Using Armor/Shield spikes for serious cheese

[the_tick_rules]

I've just been messing around with making some 3.5 characters if they had all the money and time they needed and could make any arsenal. I came up with an idea I am not getting a clear answer to. Could you enchant spikes with serious defense boosts. A great combo in my mind is +5 parrying, spellstrike, warning, defending spikes. I know the rules say they do not benefit from the shields enhancement bonus but they can be made into magical weapons in their own right. Does this mean they have +10 worth of enchantment available for their own use or does the shield have to have them? For instance if you have a +5 heavily fortified shield do you have any room for shield spike enchantments or is it all used up?

I'm pretty certain wearing spiked armor or holding a shield counts as wielding it. I did some searching so I didn't ask an already answered question. Best I could find was someone debating if you had to be wielding a weapon for it to count. I agreed you would have to be holding it to count. getting a +5 defending dagger and carrying it in a scabbard does not work, you need to be using it.

[Gruftzwerg]

as far as I know, you enchant shield/armor spikes separately. As if they are a separate item. You have to apply +1 - +5 for it's attack bonus and can than proceed with special abilities if you want.
And if you use both armor and shield spikes this opens some extra space for weapon enchantments.

However, IIRC I've seen arguments that in order to wield a weapon, it has to be readied and assigned to mainhand and offhand weapon. I this is true (not sure about this) you have to choose which 2 weapons enchantments are active (but you could switch always on your turn). I need to dip into some rules. maybe I can find something... But I think it's based of the rule that you can only use 1 offhand weapon at a time with regular twf.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The spikes on your armor and shield are a completely separate item for the purpose of enchanting them. You can push them up to +10 equivalent, same as any other weapon. It's just rarely done because of the large and rapidly growing cost of doing so. 200k is a -big- chunk of change in all but the most Monty Haul of games. Even the 8k just to get that initial defending enchantment's no joke.

Pro Tip: get a way to cast greater magic weapon on your weapon of choice and make it a +1 with +9 worth of special abilities. You get the +5 from the spell and still have +9 worth of cool.

[TristanS]

agreed - I think it is pretty well established they are seperate, and a good source for secondary enchantments (I am building a character with spikes that are +1 smoking warning)

[the_tick_rules]

agreed - I think it is pretty well established they are seperate, and a good source for secondary enchantments (I am building a character with spikes that are +1 smoking warning)

Those weapon enchantments or using the table for making custom enchantments from spells? I made a couple enchantments permanent from spells but stopped after they started getting crazy. Creating a permanent non magical aura is fair for 1000 gold but divine favor is very cheap for how powerful it is to make. I looked them up and warning is a spell and I don't know where smoking came from?

[Gruftzwerg]

Those weapon enchantments or using the table for making custom enchantments from spells? I made a couple enchantments permanent from spells but stopped after they started getting crazy. Creating a permanent non magical aura is fair for 1000 gold but divine favor is very cheap for how powerful it is to make. I looked them up and warning is a spell and I don't know where smoking came from?

smoking is iirc forgotten realms, a 5ft stinking cloud around you + 50% concealment

warning is I guess from MIC and makes the party immune to surprise attacks (no surprise round for the enemies).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The spikes on your armor and shield are a completely separate item for the purpose of enchanting them. I don't think the enchantment school works on objects. Though using Diplomacy might, since it's not [mind-affecting] unless you try to make them fanatic.

Is it possible to attach armor/shield spikes to armor after the armor is made? Because getting some +1 morphing/sizing arrows that you turn into armor/shield spikes would be much, much cheaper, at 1/50 the cost. Although technically shields are bashing weapons, so feel free to turn the arrows into bashing shields with spikes.

[YellowJohn]

smoking is iirc forgotten realms, a 5ft stinking cloud around you + 50% concealment

warning is I guess from MIC and makes the party immune to surprise attacks (no surprise round for the enemies).

Smoking is indeed Forgotten Realms - Lords of Darkness p.180, but is only 20% concealment not 50%. It goes great on armour spikes.

Warning is indeed from the MIC, but provides 'only' a +5 Insight bonus to Initiative checks. I usually put this on a gauntlet.

[schreier]

I think it used to say half concealment, which is where he probably got the 50% ... Half concealment is a 3.0 concept.

[RNightstalker]

Pro Tip: get a way to cast greater magic weapon on your weapon of choice and make it a +1 with +9 worth of special abilities. You get the +5 from the spell and still have +9 worth of cool.

Is there any source listed for this? It's one of those too good to be true things for me. Even though technically it should work, casting the GMW would bump it into epic status.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is there any source listed for this? It's one of those too good to be true things for me. Even though technically it should work, casting the GMW would bump it into epic status.The magic weapon rules allow you to get a +1/+9 weapon, and there's absolutely nothing that dissuades you from using greater magic weapon to give it a +5 enhancement bonus (which does not stack with the +1, but does stack with the +9).

A DM would have to houserule it to not work, because it totally does by the rules.

[Gruftzwerg]

The magic weapon rules allow you to get a +1/+9 weapon, and there's absolutely nothing that dissuades you from using greater magic weapon to give it a +5 enhancement bonus (which does not stack with the +1, but does stack with the +9).

A DM would have to houserule it to not work, because it totally does by the rules.

SRD: Magic Weapons (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm)

A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.

It's a +10 enhancement bonus cap per single weapon and not a +10 cap per source of magic.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

SRD: Magic Weapons (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm)

It's a +10 enhancement bonus cap per single weapon and not a +10 cap per source of magic.And then it turns around and says that they can, but they're considered [Epic] for overcoming DR, and while they have +6 or better enhancement bonus, or they have +11 or better combined bonuses, they cost 10x as much to craft.

So don't craft when the weapon is affected by greater magic weapon, and you're fine.

[Gruftzwerg]

And then it turns around and says that they can, but they're considered [Epic] for overcoming DR, and while they have +6 or better enhancement bonus, or they have +11 or better combined bonuses, they cost 10x as much to craft.

So don't craft when the weapon is affected by greater magic weapon, and you're fine.

Not sure about this. Imho GMW doesn't allow you to turn it into a epic weapon. Epic weapons are it's own category and thus a ability would need to give you the permission to do so. There is a reason why they did make 2 separate categories and not a single one.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Not sure about this. Imho GMW doesn't allow you to turn it into a epic weapon. Epic weapons are it's own category and thus a ability would need to give you the permission to do so. There is a reason why they did make 2 separate categories and not a single one.It's still a +1/+9 weapon; it just has a temporary +5 enhancement bonus overriding the +1.

The XPH has a similar power called metaphysical weapon, and you can even get +6 out of it well prior to level 21 without even trying terribly hard. Just like with GMW, MW has no limitations on what kind of manufactured weapon it can be placed on. If the devs had a problem with either, they would have stated so in the spell and power effects.

There are other spell effects that grant weapon abilities to weapons, and none of them, as far as I know, have limitations on what kind of magic weapons they're added to.

[Gruftzwerg]

It's still a +1/+9 weapon; it just has a temporary +5 enhancement bonus overriding the +1.

The XPH has a similar power called metaphysical weapon, and you can even get +6 out of it well prior to level 21 without even trying terribly hard. Just like with GMW, MW has no limitations on what kind of manufactured weapon it can be placed on. If the devs had a problem with either, they would have stated so in the spell and power effects.

you have to keep in mind that Epic rules are by default optional rules. These rules need to be unlocked separately by permissions (the DM in the first place, but in our chase imho greater Magic Weapon would need to explicitly call out the Epic permission, cause everything else in the ability only indicates "normal" magic weapons)

edit: Remember dnd is permission based and not on common sense..^^

[the_tick_rules]

Not sure about this. Imho GMW doesn't allow you to turn it into a epic weapon. Epic weapons are it's own category and thus a ability would need to give you the permission to do so. There is a reason why they did make 2 separate categories and not a single one.

I'm pretty sure it would work. It's basically the same idea as enchanting bows and arrow separately right? Get a +1 bow and stack bonuses that confer bonuses to ammo then make +5 arrows right? Now the GMW has certain vulnerabilities. If you aren't casting it yourself you are dependent on having whoever is around constantly. Plus if it is disenchanted, suppressed, whatever you need to wait to cast it again.

[Gruftzwerg]

I'm pretty sure it would work. It's basically the same idea as enchanting bows and arrow separately right? Get a +1 bow and stack bonuses that confer bonuses to ammo then make +5 arrows right? Now the GMW has certain vulnerabilities. If you aren't casting it yourself you are dependent on having whoever is around constantly. Plus if it is disenchanted, suppressed, whatever you need to wait to cast it again.

Imho not the same. IIRC the bows enchantment targets your attacks and not your arrows.

Still leaves me with the question: Where is the Epic weapon permission?
And if we have no permission > no higher bonus than +10

GMW would need to call out something like "the weapons total enchantment bonus may pass +10" to give you the permission. Otherwise you are not allowed to make use of the epic rules and have to use the targeted rules for "normal" magic weapons.

[the_tick_rules]

Imho not the same. IIRC the bows enchantment targets your attacks and not your arrows.

Still leaves me with the question: Where is the Epic weapon permission?
And if we have no permission > no higher bonus than +10

GMW would need to call out something like "the weapons total enchantment bonus may pass +10" to give you the permission. Otherwise you are not allowed to make use of the epic rules and have to use the targeted rules for "normal" magic weapons.

Here's a quote for a pretty common enchantment, holy. many other abilities carry the exact same bolded section, well except they don't use the word holy obviously.

A holy weapon is imbued with holy power. This power makes the weapon good-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all of evil alignment. It bestows one negative level on any evil creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level never results in actual level loss, but it cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the weapon is wielded. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the holy power upon their ammunition.

If you fire an arrow from a holy bow it becomes a holy arrow. If you had a +1 holy bow and +5 arrows the numbers do not merge and become a +6, you are sending a +5 holy arrow now. It's risky in the sense a +1 bow has low hp and hardness so it is vulnerable to sundering. It's also expensive as heck because you need a considerable supply of now super expensive ammo. I'm not using it on my just for fun written character for those reasons but it works in my eyes.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Like to above, a +5 bane weapon is literally a +7 weapon against whatever critters they're specified to kill. Nothing about the bane effect prevents this.

[Gruftzwerg]

Here's a quote for a pretty common enchantment, holy. many other abilities carry the exact same bolded section, well except they don't use the word holy obviously.

...

If you fire an arrow from a holy bow it becomes a holy arrow. If you had a +1 holy bow and +5 arrows the numbers do not merge and become a +6, you are sending a +5 holy arrow now. It's risky in the sense a +1 bow has low hp and hardness so it is vulnerable to sundering. It's also expensive as heck because you need a considerable supply of now super expensive ammo. I'm not using it on my just for fun written character for those reasons but it works in my eyes.
Is that's the chase the same rules apply. If neither source has epic status or allows for epic status, you are not allowed to cross the total +10 enchantment bonus for normal weapons imho. You need either an epic weapon, epic ammo or an epic spell to make use of the epic magic weapon rules.

[the_tick_rules]

Unless there is an official FAQ on that specific issue it's up to DM judgement and it seems there are different judgements on it, it happens.

[Gruftzwerg]

Unless there is an official FAQ on that specific issue it's up to DM judgement and it seems there are different judgements on it, it happens.

while I like to point to the FAQ myself very often, we all know that it is not RAW and 100% reliable.

If you can follow my thought steps, it seem clear to me at least.^^

You need permission to make use of epic rules. Either by cheesy things like being a dragon of age (hello DWKs^^) that can take epic feats, or by the DM directly giving you epic stuff (epic items/spells/level...). If no source allows you to break the +10 limit, I would see no reason as a DM to allow it on pre-epic-levels, not even on a max optimization lvl table as dummy DM.

edit: in the end it's in the DM's hand. as said, a DM can always give his players epic stuff even if the players haven't reached epic lvl. And so he can allow his player as an heroic act to bypass that +10limit. It's just the player can't demand it by RAW. Maybe the FAQ ain't that wrong. i need to read the passage myself when I find time.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't think the enchantment school works on objects. Though using Diplomacy might, since it's not [mind-affecting] unless you try to make them fanatic.

Yes, yes. "Enhancement" is the proper term but the rhubes from every other fantasy setting ever use "enchantment" for this particular endevour. And I'll have you know that singing sword I got in water deep was absolutely enthralled by my charming banter.


Is it possible to attach armor/shield spikes to armor after the armor is made? Because getting some +1 morphing/sizing arrows that you turn into armor/shield spikes would be much, much cheaper, at 1/50 the cost. Although technically shields are bashing weapons, so feel free to turn the arrows into bashing shields with spikes.[/quote]

It is not, unfortunately. Armor and shield spikes are not separate items from their protective gear for any purpose other than enhancement. An armor either has spikes when it's made or it doesn't.