Bear Totem too strong?

[Uncleterri]

I've recently been playing as a bear totem barbarian with my d&d group and my DM has expressed frustration with how strong having essentially 2x HP is. Is he in the right? Do you think that bear totem need some changes or that its fine as is?

[J-H]

Nope, that's what Barbarians do. If you're soaking lots of damage - that's your job!
If he's unable to damage the rest of the party - he can target your saves, he can use more enemies, he can use AOEs, he can use terrain, he can use ranged weapons.... well, ok, so just about anything except "Here's a 15' wide corridor and a bunch of guys with swords."

[Nagog]

Considering that's what the bear totem is built to do, not at all. Also, it's only while raging, so surprise attacks, traps, out of combat damage, and the like, is unmitigated. If your DM can't handle it, it sounds like this will be a learning experience for them. :)

[SociopathFriend]

Crown of Madness. The only three words you ever need to hear to utterly screw over a Barbarian at low-level.

You can also do it with another three, "Wisdom Saving Throw".
Barbarians are proficient in Strength and Constitution Saving Throws. They eventually get Advantage on Dexterity Saving Throws if they see them coming.

The Barbarian is a nasty wrecker of men who hears the lamentations of the women. They are, however, extremely susceptible on being turned right around to jump their allies due to being practically forced into melee.

If your DM only ever throws fodder at the Barbarian then that's all the Barbarian would ever want- a bunch of weak people to mow down in melee that can't get past him to the squishies. Bearbarian is one of, if not the, most defensive Barbarian subclasses to boot.

[sithlordnergal]

It is working as intended. I wouldn't call it too strong since you lack a lot of damage options

[SociopathFriend]

Another thing to remember is you only get so much Rage per day. If the DM only does one battle a day then Long/Short Rest options are very strong.

If, however, he plays it so that you win a fight and then have at least a minute to a few hours between the next; Rage starts looking a bit sketchy to always have going.

[Jerrykhor]

Sounds like a salty DM to me. Sure, as a Bear totem barbarian myself, I agree is one of the stronger Paths, but that's because Barbarian paths are quite crappy in general. Berserker, Battlerager and Storm Herald are very underwhelming. Ancestral Guardian is okay, but Zealot is still king when it comes to being unkillable.

Bear totem don't need nerfs, its the others that need buffs.

[LudicSavant]

I've recently been playing as a bear totem barbarian with my d&d group and my DM has expressed frustration with how strong having essentially 2x HP is. Is he in the right? Do you think that bear totem need some changes or that its fine as is?

Bear totem isn't excessively strong, but can seem like it to newer players. I think that this is because a standard bear-barian is basically a FOO strategy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w). Which basically means that it does well for the amount of player skill/experience invested to do it, but it's not one of the strongest things in the game. At tables with a higher level of experience and optimization, it might instead be the Bear Totem Barbarian who feels left behind (and you can find threads to this effect scattered here and there throughout the forum).

Doubling your HP may seem impressive at first blush, but having very strong saves, higher AC, and defensive special abilities can actually mathematically outpace that (as can simply shutting down enemies faster than a Bear-barian can). And Barbarians are actually quite vulnerable to many of the more indirect forms of attack, like lockdown, kiting, target denial, status effects, and the like (this also contributes to why they seem to be stronger against less experienced DMs, who tend to rely more on just direct damage while overlooking other avenues of attack). A bear-barian's defenses aren't as well-rounded as they might first seem.

Usually the kinds of DMs who think Bear Totem Barbarians are overpowered are also the kind who don't have enemies do much more than walk up to the nearest character and exchange melee attacks until one side falls over. And the Barbarian is supposed to smash those situations at the cost of having vulnerabilities against other kinds of tactics.

The likes of Zealots, Ancestral Guardians, Eldritch Knights, Battlemasters, basically any Paladin, caster tanks, and so forth should have little trouble keeping up with (or even exceeding) Totem Barbarians if they're played to their potential.

[djreynolds]

All barbarians have rage.

