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Threeshades
2007-10-22, 09:38 AM
I just tried to comprehend the attack rules for creatures with natural attacks.
Well for by-the-book monsters it seemed quite easy, but conveying these rules to a character with class levels and differen natural attacks seemed quite difficult to me.

Let's say i have a medium sized level 10 Half-Dragon Fighter (ECL 13) who fights exclusively with his natural weapons (and for easier handling does NOT have any natural weapons beyond those granted by the half dragon template), and he has the multiattack feat.
He has got a BAB of +10/+5, 2 claws, 1 bite attack and (as just said before) mulitattack (only -2 to secondary attacks), and lets say his strength is 24 (so an ability mod. of 7).
Now how many attacks (when making a full attack action) of which kind does he get at what total attack bonus (and what strength bonus to damage) if he is using:
a) the Bite as the primary attack?
b) the claws as the primary?

I looked at the hippogriff as example when trying to understand the rules.
The hippogriffs full attack says:

Full Attack: 2 claws +6 melee (1d4+4) and bite +1 melee (1d8+2)
So i understood the claws are the primary attack and when he is using these as primary attack, then they both seem to hit at full attack bonus.

So for my Half-Dragon fighter i would have converted it like this:
Full Attack with claws as primary attack: 2 Claws +17 (1d4+7 each) melee, 1 Claw +12 (1d4+7) melee, 1 Bite +15 (1d6+3) melee
Full Attack with bite as primary attack: 1 Bite +17 (1d6+7) melee, 1 Bite +12 (1d6+7) melee, 2 Claws +15 (1d4+3 each) melee

(the additional 1 claw/bite attack at +12 would be the additional attack granted by the class levels BAB)

Is this correct?


----------------------------------------------


And a second question also regarding this issue in some way:
In case of a standard attack action, how many attacks am I allowed to make when using claws as primary attack and how many when using bite as primary attack?
when having claws as primary: can i use both claws + a secondary bite, or if i can use only one claw as primary, could i theoretically also use the other claw as secondary attack?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-22, 10:14 AM
I just tried to comprehend the attack rules for creatures with natural attacks.
Well for by-the-book monsters it seemed quite easy, but conveying these rules to a character with class levels and differen natural attacks seemed quite difficult to me.

Let's say i have a medium sized level 10 Half-Dragon Fighter (ECL 13) who fights exclusively with his natural weapons (and for easier handling does NOT have any natural weapons beyond those granted by the half dragon template), and he has the multiattack feat.
He has got a BAB of +10/+5, 2 claws, 1 bite attack and (as just said before) mulitattack (only -2 to secondary attacks), and lets say his strength is 24 (so an ability mod. of 7).
Now how many attacks (when making a full attack action) of which kind does he get at what total attack bonus (and what strength bonus to damage) if he is using:
a) the Bite as the primary attack?
b) the claws as the primary?

I looked at the hippogriff as example when trying to understand the rules.
The hippogriffs full attack says:

So i understood the claws are the primary attack and when he is using these as primary attack, then they both seem to hit at full attack bonus.

So for my Half-Dragon fighter i would have converted it like this:
Full Attack with claws as primary attack: 2 Claws +17 (1d4+7 each) melee, 1 Claw +12 (1d4+7) melee, 1 Bite +15 (1d6+3) melee
Full Attack with bite as primary attack: 1 Bite +17 (1d6+7) melee, 1 Bite +12 (1d6+7) melee, 2 Claws +15 (1d4+3 each) melee

(the additional 1 claw/bite attack at +12 would be the additional attack granted by the class levels BAB)

Is this correct?


Not quite.

The creature entry, or template in this case, will state which weapon is the primary. In the Half-Dragon case the claws are the primary weapon.


Attack: A half-dragon has two claw attacks and a bite attack, and the claws are the primary natural weapon.

Natural weapons do not get iterative attacks from a high BAB, so during a full attack you would only be able to make two claw attacks and a bite attack.
The primary attack, the claws, get the full STR bonus to damage, while the secondary attack, the bite, only gets half.

You full attack routine with natural weapons would be:
2 claws +17 (1d4+7) and bite +15 (1d6+3)

If you want to use your iterative attacks you would have to use a manufactured weapon in one claw or unarmed strikes.

You full attack routine with a long sword and natural weapons would be:
Longsword +17/+12 (1d8+7) and 1 claw +15 (1d4+3) and bite +15 (1d6+3)



And a second question also regarding this issue in some way:
In case of a standard attack action, how many attacks am I allowed to make when using claws as primary attack and how many when using bite as primary attack?
when having claws as primary: can i use both claws + a secondary bite, or if i can use only one claw as primary, could i theoretically also use the other claw as secondary attack?


You can only make an standard attack with ONE claw or the bite.
To use more than one natural weapon requires that you use the full attack, unless you have some special ability or feat that allows it of course.
This is also what you will see if you take a look under "Attack" in the Hippogriff entry.

And as mentioned above the claws are always the primary natural attack.


I hope this helped clearing things up.

Threeshades
2007-10-22, 11:45 AM
Not quite.

The creature entry, or template in this case, will state which weapon is the primary. In the Half-Dragon case the claws are the primary weapon.



Natural weapons do not get iterative attacks from a high BAB, so during a full attack you would only be able to make two claw attacks and a bite attack.
The primary attack, the claws, get the full STR bonus to damage, while the secondary attack, the bite, only gets half.

You full attack routine with natural weapons would be:
2 claws +17 (1d4+7) and bite +15 (1d6+3)

If you want to use your iterative attacks you would have to use a manufactured weapon in one claw or unarmed strikes.

You full attack routine with a long sword and natural weapons would be:
Longsword +17/+12 (1d8+7) and 1 claw +15 (1d4+3) and bite +15 (1d6+3)




You can only make an standard attack with ONE claw or the bite.
To use more than one natural weapon requires that you use the full attack, unless you have some special ability or feat that allows it of course.
This is also what you will see if you take a look under "Attack" in the Hippogriff entry.

And as mentioned above the claws are always the primary natural attack.


I hope this helped clearing things up.

Thanks a lot that cleared things up quite a lot.

So i guess at high levels I would fall quite far behind average if i was trying to concentrate my character on fighting with only natural attacks, wouldnt i? I mean (in for example a ECL 20 party) i would be able to make 3 attacks, 2 at full BAB and 1 at -2, but a half dragon fighter using a single longsword (one-handed) would have 1 attack at full BAB, 1 at -5, one at -10, one at -15, and two at -2 (free claw and bite)=6


Well maybe i will get the dragon tail feat for my half-dragon that would even that out a little with better attack bonuses but still slightly less attacks (tail + bite + 2 claws = 4)

Well, however, characters dont always need to be ultra strong as long as they are cool.


Just a quick question in the end: is a natural attack also possible as chosen weapon for weapon focus? And if so, does the same apply for Melee Weapon Mastery?

EDIT:
And while we're at it do I get additional attack with natural attacks if im using feats like whirlwind attack or (great) cleave? And if so, do i get them with secondary natural attacks, or with any of them

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-22, 04:43 PM
Thanks a lot that cleared things up quite a lot.

So i guess at high levels I would fall quite far behind average if i was trying to concentrate my character on fighting with only natural attacks, wouldnt i? I mean (in for example a ECL 20 party) i would be able to make 3 attacks, 2 at full BAB and 1 at -2, but a half dragon fighter using a single longsword (one-handed) would have 1 attack at full BAB, 1 at -5, one at -10, one at -15, and two at -2 (free claw and bite)=6


Well maybe i will get the dragon tail feat for my half-dragon that would even that out a little with better attack bonuses but still slightly less attacks (tail + bite + 2 claws = 4)

Well, however, characters dont always need to be ultra strong as long as they are cool.

Although power does not equal fun, falling to far behind the power level of the others are often not very fun.

It is hard to optimize a Half-Dragon Fighter, but allowing LA buy-off will help a little and there are also a few feats that can make you a bit more effective.

Improved Multiattack (Draconomicon, Epic Level Handbook, Savage Species) will reduce the penaty for your secondary attacks to 0.

Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike can grant you additional claw attacks. (Draconomicon)



Just a quick question in the end: is a natural attack also possible as chosen weapon for weapon focus? And if so, does the same apply for Melee Weapon Mastery?

EDIT:
And while we're at it do I get additional attack with natural attacks if im using feats like whirlwind attack or (great) cleave? And if so, do i get them with secondary natural attacks, or with any of them

Weapon Focus and Melee Weapon Mastery works fine with natural weapons also and you will also be able to use Cleave and Whirlwind attack.

Natural Weapons function almost like manufactured weapons, you just don't get iterative attacks with them.

Threeshades
2007-10-22, 05:16 PM
Although power does not equal fun, falling to far behind the power level of the others are often not very fun.

It is hard to optimize a Half-Dragon Fighter, but allowing LA buy-off will help a little and there are also a few feats that can make you a bit more effective.

Improved Multiattack (Draconomicon, Epic Level Handbook, Savage Species) will reduce the penaty for your secondary attacks to 0.

Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike can grant you additional claw attacks. (Draconomicon)

You, Sir are a well of wisdom and insight.

Do I have to be epic level for improved multiattack? As far as I know its listed as epic feat, It doesnt have epic level (or any high level for that matter) in its prerequisites. But i dont know much about epic feats, i could imagine its standard prerequisite for all epic feats.

I will take a look at the rapid strike feats too. Sounds very useful.


Weapon Focus and Melee Weapon Mastery works fine with natural weapons also and you will also be able to use Cleave and Whirlwind attack.

Natural Weapons function almost like manufactured weapons, you just don't get iterative attacks with them.

Good to know, thanks! :smallsmile:
now I'll just have to see, where and how i should spread my feats. I thought about taking dragon tail as a starting feat for another natural attack. Also dragon breath for some more ranged blasting (also spares me the gold expenditure for a ranged weapon) and improved natural attack (claws).
I was wondering if i should go with the weapon focus tree for my claws and also look to get great cleave. The question is, if i should just drop all that cleave and focus stuff and stick with natural weapon specific feats. Maybe even drop improved natural attack and/or dragon breath/tail

Also i dont know how many of those feats you mentioned are actually fighter bonus feats so it might be a bit problematic getting a nice array of them :smalleek:

I should first take a look at them. Thanks so far.



EDIT:
Not nice, Rapid Attack is not in the Crystalkeep Indexes

Jasdoif
2007-10-22, 05:38 PM
Do I have to be epic level for improved multiattack? As far as I know its listed as epic feat, It doesnt have epic level (or any high level for that matter) in its prerequisites. But i dont know much about epic feats, i could imagine its standard prerequisite for all epic feats.Improved Multiattack is not an epic feat. It doesn't have the [Epic] descriptor, and it's listed after a line that says "These feats are not epic feats, so they may be selected by a character any time he or she could select a new feat."

Threeshades
2007-10-22, 05:45 PM
Improved Multiattack is not an epic feat. It doesn't have the [Epic] descriptor, and it's listed after a line that says "These feats are not epic feats, so they may be selected by a character any time he or she could select a new feat."

well that changes things in my favor. Thank you. :smallsmile:

However i still dont know anything about rapid attack. And I cant seem to find any online SRDs containing it.

EDIT:
Maybe i should have been looking for rapidstrike instead. :smallannoyed: Silly threeshades.

Edit2:
Still no findings. Bought the book. That easy :smallconfused:

Jasdoif
2007-10-22, 05:59 PM
Still no findings. Bought the book. That easy :smallconfused:Draconomicon is a rather fun read.

Basically Rapidstrike lets you make a single iterative attack with one of your natural weapons, complete with the usual -5 for an iterative attack. Improved Rapidstrike looks to let you make a whole set of iterative attacks with one of your natural weapons, like you can with manufactured weapons (the whole +16/+11/+6/+1 thing).

Threeshades
2007-10-22, 06:11 PM
Draconomicon is a rather fun read.

