Help Me Build A Combat Cleric

[Allistar]

So recently I was given the chance to play in a Pathfinder 1E game with a few buddies, and start at level two (one is a fire school wizard, one is a titan mauler barb, and the other is a swashbuckler). They didn't have a cleric or anyone particularly tanky, so I decided I'd try and fill both niches by playing some kind of a dwarven combat cleric. I've run this by the DM and he says it's fine, but I want to see what you all have to say about it and ask for advice on future levels and feats. Here's the build so far

Rolled Stats
STR-16
DEX-11
CON-17 (15+2)
INT-7
WIS-16 (14+2)
CHA-13 (15-2)

Traits & Drawback
Ancestral Weapon
Dwarven Weapon Trained
Zest For Battle
Pride

Levels
Fighter 1 -1st (for my 1st level feat I was going to go for shield focus, and take Shield Brace as my bonus feat)
Cleric 1 -2nd (domain wise I'm going healing and protection because they just seem good for my purposes)

Relevant Items
Stone Lamelar (+8 armor bonus)
Masterwork Heavy Steel Shield (+3 shield bonus)
Ancestral Weapon- Masterwork, Cold-Iron, Dwarven Giant Sticker (my polearm of choice)

I really like this for a 2nd level start. High AC, good HP, decent attacks, spells, etc, but I honestly don't know where to go with it from here. Next level I was going to go 1 more into fighter, take power attack and pick up a bonus feat, but I don't know what else I wanted to do. I don't know what all other feats are good for this style of play and I don't see any immediately relevant shield or polearm feats. Dunno, but I'm looking forward to hearing suggestions.

[Mystral]

Look into warpriest, it's better than alternating between fighter and cleric and gives you your buffs and heals as swift actions so you can spend more time bashing your enemies heads in.

Or.. knees, if you're playing a dwarf.

[Kurald Galain]

The issue with Shield Brace is that it gives you +3 to AC at the expense of -2 to hit... this is not a good tradeoff.

Overall I'm not seeing why you want a fighter level; since your party already has two warrior-types and lacks a divine caster, going full cleric would be better. Get proficiency from traits or feats as needed, or from the Devilbane Priest archetype.

HTH!

[Tira]

I think you'd probably be better off going with full cleric, or warpriest if you really want to be able to contribute more in combat. While the party isn't super tanky, it doesn't really need another melee combatant as much as someone who can support the other characters, and as a full divine caster you'll fill a more unique role. Plus, if you're that heavily armored, the enemies will just target your allies instead.

The Defense subdomain would be slightly better than Protection for your purposes, since it lets you give the entire party an AC buff. Healing is not a great domain, because you can already cast half the domain spells spontaneously and the domain abilities aren't that impressive. If you pick a Lawful Good deity (such as Torag), you can get Archon as a sub-domain of Law, which might be a better choice. Both of the domain abilities for it are really great support.

[upho]

Generally speaking, I agree with Kurald.

That said, with a focus on melee control via reach, AoOs and combat maneuvers (rather than damage and heavy armor) it's certainly possible to make also a melee "defender" cleric highly effective in this party. If you'd like to go with this focus rather than a more casting focused one, you typically want/need plenty of combat feats and a relatively high Dex for AoOs, and you'll consequently be better off as a human and assigning your rolled stats differently (which I assume is possible).

Note also that the typical D&D "meat shield with decent damage" type of tank isn't a particularly effective mechanical concept, overall as well as in terms of defending allies (and themselves). A more control focused "defender" type of tank can however be made a quite fantastic combatant in general and especially in a defender combat role.

If you're interested in this kind of build, I'll be happy to give you suggestions on build outlines and related options.

A few comments/recommendations on your current choices (these assume the you'll play this PC to at least 6th level):


Rolled Stats
STR-16
DEX-11
CON-17 (15+2)
INT-7
WIS-16 (14+2)
CHA-13 (15-2)If you're going for a tank, I suggest you prioritize Dex higher, preferably swapping your Cha and Dex scores (channel energy normally isn't worth investing in a high Cha, especially not for a MAD melee cleric).


Dwarven Weapon Trained
Zest For BattleBoth these grant trait bonuses to damage and thus won't stack. More importantly, as a tank you should generally give damage boosts a very low priority as your primary offensive tools should be control, not damage. I suggest you change these traits, perhaps for Reactionary and something which grants you Perception as a class skill.


