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View Full Version : A Summoner's Woes (Terrible DM experience, seeking advice)



Mongobear
2020-02-27, 01:17 AM
Howdy all, glad to see the forums are back up and running, just in time for a glorious story of DM Power Trips, and my own mental excercise to try and find a way to fix the issues it has caused.

So, our group, not even 12 hours before posting this, started a new game, running Curse of the Crimson Throne from Pathfinder. We rolled stats and made everything as per instructed, and began play, as usual, it went off without a hitch.

We met with Zellara, and did the Harrow Deck stuff, then set out to the old Fishery building, looking for the NPC that wronged us in the past.

The Cast of Characters:

Sigurd - H-Elf UnchSummoner (me) [Drug Addict trait]
Sigrun - My Eidolon (Ancestor type, using a Greatsword--I am going for a sort of Fate/Stay Night "Saber" build)
Maria - Changeling Witch [Lamm Murdered her Father Trait]
Rayne - Undine Warpriest [Tortured Child trait]
Goroth - Half-Orc Skald [Framed for Murder trait]
CotCT NPCs in the first chapter

We make our entrance into the area, inspecting a rickety staircase, and see Maria and Rayne fall into the waters, being sorta bad at Dex checks (and rolling badly). We immediately get "surprised" by the Jigsaw Shark, despite our Undine having the alternate racial trait of Blindsense in water.

Rayne immediately gets nom'd by the Shark, who hits, deals half his HP in damage, and grapples him in the Surprise round. Then, having a 25+ Initiative somehow, the shark goes again, and drags him to the bottom, biting again and dropping him to -1, but the Hydrated Vitality Trait kicks in, and heals him for 2, so he is at 1 hp. The rest of our party, including Sigrun all jump in and "surround" it, bring it low, but it gets one more turn, and bites again, dropping Rayne to -5 ish. We then finally bring it down, and if not for a Cure Light potion one of us bought, the Warpriest wouldve bled out. A few minutes of troubled swimming later, and we're all back on shore, and at decent HP, besides the Injured Rayne, who uses 1 of his 2 spells to Cure himself, back up to decent levels (10/13 hp).

We then enter into the work area full of Children, with Hookshank, and the Rogue rolls a MASSIVE Stealth check, somewhere near 30, and nobody notices he isn't a kid. He ask one of the kids a question, and he 'ambushes' us, nearly dropping Rayne back to dying. The kids swarm us, and dont do much, besides enabling Flanking, but we manage to bring Shanks down after a few rounds, and we let the kids go, because we're not monsters. We loot the room, finding another Potion, which we give to Rayne.

A few minutes later, Giggles and Yarvin enter, and immediately attack, and we get a lecture on LoS and combat movement, where the DM claims that Once I start moving in X direction, LoS doesnt change, when I get into the EXACT SAME LINE through a door to see Yarvin, and decide to attack him, instead of double moving towards Giggles. After this, the fight doesnt go too badly, Maria and Goroth take a bit of damage, and Sigrun takes a few Acid Splashes, but nothing critical, after the fight I use a Rejuvenate Eidolon to top her off, and Rayne uses his last spell to cure Maria, we're all close to full moving on, especially after the extra potions we found in Yarvin's office.

Moving on, we encounter another group of kids, and free them, giving each a GP for a hot meal, to score some XP later for fulfilling Rayne's Campaign objective. (We didnt know this at the time.] We sweep the upper floor, finding no sign of anyone else, so we head towards the boat, being the only unexplored area. Sigrun opens the door, and walks in, as she is the highest HP, and we encounter the 100% largest abuse of the supposed "DM can do whatever he wants" Trump card I have ever personally witnessed.

Sigrun walks in, the Drain Spider due to size and natural camoflague from the webs has an Astronomical Stealth roll (It beats us all on a Nat 1 even if we Nat 20's), drops out of the web and onto Sigrun's shoulder, biting her. I need to make a Fort save, because poison. I roll atleast a 12 (I forget exactly, but she gets a +6 and I at least rolled what my bonus was.)

DM: "Roll her Fort save vs Poison."
Me: "Uhh, 12+ (dont remember the exact roll, it was atleast 12 tho.)"
DM, "You fail. Rolling the Strength DRAIN, lose 2 to DRAIN."
Me: I double check, "Are you sure it's Drain? We're level 1, dude. Can you check the book."
DM: "I don't need to check, I read this whole chapter three times, this little CR 1/4 Spider is Brutal."
Me: "O... k... Is there more afterwards? I get to keep making saves, until I take it all or pass X in a row, right?"
DM: "Nope, once you fail you take it ALLLLLLLlllllllllllll!! *hysteric laughing {Scrubbed}
The Entire Table, in Unison: "That's not how ANY poison works in this system, ARE. YOU. SURE?"
DM: *visibly irrate and raising his voice* "I SAID I READ THIS WHOLE THING, IM THE DM, IM RIGHT, JUST TAKE THE DAMAGE!"
Me: *sighing in resignation as it was getting late* "Fine..."

We squish the spider, and move on to Gaedrin Lamm, nearly wiping to the damn Croco-Gator, as our largest source of DPS (Sigrun) was no down to a 12 Strength, and could barely hit the broadside of a barn. She 'Sacrificed' herself by being grappled by the Croco-Gator for like 5 rounds, while we whittled down Lamm, ending in a well placed Bow crit by me, dealing just enough to drop him, then the Croc drug poor Sigrun down into the water, before I dismissed her at 1 HP, out of mercy.

We loot the room, find all the Plot/Quest items to fulfill our background objectives, and discover Zellara's head and Harrow deck, before deciding to rest in Lamm's room since all of us are pretty low after the fight. We end it there, all of us visibly irrate after the poison, and near TPK, and everyone leaves in quiet anger.

On the way home, all of the PCs message one another, and someone links the ACTUAL stat block for that spider, in which is is shown that every single mechanic used was wrong, other than the Ability score its' poison affects. I PM the DM on Messenger, and get a Tirade of excuses, accusations, and threats for my audacity of challenging his authority. Which I can include, for context:

*Note, I try to be civil at first, but I get a little heated near the end

**ALso of note, before we left, the DM was 'bragging' about how good this module was, as he ran it 100% by the book, without changing or modifying anything. This is relevant to the Spider issues, after we all get home and the convo ensues.


[Yesterday, 11:03 PM]
Me: Hey im just letting you know, I didnt intend to start a fight over the "when does my Eidolon actually die" thing, I asked myself out loud, intending to just look it up, not asking the table if anyone knew. I was pretty sure it used the usual negative [Con score] way, like everything else, I just didnt expect it to come up in the first session.

Also, can you link me to what kind of Spider that was? If it is actually ability drain, I am pretty much useless until 4th level spells, when I get the Summoner version of NotRestoration. Ive never heard of a spider that deals Con DRAIN, especially at this low of a CR, almost everything ever is ability damage, especially poisons. Every single Spider in the Bestiary i can find, that targets Strength is damage, and allows a save every round to resist the damage, ending the effect if I pass X in a row.

*At this point in another PM, Maria's player links me to the actual Spider's stat block, and I see how royally screwed the DM made Sigrun*

DM: its not drain, its damage my mistake, change it for next time so its not useless for awhile

Me: No
[Maria's Player] messaged me a minute ago
You don't understand
You messed up so badly, and dug such a hole of mistakes

DM: ?

Me: [Maria's Player] checked the actual stat block, and im looking at it now, too

DM: ok?

Me: Literally everything you did besides the Stealth bonus was wrong
its not Drain, it allows a save every round, its DC is 10, I rolled an 11 or 12 atleast
He even linked me to the stat block, im looking at it as Im typing

DM: i mean a)im not in any hole as im the dm and can add/remove stuff at will. b) i double checked i did misread the wording(happened with [Rayne's Player] the other day).
the way it's phrased in the module is drain but the pfsrd block is dmg

*At this point, Maria's player and I are talking, and he comments that it's IMPOSSIBLE to misread the stat block, it very clearly states the DC, the damage, and how many saves are required*

Me: No, you being a DM doesnt give you ANY right to change something like that, swapping a sword to an axe, or a skill, or giving a useful Feat instead of Skill Focus or something dumb is one thing, but totally buffing/changing an ability score attack like that AT 1ST LEVEL is {Scrubbed} levels of douchery

DM: I already said i handled wrong. either accept that or dont, not my problem
Also yes it 100% does give me that right, it says so in the book

Me: Fine, but we're giving her Strength back or atleast resetting it next session and rerolling all 4 of them the right way. I never got poisoned in the first place, she needed to roll like a 5 or worse to even fail, let alone 4 in a row

DM: no, it stays how it is, ill just do it right from now on

Me: Then me and [Rayne's Player] are out
and your games over, literally all 4 of us are talking and are extremely unpleased with how this whole session turned out
You pretty much ignored dice ALL night, fudging saves, and attack rolls, even before the Poison thing. [Goroth's Player] almost stopped it early because of how much of a {Scrubbed} you were being.

DM: The STR damage comes back at 1 per anyway and you dont speak for [Rayne's Player] so.... You cant use that as a threat

Me: He and I literally talked on the way home, he almost left on his own after the Shark, he saw you fudge dice just to kill him
No, I WAS NEVER POISONED TO BEGIN WITH
I ROLLED HIGHER THAN THE SAVE

DM: Again, DM has the ability to modify any stat block he wishes.

Me: We talked about it after dropping you off, AND [Maria and Goroth's Players] brought this up to me to start with. I had no idea. Literally all 4 of us caught you doing this sort of stuff tonight, all night

DM: "Caught" i wasn't hiding anything? Misreading something is different and increasing a dc by 2 is well within my rights and i awarded higher xp than it was worth. So if you want to quit, go for it. that's entirely you
Anyway im going into sleep mode so bye

Me: Id rather give the 200 xp back and ignore this ever happened, or fix it by rerolling all the saves the right way. You dont understand how crippled this makes me
Like, you deliberately tried to sabotage me. There is literally no excuse, you cant even claim "DM Power" because you have VASTLY overstepped any rights
That is one difference between you and literally every other person who tries to DM, you dont do stuff like this fairly, you just abuse power and then throw out the "Im teh DM" like youre doing us a favor by treating us all like total pawns

DM: THE DM HAS THE ABILITY TO MODIFY ANY MONSTER OR SET ANY DC THEY WANT. I increased xp awarded and admitted to misreading the poison being dmg as drain because the wording. I wasn't intentially screwing anyone, in fact i helped you. There were 4 more of those in the hold of the ship and i removed them so the boss battle didn't absolutely f*** you up
you're welcome
Im not in the mood or state of mind for arguing further
Im done with it either way. I admitted i{Scrubbed} up
If you cant accept it and move on thats not my issue
now im going to bed and logging off

Me: I dont care what you THINK youre allowed to do, there are 'unwritten rules' you just dont cross, and you have consistently stepped on, crushed and mangled those rules every time you DM. I dont care what you say at this point, we are going to ignoring this ENTIRE situation existed and fixing the Stat drain, or I am done, [Rayne's player] is likely done, and [Maria and Goroth's Players] who actually came to me about this in the first place, are likely done
You even{Scrubbed} BRAGGED TO OUR FACES that you ran the entire thing by the book. Really? Youre so full of{Scrubbed} at this point I may just quit on principal, ive never even DMed PF before and could do it 10000% better than this atrocity
You have sabotaged an entire module by being too stubborn to fix your mistake. Again. Like every other time something like this happens.
I dont actually want to quit, I like PF, and I like this module, but you have single-handedly crushed every ounce of enjoyment of it, the character, and just the thought of coming back out of it, out of the group even

*DM has logged out.*


So, having read the ACTUAL conversation, is there a way to salvage this? Is there some line somewhere to corroborate one side's viewpoints? Is he actually well within his bounds to do this sort of thing?

Also, as a side conversation, assuming he is just extremely misguided in his understanding about changing monster stat blocks, how far is too far in this procedure? I have done it in 5e, giving stuff different weapons, or swapping ability scores on Orcs/Hobgoblins to make them better Archers, but I have not once outright altered a monster like this for the sole purpose of destroying a PCs build.

EDIT - OH!!! I almost forgot another gem...

During the final fight, as Sigrun was beginning to drop lower in HP, and I used my Life Link to keep her at 1hp, I sorta asked rhetorically out loud, how Eidolon's die, was it as soon as they drop to negatives, or -Con Score, like PCs, and he almost flipped the table, exclaiming "THEYRE AN NPC, THEYRE DEAD AS SOON AS THEY HIT -1!!! IM THE DM, THATS MY RULING, DONT LOOK IT UP!!!!"

Which, I immediately told him to go {Scrubbed} himself, opened the Eidolon ability on the SRD, and read aloud "Slain when reduced to -Cn score" before, reiterating, that he needed to go{Scrubbed}himself, and that the eidolon isnt an NPC, its an aspect of my class.

((The multitudes of {Scrubbed} grew quite frequent during the boss fight. All of us were pretty much packing up and on the way out after the poison...))

MrSandman
2020-02-27, 08:04 AM
So, having read the ACTUAL conversation, is there a way to salvage this? Is there some line somewhere to corroborate one side's viewpoints? Is he actually well within his bounds to do this sort of thing?

This sounds like a case in which all you can do is have an honest conversation with everyone involved. You are playing a make-believe game. There is no right or wrong way to go about it. Some people enjoy it when the GM fudges, some don't. Some are okay with the GM having unlimited power, some aren't. If what happened bugged you and the others (and it seems it did), just sit all together and say, "Hey, we appreciate you taking the role of GM, but we don't enjoy this kind of game. Can we find a compromise for a kind of game that we will all enjoy?"

If the GM is willing to talk about it and reach a compromise (and respect it!) that you all can enjoy, great! If he can't, well, maybe it's time for someone else to be the GM.

Mongobear
2020-02-27, 11:30 AM
This sounds like a case in which all you can do is have an honest conversation with everyone involved. You are playing a make-believe game. There is no right or wrong way to go about it. Some people enjoy it when the GM fudges, some don't. Some are okay with the GM having unlimited power, some aren't. If what happened bugged you and the others (and it seems it did), just sit all together and say, "Hey, we appreciate you taking the role of GM, but we don't enjoy this kind of game. Can we find a compromise for a kind of game that we will all enjoy?"

If the GM is willing to talk about it and reach a compromise (and respect it!) that you all can enjoy, great! If he can't, well, maybe it's time for someone else to be the GM.

Honestly, i think I just needed a place to vent after last night, I was just so frustrated and disappointed, that I didn't even realize I triggered the mods as bad as I did. (I apologize for that, emotions were typing.)

As far as your response, I highly doubt that's gonna work, all 4 of the players were talking to him while I was, and he was just so stubbornly adamant about it, that nobody made any head, other than me getting a "yeah, i read it wrong. but it stands, ill just use it right from now on."

I think the worst part, was that despite our reservations of playing, the DM promised he wasnt going to doing stuff like this. He was gonna run it 100% by the book, and basically just be a Dice Roller and mini Mover, while we navigated the story, and it gets totally sabotaged in session 1.

Not a single person had fun. It was literally an excercise in mental endurance just to not jump over the table and choke him out all night, ESPECIALLY when we started watching him blatantly fudge dice rolls, even as far as BRAGGING about doing so, claiming "Well, im just really good at rolling dice!" when the results he was getting (now that I looked up the modifiers on certain things) arent even possible.

I guess this is just a situation of "fool me once, fool me twice" as this is probably the fifth time in a decade this particular person has done this sort of thing, across 3 editions. It's just before, they took awhile and usually didnt implode until a decent way through a game, not Session 1.

Hellpyre
2020-02-27, 03:52 PM
I think the worst part, was that despite our reservations of playing, the DM promised he wasnt going to doing stuff like this. He was gonna run it 100% by the book, and basically just be a Dice Roller and mini Mover, while we navigated the story, and it gets totally sabotaged in session 1.


I think this is a pretty important part to the story to be missing from your OP. There isn't a problem with modifying the statblock (sometimes even on the fly, to make something run appropriately), but it should be done to improve player engagement, and if you signed up for a game on the promise of by-the-book play, it casts the conversation about it in a far different light.

Honestly, without that context, you came off worse than he did to me in the IM conversation you included. Sure, given the rest of your story it sounds like he was on a heavy power trip, and he way misshot appropriate difficulty for the system, but making decisions at the table isn't some sort of sin of GMing. Without an agreement to the contrary, jumping down your GM's throat about fiddling with DCs comes off as you trying to force the game a certain direction via backseat GMing.

(But seriously, what kind of jerk drains an eidolan before the summoner has access to ways to fix that)

Mongobear
2020-02-27, 04:02 PM
I think this is a pretty important part to the story to be missing from your OP. There isn't a problem with modifying the statblock (sometimes even on the fly, to make something run appropriately), but it should be done to improve player engagement, and if you signed up for a game on the promise of by-the-book play, it casts the conversation about it in a far different light.

Honestly, without that context, you came off worse than he did to me in the IM conversation you included. Sure, given the rest of your story it sounds like he was on a heavy power trip, and he way misshot appropriate difficulty for the system, but making decisions at the table isn't some sort of sin of GMing. Without an agreement to the contrary, jumping down your GM's throat about fiddling with DCs comes off as you trying to force the game a certain direction via backseat GMing.

(But seriously, what kind of jerk drains an eidolan before the summoner has access to ways to fix that)

Yeah, I reread my own post a little bit ago, and thought I came across much worse than when I wrote it. It was mostly emotions fueling that. The context of that particular fact really changes it.

Between promising ahead of time that it was getting ran by-the-book, bragging about doing so, and then getting caught with all of the things that had been done wrong, it was just... an amazingly horrendous situation.

Even today, I PMed him again and offered a compromise--Redo the ENTIRE save thing for the poison, the right way, and see where it ends up, but got a tirade of accusations about meta gaming and reading the module, before I just blocked him for my own mental health.