Basically Rapidstrike lets you make a single iterative attack with one of your natural weapons, complete with the usual -5 for an iterative attack. Improved Rapidstrike looks to let you make a whole set of iterative attacks with one of your natural weapons, like you can with manufactured weapons (the whole +16/+11/+6/+1 thing).

oooh neat. The book (along with the Book of vile darkness :smallbiggrin: ) should arrive thursday. Then I can finally make my scratching and biting little dragonfellow. :smallamused: (i hate how the order in the smilieshortcut menu changes all the time)

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-22, 06:34 PM
Yup, Draconomicon ist doch sehr schŲn.

Improved Natural Attack will increase your claw damage from 1d4 to 1d6 (+1 to average damage), which is hardly worth the feat investment when there are so many other options.

I would also generally stay away from Whirlwind and Great Cleave. Cleave might be useful though.

Threeshades
2007-10-22, 07:22 PM
Thanks, yes maybe the d6 instead of d4 isnt really worth it. How about the focus tree though (i know weapon focus isnt much better than improved natural, its als just +1, but specialization and mastery seem rather useful to me)

As it seems i cannot spend my fighter bonus feats directly on my natural attacks anyway, so i will have to get something else.

At the moment my list of feats is (my base creature is human):
1 Dragon Tail
1 Multiattack
3 Improved Multiattack
6 Dragon Breath
9 ?
Fighter Bonus
1 Weapon Focus (claws)
2 Power Attack
4 Weapon specialization (claws)
6 Cleave
8 Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing)
10 ?

If it is possible to take Rapidstrike for any of the two ?-levels i would insert it there. But for level 9 it would require a BAB of less than 10 and for lvl 10 it would need to be accessible as a fighter bonus feat.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-23, 02:09 AM
It is a little strange that only multiclass characters would meet the BAB requirement at level 12.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to house rule that this feat could be taken as a fighter bonus feat though.

Threeshades
2007-10-23, 04:42 AM
Yes that should be reasonable.

So
1 Dragon Tail
1 Multiattack
3 Improved Multiattack
6 Dragon Breath
9 ?

Fighter Bonus
1 Weapon Focus (claws)
2 Power Attack
4 Weapon specialization (claws)
6 Cleave
8 Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing)
10 Rapidstrike

Whjat would be a good choice for the level 9 feat? Since its a normal feat it could also be a dragonblood based feat from Races of The Dragon or maybe the draconomicon. Actually about these feats i would be hapy not to waste their slots with feats that i could as well take as fighter bonus

AtomicKitKat
2007-10-24, 02:39 AM
Meant to reply yesterday but got locked out by the regular board maintenance. If you're getting Dragon Tail from Races of the Dragon, Dragon Wings is also a valid choice. You lose out on having the attack, but you get mobility.

Alternatively, if you do keep the tail, look in Draconomicon for the various "Tail" Feats. I think "Shockwave" is based on the Savage Species "Stomp" Feat. Basically for a standard(?) action, you get to knock down everything in a semicircle around you. Useful if you have buddies ready to skewer them from just out of your range.:smallbiggrin:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-24, 02:53 AM
The "Tail" feats from Draconomicon either requires large size or the Tail Sweep attack, which is not granted by the Dragon Tail.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-24, 03:03 AM
Entangling Exhalation from RoD might put your breath weapon to good use. Battlefield control and damage, what more can you ask for. :smallwink:

After you have taken that you could also consider some of the Metabreath feats from Draconomicon.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-10-24, 03:57 AM
Half-Dragons only get their breath weapon once a day, so Metabreath feats seem fairly useless.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-24, 04:01 AM
Half-Dragons only get their breath weapon once a day, so Metabreath feats seem fairly useless.

Hence the reason Treeshades took Dragon Breath as the 6th level feat. :smallamused:

Ninja Chocobo
2007-10-24, 05:21 AM
Hence the reason Treeshades took Dragon Breath as the 6th level feat. :smallamused:

...
Hear that?
That's the sound of me being an idiot.

AtomicKitKat
2007-10-24, 10:51 AM
Find a way to get Large. It's almost always a benefit(and let's face it, those who would want to become Large seldom care about Hide, and are usually strong enough that the -1 to attack is irrelevant). :smallbiggrin:

Threeshades
2007-10-24, 02:59 PM
Since my base creature is human i can have 2 first level only feats, I actually thought about wings in ADDITION to the tail then my character would actually have almost all of a true dragon's traits (except the polymorphing)

that would actually be quite stylish. And after having a look at the Draconomicon it seems very apealing to me to have a half-dragon with as much draconicness as possible. +10 to jump checks is retty awesome (with my strength and jump skill, minus armor check penalty i would have a total of 32 on jump checks) maybe i could combine that with Raptor School or Leap Attack or whatever that feat was called.
Also the gliding ability is neat too ("You can run, but you can't glide!")

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-24, 03:13 PM
Conceptually the idea of Dragon Wings seems cool, but the feat is quite weak and requires Improved Dragon Wings before you can actually fly.

It is not difficult to cover the 10 feet of horizontal jump required for leap attack.

However, not everything is about power, sometimes you just want to look cool. :smallcool:

Threeshades
2007-10-24, 03:16 PM
Conceptually the idea of Dragon Wings seems cool, but the feat is quite weak and requires Improved Dragon Wings before you can actually fly.

It is not difficult to cover the 10 feet of horizontal jump required for leap attack.

However, not everything is about power, sometimes you just want to look cool. :smallcool:

I think i will go with that. Maybe later imporved dragon wings for actual flight, but gliding is still cool too. (as said before: "You can run, but you can't glide!" :smallamused: )

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-24, 03:36 PM
I think i will go with that. Maybe later imporved dragon wings for actual flight, but gliding is still cool too. (as said before: "You can run, but you can't glide!" :smallamused: )

Cool, just promise me that you will gloss over Entangling Exhalation and the Metabreath feats from Draconomicon before you make the final decision. :smallwink:

Threeshades
2007-10-24, 03:44 PM
Cool, just promise me that you will gloss over Entangling Exhalation and the Metabreath feats from Draconomicon before you make the final decision. :smallwink:

Havent checked metabreath feats yet, but i looked at entangling exhalation. Its pretty neat but maybe at a later time. The character will be in a game with a DM who has his DMing debut so i probably shouldnt surprise him with lots of neat little tricks from my side. :smallwink:

By the way are there any special rules for armor for winged and/or multi-armed characters? I mean i suppose at least normally A half dragon with a pair of wings large enough to carry his almost 200 pounds (my character is going to be almost maximum size for human and also quite heavy because of lots of muscles and scales, and a heavy tail and some wings of course) will have problems with fitting those things inside a chain shirt or anything.
So maybe such characters will need specially crafted armor (just like nonhumanoid characters do)
And if so, does that apply for magic armor too, or does that kind of armor adjust to its wearer (like magic rings an wondrous items)?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-24, 04:03 PM
Such a considerate player.:smallamused:

Base price for medium-sized non-humanoid armor is doubled. (You are a Dragon (Type is change by the Half-Dragon Template)). (Weight of the armor is unchanged)

Magic Armor does not adjust itself, so it needs to be crafted to fit your shape.

Threeshades
2007-10-24, 04:07 PM
Such a considerate player.:smallamused:

Base price for non-humanoid armor is doubled (You are a Dragon). (Weight is unchanged)


Magic Armor does not adjust itself, so it needs to be crafted to fit your shape.

No i just like to ask questions.

How about a dragonwrought kobold with wings? (as far as i remember they are monstrous humanoid with dragonblood subtype) do they also need nonhumanoid armor (were going to have one of those too)


Wait, if i'm dragon, im not humanoid any more so "... person" spells dont work on me. That's neat. Nobody shall charm me beneath a certain level :smallbiggrin:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-24, 04:09 PM
Monstrous Humanoids are not Humanoids either. It is two different types even though part of the name is the same.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-24, 04:11 PM
Wait, if i'm dragon, im not humanoid any more so "... person" spells dont work on me. That's neat. Nobody shall charm me beneath a certain level :smallbiggrin:

However, there are also drawbacks, since certain buff spells won't work either.
E.g. Enlarge Person just to name one of the more popular.

