How high a CR can the party handle?

[An Enemy Spy]

I know CR isn't an exact science when it comes to gauging the power of monsters but if we assume a CR equal to the party of four characters of that level is considered a threat that they should handle without too much trouble, how high can I as a DM go in throwing monsters at them before I hit the ceiling of what they can handle? For this instance, my players are a Level 4 Fighter, a Level 4 Rogue, and a Level 4 Cleric with NPC companions who are a Level 4 Ranger, a Level 3 Bard, and a Level 2 Wizard.

[MeimuHakurei]

Purely by game math, APL+3 is the hardest possible encounter you can throw at a party they can reasonably be expected to defeat. Your given party is at an APL of 4.8 (having more than 4 characters bumps that up) so CR 7-8 challenges would be in that ballpark.

[exelsisxax]

CR is very unreliable, and should never be used as a guide to not accidentally kill of your party. It will eventually go wrong. Even sticking to monsters that have very spot-on CR, environment and party capabilities make it even more complicated.

I have, in one campaign, solo'd a CR 16 creature with a level 9 PC while my two comrades fought a ~CR 14 encounter in parallel. Later on, we were chased away by one sniping bastard that was at most CR 13 while we were level 13.

Always take CR as an extremely imprecise measure, and check creature special abilities and qualities to make sure you don't accidentally send incorporeal creatures at a low-magic party and auto-kill them or similar issues. Since your party is so large, you probably need to have more creatures, not just bigger ones. A solo encounter will still inevitably get cut to pieces by the action economy, but an 'appropriate CR' one will have a good chance of also instantly killing someone before dying.

[Biggus]

I know CR isn't an exact science when it comes to gauging the power of monsters but if we assume a CR equal to the party of four characters of that level is considered a threat that they should handle without too much trouble, how high can I as a DM go in throwing monsters at them before I hit the ceiling of what they can handle? For this instance, my players are a Level 4 Fighter, a Level 4 Rogue, and a Level 4 Cleric with NPC companions who are a Level 4 Ranger, a Level 3 Bard, and a Level 2 Wizard.

The DMG (p.49-50) classes a CR of 5 or more above the party level as "overpowering", ie a probable TPK, and CR 1-4 above as "very difficult", where the players have a fairly good chance of winning, but it's likely that at least one party member may be killed. It varies wildly depending on the optimization level of the party though, and some monsters CRs are dangerously inaccurate (especially in MM2).


Purely by game math, APL+3 is the hardest possible encounter you can throw at a party they can reasonably be expected to defeat.

What math is that?

[Unavenger]

What math is that?

Apart from anything else, APL+4 is the party's own challenge rating. If they faced themselves (a CR = APL+4 encounter) then there's a 50/50 chance of at least some of them winning. At APL+3, the expected result is that the party will win.

[ZamielVanWeber]

CR is very unreliable, and should never be used as a guide to not accidentally kill of your party. It will eventually go wrong. Even sticking to monsters that have very spot-on CR, environment and party capabilities make it even more complicated.

This is my experience. My friend and are crushed a an encounter way above our level so the DM raised the CR by one, from two tens vs an 12 to 2 10s vs a 12 and we nearly died. The big difference was the shift in defenses. They did not go up, they just moved around and *boom* nightmarish encounter.

[Elkad]

Fighting their own characters would be +4.

Which should have a 50/50 chance of success (likely with several deaths).

[Biggus]

Apart from anything else, APL+4 is the party's own challenge rating. If they faced themselves (a CR = APL+4 encounter) then there's a 50/50 chance of at least some of them winning. At APL+3, the expected result is that the party will win.

Ah, that makes sense, thank you.

[Firest Kathon]

In my experience there is a big difference in how you reach the CR: One CR+3 opponent vs. multiple CR+0 or CR+1 opponents. Once you get 2 or 3 CRs above party level, the offenses and defenses tend to shift significantly.

My favorite example to that is the Shadow (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/shadow/). Ad CR3, it should be a hard but not impossible fight for a Level 1 party. However, as it is incorporeal, the party will have near to no options to damage it (no magic weapons, little force spells, maybe a single holy water). Even at level 2, most characters may not have a magic weapon yet (depending on loot and campaign), so it would still be a defeat unless they knew in advance and could prepare (though hopefully no TPK as they can outrun the shadow).

[Telonius]

The level of the characters also matters quite a bit. Low-level PCs don't have as many tricks to fall back on. Like with the Shadow example, if they don't have a magic weapon, well, they're out of luck. Come back tomorrow when the Cleric or Wizard can cast it. But a well-prepared mid- to high-level party can potentially have enough "No" button (no, we're immune to that) and "Yes" button (yes, this affects you anyway) spells available to handle a much higher-CR enemy than they otherwise would be able to take. For example, the group I'm in right now has been using enough optimization and WBL-mancy tricks that we've been able to take on CR 22+ enemies fairly comfortably while we're level 18 and below. (Have not encountered actual Epic spellcasting enemies yet, which is a whole other can of worms).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

CR is very unreliable, and should never be used as a guide to not accidentally kill of your party. It will eventually go wrong. Even sticking to monsters that have very spot-on CR, environment and party capabilities make it even more complicated.

I have, in one campaign, solo'd a CR 16 creature with a level 9 PC while my two comrades fought a ~CR 14 encounter in parallel. Later on, we were chased away by one sniping bastard that was at most CR 13 while we were level 13.

Always take CR as an extremely imprecise measure, and check creature special abilities and qualities to make sure you don't accidentally send incorporeal creatures at a low-magic party and auto-kill them or similar issues. Since your party is so large, you probably need to have more creatures, not just bigger ones. A solo encounter will still inevitably get cut to pieces by the action economy, but an 'appropriate CR' one will have a good chance of also instantly killing someone before dying.Agreed. I still remember when my level 16 character solo'd a CR 23 shadow dragon dracolich, while literally paralyzed for the whole encounter. I didn't kill it, but I did drive it off after about 10 rounds (with, apparently, single-digit hp left). A level later, I ambush-blender-murdered its CR 30 master in an encounter that wasn't even supposed to be the end of the campaign, despite her being the ultimate BBEG. The only reason she got away was because she was a high level caster and managed to respawn (without her super-sweet epic gear, which, of course, went to me).

I love psions.

Of course, I nearly got murderized myself shortly thereafter by an assassin (not the class) a few levels below me when I nearly got decapitated from hiding, which was NOT my character's favorite moment.

So, yeah, CR is really swingy.

[Firest Kathon]

The level of the characters also matters quite a bit. Low-level PCs don't have as many tricks to fall back on. Like with the Shadow example, if they don't have a magic weapon, well, they're out of luck. Come back tomorrow when the Cleric or Wizard can cast it. But a well-prepared mid- to high-level party can potentially have enough "No" button (no, we're immune to that) and "Yes" button (yes, this affects you anyway) spells available to handle a much higher-CR enemy than they otherwise would be able to take. For example, the group I'm in right now has been using enough optimization and WBL-mancy tricks that we've been able to take on CR 22+ enemies fairly comfortably while we're level 18 and below. (Have not encountered actual Epic spellcasting enemies yet, which is a whole other can of worms).

You are right, of course. The OP was asking about an L4 party though, so they are still limited in their tools on that level. :smallcool: