What gave away vampire Durkon to Roy?

[WolvesbaneIII]

I think I missed the obvious here, so forgive my lack of understanding, but what gave it away? He said something about how many pieces the body was in, but thats something that could be a truly possible line of reasoning, even if it is sick and morbid.

I and some others were thinking "thats too evil for durkon to even consider" but is it really? roy even knew durkon was "evil" as he said outright he was no less evil than belker, and a smarter belker might have wondered that too.

is this a prequel thing, or are we just to assume durkon would be too good to even ponder that?

Is there an official answer to this anywhere?

I'm just going to assume it was the "too evil to be real durkon" theory, but if it was anything else please enlighten me.

[Bilbo Baggins]

You can read through the discussion thread from the time to see more perspectives on it (including a couple posts from the giant himself),
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?452083-OOTS-1009-The-Discussion-Thread but it's more or less just what you said - Durkon acting so mean and spiteful was enough to make Roy realize it wasn't just evil Durkon. Shining Wraith put it better than I could:



It's not that what he said was false; it's that no version of Durkon mocks the worst moment of Roy's life. The HPoH went to a level of emotional cruelty that Roy cannot believe his friend would ever do. Roy perhaps does not understand that an evil Durkon would in fact be capable of evil, but regardless of the validity of his logic he has arrived at the correct conclusion - at long last.

[DataNinja]

Or, alternatively, a Durkon who was willing to do that is no longer the same person that he once called Durkon. No longer the person who Durkon represented in his mind. (Same thing in the end, but it's a 'you "grew" out of being that person' as opposed to 'your body was hijacked'.)

[a_flemish_guy]

Or, alternatively, a Durkon who was willing to do that is no longer the same person that he once called Durkon. No longer the person who Durkon represented in his mind. (Same thing in the end, but it's a 'you "grew" out of being that person' as opposed to 'your body was hijacked'.)

yeah, it's like your best friend came over to your house, completely trashed it, ate all the food and drank all the drinks and then spit in your face, I'd bet that he wasn't the person who you made your best friend anymore

roy himself says it best on the next page: :roy:I don't know wether you started out as durkon and turned into this, or you're just squating in his corpse

it's less: "I now know the intrinsic mechanics of vampirism" and more "the durkon who I knew and considered my friend would never say such things and as such you must be somebody else"

[thereaper]

The vampire said, "I've always wondered how many pieces".

Living Durkon didn't think in such morbid ways. Therefore, the only way the vampire's statement could make sense is if he was indeed a separate entity.

The vampire could convince Roy that Durkon had changed. He could not retcon Durkon's previous personality traits.

[KorvinStarmast]

The vampire said, "I've always wondered how many pieces".

Living Durkon didn't think in such morbid ways. Therefore, the only way the vampire's statement could make sense is if he was indeed a separate entity.

The vampire could convince Roy that Durkon had changed. He could not retcon Durkon's previous personality traits.
"I've always wondered how many pieces".
That was the word play that strikes me as the key. In all their years together, Durkon had never asked about "what he's always wondered"

[Doug Lampert]

Back in the 1009 thread I said some other stuff about the Eric taunt, which has been covered (better than I said it), and also said:


...because Durkon was always a slave to duty, since hovering in gaseous form was clearly his best tactic to preserve his mission, that's what Evil Durkon would probably do.

But the HPoH wanted to gloat and taunt and monologue! Which is very Un-Durkon (evil Roy, yeah, evil Roy would gloat and taunt and monologue with the best of them, but that's not Durkon even when evil).

Greg simply isn't acting like Durkon. Evil Durkon might well want to hurt Roy, but if he is still in some sense Durkon, then he'd still do it like Durkon would.

Durkon, monologueing? Not doing his best because he's more interested in taunting an monologueing? Really? Nah.

[Keltest]

Although it does beg the question of why Greg is doing that if he's constructed out of Durkon's personality.

[KorvinStarmast]

Although it does beg the question of why Greg is doing that if he's constructed out of Durkon's personality. But he wasn't. He was constructed to fill a hole in Durkon's heart; he had to try and learn/fake Durkon's personality.

[Fyraltari]

Although it does beg the question of why Greg is doing that if he's constructed out of Durkon's personality.

Because he’s made of the tiny part of Durkon that doesn’t want to put duty before self-interest.

[Quizatzhaderac]

thats too evil for durkon to even considerIt's not so much that he had the thought, it's that the articulated the thought when and how he did. Vaarsuvius might have had the thought out of some genuine interest in the mechanics of the spell that Eugene failed in researching. If Vaarsuvius would ever ask such a thing, it would probably be out of a total cluelessness of ho the question would impact Roy emotionally; Vaarsuvius would probably have also asked a bunch of other questions about the practical effect of the spell because ze would be genuinely interested in that.

But Durkon does have a basic idea of how things impact people emotionally, and also no interest in the technical details of a failed arcane spell.

So the question is why did Greg say that and what effect did he expect it to have on Roy? The only answers I can think of are 1) A sadistic desire to hurt Roy 2) An attempt to drive Roy to despair, therefore helplessness, therefore ineffective interference with Hel's plan; likely a blend of the two in my opinion. But Durkon never enjoyed the suffering of others, even those who wronged him. He also never tried to break anyone's spirit (metaphorically, not counting uses of turn undead on literal spirits) and suddenly he's very good at it.

[137beth]

The vampire said, "I've always wondered how many pieces".

Living Durkon didn't think in such morbid ways. Therefore, the only way the vampire's statement could make sense is if he was indeed a separate entity.

The vampire could convince Roy that Durkon had changed. He could not retcon Durkon's previous personality traits.

That's how I interpreted the page when it was released, too. Looking back, though, I think it works just as well if it is as others in the thread have said: the last step in Roy's emotional journey to realizing he isn't Durkon is that HPoH is too evil even for an evil Durkon.

[Morty]

Roy had already been ignoring various signs that the vampire isn't his old friend who just happens to have been turned into a vampire. This pointlessly cruel taunt was something he just couldn't ignore.

[KorvinStarmast]

The only answers I can think of are 1) A sadistic desire to hurt Roy 2) An attempt to drive Roy to desire, therefore helplessness, therefore ineffective interference with Hel's plan; I think you meant despair, rather than desire, there.

[Fyraltari]

I think you meant despair, rather than desire, there.
I take it you’ve never seen vampires flirting before?

[The Aboleth]

Can't find the quote at the moment, but Rich said the HPoH made a "tactical error" in using Roy's brother against him. Specifically, I think it's the wording the vampire used in bold:

"Here's one thing I've always wondered since you first told me this story..."

That allowed Roy to finally realize the HPoH wasn't "Durkon, but evil." Roy had told Durkon that story long before he had been vamped; for the HPoH to claim Durkon had such evil, depraved thoughts towards his best friend THAT long ago was a bridge too far for Roy to ignore.

(Comic link: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html)

[woweedd]

I think it's less the phrasing and more...OK, Roy thought HPOH was just "Durkon, but evil", and, up to that point in the fight, everything HPOH was doing matched what you'd expect Durkon, with his morals removed, to be like. Fanatically devoted to an Evil god, just as he used to be equally-devoted to a Good god. Willing to murder Belkar, who regular Durkon pretty clearly didn't like and has physically harmed on one occasion. Wanting to destroy the dwarves, over a crime Durkon had always resented...HPOH, up to that point, seemed perfectly in-character for...not Durkon, but a Durkon with all his moral inhibitions removed. But that line...Morals or no, Durkon would never be so pointlessly and pettily cruel, let alone to his oldest friend. That's not Evil Durkon, it's not Durkon, in any variation.

[dps]

I don't even think it was what was said, but who it was said to. I mean, Roy is Good-aligned, but I can see him taunting an enemy that same way, and he probably wouldn't have given it a second thought if an Evil-aligned Durkon did the same. But the being that Roy had thought, up to that point, was Evil-aligned Durkon wasn't taunting an enemy--he was taunting a supposed friend.

[The Aboleth]

I think it's less the phrasing and more...OK, Roy thought HPOH was just "Durkon, but evil", and, up to that point in the fight, everything HPOH was doing matched what you'd expect Durkon, with his morals removed, to be like. Fanatically devoted to an Evil god, just as he used to be equally-devoted to a Good god. Willing to murder Belkar, who regular Durkon pretty clearly didn't like and has physically harmed on one occasion. Wanting to destroy the dwarves, over a crime Durkon had always resented...HPOH, up to that point, seemed perfectly in-character for...not Durkon, but a Durkon with all his moral inhibitions removed. But that line...Morals or no, Durkon would never be so pointlessly and pettily cruel, let alone to his oldest friend. That's not Evil Durkon, it's not Durkon, in any variation.

That's what I'm saying, though.

EDIT: Here is the link to the quote from Rich that I mentioned earlier (on Mobile, sorry for the quick copy/paste job):

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?452083-OOTS-1009-The-Discussion-Thread/page2&p=19967620#post19967620

[BaronOfHell]

I am in the "I've always wondered" camp, but I don't think there is only one correct answer.

Also note that while the vampire blames Roy for people lost, Roy doesn't question his responsibility in this until the moment his brother is mentioned. I don't know if it is relevant, but I think at this point Roy stats to resists and when the vampire then speak about having "always wondered", it is my belief Roy realized that this "always" was perhaps a very short time. Add to that, even if it had been true that Durkon was like that, then the Durkon Roy knew never really existed, I guess.

[DragonclawExia]

I also assumed because Durkon would have acted less mean and pity if it was actually an Evil Durkon.



An actual Fallen and Evil Durkon though, would probably have tried to convince Roy it was better to let Hel destroy the world now and let the God's remake the world then let Xykon potentially destroy reality and the Gods forever with the snarl.


