Vampiric Touch and Opportunity Attacks

[SociopathFriend]

I'm currently in a Mad Mage Dungeon and having fun trying to make a sort of drain-tank:

Currently 9 levels of Necromancer Wizard, 1 level of Life Cleric, Amulet of Health, Periapt of Wound Closure, the equivalent of a +1 Spellguard Shield, and soon to have Adamantine Breastplate.
Taking average HP per level and a Con bonus of 4 leaves me with 70 HP.
One regular dose of Vampiric Touch is:
Half of 3d6 damage plus 5 hp whenever I land it. If I kill something I then regain an extra 9 hp to boot.
Planning on just piling on Wizard levels from now on to get more magics and more undead. Next level I'm grabbing Chill Touch, Nondetection, and Watery Sphere for respectively reasons of: because Necromancy, because it's useful to avoid detection, and because repeatable Strength save.


However something I'm not certain of is, RAW, can you make an Attack of Opportunity with Vampiric Touch?
Because I'm debating taking either War Caster or Resilient Con as a feat down the line (My Con is naturally 14 but 19 with the Amulet) since my Intelligence is already maxed but one of my debating points is whether War Caster is needed to make an opportunity attack with Vampiric Touch or indeed if it's possible at all even WITH War Caster.

War Caster allows you to cast spells for AoO but it cannot effect you... Vampiric Touch does.
AoO state you must make a melee attack- but that's not a melee spell attack.
Vampiric Touch specifies you need an Attack Action to use it. You do not use an Attack Action for AoO.

[iTreeby]

Unfortunately, vampiric touch can't be used as a reaction attack because it targets yourself not an enemy.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Okay WarCaster's does not work, because it lets you cast a spell in place of an AoO that targets the foe. Vampiric Touch targets self. The reason WarCaster is normally required is you have to cast the spell but Vampiric Touch can be cast ahead of time.

That being said lets go over all the applicable rules outside the feat.



"You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature."
So an AoO has to be done with a melee attack it doesn't specify the kind of melee attack, weapon, claw, unarmed etc. It simply says melee attack. Well what is a melee attack?


Used in hand-to-hand combat, a melee attack allows you to attack a foe within your reach. A melee attack typically uses a handheld weapon such as a sword, a warhammer, or an axe. A typical monster makes a melee attack when it strikes with its claws, horns, teeth, tentacles, or other body part. A few spells also involve making a melee attack.(PHB 195)
Alright so melee spell attacks are still melee attacks.

Now lets look at the spell.



"The touch of your shadow-wreathed hand can siphon life force from others to heal your wounds. Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach. On a hit, the target takes 3d6 necrotic damage, and you regain hit points equal to half the amount of necrotic damage dealt. Until the spell ends, you can make the attack again on each of your turns as an action."

While the spell is active you can make a melee spell attack each turn as an action.

So lets review
1:AoO require a melee attack
2:Melee spell attacks are melee attacks
3:Once cast Vampiric Touch lets you make melee spell attacks
By those three metrics YES you can make AoO with Vampiric touch so long as you cast the spell ahead of time.

The only thing stopping you from making an AoO with an already active Vampiric Touch spell is if you consider this line.
"Until the spell ends, you can make the attack again on each of your turns as an action"
As a hard limitation rather then simply explaining you get multiple touches out of the spell.

[Chronos]

If they wanted it to be usable on opportunity attacks, they would have said something like "you can make a melee spell attack as an attack", or "whenever you would ordinarily be able to make an attack", or the like. This would also allow a caster with the Extra Attack feature to make two Vampiric Touch attacks with a single action.

But they didn't phrase it that way. It gives you a special action option, and so you need to take an action to exercise that option.

[HPisBS]

If they wanted it to be usable on opportunity attacks, they would have said something like "you can make a melee spell attack as an attack", or "whenever you would ordinarily be able to make an attack", or the like. This would also allow a caster with the Extra Attack feature to make two Vampiric Touch attacks with a single action....

It'd be more like "Until the spell ends, you may make the spell attack again instead of a normal attack" or somesuch.

Since it doesn't say that, I'd agree the RAW is that you can't AoO with it. RAI, probably not. RAF, I'd probably allow it, at least if you had War Caster.

