New D&D Setting Book is Mythic Odysseys of Theros! [Archive]

Daphne

2020-02-28, 12:33 PM

EDIT: Pre-orders available on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/dp/0786967013/ref=as_li_ss_tl?keywords=Mythic+Odysseys+of+Theros ).

Clash with the gods of Theros in this campaign sourcebook for the world's great roleplaying game.

Play DUNGEONS & DRAGONS in the MAGIC: THE GATHERING world of Theros—a realm shaped by the wrath of gods and the deeds of heroes, where champions vie for immortal favor and a place among legends.
• Rise above the common throng with SUPERNATURAL GIFTS, abilities that give you remarkable powers that set you on the path to legend.
• Explore Theros as a SATYR or LEONIN—mythic cat-like heroes from Magic: The Gathering. Mythic Odysseys of Theros introduces these races to fifth edition D&D for the first time.
• Master new powers with Magic: The Gathering-inspired SUBCLASSES like the Bard’s College of Eloquence and the Paladin’s Oath of Heroism.
• Encounter MYTHIC MONSTERS, creatures whose power and renown are such that their names are truly living myths.
• Wield the weapons of the gods—five signature artifacts used by Theros's deities.
• Created in 1974, D&D transformed gaming culture by blending traditional fantasy with miniatures and wargaming. Fifth edition D&D draws from every prior edition to create a universally compelling play experience.

Man_Over_Game

2020-02-28, 12:36 PM

Seems like the next book got accidentally leaked (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:K5SZZMpYoOwJ:https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/651895/dungeons-and-dragons-mythic-odysseys-of-theros-dandd-campaign-setting-and-adventure-book-by-wizards-rpg-team/9780786967018/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us), and it's called Mythic Oddyseys of Theros.

Heroism Paladin, Eloquence Bard, Kraken Warlock... all fit the setting pretty well :confused:

I hope this one has more player content than Ravnica, although I'm little bummed out that it's another MtG world.

Source: Dungeons & Dragons Is Crossing Over With Magic: The Gathering Again (https://comicbook.com/gaming/2020/02/28/dungeons-and-dragons-mythic-odysseys-of-theros-magic/)

I have no complaints. Theros gods are physical beings, which means there's a lot of opportunity for some epic quests. Since it's based on our own mythologies, it'd be pretty easy to gather inspiration for DMs to create entire quests. Hell, you could copy content from the God of War series, and it'd be pretty dope.

Ravinsild

2020-02-28, 12:38 PM

I have no complaints. Theros gods are physical beings, which means there's a lot of opportunity for some epic quests. Since it's based on our own mythologies, it'd be pretty easy to gather inspiration for DMs to create entire quests. Hell, you could copy content from the God of War series, and it'd be pretty dope.

I am mildly disappointed because I've been wanting a planar book for awhile now that can be applicable to any campaign. I like MTG, but I quit playing awhile ago and I'm a bit tired of MTG crossovers. I prefer D&D to be D&D and MTG to be MTG. Ravnica is neat, but stuff for everyone is better imo.

Daphne

2020-02-28, 12:38 PM

I have no complaints. Theros gods are physical beings, which means there's a lot of opportunity for some epic quests. Since it's based on our own mythologies, it'd be pretty easy to gather inspiration for DMs to create entire quests. Hell, you could copy content from the God of War series, and it'd be pretty dope.

I do like Greek mythology and this will probably be a lot easier to adapat and use in my games than Eberron or Ravnica, so keeping my hopes up.

Sigreid

2020-02-28, 12:45 PM

It makes sense to do MTG settings from the standpoint of trying to get players of either game interested in the other. It's a marketing decision.

Waterdeep Merch

2020-02-28, 12:59 PM

A little bummed because so many old D&D settings are sitting right there untouched, but I suppose nothing's stopping me from using old source books and using nearest-neighbor 5e stats and just importing weirder mechanics with a bit of tweaking. As happy as I am with the Eberron book, people were happily playing 5e Eberron before it came out.

The Magic worlds, meanwhile, don't really have usable material like that at all, and several are interesting enough to make for good D&D campaigns. I'll just continue to be grumpy that they won't adjust magic to the color wheel.

Might buy it if they can distract my wallet with pretty pictures or stats. More likely if they add some new player options.

Trask

2020-02-28, 01:07 PM

GreyBlack

2020-02-28, 01:38 PM

Telwar

2020-02-28, 02:12 PM

May 19th feels a little close for the UA articles to go through updates.

Though maybe I am thinking the recent ones, not the ones from late 2019.

HappyDaze

2020-02-28, 02:15 PM

I bought Ravnica. I wasn't impressed. I'll be giving this one an easy pass and spending my gaming money on non-D&D products instead.

Damon_Tor

2020-02-28, 02:16 PM

Man_Over_Game

2020-02-28, 02:22 PM

I'd like to see the opposite happen: a MTG set for Forgotten Realms, Maybe Eberron as well. I've felt for a while we need dwarves back in MTG, and now that we have hybrid mana costs races removed from mtg for lack of concept space on the color wheel can fit in between. For example, dwarves and orcs were removed because they occupied they same spot on the color wheel as goblins, but now you can have dwarves be the white/red race while orcs are the black/red race. Similarly, you can have drow as black/green and illithids as black/blue.

I could see it.

Halflings: Green/White
Gnomes: Blue/White
Dragonborn: White/Black
Tiefling: Red/Black
Elf: White/Green

Make them have multiple typings, like Dragonborn being Dragon Human, so that they fit with other sets. Could be fun.

Kane0

2020-02-28, 03:29 PM

Im not thrilled. I would like to see either totally new settings or 5e-ification of classic AD&D ones.
They could even squish say two or three into one book if marketing reckons it’s a long shot.

Tawmis

2020-02-28, 03:49 PM

With Wizards of the Coast being essentially MTG now owning the D&D content...

It makes sense to do MTG settings from the standpoint of trying to get players of either game interested in the other. It's a marketing decision.

A little bummed because so many old D&D settings are sitting right there untouched

This here, sums up the crux of the situation.

I didn't purchase Rav either, because it was content that I wasn't familiar with, nor interested in.

I worry that if they continue to move in a MTG, that I will eventually just have the books that I currently have as a resource.

ZerohFG

2020-02-28, 03:59 PM

Im not thrilled. I would like to see either totally new settings or 5e-ification of classic AD&D ones.
They could even squish say two or three into one book if marketing reckons it’s a long shot.

Corporate Synergy is the key though. They want new consumers, who in turn will have to buy new copies of the old core books, the ravnica book, etc. VS. you the person whose money they already have, and will continue to buy products. It's no different than drawing in people from critical roles fanbase (who are probably more fans of the VA's than the game itself) or the Stranger things, or Rick and Morty box set. They want to expand, and the MtG fanbase is much larger, so they are totally going to capitalize on that. It's not all that bad even, as the rick and morty rule booklet has been a boon for new players, explains mechanics and better examples than the core books.

I would love a new Dragonlance book, or several others for that matter. Even a larger book for the Forgotten Realms setting would be nice. The bigger issue to me however is the lack of a new Core book. Xanathar's released November 15, 2017 and mordenkainen's may 2018. It's now 2020, and we're getting 2 pop culture books. If we are lucky, we might get one by the end of the year, but they seem more inclined to grab new people who'll buy the old books than pushing new rule books for those that already paid. Same money, less work. I do not miss the era of 3rd & 3.5 where it felt like there was a new book every other day, but multi year gaps is just as silly to me.

Personification

2020-02-28, 04:09 PM

I could see it.

Halflings: Green/White
Gnomes: Blue/White
Dragonborn: White/Black
Tiefling: Red/Black
Elf: White/Green

Make them have multiple typings, like Dragonborn being Dragon Human, so that they fit with other sets. Could be fun.

Gnomes are Izzet in D&D. I would also argue that tieflings are more color-balanced with no inherent leanings and most elves fall in Bant (except drow which are Dimir).

Waterdeep Merch

2020-02-28, 04:58 PM

Ah, you know, another thing I'd like to see out of one of these Magic settings- a competent summoner archetype. Yes yes, action economy and slowing down the table, but if they're limited to only having one out at a time via concentration it ought to be manageable. I'd also rather not see it relegated to spells that enhance wizards; they're good as-is. Subclass maybe, but not raw spells anyone can grab.

This is Magic, after all. Most players win via summons.

GentlemanVoodoo

2020-02-28, 05:42 PM

Makes sense marketing wise since Theros Beyond Death was released. But I agree with many here: MTG to MTG and D&D to D&D. I'm personally still waiting for something of Dark Sun to be released.

But if this to be the norm, then at least pay homage to more classic settings. Ravnica I found boring which for me was nothing more than a poor replacement for Planescape. Something like Ice Age or Homelands were at least original and would be better choices for a stand alone D&D module.

Kane0

2020-02-28, 09:08 PM

False God

2020-02-28, 09:18 PM

When I said that Ravnica was going to be the campaign setting of 5e, this is what I meant.

We really need to organize a letter writing campaign to WOTC to tell them NO to the MTG settings. Seriously.

I'll make sure to write a letter in opposition.

I've been complaining that WOTC has been ignoring crazy amounts of awesome lore and world building for 2 decades now.

Evaar

2020-02-28, 09:45 PM

I’m not an MTG guy, but this setting does sound cool. Greek Myth doesn’t really have an iconic mainstream DnD setting but it is a broadly known form of fantasy. I’m good with this. Much more interested in this than I was in Ravnica.

Misterwhisper

2020-02-28, 09:48 PM

Zhorn

2020-02-28, 10:15 PM

... I'm thinking it would make sense to do a handful of MtG settings books for D&D, mostly because they are world they already have a intellectual control of AND a sufficient pool of information on the draw on when writing up the books.

If they were going to go ahead with a spelljammer book in the future - with a few of their previous publications (examples: the Stardock in Mad Mage, Neogi in Volo's, Giff in Mordenkainen's) hinting that it is likely - they'll want to flesh out enough worlds to populate a few crystal spheres beforehand.
The MtG settings are 'new' enough in that it doesn't come across as rehashing works from previous editions (such as the much requested Darksun) but at the same time are easier than making 100% original new settings.

Spriteless

2020-02-28, 10:33 PM

What is Theros all about? What does it bring to the table that I couldn't get by reading up on Greek mythology?

False God

2020-02-28, 11:00 PM

I am sure it will be the same quality as the Ravnica book.

Which is to say outlandishly broken abilities for casters that were obviously only e er lightly skimmed for quality control by actual WOTC staff, meanwhile martials get absolutely nothing.

I feel like I ought to make a witty comment about how this is new and unexpected and WOTC doesn't have any sort of history with this sort of thing!

/blue for sarcasm right?

What is Theros all about? What does it bring to the table that I couldn't get by reading up on Greek mythology?

If you're going to ask the tough questions someone's going to have to ask what any of the old settings brought to the table that you couldn't get by reading XYZ other source material and what's so deserving about them that they need to be reprinted in a new ruleset? Or why WOTC needs to be making any sourcebooks at all?

As an MTG nut: Theros presents the Greek mythology with enough flair as to make it interesting, with creative takes on classical ideals enough to make them "Greek but not Greek". Oh, and it saves you the trouble of having to pull out your Greek mythology book and do that yourself.