Fighter 1As mentioned by Mystral, go with warpriest if you want to focus more on the melee side. It's almost universally a very bad idea to MC as a full caster.


-1st (for my 1st level feat I was going to go for shield focus, and take Shield Brace as my bonus feat)Shield Brace can be great once you can buy/craft/find a mithral shield to remove the attack penalty, but as Kurald mentioned it's really bad before then. I suggest you get Dirty Fighting and at 3rd either Improved Trip or Combat Reflexes instead.

[Allistar]

The issue with Shield Brace is that it gives you +3 to AC at the expense of -2 to hit... this is not a good tradeoff.

Overall I'm not seeing why you want a fighter level; since your party already has two warrior-types and lacks a divine caster, going full cleric would be better. Get proficiency from traits or feats as needed, or from the Devilbane Priest archetype.

HTH!

To explain my decisions, I'm taking fighter because it gives me heavy armor proficency and early bonus feats so that this early setup is less painful. Sure I lose out on a theoretical 9th level slot or two at 20, but I don't think we're ever going to get to that point.

Shield Foucs/Shield Brace- "The shield’s armor check penalty (if any) applies to attacks made with the weapon." masterwork reduces the ACP of the shield by 1 so it's a +3 AC for -1 to hit. And it imortantly lets me two hand a polearm, meaning bonus damage from power attack and high strength, as well as giving me reach to deny area



Generally speaking, I agree with Kurald.

That said, with a focus on melee control via reach, AoOs and combat maneuvers (rather than damage and heavy armor) it's certainly possible to make also a melee "defender" cleric highly effective in this party. If you'd like to go with this focus rather than a more casting focused one, you typically want/need plenty of combat feats and a relatively high Dex for AoOs, and you'll consequently be better off as a human and assigning your rolled stats differently (which I assume is possible).

Note also that the typical D&D "meat shield with decent damage" type of tank isn't a particularly effective mechanical concept, overall as well as in terms of defending allies (and themselves). A more control focused "defender" type of tank can however be made a quite fantastic combatant in general and especially in a defender combat role.

If you're interested in this kind of build, I'll be happy to give you suggestions on build outlines and related options.

A few comments/recommendations on your current choices (these assume the you'll play this PC to at least 6th level):

If you're going for a tank, I suggest you prioritize Dex higher, preferably swapping your Cha and Dex scores (channel energy normally isn't worth investing in a high Cha, especially not for a MAD melee cleric).

Both these grant trait bonuses to damage and thus won't stack. More importantly, as a tank you should generally give damage boosts a very low priority as your primary offensive tools should be control, not damage. I suggest you change these traits, perhaps for Reactionary and something which grants you Perception as a class skill.

As mentioned by Mystral, go with warpriest if you want to focus more on the melee side. It's almost universally a very bad idea to MC as a full caster.

Shield Brace can be great once you can buy/craft/find a mithral shield to remove the attack penalty, but as Kurald mentioned it's really bad before then. I suggest you get Dirty Fighting and at 3rd either Improved Trip or Combat Reflexes instead.

Good catch on Zest for Battle, I was remembering it as a morale bonus to damage as well.

I mean, the "defender" type character is what I'm going for, but how should my stats be distributed if that's the case. And I'm sorry but I can't go human, the races were locked in a while ago. I can change class, but I don't know if warpriest is any better than fighter/cleric mc. They lose too much casting for me to be comfortable, and it takes them a long long time for their class abilities to get better than the gear I'm planning on using.

Currently looking into it, but what would you suggest if I were to try for this concept. How would you distribute stats and what would you try and focus on? Trip seems good, but I don't think there is any good way to finagle my stats into being able to use it

[Kurald Galain]

Shield Foucs/Shield Brace- "The shield’s armor check penalty (if any) applies to attacks made with the weapon." masterwork reduces the ACP of the shield by 1 so it's a +3 AC for -1 to hit.
That's still not a great deal for two feats.


And it imortantly lets me two hand a polearm, meaning bonus damage from power attack and high strength, as well as giving me reach to deny area
I'm not sure why you're saying that these feats let you two-hand a polearm; anyone can two-hand a polearm. Plus your character doesn't have power attack or high strength.


I can change class, but I don't know if warpriest is any better than fighter/cleric mc. They lose too much casting for me to be comfortable, and it takes them a long long time for their class abilities to get better than the gear I'm planning on using.
Depends on if you're planning on Fighter 1 / Cleric 19, or on Fighter 10 / Cleric 10, really. Warpriest is excellent at armor class, due to his swift-action buffs.

