky, but that was my one mechanical contribution to this conversion (a non-contribution, since I decided to keep the original design).
As for the other questions and suggestions, very good points. I will look at implementing some changes once I’ve had more time thinking things over.

[Psyren]

Personally I would take an approach similar to Pactmaker vs. Binder - port over the specific powers (i.e. convert soulmelds into veils of the same level/bind, similar to converting vestiges into spirits of the same level), but don't bother converting the weaker classes when the stronger ones already exist. (i.e. don't bother converting the Binder, Incarnate or Soulborn - just use the Pactmaker, Vizier and Daevic.)

If you want to use the names and/or capture a specific flavor quirk that was present in the old expressions of a class but not the new, like "Totemist" and its focus on emulating magical beasts, an archetype is a good way to do that.

[Kris Moonhand]

The variable bind unlock thing is an interesting idea, but it really skews the balance of the binds. You get the feats a lot earlier than you would normally, allowing you to access certain binds way ahead of schedule (notably, Head bind at 1st instead of 6th, Shoulder bind at 7th instead of 10th, and Headband bind at 7th instead of 12th for most classes). If you're interested, I made this thing a while back to track what classes get which binds when:
Anything that says D12 means the Daevic doesn't normally get it, but can use its Blood bind for that unlock. Likewise, H12 means that the Helmsman can utilize the normally unavailable unlock as part of their Turboboost ability. Class-specific binds (Blood, Interface, Ring, and Storm) are not listed, since they only apply to that class.
Chakra Bind (Belt): [D13, E18, G17, H12 L14/16, N16, R15, S14, V16]
Chakra Bind (Body): [D12, G20, H20, L20, N20, R18, S20, V20]
Chakra Bind (Chest): [D19, H12, N18, S18, V18]
Chakra Bind (Feet): [D2, E6, G5, H5, L4/6, N4, S2, V4]
Chakra Bind (Hands): [D4, E3, G2, H2, L4/6, N2, R3, S4, V2]
Chakra Bind (Head): [D12, E9, G8, H12 L4/6, N6, R6, S6, V6]
Chakra Bind (Headband): [D12, G11, H14, L10/12, N12, R9, S12, V12]
Chakra Bind (Neck): [D12, G14, H17, L14/16, N14, R12, S16, V14]
Chakra Bind (Shoulder): [D10, E15, H11, L10/12, N10, S10, V10]
Chakra Bind (Wrist): [D7, E12, H8, L10/12, N8, S8, V8]
Also, you might want to move the Chest and Body unlocks up one level, cuz right now it goes every odd level, then switches to even for the last two. Just feels weird. I would actually recommend making them start at 2nd instead of 1st, to avoid dipping for binds and also because no other class grants a bind at 1st and that's probably on purpose.

The first thing I'm noticing about the dragon veils is that a lot of them have blood bind abilities, but aren't specifically blood veils. I think that is an interesting design, something that any class can use but only a Daevic can unlock the full power of the dragon.

That said, I do have some issues with a few of them. If I don't mention something, just assume I found it alright.

Claws of the Wyrm is very lackluster compared to other claw veils. Instead of anything to stand out, it's only damage and a small crit threat boost. I don't see myself shaping it over Wrathful Claws (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Wrathful_Claws) or Talons of the Roil (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Talons_of_the_Roil).

The Shoulder bind for Draconic Mantle gives DR/Magic, but at the level most classes get shoulder binds, just about every enemy will be able to overcome it. The Blood bind for it also never grants true flight at higher essence, you always have to land.

The deflection bonus of the Lammasu Mantle seems rather high for something you can get at 1st level. I'd make it 1+1/E, personally. That said, its effects are very similar to the already existent Crinere of Warding (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Criniere_of_Warding).

The Sphinx Claws veil feels even worse than the Claws of the Wyrm. Yeah, you can get a pounce at level 4, but the veil doesn't grant claws unless you bind it to Blood (which is, in my opinion, a terrible use of your Blood slot, compared to even some of the other stuff you present, not even when looking at the regular Blood veils). And since the pounce is a Hand bind, you can't shape another claw veil in your Hand slot, so it's interfering with things it's trying to synergize with unless you take Twinveil. Protip: Never make players have to take a feat (or buy an item) to properly use something their class gives them for free. That's bad design, and also players hate that.

Now, about the updated Incarnate.

I like the increase to d8 and martial/heavy prof. Might want to also make it 3/4 BAB as well, to go along with that.

I may have missed it earlier, but I'm not sure how much of a fan I am of making it so you can only shape veils from one alignment. I'd have to check them, but I feel like you're probably cutting out a fair few veils with that. Might want to make it more like Cleric, where you are only barred from shaping veils with an opposing alignment, instead of those with a non-matching one. Again, that depends on how many veils are actually aligned. I don't have a pie chart on me.

I like the smite. It's simple, but gets the idea across very easily that this class is the alignment guy. I also like the change to Expanded Receptacles.