Luccan

2020-02-28, 11:40 PM

I'm sure it'll be fine when it comes out. Not exciting to most outside the MTG community, maybe, but fine. Just like Ravnica and Eberron, it'll hopefully have a few things that can be used elsewhere. I don't like it as a trend, though. I'm not really sold on all these MTG planes being unique enough to each deserve a book of their own*. Certainly not a full hardback with 5e's current release schedule. Whatever happened to those MTG/5e articles?

Anecdotal, but if the ploy is to get MTG and D&D fans to crossover more than before (and there was a fair amount of overlap before)... I'm not seeing it happen. It seems either you have an interest in both card games and RPGs or you don't.

*Edit: To be fair, many D&D settings probably don't either. Certainly if WOTC were willing to release updated lore for a few of the "generics" online, I wouldn't complain about them lacking books. No need to make us pay for Greyhawk, Faerun, or... I dunno Mystara? again. But they aren't even updating these settings that people still want some updates on.

Sigreid

2020-02-28, 11:54 PM

Son of A Lich!

2020-02-29, 12:43 AM

Mikaleus

2020-02-29, 01:48 AM

Spriteless

2020-02-29, 06:31 AM

If you're going to ask the tough questions someone's going to have to ask what any of the old settings brought to the table that you couldn't get by reading XYZ other source material and what's so deserving about them that they need to be reprinted in a new ruleset? Or why WOTC needs to be making any sourcebooks at all?

As an MTG nut: Theros presents the Greek mythology with enough flair as to make it interesting, with creative takes on classical ideals enough to make them "Greek but not Greek". Oh, and it saves you the trouble of having to pull out your Greek mythology book and do that yourself.

I mean, so does The Hunger Games. Or would they be Not Greek but Greek instead of Greek but not Greek? I'm going to ask for an example aren't I?

The cover has someone in bronze armor fighting the Hydra. The Hydra has stars in it's shadows. Is Theros Hydra very different from the one D&D already has in the Monster Manual? Is there a reason in particular that it's solo warrior, not Heracles with a sidekick to cauterize the wounds? Because M:tG doesn't have sidekick cards?

I didn't want to sound defensive. Lots of early settings the draw was being able to play at all, then the draw was having a shared history with these fantasy books, before they began inventing weird stuff. Pulp books like A Princess of Mars always had their own cool races like the Tharks, and Dark Sun's the Tri-Kreen and Muls were just as weird in their own way.

Heck if the book has good bronze armor and takes the focus off spellcasters than I will consider it a baby step towards Dark Sun myself. And being more 'down to earth' would make it easier to get the sort of new players in who don't want to learn the kitchen sink that is Planescape, Spelljammer, Ravnica, and to a lesser extent ordinary D&D with the Monster Manual filled with all the cool creatures from Greek, Welsh, Egyption, Aztec, Chinese mythology.

False God

2020-02-29, 09:15 AM

I mean, so does The Hunger Games. Or would they be Not Greek but Greek instead of Greek but not Greek? I'm going to ask for an example aren't I?
It does? I thought it was all just YA love-triangles. Never read 'em, never watched 'em, sorry.

The cover has someone in bronze armor fighting the Hydra. The Hydra has stars in it's shadows. Is Theros Hydra very different from the one D&D already has in the Monster Manual? Is there a reason in particular that it's solo warrior, not Heracles with a sidekick to cauterize the wounds? Because M:tG doesn't have sidekick cards?
Short of the cover playing up "hero fights a monster" with art that fits Theros, I don't think there's much else to it. The "stars" in creatures in the Theros block meant they were "enchantment creatures", usually more magical than usual who could function as both a creature or an enchantment to enhance the abilities of some other creature. In the lore they were more closely tied to the gods and magic.

Heck if the book has good bronze armor and takes the focus off spellcasters than I will consider it a baby step towards Dark Sun myself. And being more 'down to earth' would make it easier to get the sort of new players in who don't want to learn the kitchen sink that is Planescape, Spelljammer, Ravnica, and to a lesser extent ordinary D&D with the Monster Manual filled with all the cool creatures from Greek, Welsh, Egyption, Aztec, Chinese mythology.
I mean I dunno really, it's not as a politically complicated setting like Ravnica, it's not sy-fy like Spelljammer and it's not particularly high magic. It's a highly magical setting that has active gods but not really a high-magic-casting setting? With a lot of focus around heroes going out and fighting monsters for glory and honor and such.

Azuresun

2020-02-29, 09:25 AM

I'll make sure to write a letter in opposition.

I've been complaining that WOTC has been ignoring crazy amounts of awesome lore and world building for 2 decades now.

And I'll write one in support, because this sounds really cool, and a fun place to play with or without the MtG connection.

I feel a little less enthusiastic about seeing 5e Dark Sun every time I see posts like this.

stoutstien

2020-02-29, 09:58 AM

I'm curious how they're going to wrap a new artificer subclass into this.

False God

2020-02-29, 10:07 AM

And I'll write one in support, because this sounds really cool, and a fun place to play with or without the MtG connection.

I feel a little less enthusiastic about seeing 5e Dark Sun every time I see posts like this.

Wait, I just want to make sure, my letter of opposition was in opposition to the person I quote'd opposition, so my letter would be in support of Theros and more MTG stuff.

Daphne

2020-02-29, 10:19 AM

I'm curious how they're going to wrap a new artificer subclass into this.

I don't think there will be an Artificer subclass in this book, Ravnica only had two new subclasses.

Jophiel

2020-02-29, 10:37 AM

Heck if the book has good bronze armor and takes the focus off spellcasters than I will consider it a baby step towards Dark Sun myself. And being more 'down to earth' would make it easier to get the sort of new players in who don't want to learn the kitchen sink that is Planescape, Spelljammer, Ravnica, and to a lesser extent ordinary D&D with the Monster Manual filled with all the cool creatures from Greek, Welsh, Egyption, Aztec, Chinese mythology.
Yeah, when I think of Greek myth, I think of mortals and mortal-adjacents competing against the gods through moxie and ingenuity, not fireball-blasting wizards, bards, warlocks and that sort of thing. Even the stories of Hercules were often about how he couldn't brute-force his way through a problem and had to outwit it.

A low magic Greek-themed setting that tried to actually capture the spirit of the myths would be interesting. "D&D but now with more Minotaurs, Medusa & Hydras!" isn't all that compelling to me.

Trask

2020-02-29, 11:42 AM

A low magic Greek-themed setting that tried to actually capture the spirit of the myths would be interesting. "D&D but now with more Minotaurs, Medusa & Hydras!" isn't all that compelling to me.

It's most likely going to be the latter, MtG and low magic dont cohabit the same multiverse.

I feel like a simple Greek coat of paint on the old (and kind of stale, frankly) magical ren faire superheroes mishmash that is generic D&D would be a breath of fresh air in some ways, if they have the proper feel for the setting.

Characters in Theros (at least the way I'd run it) definitely wouldnt be wandering rootless adventurers-turned superhero types, but the sons and daughters of kings, or even kings themselves, each with a city state to call their own. Not a domain based game though, that would be more of a background element. They wouldnt fight to save the world or to save anyone really, but for personal reasons like their mother (a goddess) told them a prophecy that they would be a great king if they went on this adventure. Or their wife gets enchanted by a satyr king who steals her away to his magical olive tree forest. Or a god who is drowning their lands in rains because of some crime their late father committed that you now must atone for. Every character would have brothers and sisters, it would be more focused around a family and clan aspect.

The characters would still all be hyper magical d&d superheroes of course, not worth it to extract that from the system, but trying to work that into the framework of a greek style world isnt impossible. The combat magical arts like evocation and abjuration are considered on a level with wrestling and weapon use as a heroic, manly art, but illusion and enchantment are used by cowards and witches and it strips you of much honor to use them.

The gods would be less judeo-Christian in morality and cleave closer to the classical "might makes right" and "honor above all" kind of moral code, frequently interfering with the world, creating and solving problems, and making the characters lives more difficult as often as they make it easier. No celestials or fiends but instead the souls of dead heroes and ancestors. Also the gods would be more structured that in regular d&d. Sibling gods, a father god, a mother goddess, a tribe of "enemy" gods, maybe from an older generation. Idk if Theros does this already but it should.

You can do a lot of this stuff without a greek skin of course, but I can imagine a lot of people being eager for a new aesthetic to their d&d worlds and ancient Greece is really attractive for that. It's something everyone who is a part of western culture knows, but it's not overdone or tired, in fact in a lot of ways it's barely explored in fantasy fiction.

Jophiel

2020-02-29, 11:50 AM

Brookshw

2020-02-29, 12:00 PM

Personally I've no real interest as MtG as a setting, but if they came out with a monster manual, that would catch my attention.

Trask

2020-02-29, 12:02 PM

Oh, I had no illusions that they actually would try a low-magic setting to more accurately reflect the Greek myth milieu. Just saying that doing so would make it actually interesting to me as something new.

It would be interesting for sure, but sadly I really struggle to think how such a thing would even be possible. 5e really went whole hog on spreading around spellcasting as a class feature (a good choice I think, since it was always one of the biggest balancing factors and takes up so much design space) but makes low magic basically impossible, unless they came up with some kind of alternative drag and drop replacement system for magic, like manuevers for the spell-less ranger in that UA article.

Luccan

2020-02-29, 02:25 PM

It would be interesting for sure, but sadly I really struggle to think how such a thing would even be possible. 5e really went whole hog on spreading around spellcasting as a class feature (a good choice I think, since it was always one of the biggest balancing factors and takes up so much design space) but makes low magic basically impossible, unless they came up with some kind of alternative drag and drop replacement system for magic, like manuevers for the spell-less ranger in that UA article.

Barring enemies that require or strongly suggest using magic to beat, 5e has removed a ton of the need for magic. In a game of Barbarians, Fighters, Monks, and Rogues, you still get a fair amount of magic, but it's a lot weaker. You're mostly missing healing, which can slow you down, but the rest system means it never stops you. You lose out on resurrection spells (unless you take Ritual Caster), but a lot of tables object to the common place nature of such spells in 5e.

And while it does cut down a lot, you can ban magic outright and get away with it. You don't need a replacement, if you're willing to accept what you lose as part of no or low magic

Sparky McDibben

2020-02-29, 02:25 PM

I am sure it will be the same quality as the Ravnica book.

Which is to say outlandishly broken abilities for casters that were obviously only e er lightly skimmed for quality control by actual WOTC staff, meanwhile martials get absolutely nothing.

*Deep sigh* Look, I don't want to re-litigate old complaints, but Ravnica was amazing. It was basically, "How to do Intrigue in D&D!" Hopefully, this work is just as amazing, and hopefully it's "How to do Mythic Adventures in D&D!" They could borrow heavily from Birthright, and just make it so that there pretty much aren't many high-level casters anywhere. Hell, a lot of the archetypes from last year, like the Oath of Heroism paladin, were explicitly drawn from Greek heroic archetypes, or mapped very closely onto them. So I'm very hyped about this book, and I can't wait for it to hit shelves.

And I'll write one in support, because this sounds really cool, and a fun place to play with or without the MtG connection.

I feel a little less enthusiastic about seeing 5e Dark Sun every time I see posts like this.

Seconded (or maybe that's thirded?) because the more we whine for old stuff just updated to new mechanics, the less likely we are to get it. And personally, I wouldn't be as likely to buy a new Dark Sun book - I'd be much more likely to buy something new.