Reversefigure4
2020-02-27, 05:32 PM
I think the worst part, was that despite our reservations of playing, the DM promised he wasnt going to doing stuff like this. He was gonna run it 100% by the book, and basically just be a Dice Roller and mini Mover, while we navigated the story, and it gets totally sabotaged in session 1.

Yeah, there's not much fixing this.

I'm largely with the DM here, in that the DM is totally free to alter the monsters, story, and adventure however they see fit. But it's done with a presumption of creating a better game out of it, whether that's buffing monsters to produce more challenging fights, altering aspects of the story that will trigger players, removing 'boring' adventure elements, or even just being aware of the party's specific strengths or weaknesses. I've run Curse of the Crimson Throne - and I think it's an excellent adventure path - but I've altered monsters, added side adventures, and changed parts all over the place with the intent of producing a funner game.

But at the point where you've had an ongoing problem with the GM 'winning' by over-buffing monsters and negating PCs' abilities, to the point where the compromise has been the GM running things 100% as written, only for them to immediately not do that... yeah, there's not much fixing that.

However, a Paizo AP is not a good place for the GM to be just a mini mover and dice roller. There's lots of roleplaying and decision making the GM is going to need to make (several points in Curse have GM tactics in the ilk of 'depending on what <enemy> knows of the PCs', which inherently requires the GM to make independent decisions). You need something a lot simpler with minimal to no story, just room after room of static encounters (since even reactive 'The Hobgoblins move from Room A to Room B if they hear the PCs' GMing can look like railroading if the players don't trust the GM) if you only want the GM to roll dice. It doesn't sound like a lot of fun to GM - but "The monster auto-kills you, don't argue with the GM" doesn't sound fun for the players either.

What sort of advice are you looking for here? If you want to keep up the group, changing GMs seems like the best option you've got.

Mongobear
2020-02-27, 08:06 PM
Yeah, there's not much fixing this.

I'm largely with the DM here, in that the DM is totally free to alter the monsters, story, and adventure however they see fit. But it's done with a presumption of creating a better game out of it, whether that's buffing monsters to produce more challenging fights, altering aspects of the story that will trigger players, removing 'boring' adventure elements, or even just being aware of the party's specific strengths or weaknesses. I've run Curse of the Crimson Throne - and I think it's an excellent adventure path - but I've altered monsters, added side adventures, and changed parts all over the place with the intent of producing a funner game.

But at the point where you've had an ongoing problem with the GM 'winning' by over-buffing monsters and negating PCs' abilities, to the point where the compromise has been the GM running things 100% as written, only for them to immediately not do that... yeah, there's not much fixing that.

However, a Paizo AP is not a good place for the GM to be just a mini mover and dice roller. There's lots of roleplaying and decision making the GM is going to need to make (several points in Curse have GM tactics in the ilk of 'depending on what <enemy> knows of the PCs', which inherently requires the GM to make independent decisions). You need something a lot simpler with minimal to no story, just room after room of static encounters (since even reactive 'The Hobgoblins move from Room A to Room B if they hear the PCs' GMing can look like railroading if the players don't trust the GM) if you only want the GM to roll dice. It doesn't sound like a lot of fun to GM - but "The monster auto-kills you, don't argue with the GM" doesn't sound fun for the players either.

What sort of advice are you looking for here? If you want to keep up the group, changing GMs seems like the best option you've got.

I honestly dont know what Im looking for from the forum. Last night when I posted, I kinda was just looking for a place to vent.

The entire group came to a sort of concensus--It feels to us like the DM is taking the liberties granted by 'Rule 0' and instead of using it to create interesting/unique encounters, he is just using it as his bludgeon to club baby seals. Like, he legitimately feels he did nothing wrong, despite admitting he read the Poison wrong, and refuses to fix it or allow me to atleast roll my 3 saves that I was cheated out of at least attempting. (My Eidolon has a +6 Fort, and worst I need a 6 to pass.) He thinks a pittance of 200xp is enough to just counterbalance all 4 of us wanting to pretty much strangle him. He is also now claiming he never promised to run it by the book, despite us having it in writing in our FB Messenger chat room. He accused Maria's player of photo shopping our conversation.

I already volunteered to replace him, its just, the other 3 are very non-adversarial, and dont want to actually make a decision, despite one of them owning the building we play in, and the other being the main contributor of food/drink.

This is just a long standing issue I and Rayne's player have had with this particular DM, we have known him since school (im now 32, Rayne is 38) and he has always done this to every game, whether he is a PC or a DM. Adversarial DMing, blatant OOC/Murderhobo'ing to the detriment of other people's characters, rolling up blatantly Evil characters in a campaign to save the world, and pissing in the Divine Waters of Elysia (yeah, this happened).

Ive tried, for YEARS to remove him/disassociate with them, and no matter what, he always somehow weasles his way back in. Small towns suck, there might be 10 people locally who even know what d&d is, and out group is 5 of them.

Coventry
2020-02-27, 09:04 PM
This statement:


Not a single person had fun.

pretty much says "end that campaign" and "find a different person to DM" to me. If you had a reasonable hope that it was a one-time bad night, maybe give it a second chance, but I do not even see an unreasonable hope hiding in any of the rest of what you wrote.

Lucas Yew
2020-02-27, 09:04 PM
Ah, so a radioactive individual in general. I'd quickly cut all ties with such a bully, they are always some kind of an unchanging emotional wasteland...

Mongobear
2020-02-27, 09:47 PM
Ah, so a radioactive individual in general. I'd quickly cut all ties with such a bully, they are always some kind of an unchanging emotional wasteland...

This pretty much sums him up.

I cant go into detail, as that bit got flagged and I aggro'd a mod.

FaerieGodfather
2020-02-28, 08:10 AM
He's a liar, a cheater, a bully and a goddamned moron.

You understand this.

What's wrong with the rest of your friends, that they are willing to keep giving him chances to mistreat them?

Mongobear
2020-02-28, 12:30 PM
He's a liar, a cheater, a bully and a goddamned moron.

You understand this.

