Good Warlock Substitute?

[Afgncaap5]

tl;dr - Is there a good first party Pathfinder option for replicating a Warlock's eldritch blast that also allows for the summoning of hordes of cartoonishly inept minions like imps or goblins or something? I'm going for a kind of "Arch-Villain Rafaam" vibe.

Full version: We have a group consisting mostly of 3.5 and 5e players, but one of our friends loves Pathfinder (and I quote, "I've spent too much money on these books for it to not be my favorite system!") And hey, Pathfinder's a nice system, I just don't know it as well. Anyway, said friend has said that he wants to run a villainous game. I've been mulling over options for a cartoonishly villainous villain, and the primary things I want are...

1) Something like an Eldritch Blast from the 3.5 Warlock
2) The ability to summon swarms of imps or goblins or various other cartoonishly bumbling miscreants
3) Lots of fire, though not necessarily direct damage fire. A "fire user" rather than a "fire blaster", if that makes sense.

In addition to what I want, there are some complicating factors...

4) The GM in question has a tendency to allow homebrew, but it invariably leads to players being more powerful than he expects and lots of frustration, so I'd rather not just put together some sort of homebrew thing in the interest of his sanity. I want him to have fun running it, after all. Also...
5) He's never said it directly, but I'm pretty sure he hates Spheres of Power, which is unfortunate because I absolutely love it. Seriously, if I just made a spherecaster with the Destruction sphere, the Death sphere, probably some variant Summoning sphere, and likely a Fire-related background, I'd be done with no questions asked, but every previous time he's allowed SoP he invariably starts asking things like "Wait, explain to me again, how many times can you do that per day?" or "Wait, so you can just keep doing that forever and ever? How does that work?"
---->5b) His favorite 3.5 class is the Psion, and his second favorite is the Warlock. Pointing out the similarities between a Warlock's eldritch blast or the Psion's power points does not help to clarify things.


Certain flavors of Sorcerer look like they offer a kind of "Ehhh, close enough..." option, and the Summoner (or at least a variant of it with multiple eidolons) looks like it'd give me the gangs of bumbling minions (eventually...) but the spell selection looks... "off brand". I dunno. Any thoughts?

[Gnaeus]

Alchemist isn’t an at will blaster but it can be made with a lot of bombs. Some alchemist archetypes can summon.

Kineticist is thematically similar (but worse) than warlock. They may have a summoning trick IDK.

If any Dreamscarred Press stuff is available we have better options. (Like a vizier putting essence into a summon monster wand.)

[Kurald Galain]

tl;dr - Is there a good first party Pathfinder option for replicating a Warlock's eldritch blast that also allows for the summoning of hordes of cartoonishly inept minions like imps or goblins or something? I'm going for a kind of "Arch-Villain Rafaam" vibe.
The easiest is a draconic-blooded Sorcerer with Scorching Ray and a bunch of summon spells. Because practically speaking, you'll easily have more spell slots per day than combat rounds.

You'll also get other all other fire spells from the wizard list (with a damage boost), and don't forget the Burning Amplification feat.

[FaerieGodfather]

Your "eldritch blast" options are Kineticist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/occult-adventures/occult-classes/kineticist) and the Warlock (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vigilante/archetypes/vigilante-archetypes-paizo-inc/warlock/) archetype for Vigilante.

Kineticist has some "invocations", but nothing like summoning. Neither class multiclasses well, and I don't think either class has PrC support.

The Samurai Sheepdog (3pp) Invoker (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/samurai-sheepdog/invoker/) is based on the 5e Warlock and does everything you want... but it's 3pp. Likewise the Avowed from Forrestfire Studios, playtest docs available on this forum, which I love but think your DM would be justified in balking at.

[RatElemental]

A broodmaster summoner can turn their one big eidolon into a bunch of small eidolons, which you can make look like gnomes or goblins or imps or whatever you want them to be. At tenth level you can spend two of your evolution points on yourself, which can give a 3/day spell, energy damage to all your attacks, or 1/day even stronger spell. You also have your normal summoner spells, which includes blasting spells.

[stack]

Havocker (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Witch%20Havocker)w itch using summon monster spells? Havocker gives kineticist blasting and keeps witch casting, losing hexes. I don't know the kineticist well, so I can't comment on how well it works, but seems to be the closest that I am aware of with 1st party products.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't know the kineticist well, so I can't comment on how well it works,
Extremely poorly.

Both in terms of damage as well as versatility.

In fact, if your GM allows homebrew, why not homebrew-insert the 3E warlock as written? It's so much more effective and elegant than a kinny, it's not even funny any more.

[stack]

Extremely poorly.

Both in terms of damage as well as versatility.

In fact, if your GM allows homebrew, why not homebrew-insert the 3E warlock as written? It's so much more effective and elegant than a kinny, it's not even funny any more.

I am aware of the general opinion on the kineticist; I meant I wasn't sure how well the abilities the witch archetype gets worked compared to the base kineticist (which I don't think much of).

Also, I agree on porting the warlock.

[Kurald Galain]

I meant I wasn't sure how well the abilities the witch archetype gets worked compared to the base kineticist (which I don't think much of).

Oh, right. Well, the witch's blast deals even less damage (due to not having Overflow or Metakinesis class features). But the witch has excellent versatility due to being an actual spellcaster, and pretty good damage with e.g. Lightning Bolt spells. Seems to me that a havocker witch would only very rarely do anything with the havocking.

[Psyren]

tl;dr - Is there a good first party Pathfinder option for replicating a Warlock's eldritch blast that also allows for the summoning of hordes of cartoonishly inept minions like imps or goblins or something? I'm going for a kind of "Arch-Villain Rafaam" vibe.

First-party? No, there isn't. Paizo was against at-will damage being a thing in first-party Pathfinder (so much so that they butchered the Kineticist trying to get it to fit their sensibilities), so your best bet is to convert the warlock or build one from scratch. Or use a third-party system like Spheres.

As Gnaeus mentioned, taking something with limited but decently-high amount of Su/Sp magical attacks, like a bomber alchemist or a sound striker bard, will get you close to the overall feel even if you can't idly zap passing insects and rocks.

[EisenKreutzer]

Take a look at the Warlock archetype for the Vigilante in Ultimate Intrigue.

[Ssalarn]

As others have mentioned, the first-party pickings are a little slim outside of the kineticist and vigilante (warlock), but there is some solid 3pp stuff.

One option I didn't see mentioned yet is the nexus (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/nexus) class, which combines a warlock-esque blast ability with the akashic system. Depending on your level, you can grab the Cloak of Darkness veil which has a bind that gives you multiple, recharging castings of shadow conjuration for creating temporary minions.

[Bahumut]

As others have mentioned, the first-party pickings are a little slim outside of the kineticist and vigilante (warlock), but there is some solid 3pp stuff.

One option I didn't see mentioned yet is the nexus (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/nexus) class, which combines a warlock-esque blast ability with the akashic system. Depending on your level, you can grab the Cloak of Darkness veil which has a bind that gives you multiple, recharging castings of shadow conjuration for creating temporary minions.

Seconding the Nexus recommendation. I played one in a recent campaign, and between the Planar Detonation subbing for Eldritch Blast, the Convergences modifying the blasts like invocations, and the Veils covering the utility invocations, it *definitely* scratches the old Warlock itch. Shoot, with the Convergences and Veils being tied to specific planes, it's could be considered a Warlock who's 'patron' is the plane/planes their soul is tied to.

[Rynjin]

1st party stuff, Havoker Witch as mentioned is your best bet. Yes their Blast is relatively weak, but they don't lose a whole ton in the grand scheme if you pick a good Element because 9 levels of spellcasting trumps everything. Hell, Fire actually ends up looking like a better element than usual because sacrificing a prepared spell to spontaneously cast Fireball or something is actually a solid deal for a Witch.

For 3rd party, I prefer the Psionic Wilder with the Blasting Wilder archetype, which is basically a Sorcerer with Eldritch Blast.

[Psyren]

While the warlock vigilante's Mystic Bolt ability is indeed at-will, the scaling is so abysmal that personally I'd rather have something with limited ammunition. Even the kineticist does more damage.

[Hunter Noventa]

While the warlock vigilante's Mystic Bolt ability is indeed at-will, the scaling is so abysmal that personally I'd rather have something with limited ammunition. Even the kineticist does more damage.

As a big Warlock fan I was very disappointed by that Archetype, and that's not even getting into the other issues with the Vigilante.

I'll echo what others have said, your best bet is to port the 3.5 Warlock, or try a system like Spheres of Power.

[Troacctid]

Doesn't the kineticist get a talent that lets them summon an elemental?

[Ramza00]

Not 1st Party but Dreamscarred Press 3rd Party Psionics for Pathfinder (which redoes 3.5 psionics and PF decided to never update psionics.)

Some form of Wilder. Especially with the Efficient Surge type.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bb4KrtEGyJ0mWkPdMC7_wXiSrZOUibk4GL32aidD1WM/edit
http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=15782.0

Since Pathfinder does not have the limit on Astral Constructs, have the wilder gain Astral Construct as a 1st level power known via the feat that gives you a 1st level psionic power, racial ability, expanded knowledge, greater mindstone etc. Then take the Advanced Construct Feat and the menu A ability (aka the cheap ability) allows your Astral Construct Summons to last 1 hour per ML and after you start combat the duration is changed to 1 round per level. Summon your horde, fight the battle, and run away if you can't kill it fast enough and summon a new horde.

Likewise you have many psionic powers you can use at a weaker level.

With Greater Mind Stones adding more psionic powers known to the wilder, plus the Surging Crystals adding up to +3 to your Wild Surge, (and you can also stack Overchannel, Talented, and another feat I can't recall the name) and you can get insane burst surges.

Or with the Efficient Surge archetype you get the opposite where you get free psionic powers at reduce PP costs.

Oh yeah there is a psionic wilder prestige class which allows you to share your wild surge with your allies and by the time you enter it roughly 10th level we are talking like a +5 to +6 ML boost with items and all that.

[Kris Moonhand]

Doesn't the kineticist get a talent that lets them summon an elemental?Yeah, Spark of Life.

I can third the suggestion for Nexus. There's also the Cryptic (psionics) with its Disrupt Pattern ability. Not too many summoning options, though.

[Kurald Galain]

Doesn't the kineticist get a talent that lets them summon an elemental?
Yes, but only at level 10 and up. You get a single 4-hit-dice elemental at that level.

[stack]

Yeah, Spark of Life.

I can third the suggestion for Nexus. There's also the Cryptic (psionics) with its Disrupt Pattern ability. Not too many summoning options, though.

Any psionic manifester could pick up astral construct via expanded knowledge. Not aware of anything outside that.

[Eldonauran]

1st party stuff, Havoker Witch as mentioned is your best bet. Yes their Blast is relatively weak, but they don't lose a whole ton in the grand scheme if you pick a good Element because 9 levels of spellcasting trumps everything. Hell, Fire actually ends up looking like a better element than usual because sacrificing a prepared spell to spontaneously cast Fireball or something is actually a solid deal for a Witch.
I've run a gnome Havoker witch/spellslinger wizard. Channeling spells through the gun and piggybacking the kinetic blast through use of the Conductive weapon property was VERY fun. I even *gasp* dipped an actual level of kineticist in order to pick up the gather power class feature. Ended up Witch 15/Wizard 1/Kineticist 1 before the game ended.

[Asmotherion]

I'm not very well versed in PF but you can easyly emulate Eldritch blast with stacking a rogue's sneak attack to a cantrip.

Eldritch scoundrel does seem to fit the trope, as it allows for Magus Casting, witch also takes care of emulating invocations.

[AZGrowler]

There's a Warlock Vigilante guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qAYaDl9Iz7yoszTHGF5G7BexiiW4pFIG9DLEEUdA6ro/edit) that focuses on the Warlock archetype. Part of it deals with some of the 3rd party content that makes the Warlock archetype viable. This content is from Legendary Games, so it's not from a fly-by-night operation. If you GM is cool with 3rd party, this could get you close to the 3.5 Warlock.