Trask

2020-02-29, 03:28 PM

Barring enemies that require or strongly suggest using magic to beat, 5e has removed a ton of the need for magic. In a game of Barbarians, Fighters, Monks, and Rogues, you still get a fair amount of magic, but it's a lot weaker. You're mostly missing healing, which can slow you down, but the rest system means it never stops you. You lose out on resurrection spells (unless you take Ritual Caster), but a lot of tables object to the common place nature of such spells in 5e.

And while it does cut down a lot, you can ban magic outright and get away with it. You don't need a replacement, if you're willing to accept what you lose as part of no or low magic

If you disallow the Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, and Wizard, you could probably achieve some semblance of low magic in the sense that magic isnt very powerful and doesnt solve a ton of problems, (leaving the warlock in feels ok to me), but you still have a lot of flashy effects that arent even spells which completely spoil a low fantasy feel. The biggest culprit here being the Barbarian funnily enough. Between barbarians flying around on spectral eagle wings, conjuring physical storms around their bodies, or summoning ghostly spirits, they've really turned the barbarian into a highly magical class. But they arent the only ones, you have Monks who can control the elements, teleport between shadows, and launch bolts of light from their hands. You have rangers teleporting around and turning invisible in shadows. A lot of magic has wormed it's way into the martial realm by virtue of class abilities.

The magic that would be present would indeed be weak though (by D&D standards). It would achieve a sort of medium magic feel, where heroes have magical abilities, but they arent so significant and the world isnt severely impacted by the existence of a few spells which would completely change society (which is what i think low magic fundamentally is)

Amechra

2020-02-29, 03:59 PM

I'm honestly surprised that it's not Alara.

Alara seems to have a lot more D&D elements to it then Theros does. It's literally 5 sub-planes crashing into one another; the campaigns could write themselves.

I also really like the day/night feywilds of the one set that I can't think of off the top of my head. The one that introduced scarecrows with the 2/c mana costs. That was a good setting too.

You want Lorwyn/Shadowmoor, which would also justify all kinds of new races.

I agree with both of these choices... but I don't think WotC is going to do that, because those are both "old" sets at this point, so they'd have a harder time selling them to newer fans (both Ravnica and Theros got a set within the last year or two).

If anything, I suspect that the next MtG setting book is going to be Ikoria. Because that's the next MtG set, you see.

---

If I seem unexcited, that's because I am a Magic fan (kinda-sorta), and they've been messing up their settings pretty hard lately. Honestly, if they're going to make a M:tG book, I'd vastly prefer it if they bit the bullet, wrote up rules for playable planeswalkers, and made a gazetteer of the planes.

Because most planes are kinda small when you think about it.

Nagog

2020-02-29, 05:50 PM

I am mildly disappointed because I've been wanting a planar book for awhile now that can be applicable to any campaign. I like MTG, but I quit playing awhile ago and I'm a bit tired of MTG crossovers. I prefer D&D to be D&D and MTG to be MTG. Ravnica is neat, but stuff for everyone is better imo.

Agreed. Setting-wise, I have my own little homebrew world I run things in, so the MTG books are pretty lackluster, bar Eberron's Artificer class. I would love a book detailing the planes, or perhaps Spelljammer stuff to bring a more cosmic feel to settings that want it. MTG stuff already exists in MTG books, we don't really need 5e books to restate it and translate it into 5e when we can do that ourselves. Content from within D&D's own multiverse would be much more appreciated.

Nagog

2020-02-29, 05:55 PM

If you disallow the Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, and Wizard, you could probably achieve some semblance of low magic in the sense that magic isnt very powerful and doesnt solve a ton of problems, (leaving the warlock in feels ok to me), but you still have a lot of flashy effects that arent even spells which completely spoil a low fantasy feel. The biggest culprit here being the Barbarian funnily enough. Between barbarians flying around on spectral eagle wings, conjuring physical storms around their bodies, or summoning ghostly spirits, they've really turned the barbarian into a highly magical class. But they arent the only ones, you have Monks who can control the elements, teleport between shadows, and launch bolts of light from their hands. You have rangers teleporting around and turning invisible in shadows. A lot of magic has wormed it's way into the martial realm by virtue of class abilities.

The magic that would be present would indeed be weak though (by D&D standards). It would achieve a sort of medium magic feel, where heroes have magical abilities, but they arent so significant and the world isnt severely impacted by the existence of a few spells which would completely change society (which is what i think low magic fundamentally is)

You're absolutely right about Barbs. I hadn't thought about it, but Barbs are the most magical non-caster class. Then again, How else do you add variety to a class who's entire schtick is to be strong and hit things, without stepping on the toes of Fighter?

Misterwhisper

2020-02-29, 06:07 PM

*Deep sigh* Look, I don't want to re-litigate old complaints, but Ravnica was amazing. It was basically, "How to do Intrigue in D&D!" Hopefully, this work is just as amazing, and hopefully it's "How to do Mythic Adventures in D&D!" They could borrow heavily from Birthright, and just make it so that there pretty much aren't many high-level casters anywhere. Hell, a lot of the archetypes from last year, like the Oath of Heroism paladin, were explicitly drawn from Greek heroic archetypes, or mapped very closely onto them. So I'm very hyped about this book, and I can't wait for it to hit shelves.

Seconded (or maybe that's thirded?) because the more we whine for old stuff just updated to new mechanics, the less likely we are to get it. And personally, I wouldn't be as likely to buy a new Dark Sun book - I'd be much more likely to buy something new.

Backgrounds that give casters and only casters access to class cross class spells that they can cast with their main stat, including unique spells like Armor of Agathys and Dissonant Whispers.

Let me know when there is a background that gives cross class exclusive abilities to only people without spells.

We both know that would never happen.

That alone is proof that the MTG material is not put through much play testing by Jeremy or any of the higher ups at WOTC.

Probably next will be backgrounds that give armor proficiency or an extra spell slot.

False God

2020-02-29, 06:28 PM

Agreed. Setting-wise, I have my own little homebrew world I run things in, so the MTG books are pretty lackluster, bar Eberron's Artificer class. I would love a book detailing the planes, or perhaps Spelljammer stuff to bring a more cosmic feel to settings that want it. MTG stuff already exists in MTG books, we don't really need 5e books to restate it and translate it into 5e when we can do that ourselves. Content from within D&D's own multiverse would be much more appreciated.

These two statements are contradictory. If we can get the MTG stuff from existing MTG books, why do we need old D&D material reprinted and translated into 5E, when we can do that ourselves?

You understand that when you say "the MTG stuff exists in MTG books" you're talking about literal books right? Like stories you read? As opposed to the settings for WotC which have been printed across several editions, updating, adjusting, rehashing the same material over and over with rules and maps and stat blocks of how to set them up? MTG doesn't have any of that.

Yeah I like MTG. I'd also like something new for D&D.

We've got a fresh new edition, lets not bog it down with reprinting everything from the past. I don't care if the new stuff is MTG, but I'd like to look at a book and go "I've never done this before!". As much as I like 5E for it's smoothness and simplicity, the "new car smell" wore off quickly. What is it offering me now that D&D hasn't offered me before? Why should I buy a new version of a book/adventure/setting I already have, when I can just go play it again in the system it was printed in previously?

That alone is proof that the MTG material is not put through much play testing by Jeremy or any of the higher ups at WOTC.

Probably next will be backgrounds that give armor proficiency or an extra spell slot.

Because until they printed MTG-themed books, WOTC never made OP caster-centric material and players never complained that mundanes getting cool stuff was "unrealistic". Please, this isn't an MTG problem, this is a D&D problem.

Daphne

2020-02-29, 06:48 PM

Because until they printed MTG-themed books, WOTC never made OP caster-centric material and players never complained that mundanes getting cool stuff was "unrealistic". Please, this isn't an MTG problem, this is a D&D problem.

I'm curious, which 5e material did WotC release that is "caster-centric" before Ravnica?

False God

2020-02-29, 06:52 PM

I'm curious, which 5e material did WotC release that is "caster-centric" before Ravnica?

I'm not going to sit here and pretend 5E exists in a design vacuum.

loki_ragnarock

2020-02-29, 07:04 PM

I've purchased all of the official supplements so far for this edition. Completionist urges and all that.

Despite that, this will have to be on a deep, deep discount for me to consider grabbing it.

I'm one of the people who winced while reading Ravnica because it took up all the design space that Planescape occupied, thus making it likely I'd never see an official update. I'm also not fond of the design decisions in that book. More than that, I don't get any sense of excitement from the lore; I'm a D&D fan, not a MtG fan. As a one off, I can shrug it off and stiff my upper lip and all that, but as a trend?

To put it another way:
The crossover episode felt forced and jarring. I think I'd prefer if Horsing Around and Mr. Peanutbutter's House were to do their own thing, and certainly would prefer it not set the standard for the future of either series, despite the surface similarities between the two brands.

Though I was pretty tickled by Acquisitions Inc. The blatant cross promotion contained therein was on theme for the book and reminiscent of some of the old TSR stuff, thus feeling appropriate. A fairly unique take on D&D, doing something that hasn't already been done by other by-gone campaigns, hitting it's own tone with a flourish that echoes the old timey salesmanship of the old hobby that I can enjoy. I'm hoping Wildemonte - a similarly fan created thing with an online following- will hit a unique niche I can appreciate, too.

Kane0

2020-02-29, 07:07 PM

So how about two settings per book, so you can have a combination of tie-ins, updates and new settings.

Misterwhisper

2020-02-29, 07:23 PM

I'm curious, which 5e material did WotC release that is "caster-centric" before Ravnica?

Also remember that after saying they would keep things balanced and have almost no power creep their very first book they released as a setting book had Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade in it.

Sparky McDibben

2020-02-29, 07:28 PM

Though I was pretty tickled by Acquisitions Inc. The blatant cross promotion contained therein was on theme for the book and reminiscent of some of the old TSR stuff, thus feeling appropriate. A fairly unique take on D&D, doing something that hasn't already been done by other by-gone campaigns, hitting it's own tone with a flourish that echoes the old timey salesmanship of the old hobby that I can enjoy. I'm hoping Wildemonte - a similarly fan created thing with an online following- will hit a unique niche I can appreciate, too.

While I disagree with most of your assessment, I totally agree here.

Backgrounds that give casters and only casters access to class cross class spells that they can cast with their main stat, including unique spells like Armor of Agathys and Dissonant Whispers.

Let me know when there is a background that gives cross class exclusive abilities to only people without spells.

We both know that would never happen.

That alone is proof that the MTG material is not put through much play testing by Jeremy or any of the higher ups at WOTC.

Probably next will be backgrounds that give armor proficiency or an extra spell slot.

I'm not interested in validating your lack of understanding. I think Ravnica was amazing, despite never running a game in Ravnica. Rather, I stripped it for parts and it's been great. A+ to the WotC team.

KorvinStarmast

2020-02-29, 08:11 PM

It makes sense to do MTG settings from the standpoint of trying to get players of either game interested in the other. It's a marketing decision. Bingo. Product line integration. :smallyuk:
I like the idea of Ancient Greek fantasy blending with the D&D milieu, but I'm also of the opinion that these MtG/D&D crossovers are getting old, especially when there are perfectly good D&D settings that are laying untouched and dusty. Likewise. Dark Sun, eh?

When I said that Ravnica was going to be the campaign setting of 5e, this is what I meant. Well, I said things that are not printable, so I'll not repeat that here. :smallconfused:

Im not thrilled. I would like to see either totally new settings or 5e-ification of classic AD&D ones. yeah, but power creep is seductive.
Personally I've no real interest as MtG as a setting, but if they came out with a monster manual, that would catch my attention. Maybe? Then again, I thought the Fiend Folio sucked badly when it first came out for AD&D 1e. Tastes differ, I guess.

Also remember that after saying they would keep things balanced and have almost no power creep their very first book they released as a setting book had Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade in it. Yeah, but most classes in SCAG were not overpowered. (Mind you, I really like the Arcana Cleric and am still annoyed that it was not included in XgTE).

Mjolnirbear

2020-02-29, 08:13 PM

I am sure it will be the same quality as the Ravnica book.

Which is to say outlandishly broken abilities for casters that were obviously only e er lightly skimmed for quality control by actual WOTC staff, meanwhile martials get absolutely nothing.

Which is odd, because greek myths are chock-full of impressively heroic specimens of martials. Hercules? Achilles? The entire nation of Sparta? Arguably a setting where martials are, or should be, impressively favoured.

Brookshw

2020-02-29, 08:24 PM

. Maybe? Then again, I thought the Fiend Folio sucked badly when it first came out for AD&D 1e. Tastes differ, I guess.

Well, you weren't wrong. A lot of the 1e stuff was pretty rough and cobbled together, though by the time they flushed it out in dragon/dungeon magazine much, or at least some, improved. That aside, MMs are always easier for me as I know I'm just going to cherry pick based on what I need for an adventure. There's an honesty to the transaction.

Temperjoke

2020-03-01, 12:34 AM

"This rumor isn't what I want to hear, and I hate it."

That's what I'm getting from a lot of the posts here.

Frankly, I enjoyed the Ravnica book and if they decide to give us more from the MTG universe, then I'm interested in seeing it.

Kane0

2020-03-01, 01:16 AM

"This rumor isn't what I want to hear, and I hate it."

That's what I'm getting from a lot of the posts here.

Its feedback. Most feedback is negative, even if extrapolated from questionable sources.

Ortho

2020-03-01, 03:14 AM

Its feedback. Most feedback is negative, even if extrapolated from questionable sources.

Feedback on what, exactly? We have a cover and a release date, neither of which have been confirmed. Everything else is guesswork.
Heck, I don't think this is even likely to happen at all, given that Explorer's Guide to Wildmount is coming out on the 17th. The timing is just not right; when has Wizards ever released two major sourcebooks only two months apart?

Azuresun

2020-03-01, 03:14 AM

Wait, I just want to make sure, my letter of opposition was in opposition to the person I quote'd opposition, so my letter would be in support of Theros and more MTG stuff.

Ah sorry, I misunderstood. Just imagine I replied to the same post you were replying to. :smallwink:

These two statements are contradictory. If we can get the MTG stuff from existing MTG books, why do we need old D&D material reprinted and translated into 5E, when we can do that ourselves?

And the thing is, for several settings, we really don't need an update. I have the 3e Forgotten Realms book, and I could use 5e to run a campaign there right now, with little or no need for new material. All I miss out on is lore updates, which don't matter to my hypothetical bunch of low-level heroes starting out in the Dalelands (and which sound like the sort of "big setting-shattering crisis and then hit the reset button" mess that means I don't read DC comics).

Jophiel

2020-03-01, 08:04 AM

Feedback on what, exactly? We have a cover and a release date, neither of which have been confirmed. Everything else is guesswork.
From the cover, we also have a title. And, while "guesswork", it's not uneducated guesswork to think that Theros from the cover is the same Theros as the M:tG setting and that this book would incorporate the major themes from that setting.

That's enough to have an initial impression. Otherwise, why even have a thread: "Here's a thing." "Huh."

Azuresun

2020-03-01, 08:12 AM

A low magic Greek-themed setting that tried to actually capture the spirit of the myths would be interesting.

Even the basic Greek myths are very much not low magic.

Waazraath

2020-03-01, 08:18 AM

While I disagree with most of your assessment, I totally agree here.

I'm not interested in validating your lack of understanding. I think Ravnica was amazing, despite never running a game in Ravnica. Rather, I stripped it for parts and it's been great. A+ to the WotC team.

I think Ravnica is amazing as wel, but Misterwhisper was 100% correct. It is simply terrible design to have backgrounds that give powerful abilities like candy (access to powerful spells) to some classes, and nothing to classes that can't use that specific feature.

Jophiel

2020-03-01, 08:32 AM

Even the basic Greek myths are very much not low magic.
Depends on your baseline. Much higher magic than real life. Lower magic than the standard D&D group. Whatever myth you can dredge up, I can take it and add a couple dudes firing off fireballs and mega-smites and turning into Tyrannosaurs, making it unrecognizable as a Greek myth but just another Tuesday in D&D-Land.

loki_ragnarock

2020-03-01, 11:13 AM

Depends on your baseline. Much higher magic than real life. Lower magic than the standard D&D group. Whatever myth you can dredge up, I can take it and add a couple dudes firing off fireballs and mega-smites and turning into Tyrannosaurs, making it unrecognizable as a Greek myth but just another Tuesday in D&D-Land.

Compared to the stuff Heracles was doing with literally wrestling rivers and holding up *the whole friggan world*, it actually might fit in just fine.

False God

2020-03-01, 11:29 AM

Ah sorry, I misunderstood. Just imagine I replied to the same post you were replying to. :smallwink:

And the thing is, for several settings, we really don't need an update. I have the 3e Forgotten Realms book, and I could use 5e to run a campaign there right now, with little or no need for new material. All I miss out on is lore updates, which don't matter to my hypothetical bunch of low-level heroes starting out in the Dalelands (and which sound like the sort of "big setting-shattering crisis and then hit the reset button" mess that means I don't read DC comics).

Yeah, that's part of my issue with a lot of long-running settings (in many games, comics, movies, etc..) the developers make a change, the change gets received poorly or a new developer things it was a bad idea and then it gets changed back. Or there's some big event that completely alters the setting or some big event that "ends" the setting (not by destruction but like, all the big problems solved, no more lore updates).

I'm not even really into Theros, but I want to support the idea that MTG should get some more D&D books, I just wish they'd pick a world that while probably more niche, would provide much more unique material *coughMirrodin/Phyrexiacough*. Honestly I thought after the Eberron book they'd go Kaladesh, since the new artificer class would fit right in there.

Jophiel

2020-03-01, 12:34 PM

Compared to the stuff Heracles was doing with literally wrestling rivers and holding up *the whole friggan world*, it actually might fit in just fine.
That's a great example, thanks. To start, the point of Hercules was that he was the only earthly guy who could do his stuff. No one else could say "Gonna get 20 Barbarian for that capstone and be like Hercules". And, even then, Hercules' only semi-divine schtick was being strong. He couldn't leap out of the way of traps with his super-senses or see for miles or jump 30' in the air or fight past death. He was just divinely strong. And then, much of the time (heck, maybe most of the time), he couldn't brute force his way through a problem with sweet crits anyway; he solved his problems with ingenuity and cleverness. The point of the task of the golden apples wasn't "Hercules can hold the world!", it was "Hercules leveraged his strength into a plot to get Atlas to get the apples for him and then trick Atlas into taking the world back". In D&D-land, it would be "Let's all bang on Ladon and shoot him with fire until he's dead and then grab all the apples we want". Or maybe just Banish him or Polymorph him into a newt or whatever.

Trask

2020-03-01, 01:30 PM

The point of the task of the golden apples wasn't "Hercules can hold the world!", it was "Hercules leveraged his strength into a plot to get Atlas to get the apples for him and then trick Atlas into taking the world back". In D&D-land, it would be "Let's all bang on Ladon and shoot him with fire until he's dead and then grab all the apples we want". Or maybe just Banish him or Polymorph him into a newt or whatever.

This.

In Greek myth, Circe was a witch/goddess whose weapon was magic, and she didnt sling fireballs, teleport to china, and turn into a t-rex. She turned men into pigs and she befuddled people's minds, that's it. And when those things didnt work, she was just a regular woman, NOTHING like a d&d mage with their arsenal of varied spells. And Odysseus didnt beat her by being able to overcome her magic with his mental fortitude, he got a charm from Hermes that made her magic useless against him. Magic in myths is a nearly unbeatable by mortals without (usually divine) protection, D&D magic is so much weaker and more limited in many ways

D&D doesnt replicate real world mythology at all. You can still have a mythology feel, but you have to build it around the baseline that D&D assumes imo. Getting that to play nice with the Greek costume is the hard part, its end relationship with ancient greece will be similar to what traditional D&D is in relation to the medieval world, only wearing the makeup.

Which is okay by the way. I want to play D&D: Greek Adventures.

Daphne

2020-03-02, 08:16 AM

It's official: (https://www.amazon.com/dp/0786967013/ref=as_li_ss_tl?keywords=Mythic+Odysseys+of+Theros )

Clash with the gods of Theros in this campaign sourcebook for the world's great roleplaying game.

Play DUNGEONS & DRAGONS in the MAGIC: THE GATHERING world of Theros—a realm shaped by the wrath of gods and the deeds of heroes, where champions vie for immortal favor and a place among legends.
• Rise above the common throng with SUPERNATURAL GIFTS, abilities that give you remarkable powers that set you on the path to legend.
• Explore Theros as a SATYR or LEONIN—mythic cat-like heroes from Magic: The Gathering. Mythic Odysseys of Theros introduces these races to fifth edition D&D for the first time.
• Master new powers with Magic: The Gathering-inspired SUBCLASSES like the Bard’s College of Eloquence and the Paladin’s Oath of Heroism.
• Encounter MYTHIC MONSTERS, creatures whose power and renown are such that their names are truly living myths.
• Wield the weapons of the gods—five signature artifacts used by Theros's deities.
• Created in 1974, D&D transformed gaming culture by blending traditional fantasy with miniatures and wargaming. Fifth edition D&D draws from every prior edition to create a universally compelling play experience.

loki_ragnarock

2020-03-02, 09:43 AM

• Created in 1974, D&D transformed gaming culture by blending traditional fantasy with miniatures and wargaming. Fifth edition D&D draws from every prior edition to create a universally compelling play experience.

The "I wish it was Dark Sun" crowd is going to be preeeeeetty salty with that last bullet.

Misterwhisper

2020-03-02, 10:24 AM

Nope, won’t be getting my money.

Also the, supernatural abilities just seems to me like more ways to make phb options obsolete. Or they just decide to balance martials and Casters by just giving martials more magic.

KorvinStarmast

2020-03-02, 10:59 AM

I'm not even really into Theros, but I want to support the idea that MTG should get some more D&D books, And I'd rather they not cross the streams. Tastes differ. MtG is by definition High Magic, while D&D 5e out of the box isn't.

The "I wish it was Dark Sun" crowd is going to be preeeeeetty salty with that last bullet. The "I played Original D&D" crowd can just laugh at how inaccurate that last bullet is; it was swords and sorcery (and a whole 'nother mish mash of stuff to include various pulp stories and LoTR) not "high Fantasy" ... but I suppose most people aren't bothered by the distinction.

Nope, won’t be getting my money.

Also the, supernatural abilities just seems to me like more ways to make phb options obsolete. Or they just decide to balance martials and Casters by just giving martials more magic. One of the things about power creep and bloat: while it is a bit inevitable, the "supernatural powers" thing smells of (Su) and (Ex) from 3.x ... which is a direction I'd rather not see them take.

Nagog

2020-03-02, 11:19 AM

These two statements are contradictory. If we can get the MTG stuff from existing MTG books, why do we need old D&D material reprinted and translated into 5E, when we can do that ourselves?

You understand that when you say "the MTG stuff exists in MTG books" you're talking about literal books right? Like stories you read? As opposed to the settings for WotC which have been printed across several editions, updating, adjusting, rehashing the same material over and over with rules and maps and stat blocks of how to set them up? MTG doesn't have any of that.

Yeah I do understand that. I don't play MTG, but I'm very familiar with their content and the way they push it out. Are you not able to translate concepts from a book or your imagination into 5e?

Yeah I like MTG. I'd also like something new for D&D.

We've got a fresh new edition, lets not bog it down with reprinting everything from the past. I don't care if the new stuff is MTG, but I'd like to look at a book and go "I've never done this before!". As much as I like 5E for it's smoothness and simplicity, the "new car smell" wore off quickly. What is it offering me now that D&D hasn't offered me before? Why should I buy a new version of a book/adventure/setting I already have, when I can just go play it again in the system it was printed in previously?

Because until they printed MTG-themed books, WOTC never made OP caster-centric material and players never complained that mundanes getting cool stuff was "unrealistic". Please, this isn't an MTG problem, this is a D&D problem.

If you look at a sourcebook and say "I've done this before", it sounds like you're either looking at an adventure module or you're not truly exploring the possibilities a D&D sourcebook has to offer.
To make my point further, I bought Rising from the Last War so I could have a physical copy of the Artificer. I read through the rest of the book, and there was some interesting stuff in there, but much of it fit specifically into Eberron, and to bring it into my world would drastically change the flavor and feel of the world. In contrast, when I purchased Mordenkeinen's Tome of Foes, I found it immensely useful for fleshing out the world I was making, and it translates extremely well into pretty much every other world as well. I don't like the MTG books as much because they're very location specific. MTG is great at building worlds and planes that feel unique and special in their own way, but that distinctive flavor often doesn't mix well in a D&D setting should you try to adapt it to another world. Like a mix of sci-fi, high fantasy, and wild west. All great flavors, great settings, but they don't all mix together well. Their distinctive flavors are either lost or the world becomes a hodgepodge Frankenstein's monster of a setting.

stoutstien

2020-03-02, 11:23 AM

Eh I'll wait another 2 years if they do as well with darksun as eberron is. I'm guessing mystics is a large hang up and seeing how they are splitting mystics into Subclasses they are moving that way.

Ravinsild

2020-03-02, 11:59 AM

I've seen posts say in the same breath something something MTG setting something Eberron....Eberron is not an MTG setting. It's a D&D setting that came out with like 3.5.

Daphne

2020-03-02, 12:11 PM

I've seen posts say in the same breath something something MTG setting something Eberron....Eberron is not an MTG setting. It's a D&D setting that came out with like 3.5.

The thing is, both are very different from your standard D&D world. Some people find both books unusable in their games.

And again, when they are releasing a setting inspired by Greek Mythology, it is also very high magic.

Sam113097

2020-03-02, 12:15 PM

I'm actually really excited for this! I feel like ancient, Bronze-age fantasy is a niche that has not been filled by published Wizards of the Coust settings; we have a traditional fantasy world (Faerun), gothic horror (Ravenloft) and magitech adventure (Eberron), but this particular sort of setting seems like it has not been explored in some time.

Ravinsild

2020-03-02, 12:20 PM

The thing is, both are very different from your standard D&D world. Some people find both books unusable in their games.

And again, when they are releasing a setting inspired by Greek Mythology, it is also very high magic.

That's a fair point. Eberron is quite different and very much it's *own thing*.

diplomancer

2020-03-02, 12:41 PM

Never played MtG in my life, but I really like the idea of a greek-mithology inspired setting. Only thing better would be a "glory that is Rome" setting

Sparky McDibben

2020-03-02, 03:38 PM

Rise above the common throng with SUPERNATURAL GIFTS, abilities that give you remarkable powers that set you on the path to legend.
• Explore Theros as a SATYR or LEONIN—mythic cat-like heroes from Magic: The Gathering. Mythic Odysseys of Theros introduces these races to fifth edition D&D for the first time.
• Master new powers with Magic: The Gathering-inspired SUBCLASSES like the Bard’s College of Eloquence and the Paladin’s Oath of Heroism.
• Encounter MYTHIC MONSTERS, creatures whose power and renown are such that their names are truly living myths.
• Wield the weapons of the gods—five signature artifacts used by Theros's deities.

All of this looks great, but the latest issue of Dragon+ also made mention of Piety, indicating it was like Status in Ravnica, but for gods, with, "a zillion tables." Yes! They're giving us stuff we can use AT THE TABLE!

Excellent!

One of the things about power creep and bloat: while it is a bit inevitable, the "supernatural powers" thing smells of (Su) and (Ex) from 3.x ... which is a direction I'd rather not see them take.

Eh, I think if you keep it to those settings where it makes sense (if you're running Greek-style demigod shenanigans, for example) I think it's fine. It's only when it leaks into something like Eberron, for example, that it's a problem.

Never played MtG in my life, but I really like the idea of a greek-mithology inspired setting. Only thing better would be a "glory that is Rome" setting

This is going to be GREAT!

HappyDaze

2020-03-02, 03:38 PM

That's a fair point. Eberron is quite different and very much it's *own thing*.

I'm not really in agreement on that. Most D&D worlds have become far more like Eberron than they used to be, so I don't really see Eberron as being it's own thing anymore.

False God

2020-03-02, 03:46 PM

And I'd rather they not cross the streams. Tastes differ. MtG is by definition High Magic, while D&D 5e out of the box isn't.
As I've repeated, there are numerous MTG settings. Some of which are yes, high magic. Some of them are not. There are also a number of high magic D&D settings. And there probably should be some high-magic settings, be they old D&D ones or new MTG ones for the people who are into that.

5E isn't by definition low magic. It's just 3.5 with the volume turned down. You can run high magic in the system just fine by how prolific magic is in any given setting.

Yeah I do understand that. I don't play MTG, but I'm very familiar with their content and the way they push it out. Are you not able to translate concepts from a book or your imagination into 5e?
You can't really ask me my question to you as though it's an answer to my question. Everyone could do all their own homework and make all their own stuff. Then we wouldn't need any setting books at all! But clearly some of us would rather pay WOTC some money in exchange for them doing our homework for us.

So yes, but just because I can doesn't mean I want to.

If you look at a sourcebook and say "I've done this before", it sounds like you're either looking at an adventure module or you're not truly exploring the possibilities a D&D sourcebook has to offer.
Right, I'm reading it wrong.

To make my point further, I bought Rising from the Last War so I could have a physical copy of the Artificer. I read through the rest of the book, and there was some interesting stuff in there, but much of it fit specifically into Eberron, and to bring it into my world would drastically change the flavor and feel of the world. In contrast, when I purchased Mordenkeinen's Tome of Foes, I found it immensely useful for fleshing out the world I was making, and it translates extremely well into pretty much every other world as well. I don't like the MTG books as much because they're very location specific. MTG is great at building worlds and planes that feel unique and special in their own way, but that distinctive flavor often doesn't mix well in a D&D setting should you try to adapt it to another world. Like a mix of sci-fi, high fantasy, and wild west. All great flavors, great settings, but they don't all mix together well. Their distinctive flavors are either lost or the world becomes a hodgepodge Frankenstein's monster of a setting.
Okay? I don't really see the problem with this and feel the same way about most D&D setting books, which Mordenkeinen's is not. Not every book needs to be usable in every game and at every table and to every gamer. There's nothing wrong with that.

Daphne

2020-03-02, 03:52 PM

About the supernatural gifts:

Embrace your supernatural gifts which give characters an ability score increase.

But also:

“Everyone gets this extra leg up that is a gift of the gods, which is separate from the usual character background. It may be a magical thing about your nature, such as you have the mind of a sphinx and your thoughts can’t be read. Or you might be an oracle, which is an opportunity for your Dungeon Master to give you plenty of adventure hooks. It’s a straight power-up but not a huge power-up,” Wyatt reveals.

So these gifts are more like a 1st level feats.

Evaar

2020-03-02, 03:56 PM

About the supernatural gifts:

The second description sounds cool. The first description sounds .. okay.

Hopefully it's not an either/or situation where you can be an oracle OR get +2 intelligence. If it's both, that sounds fun and could open up some more room for builds that would otherwise be too MAD to work. Especially if they don't raise the max ability score cap from 20.

Yakmala

2020-03-02, 04:49 PM

It's been a long time since I was a regular MtG player. Does the current MtG community care enough about the lore of the card sets that putting out a 5E book from one particular MtG lore setting or another will push them to try 5E if they weren't already inclined to play 5E in the first place?

Daphne

2020-03-02, 05:28 PM

Does the current MtG community care enough about the lore of the card sets that putting out a 5E book from one particular MtG lore setting or another will push them to try 5E if they weren't already inclined to play 5E in the first place?

This is the second MtG crossover, so I'd guess the first was well received enough.

Garfunion

2020-03-02, 06:00 PM

This is the second MtG crossover, so I'd guess the first was well received enough.
While this has been the second official printed book. There are the free Plane Shift pdf guides to many of the MtG worlds. I find myself using two of such worlds, Innistrad(Castlevania-ish) and Amonkhet(Dark Sun-ish).

HappyDaze

2020-03-02, 06:12 PM

This is the second MtG crossover, so I'd guess the first was well received enough.

Well, I can raise my hand for contributing to that the first time. Now I know better.

EndlessKng

2020-03-02, 11:03 PM

I'm interested indeed. Seeing the final versions of Eloquence Bard and Heroism Paladin (the latter being one of my fave UA items thus far) has me pumped. And Theros is extremely interesting, given its mixing of the colors and epic feel.

And for those who are complaining that they're doing MtG over "classic settings," I say here what I said when people complained about the announcement of Wildemount: the game needs new material as much as it needs old material, and arguably more. The fluff for the old stuff is out there, has been out there for years or decades. Yes, I'd love to see a Planescape update, but the game can't remain stagnant, can't keep going back to the well and rehashing the same concepts and not evolving.

Also, looking at publication history, this is the SECOND MTG HARDCOVER EVER. We LITERALLY have had one other MtG hardcover, a year and a half ago. In the interim, we also got AI (which is a parody based in Forgotten Realms but still belongs there), Eberron, and will have Wildemount. And look at how many modules were set in FR as well. It's easier to count the books that weren't (Curse of Strahd, Ghosts of Saltmarsh, parts of Tales from the Yawning Portal - all of which belong to older settings as well, such as Ravenloft or Greyhawk). And THEN consider the other options books like Volo's and Xanathar's. Again - rooted in old settings. I'd much rather see them direct resources away from FR material than from the one book and half a dozen short and free PDFs they have done thus far for Magic. This is a great chance to introduce new themes and concepts alongside a new setting. If you don't want to buy it, fine, but please, let's let some new ideas and worlds into the playspace. They aren't taking up that much room.

saeval

2020-03-03, 01:02 AM

Trask

2020-03-03, 01:40 AM

There is also the 3rd party setting Arkadia by Arcana Games that I thought was pretty decent, the class options especially. The fluff is pretty good as well.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/277656/Arkadia--The-Greek-Setting-for-5e

Not trying to shill or anything but I feel a little bad for these guys and the Odyssey of the Dragonlord guys that their Greek inspired D&D flavors are going to get sat on by the big butt of Hasbro. Almost makes you wonder if it was on purpose so they could corner that market before any 3rd party got too strong a hold...:smallconfused:

*tinfoil hat on*

Kane0

2020-03-03, 04:23 AM

I'm interested indeed. Seeing the final versions of Eloquence Bard and Heroism Paladin (the latter being one of my fave UA items thus far) has me pumped. And Theros is extremely interesting, given its mixing of the colors and epic feel.

Learned my lesson with the last two books to pull that, not getting the whole book for the handful of pages that take my interest.

Ekzanimus

2020-03-03, 05:26 AM

Frankly I am sick and tired of this crossovers. It's a blatant marketing decision and it is not very good looking. MtG settings as D&D worlds are just... wrong. They have their own cosmology and other stuff and they are just too different to effectively take something or other from them and adapt it for other worlds. It will be just another book with a lot of setting-specific stuff which is completely useless for anyone who is not interested in D&D-MtG crossovers and just want to play in classic D&D worlds. And they have soooooo much work to do updating classic settings... Where is our Planescape? Dark Sun? Greyhawk? Krynn? Literally all of the Faerun that is not Sword Coast and its surroundings? Hard pass.

Waterdeep Merch

2020-03-03, 12:45 PM

(I'm coming at this as a DM that enjoys reading new setting material as inspiration for my own settings. I really don't think players will have enough they want from a book like this to seriously want to purchase it, much as how I wouldn't recommend GGtR, E:RftLW, SCAG, VGtM, or MToF to a player)

Mythic monsters sound like they might be addressing my #1 gripe with 5e- that being lackluster boss monsters. I'd at least want to thumb through this book just to read their 'second pass' at making them work.

Curious about the Supernatural Gifts, though it sounds a little more scaled back than what I'd prefer, personally. A set of superhuman-esque features to empower martials without debilitating casters is an interesting way to organically shift party structure to be more martially inclined via a strong incentive. Allowing a barbarian to be as strong as Hercules, a fighter to be invincible like Achilles, or an archer as skilled as Paris is appealing for a more 'mythical' campaign, doling out these features as rewards akin to the hero's journey. Might do just that using this as a springboard.

I adore the piety idea. I do things like it already in one of my games. I'd like to see how they handle it, maybe steal some ideas.

I have a deep love of random tables, so if I grab this book, the omen chart might actually be the thing I use the absolute most. Could get a lot of mileage out of randomized plot twists.

I really like the Heroism Paladin, I bet I'll have a player or two that wants to play that. Not worth the price of admission by itself, but it's a perk. Eloquence Bard is neat, but I doubt I'll see it played much at my tables. I really hope we'll see more original subclasses than this, but after Ravnica, I know better than to hold my breath.

I have two of those 'will only ever play weird races' players that I know for a fact will want to play satyrs. Maybe leonin, but I'm not sure it has any particular appeal over the tabaxi for them.

But the thing I'm most curious about is how much space will be given over to new monsters. In the end, that's the thing I ended up using the most from Ravnica and one of the most useful parts of Eberron for my purposes. I'm the sort of DM that picks up adventure books I don't intend to run just to borrow monster blocks. If we're talking about another 50+, it's worthwhile for me right there.

Not super feeling the hype yet, but I'm leaning on probably picking it up.

ZerohFG

2020-03-03, 01:18 PM

I am fine with the book, I am fine with the settings, I am not fine with the settings people most demand keep getting pushed aside or forgotten. It looks cool, but I will never use this if any MtG player is at my table. When using the Ravnica book, I was constantly told that it was wrong or made no sense, and it was stupid that X would work with Y (even though the book clearly laid out the things being described) So I will use it to pluck items from, but I will never attempt to use the setting while they in the game, even if only as a funny side quest.

Epimetheus

2020-03-03, 04:39 PM

Speaking as someone who only has a gaming group at all because a bunch of my friends are huge MtG fans and agreed to give D&D a try when I told them I could set our campaign in Ravnica, I'm excited for this book. I'm also just a huge sucker for Greco-Roman inspired fantasy in general, so I'm doubly excited for this book.

Kane0

2020-03-03, 05:15 PM

Mumble grumble, the reason i have no FLGS In my area anymore is because the business model of Wargames and CCGs were more lucrative than TTRPGs.

Son of A Lich!

2020-03-04, 01:01 AM

Mumble grumble, the reason i have no FLGS In my area anymore is because the business model of Wargames and CCGs were more lucrative than TTRPGs.

I'm personally convinced that WoTC is the whole reason that we DON'T have a Dark Sun setting yet.

Gotta keep it PG-13 for the kiddos at home. Last thing they want is to get it regulated like the CCA attempted after the Satanic Panic.

I mean, D&D has some questionable elements in it's lore, but Slavery is a pretty big portion of Dark Sun...

Has 5e ever done anything with Red Mages of Thane? I don't remember reading about them in SCAG...

Kane0

2020-03-04, 05:05 AM

‘Mentioned in passing’, such as in Tyranny of Dragons

stoutstien

2020-03-04, 05:18 AM

I have zero interest in MtG but I'll probably end up with the book when they do a bundle sale just to have a passing familiarity with PC options.
Also I love epic boss fights. I'm curious what they come up with.

Drascin

2020-03-04, 05:28 AM

I mean, Theros seems like it works better for D&D than Ravnica. I wasn't a fan of the Rav D&D book because it kinda diluted a lot of what makes Ravnica cool to shoehorn it into the D&D framework, but Theros seems significantly more compatible.

So sure, let's go, I'm into it. And hey, its probably more workable as a gaming setting than Forgotten Realms, anyway.

Ekzanimus

2020-03-04, 05:37 AM

I'm personally convinced that WoTC is the whole reason that we DON'T have a Dark Sun setting yet.

Gotta keep it PG-13 for the kiddos at home. Last thing they want is to get it regulated like the CCA attempted after the Satanic Panic.

I mean, D&D has some questionable elements in it's lore, but Slavery is a pretty big portion of Dark Sun...
Well, WoTC are literally people who are creating and publishing this books so yeah, they are the whole reason we don't have a Dark Sun for 5e - they didn't create and/or published it.
But it can't be just because of slavery or genocide or some need to be PG-13. I mean we already have full-scale body horror (illithids and their creations, demons and devils, undead, krakens and their lovecraftian creations, etc), whole races of sapient-eating creatures like gnolls and religiously indoctrinated raiders like orcs, gods of murder and tyranny and many other cute little things like player-operated vehicles which literally work on screaming souls of the dead. I can't say that even the most rampant slavery will be somehow more terrible than this.

Chronic

2020-03-04, 06:29 AM

Another MtG setting... Meh. Don't get me wrong I don't care about adapting previous setting and have nothing against new settings. But MtG? They are high concept settings without any true thinking to how this kind of world work. They exist only to be COOL. It's perfect for a card game and rather useless when you have to play dozens of hours long sessions in it. Also I love Greek mythology, playing d&d in it...the system isn't made for this kind of story telling, too much magic, characters too powerful and so forth.

Man on Fire

2020-03-04, 08:01 AM

ScoutTrooper

2020-03-04, 08:17 AM

We lived through contradictory Planescape and Spelljammer and both Farfhd and the Gray Mouser and Warcraft getting official dnd settings. MTG is not that far off.

Woah, I just finished Swords in the Mists, the Farfhd and the Gray Mouser series has given me a ton of inspiration for side quests and town flavoring. Especially with two rogues in the party, who actively seek out local thieve's guilds with their Thieves Cant, it has really proved to be a beneficial read.

jaappleton

2020-03-04, 08:25 AM

I apologize if this was already mentioned:

Confirmed - TWO subclasses are in this book

College of Eloquence

Oath of Glory (formerly called Heroism)

Man on Fire

2020-03-04, 08:28 AM

Woah, I just finished Swords in the Mists, the Farfhd and the Gray Mouser series has given me a ton of inspiration for side quests and town flavoring. Especially with two rogues in the party, who actively seek out local thieve's guilds with their Thieves Cant, it has really proved to be a beneficial read.

Not saying this is bad, just that it is not the first time D&D does crossovers.

Amechra

2020-03-04, 11:58 AM

I apologize if this was already mentioned:

Confirmed - TWO subclasses are in this book

College of Eloquence

Oath of Glory (formerly called Heroism)

You know, I almost wish that there was at least one subclass in there that they hadn't put out as UA. Or maybe that's just a sign that I should start ignoring playtest material so that I can be surprised.

I'm just hoping that Satyrs are going to be fun. Because I call dibs on playing a party-girl Bard.

https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=476468&type=card

Waterdeep Merch

2020-03-04, 12:21 PM

I apologize if this was already mentioned:

Confirmed - TWO subclasses are in this book

College of Eloquence

Oath of Glory (formerly called Heroism)

Disappointing, but not surprising.

Though perhaps this will serve as a good warning to players that this book really isn't useful for them. I mean, it has exactly the same number of new subclasses and races as the DMG had, and players don't buy the DMG to play Death Clerics, Oathbreakers, old Aasimar, or old Eladrin. Maybe it's best this way.

Kane0

2020-03-04, 04:06 PM

I apologize if this was already mentioned:

Confirmed - TWO subclasses are in this book

College of Eloquence

Oath of Glory (formerly called Heroism)

Just those two? Yeah will probably give the book a pass and wait for a good deal to sate my urge to collect.

Daphne

2020-03-04, 04:24 PM

Confirmed - TWO subclasses are in this book

Two new subclasses, they are also reprinting some Cleric Domains.

Luccan

2020-03-04, 11:27 PM

Two new subclasses, they are also reprinting some Cleric Domains.

(my underline)

This actually kinda irks me. They keep reprinting things from other books, which if it fits fine, but when we're only getting two new subclasses... It was one thing to reprint goblins for Ravnica and at least Eberron orcs were an improvement, but equal or more reprints to new subclasses just sucks. This seems to be a general problem and not a MTG book one, at least right now, but the other books at least had more to offer in terms of new player options.

Edit: Also, this isn't really related to my dislike of the reprinting and is more general confusion, but why are they reprinting domains? Ravnica had suggestions for how to implement the majority of subclasses, even those that didn't appear in the PHB or GGtR, without reprinting them. Is it to pad it out? So that the random person who buys a Theros book and not Xanathar's feels like they got more out of the deal?

rickayelm

2020-03-05, 03:49 AM

They have to reprint things because of the adventure league rules of core+1. So if there is a order of force clerics in the setting they have to reprint the forge domain of it is not AL legal.

Ekzanimus

2020-03-05, 04:55 AM

They have to reprint things because of the adventure league rules of core+1. So if there is a order of force clerics in the setting they have to reprint the forge domain of it is not AL legal.
It is becoming more and more obvious just how stupid this rule is as it is forcing WotC to implement such design flaws in their books.

Daphne

2020-03-05, 08:14 AM

They have to reprint things because of the adventure league rules of core+1.

It's not because of AL, they reprint subclasses because they see each book as a standalone product. They won't tell you to buy XGE just so you can play a Cleric of Purphoros (Theros' God of the Forge).

Even if you were allowed to use all books in AL they'd keep reprinting races and subclasses.

Ekzanimus

2020-03-05, 08:51 AM

It's not because of AL, they reprint subclasses because they see each book as a standalone product. They won't tell you to buy XGE just so you can play a Cleric of Purphoros (Theros' God of the Forge).

Even if you were allowed to use all books in AL they'd keep reprinting races and subclasses.

Oh, but they are telling us. And it is a common and absolutely normal practice. It is impossible to have all necessary data in one book. If you want this and this you buy another book. It is that simple. Their books aren't standalone products, they are products that compliment one another. Or they'll need to replicate all mechanics, races, classes, subclasses, spells, monsters and everything else in every book that can benefit from it. I understand reprinting races and subclasses if they are gaining something new or different or setting-specific in this iteration - such as Eberron's orcs. But if they are identical than it is just a waste of space and a crutch for the AL ridiculous rules.

Zanthy1

2020-03-05, 09:38 AM

If this is anything like the Ravnica book, this means we're getting stat blocks for the Gods! Considering that in Mordenkaine's Tome of Foes we got stat blocks for the Arch devils and Demon lords of the blood war, it would be nice to have some celestial counterparts. Easily adapt Heliod to Pelor or something.

HappyDaze

2020-03-05, 09:45 AM

It is becoming more and more obvious just how stupid this rule is as it is forcing WotC to implement such design flaws in their books.

That rules doesn't force them; it's just a convenient excuse. I'm sure the ability to get more money for no extra cost by reprinting existing materials is temptation enough for them.

Anonymouswizard

2020-03-05, 05:12 PM

It is becoming more and more obvious just how stupid this rule is as it is forcing WotC to implement such design flaws in their books.

I mean the solution is to do what I do: don't give them money (directly). While a 'player's options compendium' down the line would be a pretty cool thing to have, all player options from books X, Y, and Z in one easy to use package, unless I'm buying such a thing what I want is new content, and WotC books are already quite thin. Although I do buy the Cubicle 7 Lord of the Rings books, because I find them to be high quality without the dreaded reprinting (besides two classes in the corebook and one somewhat more changed one, which makes sense from a 'removing the need to reference two books all the time' sense*).

* Adventures in Middle-earth essentially gives you everything you need except the basic rules. Actually it's the one annoying thing, but the rules for checks, Advantage, and Disadvantage are mostly easy to remember.

Luccan

2020-03-05, 07:04 PM

Misterwhisper

2020-03-05, 08:22 PM

Are MtG options even AL legal? I know Eberron isn't outside Eberron specific adventures, I'd be surprised to learn Ravnica was or Theros will be.

Edit: I'd find the reprints less irksome, as I did for Ravnica and Eberron, if there seemed to be more new content. There are two races and two subclasses. Other player options present will almost certainly be subject to a greater degree of DM whim.

There is no way either will be AL legal, Ravnica gives bonus spells to pick from as a a simple add on to backgrounds and this one is adding in special abilities to add more power.

It is trying to lure in more magic players by going “look stuff from your mythos is way more powerful than anything from the normal setting, isn’t that cool?”

It is just a money decision by bribing new people with power.

Luccan

2020-03-05, 09:50 PM

There is no way either will be AL legal, Ravnica gives bonus spells to pick from as a a simple add on to backgrounds and this one is adding in special abilities to add more power.

It is trying to lure in more magic players by going “look stuff from your mythos is way more powerful than anything from the normal setting, isn’t that cool?”

It is just a money decision by bribing new people with power.

Yeah, it was more in reply to a previous comment about how this is good for AL players. I don't think it is, even if they let just races and subclasses be legal: Unless you want to play one of those two races and a cleric domain that's getting reprinted (not impossible, but seems kind of unlikely since you'll be locked out of a lot of good cleric spells for picking this book and not another), you're not really any better off than if they had printed new stuff. And if you're literally anyone outside that narrow demographic, you gain nothing from reprinted material. I'll also say, if they really, truly, have nothing else ready then fine. I guess it's technically better than a shorter book for the same price. But only if you don't already own the book(s) those subclasses are in or acquire them in the future. Because if you do, the pages might as well be blank for all the value they add.

Spriteless

2020-03-06, 08:36 AM

The reprint means when you lend your book to someone who is only playing because of M:tG, then you only have to let them touch the one book with their calloused, card-shuffling* hands. It also means that they aren't given the impression that D&D is as sick with expansion packs as M:tG.

Also, they're going to start reprinting the "round down rule" and similar oft used rules next to uses of it in grey rectangles, just like they do in the newer UA articles. Perhaps it is a conspiracy to reprint things to make the books look fatter than they are. Perhaps it is just for ease of use, as WotC claims. Who knows what secrets and conspiriacies Jeremy Crawford hides behind his easy smile? (He would say he just wants you to follow your bliss, so if your bliss is arguing on the internet, let me enable you! :p)

*M:tG players shuffle decks so much that those card sleeves save money! It's crazy!

Luccan

2020-03-06, 02:48 PM

ZerohFG

2020-03-06, 03:06 PM

Your sarcasm aside, I'm not saying it's a designer descision. Much like with other media companies, the creative people often have to do what the money people say. I don't think of Jeremy Crawford when I criticise WotC's business decisions. Believe it or not, I can think poorly of the company's direction without despising the people who work there.
I agree with you, that I don't think calling anyone person out in a company, for the company's decision is ever a good idea. That said, his position and role puts him at the forefront of receiving the praise of all the good they do, the trade off is taking the brunt of the bad. He handles both pretty well, and I haven't seen people directly attack him on his twitter or the like. For the most part he's been relatively silent on the issue of the new book. I would imagine it is fair to say that it was not..... particularly well received and he hasn't tried PR spin it like he did wildermont. That was probably the best move, because when he and mercer tried to spin the CR book, they set the stage for this theros to fail. Never tell people who want X that they will be taken care of soon, then announce Y next. Another MtG book was was the wrong product to put out after telling fans of (pick your setting) that it is coming soon. He learned not to promise something that wasn't coming, because we all know Theros had to be in the works for a good long while. We might complain on forums, but our fanbase is at least respectable to the people.

SpawnOfMorbo

2020-03-07, 03:00 AM

I like the idea of Ancient Greek fantasy blending with the D&D milieu, but I'm also of the opinion that these MtG/D&D crossovers are getting old, especially when there are perfectly good D&D settings that are laying untouched and dusty.

I love the idea of Greek D&D, but I'm not hopeful on the quality of the book.

A lot of great taste but poor execution

HappyDaze

2020-03-07, 08:03 AM

I love the idea of Greek D&D, but I'm not hopeful on the quality of the book.

A lot of great taste but poor execution

I wouldn't bet the "Greek D&D" aspect has anything more than the thinnest coating of "Greek Myth" paint as viewed through MtG and then entirely chopped and frankensteined into a D&D work. I have no expectations that it will be anything but poorly done.

SpawnOfMorbo

2020-03-07, 11:34 PM

I don't think I saw it addressed here... But a 3rd party Greek-themed book just came out last month that (in my opinion) is real quality. Odyssey of the Dragonlords. I got it through it's kickstarter, and I've read the first four chapters of the campaign so far in prepping a game and it captures a lot of what Wotc is trying to sell here. Has some over the top subclasses and backstories that lead to power similar to what Wotc is advertising. Also has some fabulous curses, cause who doesn't love curses?

(this is just the free players guide)
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/267073/Odyssey-of-the-Dragonlords-Players-Guide

I just want some of the old settings at least briefly addressed and updated. Something to work off of that isn't complete homebrew adaptation.

Looks cool so far!

There is also the 3rd party setting Arkadia by Arcana Games that I thought was pretty decent, the class options especially. The fluff is pretty good as well.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/277656/Arkadia--The-Greek-Setting-for-5e

Not trying to shill or anything but I feel a little bad for these guys and the Odyssey of the Dragonlord guys that their Greek inspired D&D flavors are going to get sat on by the big butt of Hasbro. Almost makes you wonder if it was on purpose so they could corner that market before any 3rd party got too strong a hold...:smallconfused:

*tinfoil hat on*

I'm gonna take a look at this. I love Greek mythos.

You know, I almost wish that there was at least one subclass in there that they hadn't put out as UA. Or maybe that's just a sign that I should start ignoring playtest material so that I can be surprised.

I'm just hoping that Satyrs are going to be fun. Because I call dibs on playing a party-girl Bard.

https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=476468&type=card

Gnomes in 4e reminded me of Satyrs, fun times.

I wouldn't bet the "Greek D&D" aspect has anything more than the thinnest coating of "Greek Myth" paint as viewed through MtG and then entirely chopped and frankensteined into a D&D work. I have no expectations that it will be anything but poorly done.

Well, yeah, it's 5e... I've shifted my expectations of the quality of WotC.

Great ideas but poor execution seems to be the way.

KorvinStarmast

2020-03-09, 12:20 PM

Well, I pre-odered it. A few of our players are keen for Greek stuff ....

Well, yeah, it's 5e... I've shifted my expectations of the quality of WotC.

Great ideas but poor execution seems to be the way.
More or less, though for my money the class "Artificer" isn't even a good idea.

Necrosnoop110

2020-03-09, 01:46 PM

Any psionic love?

ZerohFG

2020-03-09, 02:01 PM

Not in this book. Only 2 new subclasses. Bard and Paladin. Crawford's words, no more no less.

So the psionic subclasses in UA right now have a long time before they will see an official release.

Necrosnoop110

2020-03-09, 02:07 PM

Foxydono

2020-03-09, 02:24 PM

Skip. Next. This time some DnD content please.

Anonymouswizard

2020-03-09, 02:55 PM

I didn't mind the crossovers when they were free pdfs, but honestly? I'd much rather see an update to a 2e setting that hasn't had official material for two decades, main Planescape and Spelljammer but I'd accept Council of Wyrms or one I haven't heard of.

If they desperately wanted to do Greek Myth I'd rather they go out of their way to make a book that does Greek Myth well, cutting out and adding in classes as necessary or massively overhauling spellcasting to fit.

But it'll have to compete with Mazes &Minotaurs (it's not that far out a game). Because I can get that for free and it's designed to do pop culture Greek Myth from the ground up. It's not even terribly designed if you're using the 'revised edition', there's a good number of classes and magicians are limited enough not to overshadow everybody. In fact most casters don't get flashy magic, it's mostly mental stuff and divine powers, with most martials getting a little trick to help them keep up.

SHIELD WALL!

Brookshw

2020-03-09, 03:19 PM

but I'd accept Council of Wyrms or one I haven't heard of.

There's an interesting choice. I loved the idea when it came out, but the execution was.....eh, and tricky to plan adventures for. Could be interesting if rebuilt from the ground up.

SpawnOfMorbo

2020-03-09, 04:22 PM

Not in this book. Only 2 new subclasses. Bard and Paladin. Crawford's words, no more no less.

So the psionic subclasses in UA right now have a long time before they will see an official release.

Wait, only 2 subclasses? Only 2?

Hahahaha... No way am I buying this. If I want fluff I can get fluff for free. I want mechanics.

Misterwhisper

2020-03-09, 05:03 PM

Wait, only 2 subclasses? Only 2?

Hahahaha... No way am I buying this. If I want fluff I can get fluff for free. I want mechanics.

WOTC does not really care if you buy it, you are already playing DND, they only care about getting the Magic players’ money.

DND does not even bring in 10% of what magic does..

SpawnOfMorbo

2020-03-09, 05:33 PM

WOTC does not really care if you buy it, you are already playing DND, they only care about getting the Magic players’ money.

DND does not even bring in 10% of what magic does..

Magic Players aren't buying this if it's a D&D book. They're gonna save their money for cards, travel, and other expenses... The fluff they can get for free.

5e has been a huge let down so far. The core is a good idea but Homebrew is the way to go if you want anything of moderate to high quality.

Anonymouswizard

2020-03-09, 05:34 PM

There's an interesting choice. I loved the idea when it came out, but the execution was.....eh, and tricky to plan adventures for. Could be interesting if rebuilt from the ground up.

Pretty much the reason I used it, it gives a base to work from and some fluff to base it around, but if stripped back to the core idea and rebuilt into something more workable it'll be a very sellable idea and something quite different.

Plus I'm coming to like the idea of nonhumanoid PCs and the associated challenges with that, and heck if D&D is meant to be a kitchen sink fantasy system then where are the rules for playing cat wizards or wolf rangers? Dragons sound like a good way to get the idea of playing a different shape while still being appealing.

I'd probably deviate from standard D&D assumptions, and give one Dragon race with ten different subraces, including natural weapons and wings (and a note that dragons are intentionally overpowered compared to normal characters), but require players to take levels in classes for things like spellcasting. Declare that most characters in the setting should be level 5 or higher, and use it as an excuse to give advice on writing adventures for high powered characters.

Oh, and rules for attacking fortifications with weapons, spells, dropped rocks, and starvation. Get across that dragons are powerful, and 'you have to cross the desert' isn't as much an obstacle as an excuse to speak up some sun.

Yes, writing adventures will still be hard, but not moreso than for level 15+ normal PCs.

Kane0

2020-03-09, 05:38 PM

The core is a good idea but Homebrew is the way to go if you want anything of moderate to high quality.

More and more true for me as well. I’ve sort of stopped using UA as a window into future content and more as a springboard for my own.

SpawnOfMorbo

2020-03-09, 05:50 PM

More and more true for me as well. I’ve sort of stopped using UA as a window into future content and more as a springboard for my own.

Oh yeah, UA is such a tease. I'm starting to think that UA is a tease on purpose

Unless they put out a PHB 2 with updated classes (fixed and new options) plus actually having rules for social and exploration... I probably won't buy another WotC book.

I might get excited for something Greek themed, but I'll remember that it's a rip off.

Kane0

2020-03-10, 03:48 PM

Oh yeah, UA is such a tease. I'm starting to think that UA is a tease on purpose

Unless they put out a PHB 2 with updated classes (fixed and new options) plus actually having rules for social and exploration... I probably won't buy another WotC book.

Something something blackjack and hookers.

SpawnOfMorbo

2020-03-10, 04:08 PM

Something something blackjack and hookers.

Ok, so hear me out, that wouldn't make for a bad book.

You have a futuristic 5e setting, or just spelljammer, with a Cyclopes (Leela), a Human (Fry), and a Warforged (Bender) (switch in the others as needed) and your goal is three fold.

1) Stop the evil MOM corporation from taking over your employer's company.

2) Deliver packages.

3) Build the best damn space-casino/space-brothel you've ever dreamed of

stoutstien

2020-03-10, 04:13 PM

Ok, so hear me out, that wouldn't make for a bad book.

You have a futuristic 5e setting, or just spelljammer, with a Cyclopes (Leela), a Human (Fry), and a Warforged (Bender) (switch in the others as needed) and your goal is three fold.

1) Stop the evil MOM corporation from taking over your employer's company.

2) Deliver packages.

3) Build the best damn space-casino/space-brothel you've ever dreamed of

If they got a few of the original writers in board I'd be all over it.

SpawnOfMorbo

2020-03-10, 04:27 PM

If they got a few of the original writers in board I'd be all over it.

No matter what, it's gonna be a parody of a parody, so some of the writing needs to joke about the show a bit.

Edit

Also, my username is on point for this discussion.

Witty Username

2020-03-10, 05:00 PM

SpawnOfMorbo

2020-03-10, 05:13 PM

I appear to be in the minority of wanting more mtg content for d&d.
However, I find it frustrating that theros is the setting that we are getting. Marketing is the only reason for it, Theros is the most recent plane revisited in mtg, as was Ravnica at the time of its book. I have played in a Ravnica D&D game and it made me realize how small the city of guilds is for a D&D setting. Many of mtg's planes feel similarly small, including Theros. This is a sign to me that WOTC is not picking worlds from mtg for reasons that would be in line with good d&d settings.

Then again, Theros may work out, and get stuff that make it good as a d&d setting. It does have Nyx, The Realm of the Dead, 10 gods, multiple kingdoms, so it has stuff to build off of.

In summation, I am not mad I am just concerned.

My biggest issue is that they're trying to push D&D and MtG into one thing and they're half-donkeying both D&D and MtG instead of whole donkeying either one.

Seems what would make Theros work for D&D is more the Greek inspired stuff and not the MtG stuff.

Kane0

2020-03-10, 06:21 PM

My biggest issue is that they're trying to push D&D and MtG into one thing and they're half-donkeying both D&D and MtG instead of whole donkeying either one.

Seems what would make Theros work for D&D is more the Greek inspired stuff and not the MtG stuff.

Next thing you know there will be IC minigames of each other, like Gwent in the Witcher.

Mind you i'm fine with something like that in theory, it's handy having a 2-3 player 'D&D' card game to make use of when not all of my group can make a session, but then it becomes another product to support and takes away further resources from true D&D content.

And we already have Three Dragon Ante and Rock Paper Wizard.

Amechra

2020-03-10, 06:26 PM

Then again, Theros may work out, and get stuff that make it good as a d&d setting. It does have Nyx, The Realm of the Dead, 10 gods, multiple kingdoms, so it has stuff to build off of.

It has three "player" kingdoms (Akros, Meletis, Setessa) which are respectively not!Sparta, not!Athens, and "the place where we accept monsters as citizens". One of the big issues with MTG settings in this context is that they tend to be hyper-focused on a single localized event.

Take Ixalan, for example - there's theoretically a Vampire-run not!Europe across the ocean, but we got minimal details on it. And, honestly, we didn't need more details than we got - the sets were focused on a single island, and not!Europe was just a justification for having cool Vampire conquistadors. But if you want to make a full Ixalan setting book, you'd have to come up with actual content for not!Europe, because anyone playing a Vampire is going to want to know where their character came from.

Also, there are technically 16 gods - it's just that one of those gods was Xenagos.

---

Oh, one more thing that's annoying me. Instead of reprinting Cleric Domains, they should have made an Ocean Domain for Clerics of Thassa and a Venom Domain for Clerics of Pharika. Then again, they only gave two of the guilds subclasses back in Ravnica, so what do I know?

We got Azorius Clerics and Golgari Druids. A few obvious possibilities:

• Boros Paladins (Oath of the Firemane. Very... fire/inspiration themed.)
• Dimir Rogues (Arcane Trickster is close, but not quite what I'd want.)
• Gruul Barbarians (I don't have a good name, but the Gruul do shamans at best, and I can't see them being Druids.)
• Izzet Warlock (Come on, "the Firemind" as a Patron is obvious.)
• Orzhov Clerics (Yeah, I can't justify anything else. Wealth Domain it is!)
• Rakdos Bard ("College of Riots" sounds nice.)
• Selesnya Warlocks (Mat'Selesnya is also an obvious Patron.)
• Simic Artificer/Wizard (Best I could do - Simic's whole "we make monsters" schtick doesn't really translate well to D&D.)

I'm annoyed that I couldn't justify a Fighter, Ranger, or Sorcerer subclass, and that Cleric and Warlock ended up with two Guilds each. But seriously, this would've been a better use of page count than giving all of the Guild backgrounds additional spell choices.

SpawnOfMorbo

2020-03-10, 07:12 PM

Next thing you know there will be IC minigames of each other, like Gwent in the Witcher.

Mind you i'm fine with something like that in theory, it's handy having a 2-3 player 'D&D' card game to make use of when not all of my group can make a session, but then it becomes another product to support and takes away further resources from true D&D content.

And we already have Three Dragon Ante and Rock Paper Wizard.

I'm ok with crossing over, when it doesn't affect the core of one of the games.

Same thing with videogames actually

But when you put your dev team to work on fluff and crossovers and don't actually support and update your core... I have issues with that.

Drascin

2020-03-11, 01:10 AM

I appear to be in the minority of wanting more mtg content for d&d.
However, I find it frustrating that theros is the setting that we are getting. Marketing is the only reason for it, Theros is the most recent plane revisited in mtg, as was Ravnica at the time of its book. I have played in a Ravnica D&D game and it made me realize how small the city of guilds is for a D&D setting. Many of mtg's planes feel similarly small, including Theros. This is a sign to me that WOTC is not picking worlds from mtg for reasons that would be in line with good d&d settings.

Then again, Theros may work out, and get stuff that make it good as a d&d setting. It does have Nyx, The Realm of the Dead, 10 gods, multiple kingdoms, so it has stuff to build off of.

In summation, I am not mad I am just concerned.

The thing is, as an MtG player, Ravnica is probably "bigger", as a setting that allows for adventures, than, say, Dragonlance. There's so much you can do with Ravnica. It's like half an Eberron, which puts it solidly ahead of a lot of settings!

But the guide we got for 5E did not really impress. And Theros never felt as open as Ravnica at the best of times already, so...

On the other hand, it is true that the mode of play one expects for Theros, a bunch of superpowered jerks chosen by gods roaming the countryside and ruining monsters'/people's days, maps to D&D significanly easier, so, again, here's to hoping!

Luccan

2020-03-11, 04:00 PM

Anonymouswizard

2020-03-11, 04:21 PM

Assuming I understand it, the current discussion on the depth and breadth (or rather lack thereof) of Theros and other MTG leaves me to wonder if that's also part of the point. It's not like most of 5e up to this point has been as forthcoming with setting info as past editions, even with well established D&D settings. With this, at least they can say "we have you most of what's written about the setting" and you can't blame them for not pushing the setting along; they're not the MTG writers.

Which doesn't really change my displeasure, but it's definitely a more sensible reason.

Eh, I think they might get a better reaction if they used it as an excuse to add more fluff to the setting, set up some new plot threads to be resolved, and expanded the world downwards. Like compared to Ravnica (where I didn't buy the book because I decided there was not only no way would it be the era I'm familiar with, but they wouldn't be able to do all ten guilds justice) I think that a Theros book could get away with really focusing on one thematic element or geographical location and drilling down on the details. Like agree with the MtG designers this corner of the world that can be developed at 'the D&D bit', go into detail on that, and leave the rest as broad strokes of the MtG fluff.

I mean, that's not what they're going to do, they're going to take the route you outlined because setting fluff is HARD. But it's still a possible alternative route.

Luccan

2020-03-11, 04:45 PM

Eh, I think they might get a better reaction if they used it as an excuse to add more fluff to the setting, set up some new plot threads to be resolved, and expanded the world downwards. Like compared to Ravnica (where I didn't buy the book because I decided there was not only no way would it be the era I'm familiar with, but they wouldn't be able to do all ten guilds justice) I think that a Theros book could get away with really focusing on one thematic element or geographical location and drilling down on the details. Like agree with the MtG designers this corner of the world that can be developed at 'the D&D bit', go into detail on that, and leave the rest as broad strokes of the MtG fluff.

I mean, that's not what they're going to do, they're going to take the route you outlined because setting fluff is HARD. But it's still a possible alternative route.

Oh, the practice is still questionable and I'd prefer your solution at minimum, I just think the light fluff of MTG happens to work for 5e's standard setting support and that makes more sense as another reason than just cross promotion on its own. As I've said in the past, I haven't suddenly noticed an influx of MTG players new to D&D and people in my rpg circles aren't suddenly collecting if they weren't before.