Multiclass Warlock / Bard Question

[SpikeFightwicky]

Howdy folks,

I'm playing a Celestial Pact Warlock and am considering multi-classing into Bard. We're using a variant where short rests take only 10 minutes, so the multi-class is not only character thematic, but also practical (the difference between using Eldritch Master and taking a short rest is 9 minutes...). Likely college is Valor, telling of their own inspiring tales, as the character is a bit of a folk hero.

That being said, and going primary Warlock, what's a good level repartition?

15 Warlock / 5 Bard is what I'm thinking, as a short rest gives both inspirations and pact magic back, though I miss out on an ASI overall.

Am I missing anything that might come back to bite me? Are there any better level splits?

Thanks all!

[RogueJK]

Are you playing at 20th level currently, or close to 20th level? Are you even going to make it to 20th level before the campaign ends?

90% of D&D play is Level 10 and under. So instead of planning for 20th level, it's generally a better idea to start smaller... And to do so, we'll need more info:

What level are you currently? What are you wanting to accomplish with this character, and these particular classes? What are your stats? What is your role in the party? What are your other party members?


In general, when dipping Bard, the typical stopping points are Level 3, 5, or 6.

And Swords is usually a more optimal choice than Valor, with many similar/better abilities. (Valor is considered by many to be one of the poorer/least optimal D&D subclasses, with Swords being a later attempt by the designers to "fix" the Martial Bard subclass concept.)

[SpikeFightwicky]

Are you playing at 20th level currently, or even close to 20th level? Are you even going to make it to 20th level before the campaign ends?

90% of D&D play is Level 10 and under. So instead of planning for 20th level, it's generally a better idea to start smaller... And to do so, we'll need more info:

What level are you currently? What are you wanting to accomplish with this character, and these particular classes? What are your stats? What is your role in the party? What are your other party members?

Oh my! I should have given more information. Sorry about that :smallsmile:

So, currently low level. Level 3, to be specific. Party of 3 plus an NPC that assists in combat. I play a support/damage role in combat, and definitely a face outside of combat. The party has a Barbarian, Paladin and Rogue. The character loves adoration and attention and their pact with the Celestial drives them to gain this from doing good deeds for the common folk. Bards (especially Valor bards) are all about sharing epic tales and heroic deeds, so it feels like a natural fit (and considering I'm not too concerned about missing out the Warlock's lvl 20 ability, so I'm open to adding a bit more versatility). The Bard seems to have many tools to assist in support both in and out of combat, and requires a high charisma as well.

My issue is that I've never multi-classed a character before (I'm usually the DM) and have no idea

If it's a good idea in reality
When to gain levels in bard
How many levels to gain in bard

[JeffreyGator]

I played a lore bard / hexblade TomeLock to level 12 in Storm King's Thunder.

IIRC I progressed as follows (roughly alternating bard and lock)

3 bard
3 bard / 1 Lock
4 bard / 3 lock
6 bard / 3 lock
6 bard / 5 lock

As the versatile / utility player in a strong melee party, I would think that you might not need as much melee as sword/valor gives you.

From the description of helping others and telling tales about them, that mechanically better resembles a lore bard or you could double down on the healing abilities with glamour bard.

Tome Lock gives cantrips from anywhere so you can get guidance (helps people everywhere) and something melee if you want to contribute that way. Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade are both nice here.

Tome Lock also gives you ALL the rituals which might not matter to you if your game is faster with 10 minutes short rests.

At level 2 Bards enhance short rests with extra healing added to hit dice recovery and at level 5 they get inspiration back. Lore bard de-inspiration as a reaction against enemies is amazing. You can lock stuff down by helping them fail saves, while the rest of your party beats them down.

[RogueJK]

Multiclassing is potentially worthwhile. From an optimization standpoint, mixing Pact Slot caster class with a Spell Slot caster class is less optimal than two Spell Slot casters, since Pact and Spell caster levels don't stack for purposes of upper level slots. But it's still viable for some builds.


However, there are still some unknown variables out there...

1) How's your Charisma? If you already have an 18 in Charisma, you can afford to delay your ASI a bit and dip sooner. Otherwise, you'll want to get to Warlock 4 ASAP to boost your CHA. And once you're at Warlock 4, you might as well get to Warlock 5 ASAP for 3rd level spells and your 3rd invocation.

2) What's your Pact? If you're a Bladelock and plan to spend time in melee, you'll definitely want to get to Warlock 5 ASAP to get the Extra Attack invocation. If you're a Tomelock or Chainlock, you can potentially sit at 3/4 for a bit while pursuing a few Bard levels, although you will still want Warlock 5 rather quickly.

3) What are you wanting to accomplish with the Bard levels? Is it just flavor? Do you want extra spellcasting options? Do you want a bunch of additional skill proficiencies? Do you want to be able to rely on Bardic Inspiration frequently? Do you want to boost your melee capability?


Basically, it appears you'll want at least Bard 1 at some point (even if it's just for flavor reasons), and you'll definitely want Warlock 5 sooner rather than later. So with those questions still unanswered, I'll give the following general advice:

A) If your CHA is under 18 and/or you're a Pact of the Blade Warlock, my advice would be to take Warlock 4 and 5 before any Bard levels.

B) If your CHA is already 18 and you're not a Bladelock, you can afford to dip 1 level of Bard next, before returning to Warlock for 4 and 5. But you don't want to delay your 3rd level spells for very long.