[Allistar]

That's still not a great deal for two feats.


I'm not sure why you're saying that these feats let you two-hand a polearm; anyone can two-hand a polearm. Plus your character doesn't have power attack or high strength.


Depends on if you're planning on Fighter 1 / Cleric 19, or on Fighter 10 / Cleric 10, really. Warpriest is excellent at armor class, due to his swift-action buffs.

So being able to wield a two handed weapon while also gaining the AC bonus from a shield is a bad idea at the cost of -1 to attacks? Sure, it's two feats, but what the hell else am I going to spend them on? Metamagic won't come online until later, and there isn't anything currently relevant.

And yes, the idea was more like Fighter 2/Cleric 18. Was going to use the utility of a full caster and taking spells to deal with the support side while I focus feats on the martial side

[Kurald Galain]

So being able to wield a two handed weapon while also gaining the AC bonus from a shield is a bad idea at the cost of -1 to attacks?
I would say so, considering you (1) don't have combat reflexes, (2) are not a full-BAB class, and (3) have a relatively low str for a melee character.


Sure, it's two feats, but what the hell else am I going to spend them on?
If you want to boost your party, you could consider feats like Flagbearer, Insightful Advice, Obscuring Beacon; or Bodyguard and Scarlet Rose Devotion. If you want to boost your defenses, Steel Soul is an excellent pick.

And, if you don't see any relevant feats, you could go full cleric and get better spells.

[Allistar]

I would say so, considering you (1) don't have combat reflexes, (2) are not a full-BAB class, and (3) have a relatively low str for a melee character.


If you want to boost your party, you could consider feats like Flagbearer, Insightful Advice, Obscuring Beacon; or Bodyguard and Scarlet Rose Devotion. If you want to boost your defenses, Steel Soul is an excellent pick.

And, if you don't see any relevant feats, you could go full cleric and get better spells.

So, do you it would be a better idea if I went fighter/warpriest, replaced my dex with my cha and just went from there? That gives me dex for combat reflexes, bonus feats, and self buffs. I like that, but it means I don't get high teir spells.

[exelsisxax]

So, do you it would be a better idea if I went fighter/warpriest, replaced my dex with my cha and just went from there? That gives me dex for combat reflexes, bonus feats, and self buffs. I like that, but it means I don't get high teir spells.

No, everyone is telling you to not use fighter levels at all, but use ONLY warpriest, because that class is a fighter/cleric hybrid. It doesn't need a fighter dip because warpriests are already proficient with all armor and martial weapons and get bonus combat feats.

You should rearrange your int, cha, and dex in that case. Charisma is worthless, so dump it hard and keep your int positive so you can have more than 1 skill point.

high level spells are usually never used anyway. Warpriests are far better combat than clerics due to having fervor, sacred armor, and sacred weapon and that allows them to blow clerics out of the water.

[Tira]

So, do you it would be a better idea if I went fighter/warpriest, replaced my dex with my cha and just went from there? That gives me dex for combat reflexes, bonus feats, and self buffs. I like that, but it means I don't get high teir spells.

If you go warpriest, the fighter level will be completely irrelevant; warpriests get heavy armor proficiency, two good saves instead of one, and your BAB will be the same either way.

[upho]

I mean, the "defender" type character is what I'm going for, but how should my stats be distributed if that's the case. And I'm sorry but I can't go human, the races were locked in a while ago. I can change class, but I don't know if warpriest is any better than fighter/cleric mc. They lose too much casting for me to be comfortable, and it takes them a long long time for their class abilities to get better than the gear I'm planning on using.

Currently looking into it, but what would you suggest if I were to try for this concept. How would you distribute stats and what would you try and focus on? Trip seems good, but I don't think there is any good way to finagle my stats into being able to use it
So being able to wield a two handed weapon while also gaining the AC bonus from a shield is a bad idea at the cost of -1 to attacks? Sure, it's two feats, but what the hell else am I going to spend them on? Metamagic won't come online until later, and there isn't anything currently relevant.