He might have tried to convince Roy the sacrifice of the Dwarves was necessary to ensure the survival of existence, not unlike his own and his fathers actions.



I think a "Fallen" Durkon as a Lawful Evil Character would be more "Lawful" and an ends justify the means and obsessed with protecting Order.


Than the Lawful "Evil" Vampire that while loyal to her mistress was primarily mean-spirited and vindictive than obsessed with the "proper" order of things.

[CriticalFailure]

It's hard to imagine a situation where Durkon would fall and become Evil.

[b_jonas]

I'd also like to mention that the same magical explosion where Eugene accidentally killed Eric also gave Roy superpowers. That's why Roy has an unusually good statblock with all six of his stats above average. When Greg reminds him of that secret superhero origin story, that gives strength to Roy to activate his Legacy Weapon superpowers the first time. And I believe I also know what caused the magical explosion. Eugene Greenhilt accidentally added an extra ingredient to the concoction: Chemical X!

[Mightymosy]

I think I missed the obvious here, so forgive my lack of understanding, but what gave it away? He said something about how many pieces the body was in, but thats something that could be a truly possible line of reasoning, even if it is sick and morbid.

I and some others were thinking "thats too evil for durkon to even consider" but is it really? roy even knew durkon was "evil" as he said outright he was no less evil than belker, and a smarter belker might have wondered that too.

is this a prequel thing, or are we just to assume durkon would be too good to even ponder that?

Is there an official answer to this anywhere?

I'm just going to assume it was the "too evil to be real durkon" theory, but if it was anything else please enlighten me.

Honestly, I didn't get it either.
The Giant had to come out and explain it, which means luckily I was not alone, and you aren't either :-)

For me that's one of the reasons I liked the last book least - two of the climaxes didn't really add up as well as in previous books, is my opinion.
In all other books I was like "oh wow, never would have thought about this, but makes perfect sense"
In this one, I was like "Oooooookay, is THAT really it or is there gonna be some explanation in the next strip? Oh, I guess maybe not"

Roy vs Durkula being example one, and Durkon "turning" Durkula being example two.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Eugene Greenhilt accidentally added an extra ingredient to the concoction: Chemical X!Accidentally? Apparently you don't know how irresponsible magical research works. I guarantee that 99% of that mixture was nitroglycerin, chemical X, eye of gorgon, radium, xenomorph blood, and dihydrogen monoxide. All in all the Greenhilts are lucky it didn't trigger a Helvitica scenario.

[Peelee]

Accidentally? Apparently you don't know how irresponsible magical research works. I guarantee that 99% of that mixture was nitroglycerin, chemical X, eye of gorgon, radium, xenomorph blood, and dihydrogen monoxide. All in all the Greenhilts are lucky it didn't trigger a Helvitica scenario.

Are you saying Eugene used the wrong font to hold the ingredients?

[Jasdoif]

Accidentally? Apparently you don't know how irresponsible magical research works. I guarantee that 99% of that mixture was nitroglycerin, chemical X, eye of gorgon, radium, xenomorph blood, and dihydrogen monoxide. All in all the Greenhilts are lucky it didn't trigger a Helvitica scenario.Are you saying Eugene used the wrong font to hold the ingredients?I thought the courier bringing the ingredients, and the resulting arial burst, made that obvious....

[Peelee]

I thought the courier bringing the ingredients, and the resulting arial burst, made that obvious....

It still may be addressed on-panel. We'll just have to see what the futura holds.

[Jasdoif]

It still may be addressed on-panel. We'll just have to see what the futura holds.While technically true, that's surprisingly oblique; I thought you'd be more bold.

[Peelee]

While technically true, that's surprisingly oblique; I thought you'd be more bold.

That's exactly what an Italian guy said to me once, and I'm going to say the same thing to you that I said to him: get with the times, new Roman!

[Jasdoif]

That's exactly what an Italian guy said to me once, and I'm going to say the same thing to you that I said to him: get with the times, new Roman!Must say, braggadocio is very unbecoming on you. It's almost grotesque....

[Peelee]

Must say, braggadocio is very unbecoming on you. It's almost grotesque....

Sorry, I've been pretty grumpy after having a run-in with the local cops. The serif's deputies are downright mean.

[Jasdoif]

Sorry, I've been pretty grumpy after having a run-in with the local cops. The serif's deputies are downright mean.Understandable. I hear it's pretty rough down there, with so many deputies convinced the only reason they weren't serif themselves is that the position is biased in favor of having tails.


As for the actual question of the thread, I'm pretty sure it's that the depth of HPoH's schadenfreude at rubbing in what happened to Roy's brother isn't covered by the "same Durkon, but with a new outlook" he'd been pushing; it's deeper than a general attitude towards life. Whether that was an immediate logical conclusion on Roy's part, and/or simply the shifting of the most comfortable possibility for Roy to accept at that moment; is probably not enough of a distinction to impact Roy's response at the time.