Net, Crossbow, and Shield: an unusual build

[Whiskeyjack8044]

A. Would this work RAW, and B. Is it viable?

The idea is this: Start combat wielding a Net and Hand Crossbow, use the net to restrain the target, then fire the Crossbow at the target as a Bonus Action, and finally equip a Shield in your now free hand as a free action.

The ingredients: When you use a net you lose any extra attacks you would have on your turn, but with the Crossbow Expert Feat you can attack with the hand crossbow as a Bonus Action and this Bonus Action is not Two Weapon Fighting so it gets to use it's modifier. This feat also let's you use the net effectively at 5ft. Since the hand crossbow deals pricing damage rather than slashing damage, it does not destroy the net so the enemy has to burn an action to escape on it's turn.

The Controversy: Can you equip a Shield as a free action? Raw I believe that you can pick up/pull out an item as a free action, but I wouldn't argue with a DM that said that isn't the same as equipping it. Can you use a weapon with the Ammunition trait while holding a shield? I can see someone reloading a Hand Crossbow with a shield strapped to their arm, but mechanically the hand might not be considered "free".

So this is what I'd do: 1 level in fighter (or 2 so you can unload on the poor bastard with Action Surge) 1 level in Rogue to get some extra damage off that bonus action attack, and 2 levels in Artificer for the Repeating Shot Infusion. I'd probably go Fighter 2, Artificer 2, Rogue 16. You wont get to use a fighter's extra attacks when you use the net, so better to take the sneak attack damage. Make sure to pick a subclass that doesn't use alot of bonus actions.

Well, what do you think?

[Daghoulish]

In the armor section of the PHB there is a section that talks about doning and doffing armor. A shield takes 1 action to don or doff. The rest of it looks like i'd work, although I'm uncertain if a shield hand would be usable for reloading a crossbow. I would personally say no, because if you can't do hand gestures for somatic spells than you probably can't move your hand in the way needed to load a bolt.

[CheddarChampion]

Daghoulish is correct.
It takes an action to equip a shield.
The ammunition property of a hand crossbow means it requires both hands to reload. You can, however, fire it once.

Perhaps a dagger would work better? You lose some range and 1 point of damage per hit but you can attack in melee without penalty or throw the dagger. 'Reloading' a thrown dagger uses your item interaction for the turn though.

[Galithar]

Daghoulish is correct.
It takes an action to equip a shield.
The ammunition property of a hand crossbow means it requires both hands to reload. You can, however, fire it once.

Perhaps a dagger would work better? You lose some range and 1 point of damage per hit but you can attack in melee without penalty or throw the dagger. 'Reloading' a thrown dagger uses your item interaction for the turn though.

Unless you are allowed the 'Thrown Weapon' fighting style from the Class Feature Variants UA. This allows you to draw a thrown weapon as part of the attack (meaning you can extra attack with it) and gives you a +1 damage if I'm remembering correctly. Making up for the damage die difference a bit. However I would recommend using handaxes if you can swing being strength based. Gives you back the d6 damage die, but makes the weapon a little more expensive. Or a spear that gives the damage, but makes the weapon heavier.

[Greywander]

The ammunition property of a hand crossbow means it requires both hands to reload. You can, however, fire it once.
I don't believe this was in the original PHB, it's something that Sage Advice added after the fact. YMMV, so this would fall into "ask your DM" territory.

I get that running it this way still lets you shoot it once, but I just feel like it defeats the purpose of having one-handed ranged weapons. Plus, there are historical examples of soldiers wielding a sling and shield together. Perhaps a happy middle ground would be to allow one-handed reloading via a feat. There's also the artificer infusion that magically reloads the weapon without needing ammunition, so that should work by RAW.

Re; daggers, javelins would also work well, giving you a bit more range than a dagger.

[ThePolarBear]

I don't believe this was in the original PHB, it's something that Sage Advice added after the fact. YMMV, so this would fall into "ask your DM" territory.

It was one of the first errata ever published. "New" versions of the PHB have the line "(you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon)".

[Quoz]

Fortunately in a world of magic there are many ways around the reloading problem. Mage hand is probably the simplest, with many ways to achieve it. The artificer infusion for a reloading weapon is also quite viable.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

The reason it has to be a Hand Crossbow with Crossbow Expert, is because using a net disables Two Weapon Fighting. The Crossbow Expert Bonus Action attack is a loophole due to the Specific > General rule.

Too bad about the shield, but the rest still works.

[Lavaeolus]

Net and hand crossbow should work, yes. Others have pointed out the issues with a shield.

Shieldless, the ammunition problem shouldn't normally be a concern. "Drawing the ammunition [...] is part of the attack" -- and once you're no longer holding the net (because you've thrown it), you have a hand free when you attack. Just keep this in mind if you're ever in a situation where the net is impractical; you'll have to sheathe it first if you've got it out, using your one free item interaction.