And yes, the idea was more like Fighter 2/Cleric 18. Was going to use the utility of a full caster and taking spells to deal with the support side while I focus feats on the martial sideJudging by what you say here, I definitely think you should go with a single-classed warpriest. To give you an idea of how powerful the combat control of such a build can become, here's a build outline with some example combat values:

The following outlines the most important combat options of a dwarf build with your stats, focusing on trip and later also dirty trick. While this is a relatively straight-forward build, be aware that it's also pretty high-op with its high combat values and very powerful combo of Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp, Dirty Trick Master and Cloak and Dagger Subterfuge to easily trip and daze enemies. My comments in red.

Dwarf Warpriest (Arsenal Chaplain) 12
[Any Alignment] Large humanoid (dwarf)
Cole likely gets a permanent enlarge person as soon as he can afford it.


FEATURE & FEAT PROGRESSION


Level
Notable Features
Feats B = bonus, I = item, see comments
Comments


1
Minor war blessing
Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (dwarven giant sticker)B
The bonus WF is retrained at 4th when Cole gets a COWPIS (cracked opalescent white pyramid (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/opalescent-white-pyramid-ioun-stone/)) for proficiency with the gnome flick-mace.


2
Fervor

Swift action divine favor and channel vigor FTW!


3
Bonus feat
Dirty Fighting, Improved TripB
The basic trip defender combo is now in place.


4
Sacred weapon +1
Weapon Focus (gnome flick-mace)B
Thanks to a COWPIS (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/opalescent-white-pyramid-ioun-stone/) (1,500 gp), Cole can now wield a heavy shield as well as the one-handed flick-mace which has reach and trip. WF is retrained at 11th when Cole can afford a spine flail (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/e-g/flail-spine/).


5
Weapon training +1
Advanced Weapon Training (spirit weapon)
Weapon training goes a long way to help compensate for Coles low Str and Bab. Spirit weapon is fantastic, notably because unlike sacred weapon it's not an action to activate and can grant any magic weapon special ability (like training (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/training/) for extra feats or dueling (PSFG) (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dueling%20(PSFG) ) for huge CMB boosts to trip and dirty trick. Especially great once Cole can afford a pair of gloves of dueling (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gloves-of-dueling/).


6
Bonus feat
Greater Trip
Now each foe Cole trips provokes an AoO from all who threaten. Cole's barbarian and swashbuckler allies will love this.


7

Improved Unarmed StrikeI, Ki ThrowI, Quicken Blessing (War)B, Vicious Stomp, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)I
Now Cole can also place tripped foes in any space within his reach and make an unarmed strike as an AoO against those placed adjacent. So Cole can now make two AoOs on each successful trip.
Ki Throw gained via training (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/training/) AoMF (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-mighty-fists/) (4.000 gp) or spirit weapon, IUS and WF via cracked deep red sphere (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/deep-red-sphere-ioun-stone/) (200 gp) and COWPIS (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/opalescent-white-pyramid-ioun-stone/) 1,500 gp) in a headband of twisted intellect (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/headband-of-twisted-intellect/) (+4,000 gp).


8
Sacred weapon +2




9
Bonus feat, weapon training +2
Improved Dirty TrickB, Vital Strike
Vital Strike is pretty useless for Cole, but unfortunately a prereq for Cloak and Dagger Style.


10
Major war blessing

Major war blessing as a swift, along with use improvements scaling over the following levels. Makes this blessing actually being worth the action cost in combat every now and then.


11

Cloak and Dagger Style, Cloak and Dagger SubterfugeI, Weapon Focus (light flail)B
Each AoO Cole makes grants a free dirty trick. This rocks.
WF (light flail) retrained from WF (gnome flick-mace). Cloak and Dagger Subterfuge gained via +1 training (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/training/) shield (+8.000 gp) or spirit weapon.


12
Bonus feat, sacred weapon +2
Dirty Trick MasterI, Greater Dirty TrickB
And here Cole enters truly high-op territory, as now two dirty tricks can daze the foe and prevent them from taking the standard action to remove the condition. And Cole can make a free dirty trick with each AoO, and each foe he trips provokes two AoOs...




EXAMPLE COMBAT VALUES
The values below include bonuses from pretty standard items and buffs for this kind of build, the only special thing being the (cold iron) spine flail (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/e-g/flail-spine/) of monk versatile design (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-modifications/versatile-design/) with an effortless lace (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/effortless-lace/), which Cole should be able to find, buy or have his wizard ally craft at around 11th. These two items are vital for using Cloak and Dagger Style with reach as well as unarmed strikes, the flail being one-handed reach weapon dealing slashing damage (unlike a normal light flail), and it thus becomes a light weapon with the effortless lace. The spine flail also comes with the great advantage of simultaneously threatening as both a reach and a non-reach weapon, so Cole remains just as competent dealing with enemies anywhere from within his own space out to his full weapon reach.