As for how many Bard levels to take from there, that's tough to answer without knowing what you want to get out of it. If you just want the Bard flavor, with a few extra proficiencies and a little bit of Bardic Inspiration each day, then stop at 1 level of Bard. If you want to boost your melee capability a little, take 3 levels of Bard and go Swords. If you want to boost your melee capability a lot, take 6 levels of Swords Bard. If you want to boost your allies damage and AC a little, go 3 levels of Bard and go Valor. If you want to boost your skills, take 3 levels of Lore Bard. And if you want to be able to hand out Bardic Inspiration regularly, as well as regularly use the various Lore/Valor/Swords subclass features that rely on spending Bardic Inspiration, take 5 levels of Bard so that your Bardic Inspiration resets on a Short Rest.


So unless you're just wanting 1 single level of Bard for flavor reasons, I think shooting for Warlock 5/Bard 3 is a good short term goal, going either Warlock 5 > Warlock 5/Bard 3, or going Warlock 3 > Warlock 3/Bard 1 > Warlock 5/Bard 1 > Warlock 5/Bard 3, depending on your situation as described earlier.

Then you can reassess and decide from there if you're going to stop at Bard 3 and stick with just Warlock from then on out, or if going for Bard 5 or Bard 6 is worth further delaying your Warlock progression.

[Ventruenox]

The heroic tales bit is more of an RP decision than tied to your subclass. Unless you are looking to share personal tales of mixing it up in melee, taking on a support & ranged caster role will help out your party more. You can still tell tales of heroic deeds, but as has been mentioned, there are Bardic Colleges other than Valor that can strengthen your build.

Glamour (XGE) and Creation (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/UA2020_02_06_Subclasses2.pdf) (UA) Bards can fit right alongside your Celestial pact, and widen your compatriots' possibilities when using Bardic Inspiration. You'll want at least 5 levels in Bard for the short rest recharge, and a 14 Warlock/6 Bard would probably be a better split for the class features. Focus on picking crowd control spells so that your party's martials can do their thing.

[Man_Over_Game]

Good rule of thumb: Never plan for 20. Plan 4 levels ahead, and expect to get half that far.

Very few new tables get more than 5 levels from when they started. And, unfortunately, everyone hopes to be the exception.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Oh wow, thanks for the wealth of knowledge so far! I should have mentioned: I'm a pact of the Chain warlock. I have 17 Charisma, so to get the 18 I need one more level of warlock. Seems like I have at least another level or two before I have to make the final decision. I do like the Glamour college, though it feels a bit to Feywild oriented compared to what I'm looking for. I also somehow overlooked the bonus temp HP that you can give at 3rd level. I'm looking for group buffs / benefits, so Valor or Glamour would be the contenders. Bard 5 also gives the enhanced Inspiration dice.

For thoughts on high level warlocks, I'm not gimping myself by missing out on the lvl 20 ability? It's basically a 1 minute "get your pact magic spell slots back" ability and that's it, right? Even with hour long short rests, it feels a bit weak. Also, we're not allowed UA at this point.


Good rule of thumb: Never plan for 20. Plan 4 levels ahead, and expect to get half that far.

Very few new tables get more than 5 levels from when they started. And, unfortunately, everyone hopes to be the exception.

Good point (and it seems to be what everyone's hinting at). Warlock 5 gives the 3rd level spells, so I may just stick to that for a few levels then see how I feel.

[Man_Over_Game]

If you're still deciding on what kind of bard to be, how much Melee does your team have (not including you)?

A lot? Glamour.

A little? Valor.

That's the short of it.

[SpikeFightwicky]

If you're still deciding on what kind of bard to be, how much Melee does your team have (not including you)?

A lot? Glamour.

A little? Valor.

That's the short of it.

50/50 :smallbiggrin:
Half melee, half ranged.

[Man_Over_Game]

50/50 :smallbiggrin:
Half melee, half ranged.

Personally, I like to opt for more melee than less. A sole Fighter with 50 HP, and two 30 HP Wizards means your party can plan around taking 50 HP. Two Fighters and a Wizard can plan around taking 100 damage.

Since the only penalty for taking damage (besides Concentration) is when you're dropped to 0, dividing it as many ways as possible is a great strategy. Which is why I'd recommend a 60/40 split between melee/range for parties.

So I'd recommend Valor, if you're taking any Bard levels.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Personally, I like to opt for more melee than less. A sole Fighter with 50 HP, and two 30 HP Wizards means your party can plan around taking 50 HP. Two Fighters and a Wizard can plan around taking 100 damage.

Since the only penalty for taking damage (besides Concentration) is when you're dropped to 0, dividing it as many ways as possible is a great strategy. Which is why I'd recommend a 60/40 split between melee/range for parties.

So I'd recommend Valor, if you're taking any Bard levels.

Ah, that actually makes total sense. I like your math! Would something like a Circle of the Land Druid be considered melee?

[Man_Over_Game]

Ah, that actually makes total sense. I like your math! Would something like a Circle of the Land Druid be considered melee?

It's pretty close, with Medium Armor, shields, and 1d8 HD. The bigger issue is its reliance on Concentration spells, which makes it kind of a liability if you're planning on absorbing damage for your allies.

One of the benefits of having a strong front-line is trusting them to hold it so that you can focus on casting a spell that works in your party's favor. A Wizard might choose Flaming Sphere as a reliable tool for his party, if he trusts them to keep him safe long enough to leverage it. But if your Druid is trying to both hold the line while avoiding damage to maintain Moonbeam or Heat Metal, then I'd have a lot less faith in my Druid.

So I'd consider a Land Druid a melee unit, as long as they planned to be a melee unit (such as utilizing the Coast spells like Mirror Image).

I'd say that someone wearing Medium Armor + Shield, has a 1d8 Hit Die, and isn't concentrating on a spell is an apt melee liner. Bonus points if they have a means of avoiding damage (like the Rogue's level 5 feature).