[Shpadoinkle]

Well, there's always the invoker, (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/samurai-sheepdog/invoker/) though honestly the class is atrocious compared to a warlock. As two examples right off the top of my head, warlocks can get at-will Spider Climb at 1st level and Fly at (I think) 6th level. Invokers can't get these abilities until 6th and 10th level, respectively.

Another option that occurs to me: Reserve Feats. Complete Mage has Fiery Burst, which lets you create a 5' radius burst of fire anywhere within 30' of you, as long as you have at least one spell of 2nd level or higher with the Fire descriptor memorized and uncast. It's basically a miniature Fireball spell, except it does half damage and has shorter range, but you could theoretically use it all day. There are other reserve feats that are basically half-powered versions of Lightning Bolt and Cone of Cold, as well as a few others I'm sure, but the fire one seems most useful to me. I think there's another that lets you summon a Small elemental as long as you have a Summon Monster spell available to cast.

[Calthropstu]

You can't exactly duplicate it via class features, but you CAN duplicate it via RACE features. I was reviewing the race building rules the other day, and just about any spell 3rd or less can be made at will. Since most of the blasts mimic low level spells, you can give at will spell likes as a racial ability that mimic the blast effects you want.

[Pugwampy]

Pathfinder tome of secrets is a semi official book with different sort of Warlock whose labeled as a ....Warlock XD

This class wears heavy armour eventually , and can cast an infinite amount of ....... those funny powers that each arcane school has eg. Hand of the apprentice . The players chooses a few of those .

[Kurald Galain]

Pathfinder tome of secrets is a semi official book

What do you mean, semi official? It's a third-party book (and by a company I've never heard of). The OP asks for first party solutions; this isn't one.

[radthemad4]

I'm not very well versed in PF but you can easyly emulate Eldritch blast with stacking a rogue's sneak attack to a cantrip.

Eldritch scoundrel does seem to fit the trope, as it allows for Magus Casting, witch also takes care of emulating invocations.How about Arcane Trickster (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/arcane-trickster/)? You can enter it with a single dip in Rogue, Unchained Rogue, Ninja, Vivisectionist or anything that gets sneak attack at level 1 and Accomplished Sneak Attacker (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/accomplished-sneak-attacker/) (e.g. Vivisectionist 1/Wizard 3/Arcane Trickster). And you can still summon things as you're a Wizard. If you take the Fire (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo-arcane-schools/elemental-arcane-schools/fire/) Elemental Arcane School, and take the Smoke (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo-arcane-schools/elemental-arcane-schools/fire/smoke-focused-arcane-school/) subschool, you can see through smoke, and then carry around a bottle of smoke (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/a-b/bottle-eversmoking/) to help get sneak attacks on things (though you could also use Fog Cutting Lenses (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/lenses-fogcutting/) instead, but you can occasionally give your allies smoke sight too if you go with the Smoke subschool).

[vilor]

Kobold Press' New Paths Compendium Expanded Edition has THE best Warlock I've seen for PF: average BAB, Light armour, 6th level spells from the Witch list, Dread Bolts (about as good as the original's Eldritch Blast as you're going to get), plus some options for essentially making them curse-like a few times a day from 6th (?) level, and they also get a bonded weapon (a bit like the Blackblade Magus'). All in all it's a very good class!

[Afgncaap5]

So far it looks like the best options are

1) Just port the 3.5 Warlock
2) Draconic-Blooded Sorcerer (which was already on my "maybe" list, along with Ifrit and Phoenix-blooded)
3) An alchemist geared toward lotsa bombs and summoning
4) Seeing if maybe this time Spheres of Power might be something that doesn't make him go crazy.

Some decent options there, I think I can work with this. Thanks!

[Alexvrahr]

For summoning the obvious answer is...a summoner. There's options (e.g. versatile summon monster feat) to make it more fire-themed, though they don't get a fire blast. There are a couple of fire spells on the summoner list though not many (fire shield and obsidian flow are OK) and there are a few ways to add more to their spell list e.g. a samsaran with mystic past life.