Initiative +8 (3 dex, 1 competence dusty rose prism, 4 heightened awareness)
Senses darkvision 60'; Perception +25 (3 class, 12 ranks headband, 5 wis, 5 competence eyes of the eagle)

Defense
AC 33, touch 17, flat-footed 29 (9 armor, 2 enhancement, 2 shield, 3 enhancement magic vestment, 3 dex, 4 deflection shield of faith, 1 dodge channel vigor, -1 size
HP 118 (8 1st level, 11d8 fighter, 48 con, 12 favored class)
Fort +16 (8 class, 4 con, 3 resistance, 1 competence cracked pale green prism)
Ref +12 (4 class, 3 dex, 3 resistance, 1 competence, 1 channel vigor)
Will +17 (8 class, 5 wis, 3 resistance, 1 competence)
All these are decent or better, with the possible exception of Ref which is thankfully the far least important.

Offense
Flail +26/+26/+21 (2d6+15 plus dirty trick and steal if AoO) (9 bab, 6 str, 4 weapon training & gloves of dueling, 1 trait Ancestral Weapon, 1 Weapon Focus, 5 enhancement spine flail & sacred weapon, 1 channel vigor, -1 size)
Unarmed Strike +23/+23/+18 (1d8+13 plus dirty trick and steal if AoO) (9 bab, 6 str, 4 weapon training & gloves of dueling, 1 Weapon Focus, 3 enhancement sacred weapon, 1 channel vigor, -1 size)
The average AC of CR 13 opponents published by Paizo (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2-s8weiulPoBQjdI05LBzOUToyoZIdSsLKxHAvf8F8/edit#gid=3) is 26.6, and that of CR 16 ones is 31.3. So Cole's accurate despite his relatively low Bab and Str.

Dirty Trick & Trip CMB flail +42/+42/+37, unarmed strike +36/+36/+31 (9 bab, 6 str, 4 weapon training & gloves of dueling, 1 Weapon Focus, 4 Improved & Greater Trip, 5/3 enhancement, 11/7 luck dueling (PSFG) spirit warrior & Fate's Favored, 1 channel vigor, 1 size)
The average CMD of CR 13 is 34, and that of CR 16 ones is 44.8. Note that in practice Cole only makes dirty tricks using unarmed strikes on Vicious Stomp AoOs, which means the target is prone and Cole gains a +4 bonus to the CMB (for a total bonus of +40).

Reach 25' (all squares within 30' radius) (10 Large size natural reach, 10 reach weapon, 5 long arm)

Spell Slots 4th level 4/day, 3rd level 5/day, 2nd level 7/day, 1st level 7/day, and 0th level 5 at will.
These should provide Cole with more than enough combat buffs, cure and utility spells for a very large majority of adventuring days, especially when supported with wands of low level spells.


BASICS

Ability Scores
Str 22 16 roll, 4 enhancement belt or bull's strength, 2 size enlarge person
Dex 16 15 roll, 1 level 8, 2 enhancement belt, -2 size enlarge person
Con 18 14 roll, 2 race, 2 enhancement belt
Int 14 11 roll, 1 level 12, 2 enhancement headband
Wis 20 15 roll, 2 race, 1 level 4, 2 enhancement headband
Cha 5 7 roll, -2 race
Cole sure ain't no beauty, but otherwise his stats are all solid, even his low Str thanks to his many attack boosts.

Skills 72 points plus max ranks in Perception from headband.

Alternate Racial Traits Fey Thoughts (Perception, Use Magic Device).
Traits Ancestral Weapon, Fate's Favored, Pragmatic Activator; Drawback Pride
UMD as class skill using Int is mostly for eventually allowing Cole to spare his wizard ally from having to poke Cole with wands of especially great arcane buffs before combat.


A cleric of the same level can't get anywhere near the kind of melee control power Cole here has, regardless of fighter dips. Again, this guy can instantly trip, ki throw and double-trick at least two foes per round with any attack he makes (as part of a full attack, charge, as an AoO or whatever), leaving them prone and dazed in a poor position for several rounds on top of taking a bit of damage.

I hope the above gives you some tips and inspiration, even though it would almost certainly be OP in your game.