What's wrong with the rest of your friends, that they are willing to keep giving him chances to mistreat them?

Apparently, they dont want to validate the situation, because He and I get equally loud/argumentative over these sorts of things. They'd rather play "Bad d&d, then no d&d" because atleast they get to play.

Maria and Goroth's players told me after the fact, that on the way to our meet up, they discussed their expectations and fully expected the whole thing to fall apart eventually, but not as fast as it did.

I really wish there were alternatives locally, but there's not. I live in a small town, and not many locals play d&d, and the nearest "gaming store" is over an hour away. My only alternative would be online groups, like Roll20, but im old and computers are the devil.

Spriteless
2020-02-28, 01:52 PM
You want my advice, to game without dealing with a GM who you can't deal with?

Run a game. Get with the players, ask if they would like to play a game with you. Just a low key game. Something simple to start with, like Honey Bear, or RISUS, or hell if you're more comfortable with D&D stick with that. But KEEP IT SIMPLE< SILLY> See if you can rope another player into GMing every other week. Maybe with the loudest fellow player who is on your side as the other GM. Another reason to keep it simple, is so they don't feel obligated to do work. Reciprocal GMing.

Lazy GM advice: Often when I run I have no big plot planned, I just ask where they're going and what their goals are, and put an encounter with some monsters appropriate to the PCs' levels in the way, and describe the monsters as looking kind of like something that belongs there. A pack of monsters looked just like talking wolves, but had the exact stats of ork shamans plus a wolf's pack tactics, was in the Mournland guarding a crystal cratered under a derelict airship. Because an ork shaman was about the right level to challenge them. And I thought it was funny for puppies to use the 'Command' spell on humanoids. And they wanted an airship. And this means the next few sessions are seeking out airship parts, which will all happen to be in maps I have.

Be sure to talk with the players ahead of time so they don't go with the Geek Social Fallacy of Friendship is Transitive, by which I mean, make sure they don't invite the very person you have a problem with. I'd go so far as to have the game on a different day than the old GM's game, so they don't have to choose.

Err, but it is easy to give advice. If this is a safe space for you to vent, then you can do that too.

The Insanity
2020-02-28, 06:14 PM
My only alternative would be online groups, like Roll20, but im old and computers are the devil.
What about pbp (play-by-post)? You're posting on this forum, you might try joining a game here.

DeTess
2020-02-28, 06:46 PM
Apparently, they dont want to validate the situation, because He and I get equally loud/argumentative over these sorts of things. They'd rather play "Bad d&d, then no d&d" because atleast they get to play.



It sounds to me like taking over in the GM seat should allow the rest of the players to easily make the decision to give your game a try though. Spriteless gave some pretty good advice for running a game with minimal effort, and after you running a game for a while, one of the others will likely have some ideas for a game of their own as well, so you can switch positions and play for a while.

Jay R
2020-02-28, 07:34 PM
I have a couple of different points to make.

First of all, the DM is 100% right on one issue, but he then applies that in a 100% wrong way. And you're helping him to do it.

Yes, the DM has the authority to overrule anything in the rules or the module. But that is a great power, and the Spider-Man principle applies: “With great power comes great responsibility.” That power exists as a way to fix problems that come up in the game, and to improve the players’ experience. If the players are complaining that it made the experience worse, then he failed. The problem isn’t that he changed things. The problem is that he made things worse.

Saying he has the power to do it is like a jury convicting somebody that they know is innocent, and justifying it by saying that they have the right to decide the verdict. It’s like a teacher defending a poor class where nobody is learning anything by pointing out that it’s their right to decide what the classroom activities will be. Yes, it is their right to make that decision. But it is equally their responsibility to make that decision right.

Don’t argue about whether the DM can change the rules by fiat. He can. He didn’t overstep his rights, and that isn’t your problem anyway. The problem is that he made the game frustrating and upsetting.

As long as you focus on the tool he used to hurt the game, rather than the fact that he hurt it, you cannot convince him of anything, because he knows he can use that tool.

Second point. He ran a game, made some bad mistakes, and now his players are all upset with him. How do you think he feels right now?

My guess is that he is a somewhat inexperienced DM, and a little bit immature. Those are both fixable over time, but neither of them are fixable quickly. I suspect that he feels guilty about how he handled the game, and that makes him more defensive. By hammering on whether he has the “right” to change the rules, you are forcing him to push back, because that’s the only aspect of the situation that can be defended.

I recommend that, if possible, you take a new approach. Be sympathetic with the difficult situation he’s in. Tell him that you know how hard it is to balance all the decisions when you are making them with no time to think, and suggest that maybe he got in over his head a little in the middle of the game. Suggest that yes, he has the ability to change things, but when changing them upsets the players, then maybe he made a bad choice about when and how to change things.

But recognize that running a game is a difficult job, let him know that you realize that he is in an uncomfortable situation now, too, and see if you can find some common ground. You want him to see your side. The first step towards that is to see his. If you can’t see both sides, then neither will he.

Yes, I am suggesting something very difficult to do. Are you up to it?

The one fact I'm sure of is this: this situation cannot be fixed by treating the DM like the enemy of the players. Whatever solution you find will require you all to feel like you’re on the same side. Maybe you can cross that barrier first.

If you can do that, I will be impressed; it won't be easy. But you play D&D. Facing difficult challenges is the point of the game.

So put on your Helm of Understanding and your Ring of Clear Thought, pick up your Rod of Empathy, and make the best Diplomacy rolls you can.

Good luck!

Mongobear
2020-02-28, 11:55 PM
You want my advice, to game without dealing with a GM who you can't deal with?

Run a game. Get with the players, ask if they would like to play a game with you. Just a low key game. Something simple to start with, like Honey Bear, or RISUS, or hell if you're more comfortable with D&D stick with that. But KEEP IT SIMPLE< SILLY> See if you can rope another player into GMing every other week. Maybe with the loudest fellow player who is on your side as the other GM. Another reason to keep it simple, is so they don't feel obligated to do work. Reciprocal GMing.

