wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

[King of Nowhere]

i recently discovered the spell's ludicrous power, and it just seems wrong. especially in comparison with two similar spells, wall of stone and forcecage.

wall of stone is a spell of the same level and does something similar. except that if you try to trap a creature with it it gets a saving throw, and anyway any decent fighter at that level can power attack through the wall in one round. wall of thorns is basically wall of stone without its two major limitations that made it manageable. in particular the stuff about requiring 10 minutes to chop down one foot of it seems wrong. everything else has hardness and hit points, and the way power attack works, a high level fighter can smash even adamantium so fast, he may as well have a burrow speed. but no. they could tear down a 5-foot wall of adamantium in one round, but they need 50 minutes for a bunch of vegetables. regardless of anything else.

forcecage does something similar to wall of thorns, and it is widely regarded as a very useful spell. despite being two full levels higher. the main difference is that you can count on 13th level people to have some way out of a forcecage. at 9th level, much less so. wall of thorns allows some more escape routes than forcecage, but it has a higher area, allowing to trap many creatures, or even colossal creatures.
speaking of escape routes, the only one given is a STR check where you need at least 25 to be able to move at all. even a high level barbarian won't make it more than 50% of times. it's also much easier to attack something stuck into a wall of thorns than inside a forcecage.

so, basically wall of thorns is a 5th level spell that takes people out of a fight without any kind of saving throw or resistance allowed, and the various counterplays that work against it are not so easy to get at level 9.

is it really so strong, or is there something i miss? would it be unreasonable to houserule it to have a hardness and hit points instead?

[DeTess]

I don't disagree that it is very strong, but one thing you shouldn't overlook is that you can pass through the wall without having to chop it down if you can make a pretty high strength check, so it's less of an absolute barrier than a wall of stone would be.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Another detail you missed, it's an active spell effect. That means that; unlike wall of stone, because of its instantaneous nature, and wall of force, because of an explicit clause in the spell; wall of thorns can be dispelled.

Teleportation and flight aren't so common at level 9, though they are become more so, but dispelling was four levels back. You should be coming into the region where even warriors have access to a modicum of dispelling options and should be seeking them if they have any reason to expect caster enemies.

DeTess is right about the ability of particularly strong characters to simply push through in a couple rounds too. Most fighters and barbarians should be sporting a str of 20 or more by level 8 and picking up options to boost strength checks isn't at all uncommon either. It's not explictly stated in the spell description but I'd have to imagine the climb DC for the wall of vines is much lower than for wall of stone too.

It's definitely a solid effect. Right up there with any of the physical wall spells (as opposed to the ephemeral ones like wall of gloom) but it's not far off of wall of stone and definitely a lot less powerful than forcecage or wall of force.

[Hiro Quester]

I used it when playing a Druid. Not often, though. Most enemies it just slows down.

You make a strength check, and as a full round action can move through 5 feet for every 5points you beat a DC 20 check. And you take 25-your AC damage when passing through. A strong well armored fighter with a lucky roll can get through in a round or two, with minor scrapes.

So it’s decent BFC, for isolating some creatures that are neither strong nor well-armored and who can’t fly or teleport. But more comparable to a wall of stone than a forcecage.

[Kurald Galain]

DeTess is right about the ability of particularly strong characters to simply push through in a couple rounds too. Most fighters and barbarians should be sporting a str of 20 or more by level 8
Sure, but that's not great. A raging barbarian would have about 26 strength, but that's still +8 against a DC 25, or an 80% chance of doing nothing.

Going by the Climb skill description, a wall of thorns is DC 15 to climb, a wall of stone is DC 20 to 25, and a wall of force is DC 70 (ELH). So that's the easiest counter, although it would cause a bit of damage to most climbers.

[King of Nowhere]

trying the STR check is not really on the table unless you are the tarrasque, an old dragon, or are feeling lucky. even with a decent optimization to get to STR 30, you are still looking at 75% chance of just losing your round.

climb and fly are two things i didn't consider doing, because i assumed that the wall also covered above me. can't you use the wall to make a sort of overhang and stop one from moving upwards (wall of stone explicitly can, no mention is made for wall of thorns)? if you cannot, then this strongly reduces the effectiveness of the spell.
Also, i assumed the wall was cast on my same square, so that i was encased within thorns in my own 5-ft squares (with perhaps 1 ft on each side of unbroken wall, and a solid 5 ft upwards). but now that i read it again, i am not sure if that is what the spell meant as "trapping someone with it" or if it just means boxing someone into a square. (also, i didn't consider it much because i had a shadow jump available. still, if i had a hole over me, i could have jumped through it and would have liked it better)
can you clarify that point for me? can you make a wall of thorns appear on a square occupied by another creature to trap the creature inside?

the fact that it's an active spell effect also helps me wrap my head around the fact that it has no hardness. i can accept it better by thinking of the spell regenerating the wall as you chop it, and cutting it requiring putting something to physically prevent the brambles from regrowing. I can also imagine someone moving through it with the STR check as ripping the brambles apart, with new ones reforming immediately afterwards.
by the way, by this description, shouldn't it also be possible to pass through it with escape artist? is there something like it mentioned somewhere?