[Man_Over_Game]

It's kinda confusing, but from Sage Advice:

Can you use a melee spell attack to make an opportunity
attack?
You can’t if the spell attack is created by casting a spell. When a creature triggers an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to make a melee attack against it. The opportunity attack doesn’t suddenly give you the ability to cast a spell, such as shocking grasp. Each spell has a casting time. A game feature, such as an opportunity attack, doesn’t let you bypass that casting time, unless the feature says otherwise. The War Caster feat is an example of a feature that does let you bypass a 1-action casting time to cast a spell in place of making an opportunity attack.
A few monsters can make opportunity attacks with melee spell attacks. Here’s how: certain monsters—including the banshee, the lich, and the specter—have a melee spell attack that isn’t delivered by a spell. For example, the banshee’s Corrupting Touch action is a melee spell attack but no spell is cast to make it. The banshee can, therefore, make opportunity attacks with Corrupting Touch.

The way I read it, as long as casting time isn't an issue, it seems you're able to attack with *any* melee attack.

This might include Vampiric Touch, depending on how strict your DM rules the difference between "having a list of attacks to choose from" vs. "You can make a Vampiric Touch Melee Spell Attack as an Action". The difference being, is the Touch a special Action, or a generic melee attack with some special rules that costs an Action like any other attack?

The thing that gets in the way is that you don't actually take the Attack Action for Vampiric Touch's effect, which may be indicative that it's not to be considered an "Attack" option for the sake of other features like Opportunity Attacks.

From the Attack Action:
"With this action, you make one melee or ranged Attack. See the “Making an Attack” section for the rules that govern attacks"

Note that it doesn't specify Weapon or Spell attack. Just Attack. So either both the Attack Action (and thus, Extra Attack) and Opportunity Attacks can utilize Vampiric Touch, or neither can. Most would interpret the latter.

A disappointing conclusion.

[SociopathFriend]

Since it doesn't say that, I'd agree the RAW is that you can't AoO with it. RAI, probably not. RAF, I'd probably allow it, at least if you had War Caster.

RAF? I am unfamiliar with that term.

[Man_Over_Game]

RAF? I am unfamiliar with that term.

"Rules as Fun". AKA, "Rule of cool". If it's cool and sensible, make it so.

[ThePolarBear]

No one mentions that, spellwise, you can make the attack only on your turns anyway? It is possible that the Attack of Opportunity happens on your turn, but let's be frank: that's not the first situation one thinks of when thinking about it.

[Lord Vukodlak]

No one mentions that, spellwise, you can make the attack only on your turns anyway? .
That's not true there's no rule that says you can't but normally nothing would give you the opportunity to do so. Attack wise you can only attack on your turn, but an AoO is an exception that lets lets you make one as a reaction

[SociopathFriend]

"Rules as Fun". AKA, "Rule of cool". If it's cool and sensible, make it so.

My DM definitely runs RAF then. I've even got him allowing me to make small cracks/holes in my armor to store my amulets in and seal them up using Mend just so I can ensure they aren't stolen.

[ThePolarBear]

That's not true there's no rule that says you can't

Sorry, from what you quoted:

"Until the spell ends, you can make the attack again on each of your turns as an action."

You are allowed to remake the attack you made when you cast the spell again:

When is your turn
using an action


If it is not your turn, you can't make the attack even if you had an action to spend. Same reason why you can't use Extra Attack even if you Ready the Attack Action and you take the reaction out of your turn: it is not your turn.

Edit: to further clarify: Vampiric Touch doesn't grant you an attack mode or a weapon or provides exception to rules regarding weapons or attacks (Shadow Blade, Magic Stones, Shillelagh). It lets you make one attack. Then, it grants you the ability to make the attack again when the conditions are met. Even if it granted something you could do in place of when you make an attack, you would be still limited to when you can do it: on each of your turns.

[Kane0]

My DM definitely runs RAF then. I've even got him allowing me to make small cracks/holes in my armor to store my amulets in and seal them up using Mend just so I can ensure they aren't stolen.

Well ask your DM if he would be happy using something like this:

Vampiric Touch
3rd Level necromancy
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

The touch of your shadow-wreathed hand can siphon life force from others to heal your wounds. For the duration of the spell, your unarmed strikes deal an additional 3d6 Necrotic damage on a hit and you regain Hit Points equal to half the amount of necrotic damage dealt.
At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 3rd.

[da newt]

Then if your DM goes for KaneO's revised version of the spell, make them regret it by MC into Monk so you can really pile on the number of unarmed strikes per round ...

[Lord Vukodlak]

Sorry, from what you quoted:

"Until the spell ends, you can make the attack again on each of your turns as an action."

You are allowed to remake the attack you made when you cast the spell again:

When is your turn
using an action


If it is not your turn, you can't make the attack even if you had an action to spend. Same reason why you can't use Extra Attack even if you Ready the Attack Action and you take the reaction out of your turn: it is not your turn.