Note that a strict-rules DM might rule that you can only draw one weapon at the start of combat, if you don't have the Dual Wielder feat. I always gloss over this when running a game, because I like to skip over people explicitly stowing their weapons at the end of combat / when talking to people.

With all that in mind, we don't need the Fighter levels for shield proficiency, but we do still need either a Fighter dip or a feat so we can have net proficiency. Fighter 1 is a strong dip anyway for the Archery fighting style, but going further could grab you Action Surge and potentially an archetype, which are both pretty powerful. Up to you how far you take it. The Artificer dip is less necessary: Repeating Shot would still be nice to have, but it's no longer required for the build to function.

One thing I will note: RAI, attacks with the net do not do damage. Sneak Attack is "extra damage"; it's not intended to allow nets to do damage (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/956930977795735552) when they didn't before. That said, I assume you're not going to be attacking with a net every turn, and will instead be using two hand crossbow shots a lot of the time.

I think it sounds viable enough, although I've never tried it in practice, and fun enough in concept. You've gotten rid of the net's biggest disadvantage, and you haven't sacrificed too much to do it. Just remember to stock up on nets, and that it's going to be a bit more useful when dealing with creatures that can't multiattack with slashing damage. Slight issue is that you're a ranged character who has big incentive to get up in melee range, but if you get Sharpshooter down the line that'll let you move a bit more freely.

[Imbalance]

Homebrew a shield with a built-in net launcher. See any number of action figure accessories for reference.

[NaughtyTiger]

This basically was my ranger's opening attack.

Shield already on, net in hand.
throw net
free action draw loaded hand crossbow
bonus action shoot

next round sucked cuz i can't reload crossbow

[Whiskeyjack8044]

The Sneak Attack is applied with the Bonus Action Crossbow attack, not the Net attack. Duel wielding Hand Crossbows is actually a bad idea because it then becomes Two Weapon Fighting and you don't get to add your modifier to damage and unless you have Repeating Shot you can't reload.

@NaughtyTiger technically that doesn't work, the Hand Crossbow has to already be in your hand. But then you aren't Playes-by-the-rulesTiger are you? Lol

[Lavaeolus]

Duel wielding Hand Crossbows is actually a bad idea because it then becomes Two Weapon Fighting and you don't get to add your modifier to damage and unless you have Repeating Shot you can't reload.

Crossbow Expert allows you to use a bonus action to "attack with a hand crossbow you are holding" when you "attack with a one-handed weapon". As funny as it sounds, a hand crossbow is a one-handed weapon. Ergo, it triggers the bonus action attack. Neither TWF nor reloading is a concern; you use the same crossbow for each attack.

At one point, the feat read that you could attack with a "loaded hand crossbow" -- but this was errata'd out, perhaps to remove ambiguity over whether firing a hand crossbow allows you to BA attack with the same hand crossbow. (And also because pre-loading a crossbow isn't really a thing in 5e combat.) Here's some Sage Advice (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/sageadvice_feats) on the issue, if you're curious:

Does Crossbow Expert let you fire a hand crossbow and then fire it again as a bonus action? It does! Take a look at the feat’s third benefit. It says you can attack with a hand crossbow as a bonus action when you use the Attack action to attack with a one-handed weapon. A hand crossbow is a one-handed weapon, so it can, indeed, be used for both attacks, assuming you have a hand free to load the hand crossbow between the two attacks.

Note that this is the same process as the net+crossbow attack, and thus likewise distinct from regular Two-Weapon Fighting. As far as I know, there is no way to make Two-Weapon Fighting actually apply to crossbows; by default you're limited to light melee weapons, and with feats you can expand that to non-light melee weapons.

My only concern with solely relying on the net+crossbow combo over occasionally just taking two-shots is that it makes you less likely to guarantee a Sneak Attack that turn, due to only the crossbow potentially triggering it. Well, that and the potential scarcity of nets, which is a bit DM/campaign dependent.

[MeeposFire]

This basically was my ranger's opening attack.

Shield already on, net in hand.
throw net
free action draw loaded hand crossbow
bonus action shoot

next round sucked cuz i can't reload crossbow

Well if you get an artificer friend (or I suppose get yourself some artificer levels) they have an infusion that allows your crossbow to auto load along with unlimited ammo and a +1 to hit and damage.

[NaughtyTiger]

@NaughtyTiger technically that doesn't work, the Hand Crossbow has to already be in your hand. But then you aren't Playes-by-the-rulesTiger are you? Lol

"that you are holding"
doh... i (and my DM) missed that throughout that entire PC's life.


at least it is consistent with my accidentally cheating that i do at everything else.