The bear has resistance to basically elemental and force and radiant and necrotic and poison.

How much are getting you fireballs and lightning bolts hurled at you?

On the flip side...

And honestly how often are getting charmed or frightened?

I feel the bear barbarian 3rd level perk has the greatest upside...

Enjoy it. Hulk.... smash... or pierce... or slash... or bludgeon

At 6th.... seriously consider tiger... 2 free skills

[Willie the Duck]

All barbarians have rage.

The bear has resistance to basically elemental and force and radiant and necrotic and poison.

How much are getting you fireballs and lightning bolts hurled at you?

Exactly. I can't remember who, but someone did an analysis of expected damage to be received during adventuring. There were a lot of assumptions one could challenge, but in the end the verdict was that the bear resistance upped effective HP compared to other barbarians by less than 20%.

[Keravath]

It sounds to me more that your DM is inexperienced with 5e more than anything else. The bear totem barbarian resistance to all but psychic damage is cool but by no means overpowered in actual play.

1) All barbarians get resistance to all piercing/bludgeoning/slashing damage which accounts for a lot of the damage in most encounters (this includes magical damage by the way). The bear totem adds fire/lightning/thunder/force/necrotic/radiant/poison etc which generally makes them resistant to spells and monster special attacks rather than the basic attacks which are mostly physical. So the bear totem is only better when you are being hit by some of the more exotic damage types.

2) Yes. this could effectively double the barbarian hit points which are already the highest of any class. Cool. The question becomes, why are the NPCs/monsters attacking the barbarian if there are better targets available? Intelligent opponents might attack ranged opponents or spell casters because they typically have lower AC and hit points making them easier to take down. In addition, barbarians typically have terrible wisdom saving throws. Resilient wisdom is on the list for feats for almost every barbarian. However, when the barbarian fails the save they can either be neutralized or become a hazard to the party (Crown of Madness was mentioned but there are others). This becomes more of a concern when the barbarian has the Great Weapon Master feat possibly combined with Polearm Master and a few levels of Champion fighter. With reckless attack, the amount of sheer physical damage these guys can put out is incredible.

3) Reckless attack. Most barbarians use this regularly. It gives them advantage to hit but also gives opponents advantage to hit them. This means that barbarians typically NEED those extra hit points since they are hit far more often by opponents. Reckless attack and rage go hand in hand.

4) Use of rage is limited in number of times/day. At lower levels this is 2-3. Since it can only last one combat (if that since it ends if the barbarian is prevented from attacking) this makes it a pretty scarce resource. If a typical day has 6-8 encounters and 5 of them involve combat then the barbarian can only use rage in 2-3 of them leaving them without rage in another 2-3 combats. No rage. No resistance. However, a lot of DMs tend to run days with only 2 encounters. All the long rest classes burn off their resources and after the second fight they say "We're going to the Inn and sleep overnight, we'll come back to the quest tomorrow". This is the DMs fault since adventure pacing is up to the DM. If the DM wants to discourage such behaviour they need to design encounters and quests so that the party can't just stop in the middle. They need to be running on a clock to make them continue. This also encourages them to conserve resources just in case there will be another encounter before they can rest. Ideally, the party should have used almost everything by the end of at least SOME adventuring days which have 6-8 encounters. The key is to make it so that the players aren't dictating the number of encounters ... the DM does.

5) The barbarian gets extra attack at level 5 and their rage bonus increases slowly. That is about all the extra damage they pick up unless they take feats. Other classes will outdamage most barbarians (unless they go the GWM/PAM/fighter route mentioned above).

----

Anyway, the bottom line is that the barbarian class is pretty balanced against everything else given its features and I think your DM just needs more experience with 5e.

(For example: They probably haven't seen a low level moon druid changing into a brown bear (twice/short rest) at level two yet :) ... however, the moon druid balances out at level 5+ with another bump at 10 when they get elemental forms.)

[stoutstien]

For kicks I compared the totem (bear) barb vs a plain champion fighter with minimal investment in survivability and the barbarian only had around 30-40% more EHP at the end of the day.
You toss on weak saves and other ways rage can end early it's actually very lacking for being the mitigation king.

[LudicSavant]

For kicks I compared the totem (bear) barb vs a plain champion fighter with minimal investment in survivability and the barbarian only had around 30-40% more EHP at the end of the day.
You toss on weak saves and other ways rage can end early it's actually very lacking for being the mitigation king.

Also worth noting that Champion Fighters are just about the squishiest Fighters, lacking the temp HP generation / extra save proficiency of the Samurai, the debuffs/control of the Battle Master, or the potent defensive spells of the Eldritch Knight.

[stoutstien]

Also worth noting that Champion Fighters are just about the squishiest Fighters, lacking the temp HP generation / extra save proficiency of the Samurai, the debuffs/control of the Battle Master, or the potent defensive spells of the Eldritch Knight.

Yea I was honestly surprised just how soft totem Barbs are at the end of day.
If a party plans around them they are ok due to having very good damage spike prevention and large HP pools but I can't even put them in top 5 for mitigation.
AG are solid at party mitigation and zealots Rez cheaply but the others are probably better built as tough damage dealers with damage sponge as a perk.

[Willie the Duck]

Also worth noting that Champion Fighters are just about the squishiest Fighters, lacking the temp HP generation / extra save proficiency of the Samurai, the debuffs/control of the Battle Master, or the potent defensive spells of the Eldritch Knight.

EK with Shield/Absorb Elements (and Resilient:wis as their extra ASI/feat) is a great sponge.

[suplee215]

HP is only one aspect of the game. "Make a wis/cha/int" save is the death of any barbarian.

[bored_acel]

Feel free to remind your DM to read about Rage again; it's actually more fragile of a condition than many people believe.


Your rage lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are knocked unconscious or if your turn ends and you haven't attacked a hostile creature since your last turn or taken damage since then. You can also end your rage on your turn as a bonus action.

There are 3 ways that I have had success putting Barbarians in a bind by possibly causing the character to waste a rage. In lower level play, a wasted rage is cruel, but an especially useful tool to punish Bear Totem players who pop their steroids before actually engaging an opponent.

Have the battle last; long engagements with very spaced out foes can chew through multiple rages. e.g. Not all the bandits arrived together, the B-Team arrived a minute late to see the last of their allies dropped by the adventurers.
Have enemies flee from the raged barb for a 10 rounds while attacking the other people in the party. Before unarmored movement comes online, this works the best, and after then having small traps or difficult terrain get in the way work too.
Have a low level caster spend the full value of Sleep on putting the barbarian to rest- this will work until the barbarian is too thicc, but stops the rage, and requires someone to wake the the character as the encounter then has enemies focus on the squishies.

[MilkmanDanimal]

Crown of Madness. The only three words you ever need to hear to utterly screw over a Barbarian at low-level.

You can also do it with another three, "Wisdom Saving Throw".

So much. I mean, Bear Totem is designed to soak damage; it does that better than any other subclass in the game. If all your DM does is throw damage, well, yeah, that'll be frustrating. Brain saves are the way for them to go.

Bear Totem's a very good subclass, but it's not overpowered at all. It's just a great tank.

[GlenSmash!]

In addition to the other advice in the thread, If your DM threw just one more encounter per day than the Barbarian has Rages, you will see a dramatic reduction in the Bear totem's effectiveness.

[LudicSavant]

Yea I was honestly surprised just how soft totem Barbs are at the end of day.
If a party plans around them they are ok due to having very good damage spike prevention and large HP pools but I can't even put them in top 5 for mitigation.

Pretty much.

[HiveStriker]

Also worth noting that Champion Fighters are just about the squishiest Fighters, lacking the temp HP generation / extra save proficiency of the Samurai, the debuffs/control of the Battle Master, or the potent defensive spells of the Eldritch Knight.
Impressive how you can make such an empty assessment...
Classic curse of theorycrafters... :)

Get all 18+ level Fighters in a truely hard campaign, with little healing around (of course if you have a Life Cleric and a Druid you can cope with many things), you'll see who's left standing over the course of several encounters...
Champion's regen ability, even if only up to half max HP, does wonders when push comes to shove and you have to spare resources... :)

Of course if you are speaking of one big encounter with enemies that have hard-hitting abilities, Eldricht Knight will be better.

Same if you were comparing 11th level Fighters, in which case basically all archetypes pale in resilicence compared to Eldricth Knight even if that one doesn't have that many slots anyways...

it's all about context.

@OP, back on topic...

HP is only one aspect of the game. "Make a wis/cha/int" save is the death of any barbarian.
Pretty much this. Or even simply ignoring Barbarian to end rage early or make you just ineffective (you can always throw a weapon at disadvantage to maintain the rage, but if you can't reach anybody to hit in melee and enemies avoid you as much as possible in turn, still makes you useless in the end).

[Willie the Duck]

Impressive how you can make such an empty assessment...
Classic curse of theorycrafters... :)

Get all 18+ level Fighters in a truely hard campaign, with little healing around (of course if you have a Life Cleric and a Druid you can cope with many things), you'll see who's left standing over the course of several encounters...
Champion's regen ability, even if only up to half max HP, does wonders when push comes to shove and you have to spare resources... :)

Of course if you are speaking of one big encounter with enemies that have hard-hitting abilities, Eldricht Knight will be better.

Same if you were comparing 11th level Fighters, in which case basically all archetypes pale in resilicence compared to Eldricth Knight even if that one doesn't have that many slots anyways...

it's all about context.

You are predicating your critique on being levels 11+ and 18+, and then acting condescending towards others' analysis?
To each their own I guess.

[da newt]

"Impressive how you can make such an empty assessment...
Classic curse of theorycrafters... :)

Get all 18+ level Fighters in a truely hard campaign, with little healing around (of course if you have a Life Cleric and a Druid you can cope with many things), you'll see who's left standing over the course of several encounters...
Champion's regen ability, even if only up to half max HP, does wonders when push comes to shove and you have to spare resources... :)"


The above seems excessively snarky as you are talking about a lvl 18+ ability that only a very small % of time / campaigns experience, and assume a lvl 18+ party with "little healing around" ...

[stoutstien]

It should be noted that my original interest in the comparison of the champion fighter and the totem Barbarian was due to seeing them in play side by side at the same game and in isolation that I noticed the totem barbarian not maintain the mitigation master title past early levels. Even then it is a pretty close call between other options.

If the player wanted to be a tough damage monster it was fine but if they wanted to focus on impeding enemies and soaking hits they where left wanting.

Not even going to bring up the fact that if multiclass is an option non caster focused players can snipe 50-70% of the boons of barbs with a fairly shallow dip.

[bendking]

Impressive how you can make such an empty assessment...
Classic curse of theorycrafters... :)

Get all 18+ level Fighters in a truely hard campaign, with little healing around (of course if you have a Life Cleric and a Druid you can cope with many things), you'll see who's left standing over the course of several encounters...
Champion's regen ability, even if only up to half max HP, does wonders when push comes to shove and you have to spare resources... :)

Of course if you are speaking of one big encounter with enemies that have hard-hitting abilities, Eldricht Knight will be better.

Same if you were comparing 11th level Fighters, in which case basically all archetypes pale in resilicence compared to Eldricth Knight even if that one doesn't have that many slots anyways...

it's all about context.


Dude... That is a level 18 feature. What are you saying? That champion isn't squishy because he gets a good feature at a level most players don't reach?
I don't think looking at things at level 18 is the way to go when making a statement about how good anything in 5e is, to be honest.

[MagneticKitty]

Posession, charm, mind control. Turn them on their friends. Stun them a round so their rage fades. Wall them off with magic. Banishment, plane shift. Put them in time out. There are ways to challenge a barb.