[EisenKreutzer]

The variable bind unlock thing is an interesting idea, but it really skews the balance of the binds. You get the feats a lot earlier than you would normally, allowing you to access certain binds way ahead of schedule (notably, Head bind at 1st instead of 6th, Shoulder bind at 7th instead of 10th, and Headband bind at 7th instead of 12th for most classes). If you're interested, I made this thing a while back to track what classes get which binds when:
Anything that says D12 means the Daevic doesn't normally get it, but can use its Blood bind for that unlock. Likewise, H12 means that the Helmsman can utilize the normally unavailable unlock as part of their Turboboost ability. Class-specific binds (Blood, Interface, Ring, and Storm) are not listed, since they only apply to that class.
Chakra Bind (Belt): [D13, E18, G17, H12 L14/16, N16, R15, S14, V16]
Chakra Bind (Body): [D12, G20, H20, L20, N20, R18, S20, V20]
Chakra Bind (Chest): [D19, H12, N18, S18, V18]
Chakra Bind (Feet): [D2, E6, G5, H5, L4/6, N4, S2, V4]
Chakra Bind (Hands): [D4, E3, G2, H2, L4/6, N2, R3, S4, V2]
Chakra Bind (Head): [D12, E9, G8, H12 L4/6, N6, R6, S6, V6]
Chakra Bind (Headband): [D12, G11, H14, L10/12, N12, R9, S12, V12]
Chakra Bind (Neck): [D12, G14, H17, L14/16, N14, R12, S16, V14]
Chakra Bind (Shoulder): [D10, E15, H11, L10/12, N10, S10, V10]
Chakra Bind (Wrist): [D7, E12, H8, L10/12, N8, S8, V8]
Also, you might want to move the Chest and Body unlocks up one level, cuz right now it goes every odd level, then switches to even for the last two. Just feels weird. I would actually recommend making them start at 2nd instead of 1st, to avoid dipping for binds and also because no other class grants a bind at 1st and that's probably on purpose.

The first thing I'm noticing about the dragon veils is that a lot of them have blood bind abilities, but aren't specifically blood veils. I think that is an interesting design, something that any class can use but only a Daevic can unlock the full power of the dragon.

That said, I do have some issues with a few of them. If I don't mention something, just assume I found it alright.

Claws of the Wyrm is very lackluster compared to other claw veils. Instead of anything to stand out, it's only damage and a small crit threat boost. I don't see myself shaping it over Wrathful Claws (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Wrathful_Claws) or Talons of the Roil (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Talons_of_the_Roil).

The Shoulder bind for Draconic Mantle gives DR/Magic, but at the level most classes get shoulder binds, just about every enemy will be able to overcome it. The Blood bind for it also never grants true flight at higher essence, you always have to land.

The deflection bonus of the Lammasu Mantle seems rather high for something you can get at 1st level. I'd make it 1+1/E, personally. That said, its effects are very similar to the already existent Crinere of Warding (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Criniere_of_Warding).

The Sphinx Claws veil feels even worse than the Claws of the Wyrm. Yeah, you can get a pounce at level 4, but the veil doesn't grant claws unless you bind it to Blood (which is, in my opinion, a terrible use of your Blood slot, compared to even some of the other stuff you present, not even when looking at the regular Blood veils). And since the pounce is a Hand bind, you can't shape another claw veil in your Hand slot, so it's interfering with things it's trying to synergize with unless you take Twinveil. Protip: Never make players have to take a feat (or buy an item) to properly use something their class gives them for free. That's bad design, and also players hate that.

Now, about the updated Incarnate.

I like the increase to d8 and martial/heavy prof. Might want to also make it 3/4 BAB as well, to go along with that.

I may have missed it earlier, but I'm not sure how much of a fan I am of making it so you can only shape veils from one alignment. I'd have to check them, but I feel like you're probably cutting out a fair few veils with that. Might want to make it more like Cleric, where you are only barred from shaping veils with an opposing alignment, instead of those with a non-matching one. Again, that depends on how many veils are actually aligned. I don't have a pie chart on me.

I like the smite. It's simple, but gets the idea across very easily that this class is the alignment guy. I also like the change to Expanded Receptacles.

Solid advice across the board.
The variable binds might be a bad idea, since the veils are definitely balanced around specific levels. I’ll take a look at it.
I’ve been thinking about making the incarnate 3/4 BAB, actually, as the smite ability takes it more into a frontline role than the original 3.5 version.

As for the soulmelds to veils, I tried sticking as close to their original functions as possible. My plan is to go back over them again and retweak them once I’ve looked at more of the soulmelds and compared them to their veil counterparts in Akashic Mysteries. A lot of them are lackluster compared to veils, as WotC seem to have been really afraid of making them too powerful and in many vases ended up making them weak.

[Kris Moonhand]

By the way, is the "dragonblood subtype" that's a prerequisite for the dragon veils a new subtype you're introducing, or is it supposed the drakeblood subtype from DSP's Bloodforge line?

[EisenKreutzer]

By the way, is the "dragonblood subtype" that's a prerequisite for the dragon veils a new subtype you're introducing, or is it supposed the drakeblood subtype from DSP's Bloodforge line?

No, no, man. I think you are giving me WAY too much creative credit here. The draconic veils are all old 3.5 material, and I’ve done very little to most of them besides make them conform to Pathfinder. The dragonblood subtype first appeared in Races of the Dragon for 3.5, and those soulmelds are from the web enhancement to 3.5’s Dragon Magic.