Lazy GM advice: Often when I run I have no big plot planned, I just ask where they're going and what their goals are, and put an encounter with some monsters appropriate to the PCs' levels in the way, and describe the monsters as looking kind of like something that belongs there. A pack of monsters looked just like talking wolves, but had the exact stats of ork shamans plus a wolf's pack tactics, was in the Mournland guarding a crystal cratered under a derelict airship. Because an ork shaman was about the right level to challenge them. And I thought it was funny for puppies to use the 'Command' spell on humanoids. And they wanted an airship. And this means the next few sessions are seeking out airship parts, which will all happen to be in maps I have.

Be sure to talk with the players ahead of time so they don't go with the Geek Social Fallacy of Friendship is Transitive, by which I mean, make sure they don't invite the very person you have a problem with. I'd go so far as to have the game on a different day than the old GM's game, so they don't have to choose.

Err, but it is easy to give advice. If this is a safe space for you to vent, then you can do that too.

I have already offered to take over GMing CotCT, it's just an issue with the others having to explain that we would be removing the Bad DM from the group. They're not the most socially comfortable, and avoid conflict all the time.

Im also not that inexperienced at DMing, I have been DMing since the early day of 3.5e, so I have no problems with it. The issue is that I have a sort of... reputation in our local meta, as being "Bad" for having my worlds suddenly end, due to in-game actions taken by this Bad DM running completely troublesome characters, and ruining everything for me, the other players, and the Plot, that I have quit offering to run it if he is involved. (Seriously, he does the sorts of stuff he has done in this story from both sides of the DM Screen. Power Gaming, Munchkin characters in a casual game for newbies, Chaotic Insane Death God character in a traditional 'Save the World' game, and even bullying others into following his insane plans through threats of physical violonce, both in and out of game) but the owner of the building we play in wont kick him out, and the others are just too awkward to confront him on it, I just try and avoid him at all costs.

My other issue DMing, is a sort of... stage fright. I consider myself a rather good author, i have several short stories I have been working on for several years, and I translated a few into d&d worlds. I love writing up storylines, and plots, and whatnot in my spare time. However, whenever I sit at the table and try to run one of these worlds, my mind goes blank, and I completely freeze up. I prefer modules lately, as theyre not my own creations, and all I really have to do is read off what happens, and run it all like a macro for a computer program.


What about pbp (play-by-post)? You're posting on this forum, you might try joining a game here.


It sounds to me like taking over in the GM seat should allow the rest of the players to easily make the decision to give your game a try though. Spriteless gave some pretty good advice for running a game with minimal effort, and after you running a game for a while, one of the others will likely have some ideas for a game of their own as well, so you can switch positions and play for a while.

Ive tried a PbP once, when I first joined this forum many years ago, and it just sort of... never took off. So, I didnt ever bother again. It also sort of just, feels weird to me. I play d&d for the social aspect, so I dont really get that need fulfilled when I dont sit at a table full of dice and minis, and argue over flat soda and stale chips.



I have a couple of different points to make.

First of all, the DM is 100% right on one issue, but he then applies that in a 100% wrong way. And you're helping him to do it.

Yes, the DM has the authority to overrule anything in the rules or the module. But that is a great power, and the Spider-Man principle applies: “With great power comes great responsibility.” That power exists as a way to fix problems that come up in the game, and to improve the players’ experience. If the players are complaining that it made the experience worse, then he failed. The problem isn’t that he changed things. The problem is that he made things worse.

Saying he has the power to do it is like a jury convicting somebody that they know is innocent, and justifying it by saying that they have the right to decide the verdict. It’s like a teacher defending a poor class where nobody is learning anything by pointing out that it’s their right to decide what the classroom activities will be. Yes, it is their right to make that decision. But it is equally their responsibility to make that decision right.

Don’t argue about whether the DM can change the rules by fiat. He can. He didn’t overstep his rights, and that isn’t your problem anyway. The problem is that he made the game frustrating and upsetting.

As long as you focus on the tool he used to hurt the game, rather than the fact that he hurt it, you cannot convince him of anything, because he knows he can use that tool.


Here's my issue with this. I flat out don't agree with the concept of 'Rule 0' as a principal. At least, not in an all inclusive nature.

I don't have any trouble with stuff like, rebuilding NPC stat blocks into a more varied type of opponent. swapping stats/feats so that you can have an Orc archer, giving the melee Orcs a Greataxe, or a Shield and Battle Axe, or a few slightly better armor, or swapping enemy spellcasters' spell lists, just so you arent wading through the same thing wave after wave, after wave.

I also don't have a problem with custom built creatures, or even homebrewed classes/races/etc, I enjoy doing this myself, as I know a lot of various fantasy genre's that people often ask me "Can you think of a way I can play Geralt of Rivia, I want to be a Witcher!" or, i have a personal favorite World of Warcraft Death Knights, which I have made several attempts at homebrewing in 5e, as both a class and a Paladin Oath.

I ALSO dont have a problem with just completely fudging/ignoring dice rolls, and ruling with the best "narrative" result for the decided action.

However, I am only OK with all of this, as long as everyone involved is informed about it in 'Session 0' so that they actually know to expect things to be different from the written books.

What I am not ok with, are sudden 'Got ya!' rules changes, when a PC comes up with something clever and invalidates your BBEG, or when a lucky crit one-shots a fight you thought would last a few rounds and maybe expend some important resources so that the next fight would be a challenge, or when no apparent reason, other than "I really want to screw with this player's ENTIRE build" a monster suddenly ignores all of the normal rules and has an ability that is literally incurable/unavoidable, or just makes any attempt at negating its powers pointless.

These sorts of things feel very much like the DM is trying to 'Win D&D' and instead of doing the intended job, of being a rules referee and story-teller, it turns into a 1v4 death match, where the DM has the infinite power of the universe at his disposal, and the 4 PCs are just starving half-naked civilians trapped in a dungeon.

This has been EVERY game ever ran or attempted to be ran by this Bad DM in my OP.

((Also, it doesn't help that he is a cheat, a liar, and a thief, and has been caught and confronted over these several times, and STILL hasn't been removed from the group. He must have the highest Charisma and max Ranks in Diplomacy as possible.))