[Hiro Quester]

Also, i assumed the wall was cast on my same square, so that i was encased within thorns in my own 5-ft squares (with perhaps 1 ft on each side of unbroken wall, and a solid 5 ft upwards). but now that i read it again, i am not sure if that is what the spell meant as "trapping someone with it" or if it just means boxing someone into a square.

It does seem you can cast it on an area and encase creatures within it, so their square is also filled with thorns:


Any creature within the area of the spell when it is cast takes damage as if it had moved into the wall and is caught inside

[malloc]

Yeah, that spell is pretty good. One of those encounter-ending, saveless spells for a good chunk of combats.

When it was used in my last campaign, the ruling was that it could be cast on a space occupied by a creature. So it was pretty potent.

[Troacctid]

Don't forget that you can buy a thorn pouch for only 4,400 gp to get wall of thorns 1/day...as a swift action! Because that's fair. Or worse, Greenbound Summoning, get it as a 1st level spell, because why not? 😝

Unlike other walls, wall of thorns is also negated by freedom of movement and similar effects. In general, though, I agree that it is really good.

[smetzger]

The one 10 ft cube per level option makes it shapeable also, which is quite nice.

Some house rule suggestions...
1) Add size modifiers to the strength check (like grapple)

2) Allow for escape artist check with size modifiers

3) Allow 'formless' creatures to pass through it unhindered (e.g. water elemental, air elemental, fire elemental)

[Madwand99]

Yes, it's really good. It can generally and reliably used to disable/remove one foe of Large size or less on the battlefield. As DM, make sure you have more than one such foe. Note that there are many such examples of "really good battlefield control spells" throughout the PHB. Glitterdust and Web are both generally better spells in that they can disable more foes and are a lower level. Yes, these spells get a save, but any DM that has played with a good "God Wizard" in their game knows their incredible power. Wall of Thorns is pretty average when compared to similar battlefield control spells.

[ciopo]

so, basically wall of thorns is a 5th level spell that takes people out of a fight without any kind of saving throw or resistance allowed, and the various counterplays that work against it are not so easy to get at level 9.


Uhm, freedom of movement?

the "amount of movement determined by a str check result" wording is samey to the web spell, except for the higher DC

my reading on it is "like web but better" rather than something to be compared to wall of stone

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Uhm, freedom of movement?And ethereality, incorporeality, teleportation, Escape Artist, flight, burrowing, and various transmutation effects that make one formless. There are probably others, too.

[King of Nowhere]

Yes, it's really good. It can generally and reliably used to disable/remove one foe of Large size or less on the battlefield. As DM, make sure you have more than one such foe. Note that there are many such examples of "really good battlefield control spells" throughout the PHB. Glitterdust and Web are both generally better spells in that they can disable more foes and are a lower level. Yes, these spells get a save, but any DM that has played with a good "God Wizard" in their game knows their incredible power. Wall of Thorns is pretty average when compared to similar battlefield control spells.

it's more of a general principle thing; i am of the opinion that nothing should be allowed to screw you up too badly without a saving throw or some other kind of reasonable counterplay. if we are doing just that, we are at an optimization higher than i like to play with.

also, i am seeing this from a player perspective.
my character had some bad experiences with magic in the past and is trying hard to resist magic. i picked a monk for high saving throws, touch ac and spell resistance. i sunk a lot of money into further increasing my already-good saving throws, i took some prestige classes mostly for the +2 at first level, and i agreed with my dm to swap scaling damage with scaling SR on those prestige classes too. i spent lots of skill points in spot and listen to stand a better chance at defeating illusions (though they are also very useful on their own), and in escape artist specifically to get out of web spells. i've also invested in a few backup against no-save spells.
we're not playing at high optimization (i'd never try such a build if that was the case, i know that a highly optimized wizard would be able to go around all my defences easily), so i'm able to tank pretty much any magical assault available in the campaign world with impunity.
except when a mid-level druid cast thorn wall at me, and then i had to burn one of my limited used of dimension door and hope the druid wouldn't have two more prepared. i can accept it from forcecage, 13th level casters are much more rare, but i'm not comfortable knowing that any 9th level druid can keep me pinned.

if i was looking at this from a DM perspective, i'd just start using wall of thorn against the players

[ciopo]

it's more of a general principle thing; i am of the opinion that nothing should be allowed to screw you up too badly without a saving throw or some other kind of reasonable counterplay. if we are doing just that, we are at an optimization higher than i like to play with.

also, i am seeing this from a player perspective.

Freedom of movement!

I was happily traipsing around with a str-focused shapeshift variant half-orc

at around level 6 we almost tpk'd from one level 8ish wizard "medium bad" encounter, , he nicely webbed us and then dropped ice storms on us, he went down like wet paper once one good melee hit splitted him in half, but not before 3 rounds of him dropping aoe's on us because despite passing the saving throw that str check for determining movement had us locked down all the same.

No different form me using entangle really :D

from that day onward that druid of mine has heart of water prepared, since we're not high enough for 4th circle slots yet.

but just the same, wall of thorns has a bunch of counters that are less than 5th circle spell and Freedom of movement is a very reasonable thing to have prepared.

if you don't well, one web was enough for me to learn the lesson

any level 1 druid/wizard can keep you pinned if you don't have some freedom of movement or freedom of movement adjacent effect

[Gnaeus]

The 3.pf (unlike the 5e) versions don’t specifically block line of sight. There could be gaps you could see through. DM call. Doesn’t say it gives complete cover or regular cover or concealment or what.

If it doesn’t block los/loe, anklet of translocation is 1400 GP and every melee character already spent 2100 adding that effect to whatever shoes they were wearing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

it's more of a general principle thing; i am of the opinion that nothing should be allowed to screw you up too badly without a saving throw or some other kind of reasonable counterplay. if we are doing just that, we are at an optimization higher than i like to play with.

Almost nothing in the system doesn't have a counter at or near the same level it becomes available. A lot of it doesn't even necessearily have to be a direct counter with another spell, though some of it does.


also, i am seeing this from a player perspective.

I look at most things from a strategic perspective. Here's the thing, how do I get past it with the resources I have available.


my character had some bad experiences with magic in the past and is trying hard to resist magic. i picked a monk for high saving throws, touch ac and spell resistance. i sunk a lot of money into further increasing my already-good saving throws, i took some prestige classes mostly for the +2 at first level, and i agreed with my dm to swap scaling damage with scaling SR on those prestige classes too. i spent lots of skill points in spot and listen to stand a better chance at defeating illusions (though they are also very useful on their own), and in escape artist specifically to get out of web spells. i've also invested in a few backup against no-save spells.

It's a high magic world. You're not gonna get far into mid-level without giving at least some consideration to how to deal with magical onslaughts.


we're not playing at high optimization (i'd never try such a build if that was the case, i know that a highly optimized wizard would be able to go around all my defences easily), so i'm able to tank pretty much any magical assault available in the campaign world with impunity.

The power of such casters tends to be overstated. Just make sure your defenses are solid and you should do well enough. If you're a monk, you've already got evasion so you'll also want to pick up mettle somewhere, like a tabard of valor from complete champion (only for <50% hp).


except when a mid-level druid cast thorn wall at me, and then i had to burn one of my limited used of dimension door and hope the druid wouldn't have two more prepared. i can accept it from forcecage, 13th level casters are much more rare, but i'm not comfortable knowing that any 9th level druid can keep me pinned.

... but he can't? A ninth level druid only gets -one- 5th level slot per day from the class and only one more if he's got wis 20+ or a 25k gp pearl of power. You countered it. I don't see the problem. There's a -lot- that can be done to counter it, as has been shown in this thread, and you generally only have to do it once since even higher level druids aren't likely to prepare more than one or two instances anyway.


if i was looking at this from a DM perspective, i'd just start using wall of thorn against the players

I wouldn't go out of my way to do it but I wouldn't see any particular reason not to either.

[Kurald Galain]

... but he can't? A ninth level druid only gets -one- 5th level slot per day from the class and only one more if he's got wis 20+
I've never seen any 9th-level caster without a 20+ in their casting stat, and usually it's higher than that... plus a druid could conceivably have the plant domain.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I've never seen any 9th-level caster without a 20+ in their casting stat, and usually it's higher than that... plus a druid could conceivably have the plant domain.

For the wis, sometimes the dice are a pain and standard array isn't likely to get you to 20 by level 9 for NPCs.

Druids don't get domains unless you go out of your way to get them.

Even if you do have the requisite abiliity for a bonus spell of 5th level, that's still just 2 slots and preparing wall of thorns in both seems like a poor decision.

[Gauntlet]

For the wis, sometimes the dice are a pain and standard array isn't likely to get you to 20 by level 9 for NPCs.

For reference, the WBL of a 9th level NPC easily covers a +2 item, and you get another +2 from level ups, so 19 in casting stat is pretty easy, with the last point needing a bonus from race, spells, age, or something similar.

[King of Nowhere]

You countered it. I don't see the problem. There's a -lot- that can be done to counter it, as has been shown in this thread, and you generally only have to do it once since even higher level druids aren't likely to prepare more than one or two instances anyway.


i'm level 16, and it took me a full round action (ok, technically a standard action, but i had nothing to do with my move action anyway) to get out of the wall that this level 9 can summon. i worry that if a group of lower leveled foes attacks us, one can cast wall of thorns every round to keep me and other martials from acting while the rest can act freely. if they can add in some way to neutralize our casters, they can keep the party pinned while picking us at leisure.
probably i worry too much; it's a very specific set-up and it would require getting past all of our detections first.
by the way, the dm said no to anklet of translation because he didn't want it to become too cheap (he's never played at high level before and he's not the best expert on game mechanics; he's taken some questionable decisions on what to allow and what not, but what the hell, he's a good dm and no one is perfect). i'm still waiting for approval on panic buttons, because i'd like to have some backup.

[Gnaeus]

Wait. You are 16th level? As a monk? Without a ring of freedom of movement or a item of polymorph or any of the other hard counters? That’s on you. You don’t need decent optimization to get strength 30 at level 16. You need to slap your arcane caster and tell him to Polymorph you into a giant with the pearl of power you bought him, then put on your strength belt.

In case this is the first time you have heard it, monks are actively bad. They are bad as defensive characters, their supposed strength. There are high op ways to make them better, like wildshape, but it doesn’t sound like you are doing those. There are standard things that every high level muggle should have, but it doesn’t sound like you have invested in those either.

The moral of this story isn’t “don’t use wall of thorns”. It’s “don’t play tier 5 muggles at low op without making plans to deal with effects that have been around half your adventuring career, and if you do don’t blame the Druid 9”.

You didn’t build a character that should be able to resist magical attacks with impunity unless high op wizard. You took one of the games worst characters at dealing with spellcasters and dipped some junk to boost saves. There is literally no tier 3 character at 16 who can’t RotFL a wall of thorns, and most of the tier 4s if built moderately decently. Heck, even monks have a counter. The D Door you used. And when you point out that it is a weak effect that you don’t get nearly enough uses of, yes. Because monk.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm going to disagree with Freedom of Movement overriding it, but I tend to take a less liberal reading of that spell. FoM allows you to act normally despite spells and effects on your character, and overcome the impeding environmental effects of being underwater, but no other environmental effects. Spells like Web inflict conditions on the creatures trapped within such as entangled, and FoM is able to overcome those conditions.

However, FoM doesn't allow you to pass through a Wall of Force or a Wall of Stone, it doesn't allow you to pass through mundane brambles, or squeeze through a 4-inch square opening in a wall or similar. It doesn't allow you to escape being buried in snow from a Call Avalanche as that's an instantaneous effect that creates mundane snow. It doesn't allow you to overcome any environmental effects except being underwater. It doesn't even allow you to escape mundane bindings or manacles, because that's not included in what the spell says it allows you to overcome.

Wall of Thorns creates an environmental effect, it doesn't impose any conditions on your character, it's just in the way like a Wall of Stone or a Wall of Force. It does have an added set of rules on how to push through it, but FoM doesn't say it allows you to overcome that type of check or obstacle (it only says grapple and escape artist checks for a grapple or pin for checks you automatically make).

[Kurald Galain]

my character had some bad experiences with magic in the past and is trying hard to resist magic. i picked a monk for high saving throws, touch ac and spell resistance.
You should ask to use this monk (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/monk-unchained). Among other things, it gets to dimdoor at least five times per day, and has pounce...


I'm going to disagree with Freedom of Movement overriding it,
FoM explicitly lets you walk through spells such as Solid Fog and Web; so it's not much of a stretch to allow WoT as well. Wall of Force is another matter.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'm going to disagree with Freedom of Movement overriding it, but I tend to take a less liberal reading of that spell. FoM allows you to act normally despite spells and effects on your character, and overcome the impeding environmental effects of being underwater, but no other environmental effects. Spells like Web inflict conditions on the creatures trapped within such as entangled, and FoM is able to overcome those conditions. I have to disagree. On actual environmental conditions I actually agree with a stricter reading. But FoM appears pretty clear as to how it helps characters trapped within a spell effect. Notice that FoM also overcomes Solid Fog, which imposes no condition. Similar to Solid Fog, Wall of Thorns decidedly does not just create an environmental effect. It has a listed duration, it's specifically not a bunch of plants, it's immune to regular fire, it's ridiculously durable, and its effects are generally far stronger than just putting plants in someone's way. It's most definitely a spell effect that directly impedes movement.

I also agree that true physical barriers such as Wall of Stone are different and it would be a stretch to say me bumping into a wall is "impeding" my motion. But being physically restrained by a bunch of magical thorny bushes is so very similar to Web and Solid Fog, which are just examples, that it beggars belief to exclude Wall of Thorns from that list.

Ultimately Gnaeus is right though, that the easiest counter is cheap teleportation and not a ring that costs 40k. In my experience, WoT and other impeders are better used on things that don't wear magic items for that very reason.

[Gnaeus]

Yeah, wall of stone is just a mundane wall that happens to be created by a spell. Wall of thorns is a dispellable magical spell effect that is pretty much indistinguishable from web. Both are conjuration: creation creating magical barriers impeding your movement. It isn’t even a real plant. If FOM let’s you walk through web fibers it should let you walk through thorns. I’d also allow IHS to affect it, under either the raw or the “can you imagine Conan breaking through it with a flex of mighty thews” interpretation. (Ninjas (are also a class that can ignore WoT))



Ultimately Gnaeus is right though, that the easiest counter is cheap teleportation and not a ring that costs 40k. In my experience, WoT and other impeders are better used on things that don't wear magic items for that very reason.

Yeah I didn’t feel so confident about the ring until I realized level 16. Or a pearl of power or some other similar way to get it.

[Telok]

I feel that unless you're stuck in a core only game most characters should have a form of alternate movement (incorporeal, shadow, tp, earth gide, etc.) by around 9th to 12th level. Just to deal with stuff like hard grapples, nasty environment, and quickened wall of sand + wall of force against the cave wall.

[Hiro Quester]

Of course Freedom of Movement counters Wall of Thorns. It's right there in the spell description:

Creatures with the ability to pass through overgrown areas unhindered can pass through a wall of thorns at normal speed without taking damage

Edit:
What is debatable is whether a druid's Woodland Stride enables you to pass through your Wall of Thorns spell, based on this criterion.


Starting at 2nd level, a druid may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect her
This clause and the clause on WoT seem to contradict one another.

If you read Woodland stride as "like natural thorns" and not "thorns that have been magically manipulated", then Wall of Thorns becomes an awesome BFC for a druid; one that hampers everyone else, but you can ignore.

And a druid with Heart of Water active can get FoM cheaply anyway.

[King of Nowhere]

Wait. You are 16th level? As a monk? Without a ring of freedom of movement or a item of polymorph or any of the other hard counters? That’s on you. You don’t need decent optimization to get strength 30 at level 16. You need to slap your arcane caster and tell him to Polymorph you into a giant with the pearl of power you bought him, then put on your strength belt.



freedom of movement i didn't get because i don't need it. besides the wall of thorns, i never faced anything else that would impair my movement that i couldn't either resist or evade or outgrapple. i just have other priorities for 40k gp.
as for polimorphing, it would certainly help my build - especially for reach, since i use tripping - but i decided that's higher op than i wanted. i am already effective enough at my roles.

and your concept of what is "decent" optimization clearly differs from mine. consider that after years on this forum i could definitely optimize higher than that, but
1) i don't like that power level. I don't want to play a boring invincible hero (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InvincibleHero?from=Main.BoringInvincibleHero). I want to have weaknesses and limitations, and having to struggle (or to rely on other party members) to overcome them.
2) most other people in my gaming group don't have much mechanical skill. especially the DM. I intentionally picked a weak build to not risk breaking the table.

that said, if you can cast wall of thorns on someone's square to effectively immobilize him, it still seems a fair bit stronger than what a 5th level spell alone should do.

[Kurald Galain]

that said, if you can cast wall of thorns on someone's square to effectively immobilize him, it still seems a fair bit stronger than what a 5th level spell alone should do.
Why would it be? There are lower-level spells that will effectively lock half the enemies out of combat, such as Stinking Cloud. I don't see any problem with 5th-level spells being good at that.

[Gnaeus]

freedom of movement i didn't get because i don't need it. besides the wall of thorns, i never faced anything else that would impair my movement that i couldn't either resist or evade or outgrapple. i just have other priorities for 40k gp.
as for polimorphing, it would certainly help my build - especially for reach, since i use tripping - but i decided that's higher op than i wanted. i am already effective enough at my roles.

and your concept of what is "decent" optimization clearly differs from mine. consider that after years on this forum i could definitely optimize higher than that, but
1) i don't like that power level. I don't want to play a boring invincible hero (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InvincibleHero?from=Main.BoringInvincibleHero). I want to have weaknesses and limitations, and having to struggle (or to rely on other party members) to overcome them.
2) most other people in my gaming group don't have much mechanical skill. especially the DM. I intentionally picked a weak build to not risk breaking the table.

that said, if you can cast wall of thorns on someone's square to effectively immobilize him, it still seems a fair bit stronger than what a 5th level spell alone should do.

So you picked a weak build, specifically to struggle. You didn’t take competent gear that every competent high level character takes, presumably same. You wanted to rely on party assistance, which either they didn’t or couldn’t. And then you came here to complain.

That spell is doing exactly what a 5th level spell should do. It barely slowed you down and wouldn’t have slowed down any P.C. with a decent class, or any P.C. with moderate optimization. If you want to rely on party members, where’s the dispel magic. Heck, level 16, where’s the quickened dispel magic. It’s not even a speed bump.

[ciopo]

freedom of movement i didn't get because i don't need it. besides the wall of thorns, i never faced anything else that would impair my movement that i couldn't either resist or evade or outgrapple. i just have other priorities for 40k gp.
as for polimorphing, it would certainly help my build - especially for reach, since i use tripping - but i decided that's higher op than i wanted. i am already effective enough at my roles.

and your concept of what is "decent" optimization clearly differs from mine. consider that after years on this forum i could definitely optimize higher than that, but
1) i don't like that power level. I don't want to play a boring invincible hero (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InvincibleHero?from=Main.BoringInvincibleHero). I want to have weaknesses and limitations, and having to struggle (or to rely on other party members) to overcome them.
2) most other people in my gaming group don't have much mechanical skill. especially the DM. I intentionally picked a weak build to not risk breaking the table.

that said, if you can cast wall of thorns on someone's square to effectively immobilize him, it still seems a fair bit stronger than what a 5th level spell alone should do.

With all due respect to your concept, how is a character "wary of magic" NOT have a "need" for freedom of movement? in it's long career, he hasn't have been webbed once? Wall of thorns is stronger than web, but not outlandishly so for being a 5th circle spell.
web/entangle and other of their ilks are battlefield controls wizarding 101, precisely because even if you pass the save, they are quite crippling to martials/smashies.

[Troacctid]

If you don't want to eliminate all your weaknesses or whatever, you should consider an item with limited daily uses, like a third eye freedom. That way, you have it for emergencies, but you're not completely immune—and instead of setting you back 40k gold, it's less than a tenth as much.

That said, if you're a single-class monk, you should already have abundant step for this situation.

[King of Nowhere]

Why would it be? There are lower-level spells that will effectively lock half the enemies out of combat, such as Stinking Cloud. I don't see any problem with 5th-level spells being good at that.

those spells have a saving throw. it's just so difficult to resist a wall of thorns with the resources most people have at level 9.
freedom of movement works, but you can't afford the ring yet, and it's single target. i doubt the cleric is preparing it more than once. dispel magic works, if you pass the dispel check. single use teleportation works, but it's not so common to have it at level 9, and you lose the round for it. the STR check is too high to be done reliably even by optimized melee specialists.
basically, worst case scenario: druid casts wall of thorns, wizard casts dispel magic and dissolves it, it's an action for an action. anything else., and it's a net gain.

EDIT:

So you picked a weak build, specifically to struggle. You didn’t take competent gear that every competent high level character takes, presumably same. You wanted to rely on party assistance, which either they didn’t or couldn’t. And then you came here to complain.

my gaming situation was irrelevant. i just brought it up because others were making assumptions about it. I'm not complaining about my gaming situation.1
I'm just thinking that a spell that locks down an entire party selectively and the only realistic way out of it is a d-door seemed way too strong for 5th level. so, my first question was "does this spell have some hidden weakness that makes it easier to escape?" and i was answered that dispelling also works (there's an argument to be made about freedom of movement). so i see why it's inferior to forcecage, but still seems stronger than a 5th level spell should be. especially since it does not require any combo or optimization or smart use to be effective.
Yes, at high optimization it's not a big deal because you have plenty of even more powerful effects, but those more powerful effects generally require some combo or can be resisted by some opposed roll; basically, they require optimization to work. i can accept that an heavily metamagicked force orb can instagib characters with lots of resistances, because it's a splatbook spell that requires the aforementioned metamagic to work effectively. i can accept that true strike + dimensional anchor + forcecage would be effective on most targets, because it's a multispell combo.
wall of thorns require absolutely nothing. it's a core spell that does not require any strategy or smart use.


With all due respect to your concept, how is a character "wary of magic" NOT have a "need" for freedom of movement? in it's long career, he hasn't have been webbed once? Wall of thorns is stronger than web, but not outlandishly so for being a 5th circle spell.
web/entangle and other of their ilks are battlefield controls wizarding 101, precisely because even if you pass the save, they are quite crippling to martials/smashies.
being entangled is not a big deal; some mild penalty and halved movement won't stop me from reaching my enemies. they can stop you entirely only if you fail the saving throw, which for me is not a problem.


If you don't want to eliminate all your weaknesses or whatever, you should consider an item with limited daily uses, like a third eye freedom. That way, you have it for emergencies, but you're not completely immune—and instead of setting you back 40k gold, it's less than a tenth as much.

will probably look into it the next time i have a big pile of money to spend.
but, as i said, i didn't mean to discuss my character or campaign, merely the specific spell wall of thorns and whether its limitations were enough to justify it being 5th level

1 now, if we want to delve even deeper into this tangent of why i couldn't have it dispelled (putting aside that we didn't realize it could be dispelled at the table), i was actually alone there. i had decided to use my downtime to walk around with a big glowing sign saying "to [big bad's name] lackeys: [charname] is here, alone. come & get me":smallsmile:
hey, the casters always have plenty to do in their downtime, gathering intelligence or getting new spells. i could do nothing of the sort and i lack intelligence-gathering skills, but i am really good at surviving an ambush, so i decided that was the best way to gather intelligence on our enemies :smallbiggrin: it's the same result of scry-and-die: you start away from your enemies not knowing where they are, and you end up knowing exactly where they are, and close enough to engage :smalltongue:
I got ambushed by a group of 6 level 11 foes, which is decent odds against a level 16 alone. but my defensive build works better against multiple weaker foes; i didn't lose a single hp. the wall of thorns was the only thing that actully inconvenienced me.

[Kurald Galain]

those spells have a saving throw.

Yes. That's why they're two or three spell levels lower.

[InvisibleBison]

it's just so difficult to resist a wall of thorns with the resources most people have at level 9

That seems fairly appropriate, yes? At level 9, wall of thorns is a big gun, something you only use against powerful opponents. It would be fairly poor design for there to be some easy way for 9th level characters to avoid it.

[rel]

Wall of Thorns isn't especially powerful compared to the other BFC spells that 3.5 offers.
As an example, solid fog is only 4th level and it reduces movement to 5 feet per round with no save and also blocks line of sight, penalizes attack rolls and negates mundane ranged attacks.

Wall of Thorns is an example of the overpowered nature of spellcasting when compared to mundane power in 3.x but modifying it in isolation doesn't change anything because a hypothetical caster can just pick another equally powerful option in response.

Modifying ALL powerful options is a solution for reigning in spellcasting, but it's a lot of work, it's difficult to determine a good place to draw the line and it's very easy to run into other problems while trying to solve the first one.

[Kelb_Panthera]

freedom of movement i didn't get because i don't need it. besides the wall of thorns, i never faced anything else that would impair my movement that i couldn't either resist or evade or outgrapple. i just have other priorities for 40k gp.

If the solutions are available, and you choose not to avail yourself of them, that's on you not the spell. Outside of a core only game there are -myriad- solutions to this problem, most of them available by the time WoT becomes a thing and more than a few well before. As a high level monk, you can like as not simply jump over the bloody thing unless the caster chooses to sacrifice width or breadth for height. That you don't have flight at level 16 strikes me as odd too. I have a lot more conservative idea of "decent" optimization than a lot of folks around here and that's something I expect on nearly every character by 10, at least X/day if not always.

Anyway, having FoM available as a panic button for extremely limited duration and limited times per day is too cheap to really complain about. I agree that the full-on ring of freedom is a bit much if you're otherwise difficult to impede, though.


as for polimorphing, it would certainly help my build - especially for reach, since i use tripping - but i decided that's higher op than i wanted. i am already effective enough at my roles.

While it's good in general, I'm not sure how polymorph actually helps in this situation other than by boosting your strength. As was pointed out upthread, even a prodigous strength doesn't give great odds for penetrating the wall on its own. You really want something that boosts strength checks directly as well, if you're gonna go that way. Given you're a tripper, I'd think you'd be on the lookout for those anyway. Torc of the titans is +5 a couple times per day for fairly cheap.


that said, if you can cast wall of thorns on someone's square to effectively immobilize him, it still seems a fair bit stronger than what a 5th level spell alone should do.

But it's really not though. Solid fog is a 4th level spell that's worse. No save, no resistance, your speed and strength don't matter, you're moving 5 feet a round until you reach the edge and you don't even know which way it is because you can't see beyond the adjacent squares. At least with wall of thorns you know which direction to struggle and can be free and around the wall in relatively short order, dice allowing. SF is just a straight "you're wasting the next few rounds if you don't have a counter effect."


@Hiro Quester WRT WoT vs Woodland Stride, woodland stride wins because of the clause in WoT. It explicitly does not impede characters that have the ability to move through difficult woodland terrain unimpeded, which woodland stride gives you. If it didn't have that clause, woodland stride wouldn't let you through because of its own clause that says it doesn't work against magic undergrowth.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Huh.


In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don’t have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (1 square). In such a case, you may use a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it’s not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally. (You can’t take advantage of this rule to move through impassable terrain or to move when all movement is prohibited to you.)

Since wall of thorns isn't "impassible", I think you're entitled to at least 5 ft of movement for your full round action. OTOH, there are arguments to be made that this is a separate full round action that can't be taken if you try the Str check, or that failing the Str check means "all movement is prohibited to you". On the third hand, you might be able to take that 5 ft full round action instead of trying to force your way through the wall, making it a risk/reward choice. Still, it seems like a fair, reasonable, and arguably even RAW nerf for preventing humanoids from being trapped for eternity (which in combat, multiple turns might as well be).

[Gnaeus]

While it's good in general, I'm not sure how polymorph actually helps in this situation other than by boosting your strength. As was pointed out upthread, even a prodigous strength doesn't give great odds for penetrating the wall on its own. You really want something that boosts strength checks directly as well, if you're gonna go that way. Given you're a tripper, I'd think you'd be on the lookout for those anyway. Torc of the titans is +5 a couple times per day for fairly cheap..

Well you could get a burrow speed.

You might get a bonus of some kind for being fine. Or an ooze. Not RAW but worth asking a DM.

And Str really depends on how high we get it. A sun giant (str 37) on a muggle with a str+ item is already in the 40s. That might be all we can hope for on a monk, but other low tier characters could use rage or UMD or other to kick that higher.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well you could get a burrow speed.

Don't see how that's any more or less helpful than a fly speed. Either you're not caught in the thorns, and should already have a way around it, or you are and the burrow speed is just as impeded as any other movement mode.


You might get a bonus of some kind for being fine. Or an ooze. Not RAW but worth asking a DM.

Given all the workarounds that already exist, I wouldn't be inclined to give any such bonus. Don't mess with casters if you're not prepared to deal with caster crap.


And Str really depends on how high we get it. A sun giant (str 37) on a muggle with a str+ item is already in the 40s. That might be all we can hope for on a monk, but other low tier characters could use rage or UMD or other to kick that higher.

with a +6 belt that comes to 43; a +16. Hits on a 9 for 5ft of movement. +6 is a longshot at 9. Even a +4 isn't guaranteed. It's par-for-the-course at 16 though.

In any case, the HD cap on polymorph matters too. Sun Giant, for example, isn't even an option until both the caster's CL and the target's HD are both 13.

[Gnaeus]

Don't see how that's any more or less helpful than a fly speed. Either you're not caught in the thorns, and should already have a way around it, or you are and the burrow speed is just as impeded as any other movement mode.

See I see that as a sure thing. There is no way a wall of thorns prevents you from burrowing under it. (Assuming that it is on something you can normally burrow through)You could sculpt it to be in the air but not into solid matter. I wouldn’t blink at it, and would in fact be pretty upset with a negative ruling.



Given all the workarounds that already exist, I wouldn't be inclined to give any such bonus. Don't mess with casters if you're not prepared to deal with caster crap.

Some tables are more RAW. Some tables like workarounds. I would at least entertain the idea that a mass of finger length thorns isn’t a barrier to something the size of a beetle.




with a +6 belt that comes to 43; a +16. Hits on a 9 for 5ft of movement. +6 is a longshot at 9. Even a +4 isn't guaranteed. It's par-for-the-course at 16 though.

In any case, the HD cap on polymorph matters too. Sun Giant, for example, isn't even an option until both the caster's CL and the target's HD are both 13.

Well you would expect a 5th level spell to be more debilitating at 9 than 13 than 16. Especially when using a 4th level spell to counter that already has at least one better way to operate (burrow)

But that 43 is hardly our upper bound at even decent op at 9-16. Heroism, luckstone, UMD on scroll like bite of the WereX, rerolls, rage. There are a whole bunch of common buffs/feats/abilities that should be cranking physical rolls for the 1/4ish of classes that can’t just Nope the barrier.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Don't see how that's any more or less helpful than a fly speed. Either you're not caught in the thorns, and should already have a way around it, or you are and the burrow speed is just as impeded as any other movement mode. Thing is, unless a spell effect says otherwise, blocking line of effect (which the ground does) blocks the effect, so there are no thorns underground. Moving 5' down (for a Medium or smaller creature) means you're out of the effect and can then move normally (for a given value of 'normal' while burrowing). Much better than moving 10'+ if the caster has littered the battlefield around you with thorns.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Thing is, unless a spell effect says otherwise, blocking line of effect (which the ground does) blocks the effect, so there are no thorns underground. Moving 5' down (for a Medium or smaller creature) means you're out of the effect and can then move normally (for a given value of 'normal' while burrowing). Much better than moving 10'+ if the caster has littered the battlefield around you with thorns.

And? If you're already caught up in the thorns, you can't move 5ft down out of it anymore than you can move 5ft back into the open air on one side without making the str check. Going around is going around. A burrow speed might save you a little distance going under if you're not stuck already but that's as much a function of the battlefield its cast in as it is one of the spell itself.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

And? If you're already caught up in the thorns, you can't move 5ft down out of it anymore than you can move 5ft back into the open air on one side without making the str check. Going around is going around. A burrow speed might save you a little distance going under if you're not stuck already but that's as much a function of the battlefield its cast in as it is one of the spell itself.I never said otherwise. What I did say was that moving the 5' to get underground was much easier than moving 10'+ laterally, if the caster wrapped the wall around you that way.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I never said otherwise. What I did say was that moving the 5' to get underground was much easier than moving 10'+ laterally, if the caster wrapped the wall around you that way.

That's a soft maybe at best. Things that grant burrow speeds and even creatures with burrow speeds tend to have values lower than other movement modes.