A new type of pantheon: Animistic

[Undyne]

In a lot of pantheons for D&D, they seem to often be involving the actual gods, but I personally am fond of Animism, where everything (From objects to an uttered phrase to a philosophical concept) has a spirit, and there are endless numbers of these spirits. My personal interpretation is like the elementals from MtG's Lorwyn, where they could be elementals or ideas- Such as spirits of discovery, darkness, and exploration appearing when a massive dark cave system is discovered, while on a battlefield, spirits of war, honor, bloodshed, and death lurk nearby. They cannot be physically interacted with, and they cannot control the physical world, but some let themselves be seen, and spells take advantage of them- Divine spells calling for their aid, while Arcane forces them into service, which also allows a sort of Arcane vs Divine moral issue around the people.

Thoughts?

[Trask]

I like how it splits arcane and divine around a tangible setting aspect, always felt like default D&D doesnt do that enough.

There is the question of what separates a cleric and a druid though, perhaps clerics worship spirits that protect mortals and suppress the dangers of the wilderness, keep natural disasters at bay, make crops grow ect.

Since everything has a spirit, in such a world perhaps grain could just decide to doesnt feel like growing. The big spirits that clerics worship might force them to grow in order to feed their followers who worship them and make them offerings.

[GentlemanVoodoo]

Your idea reminds me a lot of the power source split done in 4e D&D were Divine, Arcane and Primal (Nature) were all their own thing. In all what you got sound good and reasonable lore wise.

[Chaosmancer]

I'm iffy about making Arcane vs Divine a moral choice.

It can make for a fun setting, but it also forces the player to make a moral choice at character creation, and a lot of classes and subclasses are arcane.

Warlock
Wizard
Sorcerer
Bard
Eldritch Knight
Arcane Archer
Arcane Trickster

Making all of these classes possible to be viewed as "slavers" by forcing spirits into service is a tricky decision that a lot of players are not going to be enthused about working around

[False God]

Are you awarding darkside points when people use arcane spells to cast lightning bolt?

I think it would be interesting for a setting specific setup, but not as a general rule of thumb for D&D. Lota folks don't like moralizing in their games.

I like injecting animism into D&D. I tend to use it as location-specific spirits that have god-like power within a relatively small focus, a lake, a rock, a tree, a small grove of trees, a battlefield, even "idea" spirits that are strong within a group of people who hold that idea.

I will note that the biggest problem I experience is that a lot of players don't have a good comprehension of animism. (for reasons I can't discuss here) Which makes implementing any system involving them difficult because people just don't get it and a lot of folks don't want to put a lot of thinking into a game, or attend a spiritualism lecture while gaming. Something that is unfortunately often necessary to enable understanding.

[Lord Raziere]

actually I think animism would be a great addition and solve a lot of problems clerics currently have fluff wise, there doesn't need to be a spiritualism lecture about it.

currently clerics have this image of being some godly servant who worships one dude and follows it always and such, making them quite boring. you have to do a lot of work to make a character who doesn't just praise their god all the time because thats one dimensional while provoking questions of "if the god is so powerful and you can call for help, why doesn't the god just solve everything?" animism can solve a lot of this, because you don't have to change it mechanically, you can just a cleric who negotiates or deals with like, storm gods/spirits in general and act as a negotiator or mediator between them rather than a servant of one. which opens a lot of newer better relationships to explore, gives the cleric more to do, you just have to say "yea its not as organized as one concept having one universal god, world's a mess a like that, deal with it".

you could have a lot more flexibility what the character can do and believe and how they feel about a god or spirits other than just praying to them as all powerful entities. because it means the spirits are weaker and thus more interactable with the world. you don't need spiritualism lectures for that, because the animist spirits aren't some distant deity that you can't know or comprehend, they're probably very local and limited and thus more manageable for this or that plot, and thus can be treated more as a plot hook npc like a local lord or village leader: they have a problem and your here to fix it.

like you don't have to involve the concepts behind animism, you just have to tell how you interact with them in that world, like I doubt the common npc in that world really understands the concepts either, that is the clerics/priests job, and if the cleric players wants to, they can read up on how it works on their own time. that means four of five players don't need to know, only the cleric player, whereas all-powerful gods have a problem of being all-powerful and therefore everyone's concern.

Edit: and really in a fantasy world, you can just use analogies to dumb it down if people don't care. just say animist gods are like local business compared to the all powerful gods mega-corporation and people will understand, because in a fantasy world thats probably how it might go anyways.

[Chaosmancer]

actually I think animism would be a great addition and solve a lot of problems clerics currently have fluff wise, there doesn't need to be a spiritualism lecture about it.

currently clerics have this image of being some godly servant who worships one dude and follows it always and such, making them quite boring. you have to do a lot of work to make a character who doesn't just praise their god all the time because thats one dimensional while provoking questions of "if the god is so powerful and you can call for help, why doesn't the god just solve everything?" animism can solve a lot of this, because you don't have to change it mechanically, you can just a cleric who negotiates or deals with like, storm gods/spirits in general and act as a negotiator or mediator between them rather than a servant of one. which opens a lot of newer better relationships to explore, gives the cleric more to do, you just have to say "yea its not as organized as one concept having one universal god, world's a mess a like that, deal with it".

you could have a lot more flexibility what the character can do and believe and how they feel about a god or spirits other than just praying to them as all powerful entities. because it means the spirits are weaker and thus more interactable with the world. you don't need spiritualism lectures for that, because the animist spirits aren't some distant deity that you can't know or comprehend, they're probably very local and limited and thus more manageable for this or that plot, and thus can be treated more as a plot hook npc like a local lord or village leader: they have a problem and your here to fix it.

like you don't have to involve the concepts behind animism, you just have to tell how you interact with them in that world, like I doubt the common npc in that world really understands the concepts either, that is the clerics/priests job, and if the cleric players wants to, they can read up on how it works on their own time. that means four of five players don't need to know, only the cleric player, whereas all-powerful gods have a problem of being all-powerful and therefore everyone's concern.

Edit: and really in a fantasy world, you can just use analogies to dumb it down if people don't care. just say animist gods are like local business compared to the all powerful gods mega-corporation and people will understand, because in a fantasy world thats probably how it might go anyways.


I find myself agreeing and disagreeing in parts.

Firstly, I have had little issue with keeping clerics interesting or making sense of the Dieties limitations in my personal settings.

There are rules and the gods must obey them or their power suffers. Also, Gods are not nearly as powerful in my setting as in others.

For example, there are no gods of nature or natural phenomena, because that is the realm of fey and spirits.

And this is where I think I somewhat agree, but also find it hard. Negotiating with spirits and such can be a great way to introduce the basics of animism, though true animism is something I don't understand and that could be where False God is coming from with the spiritualism angle, if you want to portray it accurately it is a little more complicated than just a few tiny spirits in an area.

Also, while I like the idea, I always feel like "negotiating for power" leave the chance for failure and the chance for success above and beyond, and DnD magic is not good for that sort of system. It is too reliable for that.


I also wonder how it ends up working when you have a spirit like unto a god, and then everyone just goes forward the assumption of godhood.

[Lord Raziere]

Also, while I like the idea, I always feel like "negotiating for power" leave the chance for failure and the chance for success above and beyond, and DnD magic is not good for that sort of system. It is too reliable for that.



the mechanics wouldn't be affected. if you have cleric abilities, they'd still work as normal, the difference is that when you go to a god and speak with them, its like speaking to any other npc with the usual social interaction checks. think of the cleric abilities and domain as less something given to by one god, and more of manipulation of divine energy and having specializations of how to deal with certain spirits. like, the gods are weaker so the negotiation is less "you worship me forever and I give you my power as long you obey me" and much more "you got an offering for me? cool, what do you want in exchange? healing people, well I'm a spirit of healing so sure, I'll give you that as a boon, here." and the cleric can just heal people, it doesn't need to be a constant thing.

[ezekielraiden]

Perhaps Animism is a different perspective on magic, rather than its own "pantheon." Call it a "paradigm" instead.

That is, there's between (say) one and three subclasses of each class that uses magic, that instead use the Animistic paradigm, rather than the default paradigm (which I guess would be "Hermetic"?) I imagine you'd want it to look rather different from the standard way things are done, and that it would be an awful lot of work to actually make it balanced and mechanically interesting. Still, it's an idea with some potential.

[Lord Raziere]

Eeeh.

I think thats overthinking it a bit? Xanathar's guide explicitly has a sidebar that clerics can serve entire pantheons, philosophies or forces in some settings and their abilities still work as written. I don't animism is any different when say, you could have a Cleric of The Force, or a Cleric of Chaotic Good, or Cleric of Ki, or Cleric of Empiricism, or even worship electricity since thats technically a force and could be a storm cleric. animism really is just serving an entire pantheon turned up to 11, so I don't see why anything would change, its just that instead of a set pantheon your prayers are to whatever spirit does this or that. like a cleric can be a witch doctor, a shaman, or a vast number of other things without modification in anything but fluff and maybe taking the Nature Domain. 5e is minimalist with its mechanics, so I don't see why you'd have to go to such lengths? like sure a druid is different but thats not really a reason to deny a cleric having different interesting forms of fluff.

like an animist cleric is probably more about physical domains like storm, nature or light than abstract ones like knowledge or war, but even then there are physical forms of both where you can be like a weapon-whisperer who speaks to the souls of weapons, or commune with a spirit of a library or books to find something. and like, animistic pantheon doesn't even exclude having big established gods, there could be a vast hierarchy of spirits where some are more important than others, but you worship and give respect to all of them to varying degrees and the gods you meet most of the time are minor river gods or something. no need for a new paradigm at all, you just need to figure out how the current paradigm can be expressed in a different way. just because you ask a minor water spirit to cast purify food and drink doesn't mean you aren't casting it, just means it has different paint.

[Chaosmancer]

the mechanics wouldn't be affected. if you have cleric abilities, they'd still work as normal, the difference is that when you go to a god and speak with them, its like speaking to any other npc with the usual social interaction checks. think of the cleric abilities and domain as less something given to by one god, and more of manipulation of divine energy and having specializations of how to deal with certain spirits. like, the gods are weaker so the negotiation is less "you worship me forever and I give you my power as long you obey me" and much more "you got an offering for me? cool, what do you want in exchange? healing people, well I'm a spirit of healing so sure, I'll give you that as a boon, here." and the cleric can just heal people, it doesn't need to be a constant thing.

I think you are picturing something different than I am.

So, you want to cast a spell to heal a person right? Let us say Cure Wounds.

In normal DnD pantheons, you have the favor of a god, and that god has already granted you the power to cast Cure Wounds. You've proven yourself a good servant or a devout follower, or whatever the point is, and so you have access to this power.

You can go the entire game and never speak to them. Never actually ask them for anything, because you have been granted power, and using it well is it's own form of worship in a way. Your power should not fail unless you anger that god and it would be a rather extreme act considering a long and fruitful relationship before that. After all, you generally don't kick out a life partner if they leave the toilet seat up. You've been together for a decade or more, and that is petty.


Now, switch to Animism. You want to cast Cure Wounds, you have to ask a spirit of healing. But, the thing is, there are hundreds or thousands of spirits of healing. And they can change depending on who you are healing and where you are healing.

That means, per the lore, you would have to negotiate for your power for every single casting. Every cure wounds is a new transaction, a new deal between you and potentially a spirit you have never dealt with before. And so, even if every healing spirit likes honey and every healing spirit wants to heal, there is a chance that this time you did something to offend them and they don't want to help you. Or, they are really impressed and you get more for less.

And DnD doesn't have a good way to model this at the moment. The mercurial negotiations for every spell is not something that is well represented. Cure wounds never just fails to heal someone, and it never suddenly uses a third level effect for a 1st level slot. The system is too stable to allow for constant negotiations with a rotating menagerie of spirits.


Eeeh.

I think thats overthinking it a bit? Xanathar's guide explicitly has a sidebar that clerics can serve entire pantheons, philosophies or forces in some settings and their abilities still work as written. I don't animism is any different when say, you could have a Cleric of The Force, or a Cleric of Chaotic Good, or Cleric of Ki, or Cleric of Empiricism, or even worship electricity since thats technically a force and could be a storm cleric. animism really is just serving an entire pantheon turned up to 11, so I don't see why anything would change, its just that instead of a set pantheon your prayers are to whatever spirit does this or that. like a cleric can be a witch doctor, a shaman, or a vast number of other things without modification in anything but fluff and maybe taking the Nature Domain. 5e is minimalist with its mechanics, so I don't see why you'd have to go to such lengths? like sure a druid is different but thats not really a reason to deny a cleric having different interesting forms of fluff.

like an animist cleric is probably more about physical domains like storm, nature or light than abstract ones like knowledge or war, but even then there are physical forms of both where you can be like a weapon-whisperer who speaks to the souls of weapons, or commune with a spirit of a library or books to find something. and like, animistic pantheon doesn't even exclude having big established gods, there could be a vast hierarchy of spirits where some are more important than others, but you worship and give respect to all of them to varying degrees and the gods you meet most of the time are minor river gods or something. no need for a new paradigm at all, you just need to figure out how the current paradigm can be expressed in a different way. just because you ask a minor water spirit to cast purify food and drink doesn't mean you aren't casting it, just means it has different paint.


I can see this, I just feel it doesn't convey the flavor I've gotten from Animism in other mediums.

And I think, it is compounded by the OP mentioning Arcane magic as forcing service instead of asking. Because if you have that aspect in the world, then you are acknowledging that the Divine magic users are leaving the spirits a choice to say no. And if the spirits never say no, then there is no point in Arcane magic being enforced servitude.

[Trask]

And I think, it is compounded by the OP mentioning Arcane magic as forcing service instead of asking. Because if you have that aspect in the world, then you are acknowledging that the Divine magic users are leaving the spirits a choice to say no. And if the spirits never say no, then there is no point in Arcane magic being enforced servitude.

This is a good point. If the spirits never say no, then the aspect of their multitudinous nature is just setting dressing (which isnt a deal breaker, in my opinion, but it does mean that it will always just be a bit of setting fluff rather than something that affects the game.)

[Lord Raziere]

This is a good point. If the spirits never say no, then the aspect of their multitudinous nature is just setting dressing (which isnt a deal breaker, in my opinion, but it does mean that it will always just be a bit of setting fluff rather than something that affects the game.)

I mean if you want to make more problems for yourself because of your own assumptions, go ahead. no one is saying you need to make it more than setting dressing. the books certainly aren't. I mean if a cleric can serve an entire pantheon without any mechanical changes or specifying how large the pantheon is according to Xanathar's Guide, then its you thats making it harder for yourself, me on the other hand? don't see any need to reinvent the wheel.

[Trask]

I mean if you want to make more problems for yourself because of your own assumptions, go ahead. no one is saying you need to make it more than setting dressing. the books certainly aren't. I mean if a cleric can serve an entire pantheon without any mechanical changes or specifying how large the pantheon is according to Xanathar's Guide, then its you thats making it harder for yourself, me on the other hand? don't see any need to reinvent the wheel.

No need to get defensive, I'm not saying the idea is bad or that it won't work. Just pointing out that if OP wants to make Gods/Spirits a big part of the setting, it is something to consider. Not everyone plays with Gods as just background setting stuff, I'm sure that plenty of people have Gods take a very active role in their campaigns. Animism will affect that.

[KorvinStarmast]

In a lot of pantheons for D&D, they seem to often be involving the actual gods, but I personally am fond of Animism, where everything (From objects to an uttered phrase to a philosophical concept) has a spirit, and there are endless numbers of these spirits. My personal interpretation is like the elementals from MtG's Lorwyn, where they could be elementals or ideas- Such as spirits of discovery, darkness, and exploration appearing when a massive dark cave system is discovered, while on a battlefield, spirits of war, honor, bloodshed, and death lurk nearby.

They cannot be physically interacted with, and they cannot control the physical world, but some let themselves be seen, and spells take advantage of them- Divine spells calling for their aid, while Arcane forces them into service, which also allows a sort of Arcane vs Divine moral issue around the people.

Thoughts? DMG: forces and philosophies. Fits fine. Read from pages 10-13.

While I am not sure that Divine versus Arcane as a moral issue is worth pursuing (discuss with the folks at your table) that's kind of what Dark Sun did with Defilier / Preserver distinction.

[Chaosmancer]

I mean if you want to make more problems for yourself because of your own assumptions, go ahead. no one is saying you need to make it more than setting dressing. the books certainly aren't. I mean if a cleric can serve an entire pantheon without any mechanical changes or specifying how large the pantheon is according to Xanathar's Guide, then its you thats making it harder for yourself, me on the other hand? don't see any need to reinvent the wheel.

That is a legitimate way to look at it, but if you aren't changing anything then what is the point of changing it?

If switching to Animism and making Arcane vs Divine a moral choice doesn't change anything about how the world works, why bother changing it at all?

[Lord Raziere]

That is a legitimate way to look at it, but if you aren't changing anything then what is the point of changing it?

If switching to Animism and making Arcane vs Divine a moral choice doesn't change anything about how the world works, why bother changing it at all?

I don't care about the arcane vs divine thing, I'm not including that in what I'm talking about.

I am changing it. for some people, the fluff is enough and all that matters, and mechanics are just whatever I can fit into the fluff I want to play. if it models it without changing, I don't care, and I can figure out a way to do it without changing it, so.....why would I?

[Chaosmancer]

I don't care about the arcane vs divine thing, I'm not including that in what I'm talking about.

I am changing it. for some people, the fluff is enough and all that matters, and mechanics are just whatever I can fit into the fluff I want to play. if it models it without changing, I don't care, and I can figure out a way to do it without changing it, so.....why would I?

It isn't enough for some people.

I know players who play their clerics without once thinking of them as channeling the power of a deity. If I didn't change some of the mechanics, they wouldn't even remember I changed the fluff.

I suppose you can say it doesn't matter to those players either way, but combine that with my own issues in the fluff and the mechanics not working, and you might be able to see why I would want more than just a different paint job.

[Joe the Rat]

Passing Thoughts: Dichotomies

- instead of a moral dimension, it's a philosophical one. The spirit of a blade of grass is of limited power, and awareness, and intelligence (if that is even applicable). Making spirits act may be less like slavery than evoking a natural response. This turns casting into an approach. Divine Magic is attuning to and understanding what will draw the spirit's actions. Entreaty. Arcane Magic is forcing a response by understanding the sympathetic nature of things and a bit of Behavioral theory. Flow with the spirit's or control the spirits. Harmony vs Discipline.

- Clerics vs Druids could work in different ways. Druids are very close to animism at the start - almost animist generalist. Clerics then are some manner of specialization. They could be Specialist by Domain - strong with certain spirit types.
Another angle, possibly getting too far back to traditional divinities, is that each ties to a specific Greater Spirit - the spirit of a mountain, or a lake or river, or an entire damn forest collective. The holy symbol is a physical piece or symbolic token of that location, allowing you to call its power from far away.
Given the less physical and more concept/behavior focus of Domains, Clerics call the spirits of civilization rather than nature. This isn't perfect - light, tempest, and nature are a bit more primal. But then you get civilization vs nature, or old spirits vs new.

[furby076]

maybe make it a triangle of godly divine -> Arcane -> Nature magic (ranger/druid) -> cleric. So the 3 types dislike each other and maybe have bonuses or weakness (godly strong vs arcane, weak vs nature; arcane strong vs nature, weak vs godly divine, etc)