Edit: to further clarify: Vampiric Touch doesn't grant you an attack mode or a weapon or provides exception to rules regarding weapons or attacks (Shadow Blade, Magic Stones, Shillelagh). It lets you make one attack. Then, it grants you the ability to make the attack again when the conditions are met. Even if it granted something you could do in place of when you make an attack, you would be still limited to when you can do it: on each of your turns.

Well then TWO people had mentioned that myself and Chronos, my opinion is the line
"Until the spell ends, you can make the attack again on each of your turns as an action."
Is to clarify the spell has multiple uses and not intended as a hard limitation, but one could rule otherwise.

[ThePolarBear]

Well then TWO people had mentioned that myself and Chronos

Except you (and Chronos) didn't. You mentioned that it is something you can do during a turn, disregarding the "your":


While the spell is active you can make a melee spell attack each turn as an action.

Which leads that if you have an action on someone elses turn, you would be able to use the action to make the attack. That is not what it is written in the spell.

Chronos didn't even enter in that kind of analysis, simply stating that it is his opinion (due to how it is worded) that it was an option you can choose for your action, never touching the fact that it has to be "your" turn or someone elses.

Man_Over_Game analyzed what an Opportunity Attack entails - that it can be *any* melee attack. However, the rules for Opportunity Attacks do not make an exception for attacks that are limited in time, uses, or whatever other reason: if those happen on your turn and can be used on your turn, you are free to use them. If they can't, it is not a melee attack that you can do, and can't use it for the Opportunity Attack - in the same way a monster without a mouth can't use the Bite Attack, no matter what, even if they can make AoOs. If they have a mouth only on their turn and a Bite attack on their turn, they can make an AoO with the Bite only on their turn.

---

"Each turn" and "each of your turns" are not the same, and we have official clarification that this is the case: Extra Attack and Sneak Attack are worded differently, as is Horde Breaker from Sneak Attack.


my opinion is the line
"Until the spell ends, you can make the attack again on each of your turns as an action."
Is to clarify the spell has multiple uses and not intended as a hard limitation, but one could rule otherwise.

I get it. I think it doesn't follow because it relies, at least in part, on ignoring "your". And i don't see where you, in particular, noted that "your" means "any". One line after the other is "each of your turns" - the quote - to "each turn". It just isn't the same.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Except you (and Chronos) didn't. You mentioned that it is something you can do during a turn, disregarding the "your":



Which leads that if you have an action on someone elses turn, you would be able to use the action to make the attack. That is not what it is written in the spell.

Chronos didn't even enter in that kind of analysis, simply stating that it is his opinion (due to how it is worded) that it was an option you can choose for your action, never touching the fact that it has to be "your" turn or someone elses.


If they wanted it to be usable on opportunity attacks, they would have said something like "you can make a melee spell attack as an attack", or "whenever you would ordinarily be able to make an attack", or the like. This would also allow a caster with the Extra Attack feature to make two Vampiric Touch attacks with a single action.

But they didn't phrase it that way. It gives you a special action option, and so you need to take an action to exercise that option.
He mentioned it



The only thing stopping you from making an AoO with an already active Vampiric Touch spell is if you consider this line.
"Until the spell ends, you can make the attack again on each of your turns as an action"
As a hard limitation rather then simply explaining you get multiple touches out of the spell.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying you weren't the first person to bring up the issue.

[ThePolarBear]

He mentioned it

I'm sorry, i don't see where there is a mention that the spell states that it can only be done "on your turn". Or mentions "turns" at all.


I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying you weren't the first person to bring up the issue.

I honestly don't see where someone raised the issue. I see where you stated "That's not true" that the spell states that you can do the attack on your turns alone, and not at any opportunity you can take an action edit: or make an attack. Not even Chronos:" It gives you a special action option, and so you need to take an action to exercise that option"

[Kane0]

Then if your DM goes for KaneO's revised version of the spell, make them regret it by MC into Monk so you can really pile on the number of unarmed strikes per round ...

Well sure, if you wanna sink five spellcaster levels into setting it up.

[Chronos]

There's lots of things the spell doesn't explicitly say you can't do with it. It doesn't say that you can't make five extra attacks with it using a bonus action. It doesn't say that you can't use it on targets 17 miles away. It doesn't say that you can't attack someone on the other side of a floor-to-ceiling stone wall.

It doesn't need to say that you can't do any of these things. You can't do them because it doesn't say you can. The only thing it says you can do, uses an action and must be on your turn, so that's all you can do.