Second point. He ran a game, made some bad mistakes, and now his players are all upset with him. How do you think he feels right now?

My guess is that he is a somewhat inexperienced DM, and a little bit immature. Those are both fixable over time, but neither of them are fixable quickly. I suspect that he feels guilty about how he handled the game, and that makes him more defensive. By hammering on whether he has the “right” to change the rules, you are forcing him to push back, because that’s the only aspect of the situation that can be defended.


I know exactly how he feels, I have it in writing in our Steam group chat.

"So, I know the last session ended badly. And some (most) of you are upset in some form or another.

I honestly don't care. I told you all going into this what to expect, and I am the DM, so all of the changes stand. Deal with it. @[Me] I am not undoing anything to change your Eidolon, the Str Drain stands.

If you don't want to continue, thats on you, whatever, we can replace you easily."

He will never change. This is probably the fourth time since Ive known him that he has done this sort of thing, just this time got much worse, much faster.



I recommend that, if possible, you take a new approach. Be sympathetic with the difficult situation he’s in. Tell him that you know how hard it is to balance all the decisions when you are making them with no time to think, and suggest that maybe he got in over his head a little in the middle of the game. Suggest that yes, he has the ability to change things, but when changing them upsets the players, then maybe he made a bad choice about when and how to change things.

But recognize that running a game is a difficult job, let him know that you realize that he is in an uncomfortable situation now, too, and see if you can find some common ground. You want him to see your side. The first step towards that is to see his. If you can’t see both sides, then neither will he.

Yes, I am suggesting something very difficult to do. Are you up to it?

The one fact I'm sure of is this: this situation cannot be fixed by treating the DM like the enemy of the players. Whatever solution you find will require you all to feel like you’re on the same side. Maybe you can cross that barrier first.

If you can do that, I will be impressed; it won't be easy. But you play D&D. Facing difficult challenges is the point of the game.

So put on your Helm of Understanding and your Ring of Clear Thought, pick up your Rod of Empathy, and make the best Diplomacy rolls you can.

Good luck!


No offense, after the above message he sent all of us, I have absolutely zero sympathy, or even the desire to try and sympathize with him.

I am returning to the group, however, I am totally breaking by fluffy/RP character build, and just plan to power game as hard as possible and totally murderhobo his entire roster of NPCs. Commoners, Guards, the Queen, whatever.

I am going to give him a massive dose of his own medicine, and plan to metagame the absolute hardest I possibly can.

Mr Beer
2020-02-29, 01:07 AM
if it's as bad as you say and the others have the same feelings about this guy, then it should be possible to break away and have a game without him. I would take two players and GM another game if needed or travel to the next nearest town or whatever.

Phhase
2020-02-29, 03:10 AM
I am returning to the group, however, I am totally breaking by fluffy/RP character build, and just plan to power game as hard as possible and totally murderhobo his entire roster of NPCs. Commoners, Guards, the Queen, whatever.

I am going to give him a massive dose of his own medicine, and plan to metagame the absolute hardest I possibly can.

I normally don't advocate for such things, but I can sympathize wish the desire for vengeance. But, if you're deadset on doing it, do be sure you're doing it right. So to speak, try not to get your peanut butter in your friends' jelly (try to avoid ruining everyone's fun rather than just the DM's). Keep ahold of your anger, and channel rather than explode.

As to methods, I can't speak to builds, but a couple of general rules of engagement are applicable here.

A weapon wielded is a weapon stolen.

Plan three times. Plan one is the obvious angle you're approaching something from. Plan two is the true angle. Plan three is the escape contingency.

Make sure everyone knows exactly what they're capable of. A victory born of misunderstanding or subterfuge (like, for example, fudged dice rolls) is meaningless. Don't cheat, simply play your game really well.

Have some art to it. Don't just thrash and maim ineffectually. Nobody will remember that fondly. Even if your final goal is to throttle the setting in your iron grasp, a little style goes a long way. Wait for your moments to come. You risk setting off alarms doing otherwise.

In short: don't be a weenie. Be Old Man Henderson. A hero of the people, by the people, for the people.

Mongobear
2020-02-29, 03:26 AM
*snip*

Make sure everyone knows exactly what they're capable of. A victory born of misunderstanding or subterfuge (like, for example, fudged dice rolls) is meaningless. Don't cheat, simply play your game really well.

Have some art to it. Don't just thrash and maim ineffectually. Nobody will remember that fondly. Even if your final goal is to throttle the setting in your iron grasp, a little style goes a long way. Wait for your moments to come. You risk setting off alarms doing otherwise.

In short: don't be a weenie. Be Old Man Henderson. A hero of the people, by the people, for the people.

I have already warned the rest of the group of my intentions, and nobody has objected, or questioned it.

I just need to think of a really epic goal to pursue, instead of just ruining the lives of the NPCs in the setting. Death is too easy, they need to be collected as chattel, and used against the DM.

Old Man Henderson comes to mind, but also numerous other Legendary tales of when PCs have "Won at D&D"

Tales of an Industrious Rogue and the Glitterdust Lich Gnome come to mind. I want to do something so epic that I can proudly post it on here, and be lauded in D&D Infamy.

DeTess
2020-02-29, 04:01 AM
Here's the thing with trying to win at DnD though: it only works if your DM allows it, or at least plays religiously by RAW so you can force them to allow your tricks. It doesn't sound like this DM will do either.

Also, though I completely understand your thirst for revenge, I really think it'll only make matters worse, so I'd urge you to just break cleanly from this DM and take the group woth you. You mentioned your group disliles conflict, but have you pointed out that the best way to minimize conflict is to break away now?

Oopsibwokeit
2020-02-29, 11:31 AM
Hi, Changeling Witch from the above campaign here. I just thought I'd add in my $.02 as well. I looked up the spider's poison specifically because I thought it was weird that something meant for a level 1 encounter would be throwing around ability drain that early, and OP felt the same so he looked it up himself and contacted me later that night. I can't really say anything about the GM's rolls since I was in no position to see them and generally don't care to look, but I can safely say that every saving throw was made against my abilities save for one the entire night (which is believable, after all I also failed to roll above a 10 on a d20 more than once the entire night. Good/bad nights happen, so I can't personally say anything there one way or the other.) As the night went on, the GM and OP became more and more antagonistic towards each other. I'm not saying none of it was justified, but that's just how I saw things going.