Jasdoif
2007-10-24, 04:12 PM
Monstrous Humanoids are not Humanoids either. It is two different types even though part of the name is the same.Wait. Does "nonhumanoid" in this case refer to type, or general shape? Monstrous humanoids are generally humanoid shaped, I think....

Threeshades
2007-10-24, 04:21 PM
However, there are also drawbacks, since certain buff spells won't work either.
E.g. Enlarge Person just to name one of the more popular.

Bulls Strength is enough for me. And just between you and me, were playing 3.0, where enlarge person is still enlarge :smallsmile:

I always thought monstrous humanoids are humanoids with the addition "monstrous". Anyway it does make sense for centaurs for example not to be humanoid.


Talking about 3.0. In 3.0 all half-dragon types have individual damage and DCs for their breath weapons and I realized Draconomicon (at least the one i have) is written for 3.0 but the half-dragon types listed theire have only the energy type and immunities listed but no DCs and no breath weapon damage. How was that supposed to be handled (i mean im most certainly doing to stick with silver dragon because it matche the 3.5 half dragons most closely and has a nice damage even if not as much as Gold Dragons but still those would be interesting to know)

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-24, 04:23 PM
Wait. Does "nonhumanoid" in this case refer to type, or general shape? Monstrous humanoids are generally humanoid shaped, I think....

There is no reference to shape or appearance (except for size).


ARMOR FOR UNUSUAL CREATURES

Armor and shields for unusually big creatures, unusually little creatures, and nonhumanoid creatures have different costs and weights from those given on Table: Armor and Shields.

Humanoid is a specific Type and if you are not of this type you have to pay twice the price.

Giants are also generally of a shape similar to humans, maybe even more so than a Monstrous Humanoid with wings, but even they would have to pay the increased cost.

Threeshades
2007-10-24, 04:26 PM
well i guess at level 13 you should have the money to pay double base price (i do have 200 GP left for my breastplate, and as long as it doesnt also double the mithral and magic enhancement cost im fine with it)

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-24, 04:30 PM
Talking about 3.0. In 3.0 all half-dragon types have individual damage and DCs for their breath weapons and I realized Draconomicon (at least the one i have) is written for 3.0 but the half-dragon types listed theire have only the energy type and immunities listed but no DCs and no breath weapon damage. How was that supposed to be handled (i mean im most certainly doing to stick with silver dragon because it matche the 3.5 half dragons most closely and has a nice damage even if not as much as Gold Dragons but still those would be interesting to know)

Draconomicon for 3.0?? :smalleek:

I honestly do not remember the difference between 3.0 and 3.5 Half-Dragons, but Half-Dragon Breath Weapons in 3.5 all deal 6d8 (reflex half) and have a DC of "10 + 1/2 half-dragonís racial HD + half-dragonís Con modifier". You have no Racial HD, so that would be:
"DC 10 + half-dragonís Con modifier"

Jasdoif
2007-10-24, 04:31 PM
Humanoid is a specific Type and if you are not of this type you have to pay twice the price.I see...Well, "humanoid" is also a descriptive term, and there's also a couple references to "humanoid-shaped" in the rules, hence my confusion.

At least it's not as bad as "touch attack" and "incorporeal touch attack"....

Threeshades
2007-10-24, 04:35 PM
Draconomicon for 3.0?? :smalleek:

I honestly do not remember the difference between 3.0 and 3.5 Half-Dragons, but Half-Dragon Breath Weapons in 3.5 all deal 6d8 (reflex half) and have a DC of "10 + 1/2 half-dragonís racial HD + half-dragonís Con modifier". You have no Racial HD, so that would be:
"DC 10 + half-dragonís Con modifier"

its really written for 3.0

On the back it says to use it you need the PHB, DMG and MM. At least it doesnt say anything about 3.5 as on all other books ive seen so far.

anyway 3.0 different half dragon types all have individual damage dices for their breath attack and each has a fixed DC
See here (http://www.dragon.ee/30srd/)

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-24, 04:39 PM
I see...Well, "humanoid" is also a descriptive term, and there's also a couple references to "humanoid-shaped" in the rules, hence my confusion.