A part of the issue is that we have limited people who do step forward and say "I'll GM!" I myself was in a bad head space to do so for irl reasons, but things are actually looking up now on that front. Another issue is that outside of pathfinder, there really aren't any problems. Games where one of them (current GM or OP) is the GM tend to fall apart when one of them gets into an argument with the other over any number of things, and we've already had the discussion that one of them really shouldn't be playing when the other is GMing. Telling someone to just not show up anymore when we get together to hang out is a bit much for the situation when the problems are only limited to pnp rpgs.

The ideal situation would be we all sit down and talk things over, hoping that it's enough to get things back on track.

King of Nowhere
2020-02-29, 12:47 PM
No offense, after the above message he sent all of us, I have absolutely zero sympathy, or even the desire to try and sympathize with him.

I am returning to the group, however, I am totally breaking by fluffy/RP character build, and just plan to power game as hard as possible and totally murderhobo his entire roster of NPCs. Commoners, Guards, the Queen, whatever.

I am going to give him a massive dose of his own medicine, and plan to metagame the absolute hardest I possibly can.

difficult to say, because we only have one perspective, yours.
if what you say is true, then this guy is a lost cause.
on the other hand, your starting post and some other things make it look like you were highly antagonistic with him from the start, and you were also in the wrong.
I cannot say what it is, because i only have your point of view. given your fellow players reactions, though, i urge you to analyze your situation from outside, because it is likely there is at least some fault in you too.

finally, as for breaking a campaing world, that only works if the dm allows you to. which, knowing the dm, he won't.
even in the unlikely case it works, it won't fix anything. they say revenge has to be served cold, but the reason for it is that you have more time to anticipate it, because anticipation is the only good thing of revenge. once you finally enact your revenge, you realize how big of a waste it was.

Spriteless
2020-02-29, 06:39 PM
Well, maybe it would be easier to switch to board games when the two who don't get along both want to play. They have a weaker reliance on social contract.

Mongobear
2020-02-29, 08:06 PM
Well, maybe it would be easier to switch to board games when the two who don't get along both want to play. They have a weaker reliance on social contract.

See, here is the weird part. When both of us are PC's, we usually do fine. It is something about one or the other having any measurable authority over the other that causes these issues, usually its minor, like misunderstanding wording, or getting spell ranges/effects wrong, which is just a quick 30second google for an answer.

But about once every few years, something major happens, like the OP, and we're instantly at each others throats, ready to draw blood.

Now, personally, I don't have any issues with people disagreeing with me, or questioning why I did something, but I almost always inform players in my games about thing I am changing, usually by way of a printed handout listing of every single house rule I am implementing, guidelines for character creation, world design/culture types/pantheons and even some actual meta knowledge of the storyline. 'Bad DM' however, doesn't give it the time of day, completely ignoring the information beyond the method of stat generation, and shows up with a massive square peg with spinterred spikes and rough edges, and tries to jam it into a round hole of my games, which almost always frustrate me and the others, before I just can't take it anymore, and kill him, which sparks another fight.

((In one session, he had to reroll twice, because of just making a blatantly evil/insane character and automatically attacking a group of guards at a gate, who were just collecting gate entry fees. He murdered 5 guards doing their jobs over 5 silver, at like level 6.)

The difference between us, is that when he DMs, he just phones in everything. He finds a setting, usually one of the pre-made ones like Faerun or Golarion, or even something off the d&d wiki and tries to pass it off as his own, by barely changing names, and hand-drawing maps on Hexographer to make it seem like his city of "Evercold" isn't just a badly plagiarized Neverwinter. Same with his adventures. The very first time he ever DMed, he ran us through a series of encounters and whatnot in a mountain range, and we found a big sword with a Black blade, we had no idea what it was, we were still pretty new, and I didnt find out until years later, that it was a badly "rewritten" White Plume Mountain.

He also is notorious for being an adversarial DM. He can't tell a cohesive story, he has to win, and will WAAC to make sure every single fight he puts us against has every possible advantage for the monsters. He will spring sudden changes on the PCs, at the most inopportune times, pretty much ruining their turns during a critical point in a big fight, even though the exact same action worked fine 2 fights earlier. Then, there is the dice fudging, which, if youre going to do, dont pretend to roll normally just to fool the group into a false sense of fairness.

He just triggers every single one of my biggest "pet peeves" of being a bad DM.

Lord Torath
2020-02-29, 11:00 PM
I'm also going to recommend against blowing up your DM's world. Out-of-Character problems cannot be solved in-character.* For a good example of this, read for the "What am I supposed to do? (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?275152-What-am-I-supposed-to-do)" thread by Trekkin and its two follow (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?282462-The-SUE-Files-Part-II)-ups (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16112819#post16112819). If you try to blow up the world, you're just going to end up with hurt feelings all around. You're going to need to talk this out outside of the game. Lead with personal "I feel" statements. "I feel like you're changing the rules to mess with us, rather than to make the game more fun." Maybe link to Jay R's excellent Rules for DMs (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?592257-Rules-for-DMs), and say that's the sort of DM you want to play under.

If you're DMing, make it very clear, session zero, that you have no tolerance for a disruptive PC who's going to blow up the world for the lulz. The first time his character does something disruptive for the sake of being disruptive, he's out. If he comes with a disruptive PC (an elf in a dwarf-based campaign where elves are the bad guys, for example) tell him "No. Go make a character that fits. Give me the details before next game and I'll introduce your character next session. You're not playing tonight."


* The only exception to this I have ever heard of was here on this board. I'm probably messing this up, but here's what I remember: A DM had a badly-misogynist player, and every time he did something misogynistic in-character, he turned into a donkey for a time. After a couple of years of this, he finally learned his lesson, cleaned up both his in-character and out-of-character behavior, and turned into a decent human being.