I knew you knew that. I was not trying to be snarky or anything, only wanted to explain to anyone who might not know.
Sorry if I sounded more arrogant than usual. :smallredface:


At least it's not as bad as "touch attack" and "incorporeal touch attack"....

:smalltongue:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-24, 04:44 PM
its really written for 3.0

On the back it says to use it you need the PHB, DMG and MM. At least it doesnt say anything about 3.5 as on all other books ive seen so far.

anyway 3.0 different half dragon types all have individual damage dices for their breath attack and each has a fixed DC
See here (http://www.dragon.ee/30srd/)

It is 3.5, I promise.

Look at the credit page. At the bottom it should say first printing November 2003. (PHB 3.5 came out in July)

They just got tired of writing 3.5 etc., because they were already planning 4E at this point. :smallwink:

Jasdoif
2007-10-24, 04:46 PM
Sorry if I sounded more arrogant than usual. :smallredface:You didn't.



It is 3.5, I promise.

Look at the credit page. At the bottom it should say first printing 2003.Another way to tell is to check damage reduction names. "DR X/magic" is 3.5, while "DR X/+1" is 3.0.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-24, 04:49 PM
You didn't.

So you are saying that I always sound arrogant and obnoxious? :smalltongue:

Jasdoif
2007-10-24, 04:50 PM
So you are saying that I always sound arrogant and obnoxious? :smalltongue:It depends on if the subject of popcorn is involved. :smalltongue:

Threeshades
2007-10-24, 04:58 PM
It is 3.5, I promise.

Look at the credit page. At the bottom it should say first printing November 2003. (PHB 3.5 came out in July)

They just got tired of writing 3.5 etc., because they were already planning 4E at this point. :smallwink:


You didn't.


Another way to tell is to check damage reduction names. "DR X/magic" is 3.5, while "DR X/+1" is 3.0.

Okay it's probably really 3.5

But the Book of Vile Darkness, i have really isnt, because it does have 3.0 rulings in it (like theres a monster that has Weapon Finesse (claws) instead of just weapon finesse)

Maybe I should start persuading my RPGing group to update our games to either 3.5 or at least to 3.0 with some more 3.5 compatibility (im still trying to get them to have Weapon Finesse automatically available for all applying weapons, and maybe having Two-weapon fighting and ambidexterity combined to get the CWar base classes working)
Actually i dont like the complete 3.5 edition myself either, there are some thins i liked about 3.0 better but some is useful (including the Half-Dragons).

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-24, 05:05 PM
Yes, Book of Vile Shadowy Illumination is really 3.0. :smallsmile:

Even if there are some minor issues with 3.5 I prefer it to 3.0, so I can only recommend the change.





It depends on if the subject of popcorn is involved. :smalltongue:

My Precious!

Threeshades
2007-10-24, 05:19 PM
Yes, Book of Vile Shadowy Illumination is really 3.0. :smallsmile:

Even if there are some minor issues with 3.5 I prefer it to 3.0, so I can only recommend the change.






My Precious!

I thought maybe changing to 3.5 but keep only the weapon size system of 3.0 and add some smaller/larger varieties of a few weapons and that should do it.

AtomicKitKat
2007-10-25, 08:51 AM
So yeah, I was refreshing my memory. If you're base human, you can get Dragon Wings and Dragon Tail as both your first Feats. Alternately, if you're Large somehow, you can get Shockwave(Draconomicon), which is apparently based on Savage Species' "Stomp". Stomp, incidentally, just requires Strength 30, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Power Attack. No size requirement. Otherwise, they're more or less identical. Both are Full Round actions that let you knock down everyone 5'/HD(not sure if it specifies racial HD) around you. They will also damage structures caught in the area.

Thunderclap from Savage Species requires Strength 30, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Power Attack. Lets you clap your hands together, and deafen people for the remainder of the encounter. I can't even begin to stress how useful this is vs say, spellcasters.:smallbiggrin: