proofread my artificer for anything illegal

[newguydude1]

build is failure.

new build is here
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24383869&postcount=77

[skunk3]

Well tbh I can't be bothered to fact check it all but it does beg the question of why you would even want to do this? Is it a purely theoretical exercise or are you just trying to piss some DM off?

[ZamielVanWeber]

the scroll i make is lesser planar binding from the nar demonbinder spell list whose minimum caster level is 2 and spell level 4.
4 x 2 x 25 = 200gp so i can make it with minor creation in 8 hours.
xp cost is 8xp.

This is the kind of thing that is impossible for a RAW determination to be made. All spells have minimum caster levels, but the hyper-majority are unknown, so you will need to talk with your DM about what it might be, but calling it "2" seems torturous at best given how much work needs to be done to get into nar demonbinder at 2.


i have the mirror mephit create a simulacrum of a 8hd mirror mephit so when its hd is cut in half its 4 so i don't have to change any stats.
This is whole 'nother can of worms, if advanced monsters exist without prior DM approval.


at level 3 i stack two extend powers on psionic minor creation to increase its duration to 3 x 2 x 2 = 12 hours
It is dubious you can do this. The rules are silent utterly, but Sage says no so... ask your DM?

There is a bunch about this that feels like it falls firmly into "DM's rules" but nothing I can see from a quick look if illegal, so it is in a grey space currently.

[Calthropstu]

Officer Calthropstu here. As per section 8 paragraph 3 subsection d of the international intelligent species act, your confession regarding the illegal possession of kraken ink has been noted. As a kraken is an intelligent species, it is illegal to sell or purchase their body parts or byproducts. You are hereby ordered to appear before the court no less than 4 days from now and to pay a fine of no less than 24 gold pieces.

[Caelestion]

You can't use minor creation to make magic items or material components. The better question is why you're trying to get books thrown at you without the use of far hand.

[newguydude1]

Well tbh I can't be bothered to fact check it all but it does beg the question of why you would even want to do this? Is it a purely theoretical exercise or are you just trying to piss some DM off?

because i like simulacrum


This is the kind of thing that is impossible for a RAW determination to be made. All spells have minimum caster levels, but the hyper-majority are unknown, so you will need to talk with your DM about what it might be, but calling it "2" seems torturous at best given how much work needs to be done to get into nar demonbinder at 2.

its easy. go wizard 7 and sorcerer 1. attach nar demonbinder to sorcerer. cl2. no work. so easy.


This is whole 'nother can of worms, if advanced monsters exist without prior DM approval.

of course they exist. its in the mm entry. too many monsters even have class levels. ranger troll. lots of monster text says if you want to call an advanced creature you need to use higher level spells. so its dm house rule if they say only base exists.


It is dubious you can do this. The rules are silent utterly, but Sage says no so... ask your DM?

show me quote please. rules say you only need to expend psionic focus to apply metapsionic. metapsionic dont have same restriction as metamagic.


There is a bunch about this that feels like it falls firmly into "DM's rules" but nothing I can see from a quick look if illegal, so it is in a grey space currently.

everything is in rules and is clear. i didnt make anything up.


You can't use minor creation to make magic items or material components. The better question is why you're trying to get books thrown at you without the use of far hand.

*scrubbed* scroll crafting components are mundane.

[Caelestion]

You still can't create a magical scroll with the minor creation power.

[newguydude1]

You still can't create a magical scroll with the minor creation power.

*scrubbed* i'm making the components with minor creation so i can spend 8 hours creating the scroll.

[Falontani]

read it again. i'm making the components with minor creation so i can spend 8 hours creating the scroll.

Correct, how ever it can't be used to create components. It doesn't specify spell components so one could argue that crafting components also fall into this category.

[newguydude1]

Correct, how ever it can't be used to create components. It doesn't specify spell components so one could argue that crafting components also fall into this category.

minor creation can't be used to create material components. spell focus is not material components. holy symbol is not material components. crafting supplies are not material components. crafting supplies are not annihilated during spellcasting and neither are the focus or symbol. the only reason the crafting materials become a magic item in the first place is because i imbue magic into these mundane items with my spells.

i dont see your logic at all. if we follow your logic eschew materials allows us to ignore spell focus and holy symbol. and ignore material components lets us create epic magic items for free.

[Caelestion]

of course they exist. its in the mm entry. too many monsters even have class levels. ranger troll. lots of monster text says if you want to call an advanced creature you need to use higher level spells. so its dm house rule if they say only base exists.

"DM house rules" doesn't excuse every grey space in the rules. You can't summon a monster with a unusual number of HD without your DM's consent, no matter what your opinion of their rules.


show me quote please. rules say you only need to expend psionic focus to apply metapsionic. metapsionic dont have same restriction as metamagic.

Even if we take that as read (which we would be foolish to do so), how exactly are you using your psionic focus twice in one round to be able to apply it twice?


at level 2 i use a medium sized statue as a two handed weapon. i carry it around in one hand, i cast personal weapon augmentation and hold the charge on the other hand. when combat starts i ready my weapon as a free action which discharges personal weapon augmentation onto my statue, bestowing it the flying property which turns it into a medium animated object. both my medium animated object and geodite fight stuff for me.

All of the above pales into insignificance beside pretending to use a 4-8 ft tall statue as a two-handed weapon so that you can attempt to cheese weapon properties onto it.

[newguydude1]

"DM house rules" doesn't excuse every grey space in the rules. You can't summon a monster with a unusual number of HD without your DM's consent, no matter what your opinion of their rules.

*scrubbed*

you cant summon higher hd creatures because the spell doesn't say it lets you do that. until you get levels in cosmic descryer. then you can summon higher hd creatures. how can cosmic descryer summon +4hd or +8hd monsters if they dont exist? according to you that prc doesn't do anything without dm house rules letting it do what it says it can do. that is wrong. it is the opposite. cosmic descryer can summon higher hd monsters until a dm house rules saying only base hd monsters exist and break a ton of stuff that assumes higher hd monsters exist by default.

no grey area. a lot of stuff in game uses advanced creatures.


Even if we take that as read (which we would be foolish to do so), how exactly are you using your psionic focus twice in one round to be able to apply it twice?
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm
*scrubbed*
"Expending your psionic focus does not require an action"
its right at the top
or this

3 psicrystal containment




All of the above pales into insignificance beside pretending to use a 4-8 ft tall statue as a two-handed weapon so that you can attempt to cheese weapon properties onto it.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm
*scrubbed* two handed weapons are same size as wielder.
"a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder."

*scrubbed* nothing i want to do is grey area. *scrubbed* thank you.


All spells have minimum caster levels, but the hyper-majority are unknown

i remembered divine crusader. lesser planar binding minimum cl is 5. so at level 3 i can make it in 8 hours at level 3. 5 x 5 x 25 = 625gp, 25xp. no funny stuff. just straight up normal.

[Caelestion]

*scrubbed* All you needed to do was point out the psycrystal feat.

Why bring up the Cosmic Descryer PrC as if it means anything? You're not in that PrC, so it's rather irrelevant.

My point about the statue is that it's clearly not a weapon. How are you adding weapon properties to non-weapons? Moreover, is the "flying" property only a +1 ability?

[newguydude1]

*scrub the post, scrub the quote* All you needed to do was point out the psycrystal feat.

it confused me why anyone would say how i use 2 psionic focuses when my build clearly says psicrystal containment. so i thought you meant you need to use an action. *scrubbed* so i included both just in case.


Why bring up the Cosmic Descryer PrC as if it means anything? You're not in that PrC, so it's rather irrelevant.

you say players using advanced hd creatures is grey area and you cant summon higher hd creatures. i was showing you are wrong. cosmic descryer prc is one of many things players have that use advanced hd creatures. many. are you gonna say higher hd creatures magically appear in the world when a player takes a level in that prc?


My point about the statue is that it's clearly not a weapon. How are you adding weapon properties to non-weapons? Moreover, is the "flying" property only a +1 ability?

improvised weapon is a weapon. its in the name.
flying is a +1 ability. magic of faerun.

[Oberron]

The multiplication is wrong it would only be 3 x 3 not 3 x 2 x 2. One of the dnd rules that works different than real life math.

From srd
Multiplying
Sometimes a rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3).

[Falontani]

minor creation can't be used to create material components. spell focus is not material components. holy symbol is not material components. crafting supplies are not material components. crafting supplies are not annihilated during spellcasting and neither are the focus or symbol. the only reason the crafting materials become a magic item in the first place is because i imbue magic into these mundane items with my spells.

i dont see your logic at all. if we follow your logic eschew materials allows us to ignore spell focus and holy symbol. and ignore material components lets us create epic magic items for free.

I never stated anything about spell focuses. And now that I have slept I point you to the spell Fabricate. Crafting materials are material components.

This is obviously a dysfunction in the rules as literally everything that could theoretically be constructed with minor creation could be considered a material component.

My original post that you've quoted was me trying to look at the definition of material component.

*scrubbed*

[Caelestion]

you say players using advanced hd creatures is grey area

Well, of course it's a grey area. You're constantly working with "an absence of rules means that it doesn't say I'm wrong", which would only fly with the softest of GMs. Why ask if anything you're doing is illegal if half your responses are to the effect of "it doesn't say I can't"?

[newguydude1]

The multiplication is wrong it would only be 3 x 3 not 3 x 2 x 2. One of the dnd rules that works different than real life math.

From srd
Multiplying
Sometimes a rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3).

time is a real world value not a d&d value though. not that it matters. 9 hours is plenty. i just need it to be longer than 8.


I never stated anything about spell focuses. And now that I have slept I point you to the spell Fabricate. Crafting materials are material components.

This is obviously a dysfunction in the rules as literally everything that could theoretically be constructed with minor creation could be considered a material component.

My original post that you've quoted was me trying to look at the definition of material component.

*scrub the post, scrub the quote*

sorry if i was rude to you. i didnt mean it. im bad at talking on internet. if i am rude its not intentional. please accept apology. *scrub*
sorry if sound rude but you are incorrect on fabricate and minor creation.

minor creation can create material components but using it as material components makes the spell fail. crafting supplies are not material components, and cant make a spell fail because its not used in casting of a spell. it stores a spell but not used in the spell.

fabricate's material component is the original material not crafting supplies. you dont cast fabricate on crafting supplies. you cast it on original material.

[newguydude1]

Well, of course it's a grey area. You're constantly working with "an absence of rules means that it doesn't say I'm wrong", which would only fly with the softest of GMs. Why ask if anything you're doing is illegal if half your responses are to the effect of "it doesn't say I can't"?

it's not absence of rules. rules are there. tons of rules use advanced creatures. and the stat block directly says base creature is the most commonly encountered creature. meaning higher hd creatures are uncommonly encountered.

i have no idea what basis you are making these claims. please somehow nullify every piece of text regarding advanced creatures first before claiming otherwise. start with cosmic descryer. with your interpretation, does the prc function?

[Caelestion]

And again, you're focussing on a PrC with actually defined rules. Stop doing that. However, since you need to state the type of creature you want, how do you specify that you want a specific advanced mephit without going out and learning its name?

Besides, I don't need to destroy your artificer. You wouldn't be playing it in anything I ran anyway, so that too is irrelevant. I'm doing exactly what you asked people to do (and increasingly regretting the waste of time).

This "medium-sized statue" that you're supposedly using as an improved two-handed weapon, yet being carried in one hand with Str 9 - what's it made out of that you can do that? Balsa wood? Such a "weapon" retains the hit points and hardness of such an item and doesn't mysteriously become a Medium Animated Object, which is no doubt what you're attempting to pull here.

[Doctor Awkward]

I need more time to go over all of this but I wanted to address this bit while I have a spare moment:


it takes 8 hours to craft a scroll that costs 1000gp or less
crafting materials for scrolls are mundane. official examples are high quality paper, linen paper, parchment, vellum, a quill, high quality ink, kraken ink, and half petrified calf vellum.

Minor creation (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/minorCreation.htm) can only create vegetable matter.

Paper is made from wood pulp, which comes from trees, which are not vegetables. Linen paper is derived from the fibers of flax plants, which have more in common with grains than they do with vegetables. Parchment paper is treated with chemicals that are not derived from vegetables. Vellum is a fibrous membrane that comes from animals which are also decidedly not vegetables.

However, papyrus is made exclusively from fruits and vegetables. This is probably a candidate for spells, but it is also not on the example list provided in the book.

The dye for inks is commonly derived from fruits, such as blackberries, and in modern times the highest quality fountain pen inks are made with chemical processes in labs. Alchemical inks probably fill this void in D&D, and this is a judgement call on the DM's part. If there exists a vegetable that can produce a dye usable for ink I have not heard of it.

A writing quill is made from the molted flight feather of a large bird. This cannot be duplicated with minor creation.

[Calthropstu]

The argument that the statue is not a weapon holds water.


Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat.
At no point does it make such items weapons or call them out as such. Improvised weapon means "using non weapon objects in combat" as per the quote.
Since they are called out as nonweapon objects, they cannot hold weapon enhancement enchantments because they are then "designed for combat" as an obviously intended weapon.
Either it is not designed for combat and can be used as an improvised weapon, or it is designed for combat, can recieve enhancements but can no longer qualify as an improvised weapon.

[newguydude1]

(and increasingly regretting the waste of time).

{Scrubbed}


I need more time to go over all of this but I wanted to address this bit while I have a spare moment:



Minor creation (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/minorCreation.htm) can only create vegetable matter.

Paper is made from wood pulp, which comes from trees, which are not vegetables. Linen paper is derived from the fibers of flax plants, which have more in common with grains than they do with vegetables. Parchment paper is treated with chemicals that are not derived from vegetables. Vellum is a fibrous membrane that comes from animals which are also decidedly not vegetables.

However, papyrus is made exclusively from fruits and vegetables. This is probably a candidate for spells, but it is also not on the example list provided in the book.

The dye for inks is commonly derived from fruits, such as blackberries, and in modern times the highest quality fountain pen inks are made with chemical processes in labs. Alchemical inks probably fill this void in D&D, and this is a judgement call on the DM's part. If there exists a vegetable that can produce a dye usable for ink I have not heard of it.

A writing quill is made from the molted flight feather of a large bird. This cannot be duplicated with minor creation.

"vegetable matter - matter produced by plants or growing in the manner of a plant"
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/303852306102255741/

tree is a plant
wooden quills are made from trees.


The argument that the statue is not a weapon holds water.


At no point does it make such items weapons or call them out as such. Improvised weapon means "using non weapon objects in combat" as per the quote.
Since they are called out as nonweapon objects, they cannot hold weapon enhancement enchantments because they are then "designed for combat" as an obviously intended weapon.
Either it is not designed for combat and can be used as an improvised weapon, or it is designed for combat, can recieve enhancements but can no longer qualify as an improvised weapon.

they're called improvised weapons. meaning they are a category of weapons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_weapon
Sports equipment such as baseball bats,[2] golf clubs,[3] cricket bats,[4] hockey sticks [5] and dumbbells[6]
Natural materials, such as rocks[17]
Garden tools, such as axes,[18] sickles,[19] machetes,[20] pitchforks[21] and pickaxes[22]
Kitchen utensils, such as kitchen knives,[23] meat mallets[24] and ice picks[25]
Livestock herding equipment, such as lassos[26] and whips[27]

its nonsense to say you can't enchant a baseball bat or a chair leg because it's not a club. the only difference between a pitchfork and a quarterstaff is a metal head. if you smack stuff with it its a weapon. and the enchantment only works when you strike it like a weapon.

there is simple weapon, martial weapon, exotic weapon, and improvised weapon.

[newguydude1]

And again, you're focussing on a PrC with actually defined rules. Stop doing that.

I don't think you know that summon monster grabs a real existing creature. So for the cosmic descryer to work advanced creature need to exist in the world. if you did know that then i dont understand what your point is.


However, since you need to state the type of creature you want, how do you specify that you want a specific advanced mephit without going out and learning its name?

the mirror mephit knows.

and in worst case scenario, hd does not affect simulacrum. at all. if a dm wants me to make a simulacrum of a base creature then i will. half hd or not mirror mephits simulacrum is unaffected by hd. its clearly and not grey area stated that SLA is independent of HD unless otherwise stated.


This "medium-sized statue" that you're supposedly using as an improved two-handed weapon, yet being carried in one hand with Str 9 - what's it made out of that you can do that? Balsa wood? Such a "weapon" retains the hit points and hardness of such an item and doesn't mysteriously become a Medium Animated Object, which is no doubt what you're attempting to pull here.

this is just flavor. if a dm is gonna be this hard ball i'll just make a thick wooden quarterstaff and animate that. but if you want to know my strategy i calculate my maximum carry load, make my wooden or stone statue that weight, calculate the hp of that, and just carry/drag it around with one hand using my geodite to carry it up or down cliffs and such.

[Doctor Awkward]

"vegetable matter - matter produced by plants or growing in the manner of a plant"
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/303852306102255741/

tree is a plant
wooden quills are made from trees.

vegetable- noun-
a plant or part of a plant used as food, typically as accompaniment to meat or fish, such as a cabbage, potato, carrot, or bean.
"Vegetables are parts of plants that are consumed by humans or other animals as food. The original meaning is still commonly used and is applied to plants collectively to refer to all edible plant matter,"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetable

A requirement of the classification of vegetable is that it is edible. Trees are not edible. Trees are not vegetables.

Also, that picture is not a quill pen. That is a dip pen with a wooden letter opener carved into the shape of a feather. Dip pens did not come into common use until the early 1800's.



they're called improvised weapons. meaning they are a category of weapons


If improvised weapons are a category of weapons, why can't you become proficient in them?

[ZamielVanWeber]

I don't think you know that summon monster grabs a real existing creature. So for the cosmic descryer to work advanced creature need to exist in the world. if you did know that then i dont understand what your point is.


All PrCs are variants that require DM approval, per DMG p 176. Anything you do that involves PrCs (which is growing) in inarguably under DM purview and renders your build illegal. Excluding that issue there is no evidence the Cosmic Descryer creates a general rule; if anything it only creates a specific exception and is thus useless for you.


if a dm wants me to make a simulacrum of a base creature then i will. half hd or not mirror mephits simulacrum is unaffected by hd. its clearly and not grey area stated that SLA is independent of HD unless otherwise stated.
You got some source for that?


wooden quills are made from trees
I can find no evidence that this is possible and if it were that would be complex, given how wood and quills works, and you require the appropriate skill check.


show me quote please. rules say you only need to expend psionic focus to apply metapsionic. metapsionic dont have same restriction as metamagic.
Show me the quote where you bypass the stacking rules. Also if they do stack it is 9 hours, not 12.


its easy. go wizard 7 and sorcerer 1. attach nar demonbinder to sorcerer. cl2. no work. so easy.
Faire. Now you cannot cast Nar Demonbinder spells because your caster level of 2 is too low. No one knows what the number is, only that it exists, which requires DM adjudication. RAI it clearly does not work.


the only difference between a pitchfork and a quarterstaff is a metal head. if you smack stuff with it its a weapon. and the enchantment only works when you strike it like a weapon.
And the size, and the shape. and the balance, and the material, and the treatment of the materials. The only real similarity of that they have a pole like object inside of them that is probably made of wood.

Caelestion is correct on a critical point: you aren't looking to shore up your build; you aren't asking for feedback; you have started to insult the people who give you feedback. What did you actually come here for, then?

[newguydude1]

vegetable- noun-
a plant or part of a plant used as food, typically as accompaniment to meat or fish, such as a cabbage, potato, carrot, or bean.
"Vegetables are parts of plants that are consumed by humans or other animals as food. The original meaning is still commonly used and is applied to plants collectively to refer to all edible plant matter,"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetable

A requirement of the classification of vegetable is that it is edible. Trees are not edible. Trees are not vegetables.

Also, that picture is not a quill pen. That is a dip pen with a wooden letter opener carved into the shape of a feather. Dip pens did not come into common use until the early 1800's.



If improvised weapons are a category of weapons, why can't you become proficient in them?

we're not talking about vegetables. we're talking about vegetable matter.
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/vegetable%20matter
https://www.definitions.net/definition/vegetable+matter
https://findwords.info/term/vegetable%20matter
http://definition.org/define/vegetable%20matter/
http://www.finedictionary.com/vegetable%20matter.html
https://englishthesaurus.net/synonym/vegetable%20matter

vegetable matter is an actual word. dont cut the word in half.

it doesn't matter whether it's a quill or a dip pen. a pen is a pen. the rules say i just need a high quality fresh unused "writing implement". A quill is an official example of a writing implement.

and i found something for improvised weapons
drunken master prc
"Improvised Weapons (Ex): While bottles and tankards are a drunken master's preferred improvised weapons, he can use furniture, farm implements, or nearly anything else at hand to attack his foes. A drunken master's improvised weapon deals as much damage as his unarmed strike plus an extra 1d4 points. Most improvised weapons deal bludgeoning damage, although some (a broken glass bottle, for example) would deal piercing or slashing damage. When a drunken master rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll while using an improvised weapon, that weapon breaks apart and becomes useless."

"Improved Improvised Weapons (Ex): A drunken master of 4th level or higher can use long improvised weapons (such as ladders) as reach weapons according to their length, and improvised weapons with many protrusions (such as chairs) provide a +2 bonus on opponents' disarm attempts. Finally, large objects with broad, flat surfaces (such as tables) can be upended to become improvised tower shields."

"Greater Improvised Weapons (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a drunken master wielding an improvised weapon deals an extra 1d8 points of damage instead of 1d4. "

"Superior Improvised Weapons (Ex): At 9th level and higher, a drunken master wielding an improvised weapon deals an extra 1d12 points of damage instead of 1d8."

a weapon is a weapon. simple as that. you cant be seriously saying a drunken master cant enchant his beer bottle with flaming and whack someone with it.

[newguydude1]

{Scrubbed}

[Falontani]

I do not believe the others in the thread were attempting to kill your build, nor waste your time. There are things that each of them pointed out that while not necessarily completely against the rules of the game, are something that a fair DM may bring up themselves. Arguments against the legitimacy of your build without directly breaking the rules.

For example the Improvised Weapon rules: An improvised weapon is not called out as a weapon anywhere within the rules, except in the case of a few select prestige classes that have class abilities that let the character use them as such. Such as the Drunken Master's abilities.

Another example would be Advanced creatures. Any creature within any of the monster manuals are entirely up to the DM whether they exist or not. When we step past that and look at official monsters that are statted there is not an advanced version of the Mirror Mephit that is statted. This means that even if the DM allows mirror mephits to exist within the game, the DM may still exclude advanced versions, stating that none exist. Now again going past this, there are many "official statblocks" in the game, particularly one after nearly every prestige class. These are advanced versions of creatures, and I very much doubt that every world possesses the Human Wizard 10/Diabolist 10 Dread Emperor. This may also mean that not every world possesses a Hound Archon Hero (level 11 paladin hound archon).

The above two examples you both countered with a specific example, being a prestige class and an epic prestige class, which both have rules that override the general rule. This ends up being a "Specific trumps General" case, which is quite common. This clause is specifically for instances when a specific thing breaks the normal rule.
I am not stating that these rules exist at this point, nor arguing one way or another, simply increasing everyone's knowledge towards this specific interaction.

Both of these examples are important to bring up, as going with what you have laid out, everything works perfectly until you attempt to call the Advanced Mirror Mephit. At which point your DM could simply state that Mirror Mephits or advanced mirror mephits do not exist.

I personally believe that every creature in the various MMs exist within a game, unless the DM specifically calls out that one does not.

That said I also believe that an improvised weapon (such as a statue) does not count as a weapon, and that if it were indeed enchanted to be a weapon, then it would count as a specific weapon rather than an improvised one. As such I do not believe that a statue should constitute a valid target for the Personal Weapon Augmentation infusion. This is an opinion, and I do not believe that the rules strongly lean one way or another on the case of Improvised Weapons counting as weapons or not. This is how I personally would rule it if I were the DM for this particular game.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I personally believe that every creature in the various MMs exist within a game, unless the DM specifically calls out that one does not.
Purely RAW, the answer is a resounding shrug. The arguments for/against also talk past each other a bit oddly. There is no good RAW answer, in my experience, which is why I called it "a whole 'nother cans of worms."


That said I also believe that an improvised weapon (such as a statue) does not count as a weapon, and that if it were indeed enchanted to be a weapon, then it would count as a specific weapon rather than an improvised one. As such I do not believe that a statue should constitute a valid target for the Personal Weapon Augmentation infusion. This is an opinion, and I do not believe that the rules strongly lean one way or another on the case of Improvised Weapons counting as weapons or not. This is how I personally would rule it if I were the DM for this particular game.

Flying explicitly normalizes the weapon, at least the one I could find. A flying, ultra-heavy, carved with limbs, quarter staff would just be a regular quarter staff under flying.

...and is treated as an animated object with hardness and hit points equal to a typical weapon of its kind...
This would also hint at improvised weapons not working, not is hardly damning evidence. Either way, it sets it to a "typical weapon" and, outside of Dark Souls, there is nothing "typical" about wielding a statue.

[newguydude1]

Both of these examples are important to bring up, as going with what you have laid out, everything works perfectly until you attempt to call the Advanced Mirror Mephit. At which point your DM could simply state that Mirror Mephits or advanced mirror mephits do not exist.

it doesnt really matter. hd has no impact on slas. i only do the advanced thing so I create simulacrum of 6hd creatures, not 16hd creatures cut in half like iron golem cut in half instead of a normal 6hd monster. no headaches of figuring out the cr of the new creature and whether that cr is accurate and hodge podge like that.

someone asked for a quote, here it is
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm
"For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice."



That said I also believe that an improvised weapon (such as a statue) does not count as a weapon, and that if it were indeed enchanted to be a weapon, then it would count as a specific weapon rather than an improvised one. As such I do not believe that a statue should constitute a valid target for the Personal Weapon Augmentation infusion. This is an opinion, and I do not believe that the rules strongly lean one way or another on the case of Improvised Weapons counting as weapons or not. This is how I personally would rule it if I were the DM for this particular game.

I could just say a club thats been masterfully sculpted in the shape of a humanoid that is inapproprietly sized so its a two handed weapon for me and get what i want that way. but this sounds stupid to me.

it sounds stupid to me because how does magic know whether a stick is a quarterstaff, a club, or some kind of exotic weapon? if magic turns a stick into a flaming stick that burns anyone it strikes, then it should turn a different stick into a flaming stick that burns anyone it strikes. you could say a chair is actually four clubs on a tower shield folded in half for a halfling. since its an amalgum of weapons its still a weapon.

but if dm says there is only a finite list of weapons in the world, no new weapon can be created, and weapons taht dont fit the d&d categories arent weapons, then ill just say masterfully sculpted club or stone club and bring out the arms and equipment guide for stone weapons. or better yet a transformer statue that transforms into a club.

but to me, to say improvised weapons like a baseball bat cant be improved with flaming or shocking because its not a club, is stupid.

and imo, the reason why we are nitpicking improvised weapons is to rule lawyer my thing down because who would ever say you cant enchant a baseball with flaming or shocking? no, because i say flying instead of flaming everyone is raucous.

you can enchant shield spikes. think about that. so can you enchant caltrops? no because it's not a "weapon"? despite being able to fluff it as 4 daggers for tiny creatures meshed together? ......


I personally believe that every creature in the various MMs exist within a game, unless the DM specifically calls out that one does not.

this is correct because lots of monsters say "to call an advanced creatures players need to use a higher level spell", the monster stat block directly says the base creature is the most commonly encountered creature, meaning the uncommonly encountered creatures exist and are higher hd. the stat block directly has an advancement entry. there are advanced creatures like ranger troll or some kind of outsider i forgot given official stat blocks despite literally just being base creature with hd or class levels added on. and prcs that use advanced creatures without saying anything like needing dm approval for the creatures to exist beforehand.

[Doctor Awkward]

Alrighty, I have some time to kill. Let's take it from the top;


level: 3
class: psion1, artificer2
race: human
ability scores
9-2 STR
8 DEX
12 CON
16 INT
8 WIS
16 CHA


Sure. This gives you 3 hit dice, a power point reserve of 3, three 1st-level powers known, a Craft Reserve of 40 xp, three 1st-level infusions per day, and the Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion item creation feats.


flaws: pathetic strength, noncombatant
feats:
1 practiced manifester
1 extend power
1 metapower:extend power & psionic minor creation
1 psicrystal affinity
1 elemental steward
3 psicrystal containment


powers
Psionic Minor Creation
Endure Elements
Matter Agitation

Minor Creation is a Shaper 1 power, so that requires you to pick Metacreativity as your psionic discipline.
I'm going to assume you meant "Elemental Envoy", not "Elemental Steward."

Otherwise, okay.


at level 1 i have a geodite fighting for me

at level 2 i use a medium sized statue as a two handed weapon. i carry it around in one hand, i cast personal weapon augmentation and hold the charge on the other hand. when combat starts i ready my weapon as a free action which discharges personal weapon augmentation onto my statue, bestowing it the flying property which turns it into a medium animated object. both my medium animated object and geodite fight stuff for me.

Geodite is a geodite.
A medium-sized statue-- assuming an average height of 60 inches and a marble composition-- would weigh in excess of 550 pounds. According to the carrying capacity table (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm#liftingandDragging), this exceeds a light load of 29 Strength, meaning you would require at least a 30, possibly higher in order to "wield" such an object in one hand. A stone statue-- such as granite-- of the same size would weigh one and a half tons.

Furthermore, improvised weapons cannot be enchanted with magic weapon properties. The Dungeon Master's guide states that magic weapons (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm) come in two categories: melee and ranged. You'll note that "improvised" is not one of those two categories.


at level 3 i stack two extend powers on psionic minor creation to increase its duration to 3 x 2 x 2 = 12 hours
Welp...
Despite the insanity, it appears there is nothing explicitly prohibiting the use of same metapsionic feat more than once on the same power, like there is for metamagic feats and spells.
Even so, the Epic Pisonic Focus feat makes it clear that you can only use one metapsionic augment per manifestation of a power, and even if that weren't the case becoming psionically focused is a full-round action that requires a DC 20 Concentration check.
And even if you wanted to argue that you and your psicrystal have two foci to expend, you still have the problem that Metapower only reduces the manifestation cost by 2 once. Not by 2 per use of the feat. So an Extended Extended Minor Creation would be 3 power points, which is your entire daily allotment, meaning you could only manifest it once per day.


it takes 8 hours to craft a scroll that costs 1000gp or less
crafting materials for scrolls are mundane. official examples are high quality paper, linen paper, parchment, vellum, a quill, high quality ink, kraken ink, and half petrified calf vellum.
minor creation can create any mundane item

so put all this together and my artificer, at level 3, can create scrolls that last 4 hours after completion without paying gp by manifesting minor creation 3 times, one for paper, one for ink, and one for pen by passing a dc20 craft check for each which is done simply by taking 10.

To reiterate from before, minor creation can only create vegetable matter. Neither ink nor a writing quill is wholly vegetable matter.
A dip pen contains a metal nib through which the ink flows when you press it to paper. You cannot create a usable ink-writing implement out of a plant.


the scroll i make is lesser planar binding from the nar demonbinder spell list whose minimum caster level is 2 and spell level 4.
4 x 2 x 25 = 200gp so i can make it with minor creation in 8 hours.
xp cost is 8xp.

i make a cage whose roof slides down the bars and squishes anyone inside.
the cage roof is held up by an animated object
the roof is double the maximum carry weight of a mirror mephit

A stock mirror mephit is a small creature that has 8 Strength. The encumbrance rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm#liftingandDragging) state that a character can lift up to twice their maximum load off the ground. So that means your "roof" has to weigh a minimum of 121 pounds. Lifting this much weight overhead requires a Strength of at least 12, or 14 if the creature is small. The geodite can do this.


the bars are close together so there is no line of effect.
i cast lesser planar binding into the cage through a 1ftx1ft hole at the top of the cage
when a mirror mephit pops into the cage my animated object drops the roof ontop of it, smooshing it.
the mirror mephit is now trapped. can't move because he's smooshed and doesn't have line of effect to anything.
i then spend however many days it takes to succeed that charisma check.

Okay, there are a lot of problems here.

For starters, you cannot simply cast a planar binding anywhere you want. You have to cast it within a special calling diagram set up for that purpose. Most often this is a magic circle spell focused inward to trap a creature inside it. Casting a planar binding without that circle just brings a loose creature to the Material Plane. You don't get to make a check to compel such a creature. It is free to act as it wishes.

Even if you get an appropriate calling diagram...
The mephit has a +4 to it's Will save, and your scroll has a save DC of 10 + 2 (2nd-level spell) + 3 (for your 16 casting stat). That means it's has a 45% chance of succeeding on it's save against being called. And even if you successfully call one, it also has Spell Resistance of 16, which is is allowed to pit against your circle's caster level of 2, which will auto-succeed in breaking out.

And finally, the longer you roll Charisma checks, the more likely you are to roll a 1, which allows the creature to break out of the circle and act however it wishes.

[newguydude1]

Sure. This gives you 3 hit dice, a power point reserve of 3, three 1st-level powers known, a Craft Reserve of 40 xp, three 1st-level infusions per day, and the Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion item creation feats.

you made a mistake.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm#multiclassPsionicCharacters
"Your key ability score grants you additional power points equal to your key ability modifier × your manifester level ×½."
manifester level not psion level. so at level 3 my power points is 2+4=6.


Geodite is a geodite.
A medium-sized statue-- assuming an average height of 60 inches and a marble composition-- would weigh in excess of 550 pounds. According to the carrying capacity table (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm#liftingandDragging), this exceeds a light load of 29 Strength, meaning you would require at least a 30, possibly higher in order to "wield" such an object in one hand. A stone statue-- such as granite-- of the same size would weigh one and a half tons.

Furthermore, improvised weapons cannot be enchanted with magic weapon properties. The Dungeon Master's guide states that magic weapons (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm) come in two categories: melee and ranged. You'll note that "improvised" is not one of those two categories.

neither are simple, exotic, or martial. an improvised melee weapon is still a melee weapon.
but lets just skip this argument. elaborate scultped club that looks like a humanoid statue. or a transformer action figure that transforms into a club.



Welp...
Despite the insanity, it appears there is nothing explicitly prohibiting the use of same metapsionic feat more than once on the same power, like there is for metamagic feats and spells.
Even so, the Epic Pisonic Focus feat makes it clear that you can only use one metapsionic augment per manifestation of a power, and even if that weren't the case becoming psionically focused is a full-round action that requires a DC 20 Concentration check.
And even if you wanted to argue that you and your psicrystal have two foci to expend, you still have the problem that Metapower only reduces the manifestation cost by 2 once. Not by 2 per use of the feat. So an Extended Extended Minor Creation would be 3 power points, which is your entire daily allotment, meaning you could only manifest it once per day.

epic psionic focus makes no clarification. it says you can stack two feats with one focus, and that the feats have to be stackable. if anything it affirms you can stack to extend powers on a power.
using psi crystal's focus is not an argument at all. its fact. its the entire purpose of the feats existence.

interesting interpretation of metapower. one would think applying extend a 2nd time still only costs 2-2 = 0. but your interpretation deserves further investigation. ill think about it.



To reiterate from before, minor creation can only create vegetable matter. Neither ink nor a writing quill is wholly vegetable matter.
A dip pen contains a metal nib through which the ink flows when you press it to paper. You cannot create a usable ink-writing implement out of a plant.

bronzewood is wood that is identical to metal except in hp. bronzewood dip pen. i dont think i need to go that far though. there should be a wooden writing implement somewhere in history.

ill have to get back to you on the ink. from my research ink is just water with pigments melted in. pigments are made from plants.


For starters, you cannot simply cast a planar binding anywhere you want. You have to cast it within a special calling diagram set up for that purpose. Most often this is a magic circle spell focused inward to trap a creature inside it. Casting a planar binding without that circle just brings a loose creature to the Material Plane. You don't get to make a check to compel such a creature. It is free to act as it wishes.

complete mage says magic circle is optional. it says you can reinforce the trap with a magic circle. so i can cast it into a mundane trap and bind him to me.


Even if you get an appropriate calling diagram...
The mephit has a +4 to it's Will save, and your scroll has a save DC of 10 + 2 (2nd-level spell) + 3 (for your 16 casting stat). That means it's has a 45% chance of succeeding on it's save against being called. And even if you successfully call one, it also has Spell Resistance of 16, which is is allowed to pit against your circle's caster level of 2, which will auto-succeed in breaking out.

And finally, the longer you roll Charisma checks, the more likely you are to roll a 1, which allows the creature to break out of the circle and act however it wishes.

you did math wrong. my casting stat doesnt matter. it has to be the minimum possible casting stat. so DC is 10 + 2 + 2 = 14. So if it rolls a 10 or higher it escapes, so it has a 55% chance of resisting being called.

it costs 8xp per attempt. i got 7 attempts with my craft reserve. i think the odds are in my favor but even if all 7 fail, doesnt matter. 8xp is nothing.

the whole point of the cage is so that i dont have to worry about rolling a 1.



so in conclusion
we are skipping the whole improvised weapon thing with the elaborate statue club, or a transformer action figure that transforms into a club.

you raise a very interesting point with metapower i have to revisit.

i need to look up inks and pigments and dyes again

complete mage says magic circle is optional. so the cage works.

edit: also thank you for taking the time.

[ZamielVanWeber]

you made a mistake.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm#multiclassPsionicCharacters
"Your key ability score grants you additional power points equal to your key ability modifier × your manifester level ×½."
manifester level not psion level. so at level 3 my power points is 2+4=6.
Artificer level are not manifester levels. Unless you get getting extra, such as from an item or a feat, it should be 1 x 3 x .5 or 1 (1+2=3).


The variables of a power’s effect often depend on its manifester level, which is equal to your psionic class level


bronzewood is wood that is identical to metal except in hp. bronzewood dip pen. i dont think i need to go that far though. there should be a wooden writing implement somewhere in history.
Bronzewood says it can be used for weapons and armor and is "as hard as metal." What makes a fountain pen work is capillary action, which wood won't supply you with well. If it bronzewood does it would take some very work handiwork to drill it is, end result being you will need to make a decently difficult craft check. The wooden writing implement was the stylus and was used to cut lines into wax.
Good news/bad news: Reed pen + papyrus is all vegetable matter, but both will require craft checks. A reed pen is DC 5 so trivial with that Int (if you can afford it get a master item of craft [making writing implements or something]). Papyrus is decently complex and made from a mixture of vegetable matters, so will require a much bigger craft check in the power or you can just purchase it. Other option is to make an ink brush, which will be tricky but if you opt to make a garbage tier one you can probably squeak away with DC 5/10 and those can write on paper. Problem is ink brushes use some animal matter so you will need to just purchase some horse hair and wash it.


ill have to get back to you on the ink. from my research ink is just water with pigments melted in. pigments are made from plants.
Natural pigments come from all over the place. The original royal purple pigment came from crushed snails shells, for example. Ink brush ink comes from a charcoal variant.

Your best bet appears to be to optimize two craft checks to reliably hit +10 on a roll of 1, one to make an average ink brush of corn husk fibers, rice glues and wood. And one to make an ink stick.


the whole point of the cage is so that i dont have to worry about rolling a 1.

If you roll a one the trap breaks and he can leave via Lesser Planar Binding. It is in the description of calling spells.



A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible.
Emphasis mine.

The lowest inarguable caster/spell level combo for LPB I can find is 5th with Divine Crusader 5 via the Rune Domain. With those numbers it is 12.5 x 5 x 5 x (1/25) is 12 exp a pop. That would give you three shots.

That would make this method risky, but doable, barring the trainwreck that is the advanced creature argument.

[Aracor]

The biggest problem I see is simple.

If we assume that the Minor Creation power can create all of the components for the scroll cost-free (dubious, but we'll roll with it), we are by definition agreeing that they are NOT spell components, because spells fail when using components created from Minor Creation.

Logically, this then means that they are actually being used to create the scroll. Since the manifesting time for Psionic Minor Creation is 1 minute each, and it takes 8 full hours to create the scroll, the duration of the first two Creations expire at the end of the scroll creation, and simply disappear just before the scroll is completed and can be used. Not even counting that the casting time of the scroll itself is 10 minutes. You need to get a longer duration to be able to use the scroll before it fizzles out of existence.


The second problem is that your cage doesn't count as a trap.
Per https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm

"To create the trap, you must use a magic circle spell, focused inward." This means that a cage (no matter how well crafted) doesn't count as the trap, and the spell fails and/or the Mirror Mephit appears and is not trapped, therefore can act however it wants to.

[newguydude1]

Artificer level are not manifester levels. Unless you get getting extra, such as from an item or a feat, it should be 1 x 3 x .5 or 1 (1+2=3).

1 practiced manifester

Your best bet appears to be to optimize two craft checks to reliably hit +10 on a roll of 1

by passing a dc20 craft check for each which is done simply by taking 10.
im gonna put points into all 3 skills. papermaking, ink making, and pen making. also mwk tool making so i can get +2 to skills. just need one that gives +2 to umd.

If you roll a one the trap breaks and he can leave via Lesser Planar Binding. It is in the description of calling spells.


Emphasis mine.
that entire section is description of the magic circle trap. the spell doesnt even say you can use any other trap than magic circle. if it werent for complete mage id have to use magic circle which breaks the whole thing because i cant create 2 scrolls in one day and my cl is gonna be terrible so the trap ends in 2 days.

The lowest inarguable caster/spell level combo for LPB I can find is 5th with Divine Crusader 5 via the Rune Domain. With those numbers it is 12.5 x 5 x 5 x (1/25) is 12 exp a pop. That would give you three shots.

That would make this method risky, but doable, barring the trainwreck that is the advanced creature argument.

you made a math mistake. its 1/25 of market price not crafting price so its 25 x 5 x 5 x 1/25 = 25xp a pop. so one shot with only craft reserve. and i have to wait an additional level since i need artificer level 3.


The biggest problem I see is simple.

If we assume that the Minor Creation power can create all of the components for the scroll cost-free (dubious, but we'll roll with it), we are by definition agreeing that they are NOT spell components, because spells fail when using components created from Minor Creation.

Logically, this then means that they are actually being used to create the scroll. Since the manifesting time for Psionic Minor Creation is 1 minute each, and it takes 8 full hours to create the scroll, the duration of the first two Creations expire at the end of the scroll creation, and simply disappear just before the scroll is completed and can be used. Not even counting that the casting time of the scroll itself is 10 minutes. You need to get a longer duration to be able to use the scroll before it fizzles out of existence.

at level 3 i stack two extend powers on psionic minor creation to increase its duration to 3 x 2 x 2 = 12 hours


The second problem is that your cage doesn't count as a trap.
Per https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm

"To create the trap, you must use a magic circle spell, focused inward." This means that a cage (no matter how well crafted) doesn't count as the trap, and the spell fails and/or the Mirror Mephit appears and is not trapped, therefore can act however it wants to.


4th—Dimensional Anchor: This spell is instrumental in preventing creatures that are summoned using the planar binding spells from escaping with teleportation or dimensional shifting abilities. Any summoner planning to use a planar binding spell would be wise to learn an appropriate magic circle spell to strengthen the trap as well.

[ZamielVanWeber]

you made a math mistake. its 1/25 of market price not crafting price so its 25 x 5 x 5 x 1/25 = 25xp a pop. so one shot with only craft reserve. and i have to wait an additional level since i need artificer level 3.

Right, that is a problem. 3rd gives 60, so I wonder if there is a way to make this work using Kalashtar and Hidden Talent (Minor Creation)?

At 3rd your gold is high enough to afford the fee for hiring the mephit via Planar Binding. The upside there is Apostle of Peace has that spell as a 4/4 which reduces the exp cost to 16 and the task should only cost 400 (IIRC mirror mephits have 4 HD).

And yes, I missed the Practiced Manifester, sorry.

Taking 10 while manifesting a power is dubious. Concentration never claims its list is exhaustive and, in the English, implies it's not. I recommend preparing for the worst and hoping for the best when it comes to make the brush, paper, and ink.

[Oberron]

time is a real world value not a d&d value though. not that it matters. 9 hours is plenty. i just need it to be longer than 8.



It does not say game value versus Real World value it says abstract value time is an abstract concept but as you said either way it is more time than what you are using it for

[newguydude1]

Right, that is a problem. 3rd gives 60, so I wonder if there is a way to make this work using Kalashtar and Hidden Talent (Minor Creation)?

dm said no to hidden talent because he doesnt like sidebar feats.


At 3rd your gold is high enough to afford the fee for hiring the mephit via Planar Binding. The upside there is Apostle of Peace has that spell as a 4/4 which reduces the exp cost to 16 and the task should only cost 400 (IIRC mirror mephits have 4 HD).

point of the whole thing is to not use any money. if i use money no point in going psion1.


Taking 10 while manifesting a power is dubious. Concentration never claims its list is exhaustive and, in the English, implies it's not. I recommend preparing for the worst and hoping for the best when it comes to make the brush, paper, and ink.

no its not. taking 10 is doable when even disarming traps as long as you're in a stress free environment like no monster attacking you. casting a spell or manifesting a power has nothing to do with taking 10 with craft checks.


It does not say game value versus Real World value it says abstract value time is an abstract concept but as you said either way it is more time than what you are using it for

"Multiplying

Sometimes a rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3).

When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead. A creature whose size doubles (thus multiplying its weight by 8) and then is turned to stone (which would multiply its weight by a factor of roughly 3) now weighs about 24 times normal, not 10 times normal. Similarly, a blinded creature attempting to negotiate difficult terrain would count each square as 4 squares (doubling the cost twice, for a total multiplier of ×4), rather than as 3 squares (adding 100% twice). "

[ZamielVanWeber]

no its not. taking 10 is doable when even disarming traps as long as you're in a stress free environment like no monster attacking you. casting a spell or manifesting a power has nothing to do with taking 10 with craft checks.
The list is of what prohibits taking 10 is not exhaustive and I have never seen a DM permit taking 10 on it. It is clear that you view your interpretation of the rules as THE CORRECT one, even if it involves your logic flipping (why is the take 10 list exhaustive but the real word multiplying one not? Answer: because you go with the convenient answer, not the consistent one). End result is you are rude and talk down to anyone who does anything but spoon feed you praises, with limited exceptions. This is the exact behavior that got you censured just hours ago. You don't even offer counter examples most of the time, just "you're wrong; I'm right."

[Calthropstu]

they're called improvised weapons. meaning they are a category of weapons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_weapon
Sports equipment such as baseball bats,[2] golf clubs,[3] cricket bats,[4] hockey sticks [5] and dumbbells[6]
Natural materials, such as rocks[17]
Garden tools, such as axes,[18] sickles,[19] machetes,[20] pitchforks[21] and pickaxes[22]
Kitchen utensils, such as kitchen knives,[23] meat mallets[24] and ice picks[25]
Livestock herding equipment, such as lassos[26] and whips[27]

its nonsense to say you can't enchant a baseball bat or a chair leg because it's not a club. the only difference between a pitchfork and a quarterstaff is a metal head. if you smack stuff with it its a weapon. and the enchantment only works when you strike it like a weapon.

there is simple weapon, martial weapon, exotic weapon, and improvised weapon.

Negative. The write up for improvised weapon SPECIFICALLY states that improvised weapons are not designed for combat. By enchanting them with weapon upgrades, you are designing them for a combat role, disqualifying them as improvised weapons. If you enchant said statue, it literally now exists outside any rule set for weapons because you have now repurposed it for combat, and there is no weapon category "statue".
A gm COULD just say "eh, let's just go with improvised" and that would be fine. But it requires GM fiat.

[newguydude1]

The list is of what prohibits taking 10 is not exhaustive and I have never seen a DM permit taking 10 on it. It is clear that you view your interpretation of the rules as THE CORRECT one, even if it involves your logic flipping (why is the take 10 list exhaustive but the real word multiplying one not? Answer: because you go with the convenient answer, not the consistent one). End result is you are rude and talk down to anyone who does anything but spoon feed you praises, with limited exceptions. This is the exact behavior that got you censured just hours ago. You don't even offer counter examples most of the time, just "you're wrong; I'm right."

you dont provide quotes.
{Scrubbed}

"Taking 10

When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure —you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help. "

and this
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?355562-quot-Can-I-Take-10-quot-Table-of-sourcebook-examples-mentions-of-taking-10

bluff - players taking 10 on a opposed bluff v.s. sense motive check
disable device - players taking 10 on disarming traps which can blow up and kill everyone
climb - high up in a cliff, where dropping will fall to your death, a player can take 10 to climb a rope
hide - you can take 10 while hiding from enemies

so I took the time to research official examples of when you can take 10 or not. i re-read the official entry. and noticed these
casting a spell does not threaten your character in anyway.
casting a spell does not distract you in anyway because the check comes after casting the spell.
casting a spell is routine.
other take 10s can be done even when failure can outright kill you.
when you make the check, you can decide to take 10 or not, and the check comes after the spell is fully cast.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm

"You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect. "



so in conclusion, after you fully finish casting the spell, if you are not threatened or distracted, you may take 10 on the craft check.

and whats your rebuttal? dm gets to add more scenarios where take 10 doesnt work? just like that? no quotes? nothing? just "i get to say it does"? where does it say that list isn't exhaustive?{Scrubbed} not threatened or distracted = take 10. casting a spell has absolutely nothing to do with being threatend or distracted.

and lets look at the RAI. taking 10 is for fearing failure. taking 10 is for routine. taking 10 is for noncombat applications. taking 10 is for choosing the average when a high roll doesnt do anything. how is casting a spell betray the intent of taking 10? betray the intent of allowing players to safely use the average roll when they dont want to risk failure because a high roll wont do anything?

{Scrubbed}

{Scrubbed}my dm stays as close to the rules as possible and he laughed when i told him about minor creation making scroll supplies. and then we spent an hour looking up the relevant rules to see if i was right. we dived together into the rules and found kraken ink and half petrified vellum. hes the type of dm who allows drown healing but asks players not to do that because it breaks immersion.

my interpretation is not always the correct one. that is why i made this thread. doctor awkward successfully pointed out a possible misinterpretation by me. {Scrubbed}

{Scrubbed}

it's not too late. Show me either RAI or RAW that shows taking 10 after casting a spell betrays the intent of taking 10. {Scrubbed} I'll even take a RAI argument instead of a RAW one.

[EisenKreutzer]

rofl. lol.
Lots of stuff

{Scrubbed}You came here asking people to check your build for errors, and thats all people have been doing. You might not agree with their reasoning, and thats fine, {Scrubbed}

Just food for thought.

[newguydude1]

{Scrub the post/quote} You came here asking people to check your build for errors, and thats all people have been doing. You might not agree with their reasoning, and thats fine,{Scrubbed}
Just food for thought.

i am sorry. i am angry right now.

i study the rules. i research online. i look through past forum topics. i google for hours. and after getting a mountain of information i see that the rules only work one way in this case. so i tell him he's wrong.
{Scrubbed}

It is clear that you view your interpretation of the rules as THE CORRECT one, even if it involves your logic flipping (why is the take 10 list exhaustive but the real word multiplying one not? Answer: because you go with the convenient answer, not the consistent one). End result is you are rude and talk down to anyone who does anything but spoon feed you praises, with limited exceptions. This is the exact behavior that got you censured just hours ago. You don't even offer counter examples most of the time, just "you're wrong; I'm right."

yeah. rules directly and explicitly says hes wrong. the RAI also directly and explicitly says hes wrong. and he tells me im the guy who needs to be spoonfed praises?

{Scrubbed}

{Scrubbed}
the rule on take 10
the general rule on spellcasting
all official examples of taking 10 put together nicely by a really nice guy on this forum
the RAI of take 10.

all unanimously say hes wrong?

[sorcererlover]

The list is of what prohibits taking 10 is not exhaustive and I have never seen a DM permit taking 10 on it. It is clear that you view your interpretation of the rules as THE CORRECT one, even if it involves your logic flipping (why is the take 10 list exhaustive but the real word multiplying one not? Answer: because you go with the convenient answer, not the consistent one). End result is you are rude and talk down to anyone who does anything but spoon feed you praises, with limited exceptions. This is the exact behavior that got you censured just hours ago. You don't even offer counter examples most of the time, just "you're wrong; I'm right."

Well...

When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance),

The multiplication list isn't exhaustive because its listing some of the possible stuff. Which means there are others.


When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10.
Here being threatened or distracted aren't examples. They are conditions that disqualify take 10.

is it REALLY logic flipping to say a list of examples isn't exhaustive, and a list of conditions is? :confused:

[EisenKreutzer]

i am sorry. i am angry right now.

i study the rules. i research online. i look through past forum topics. i google for hours. and after getting a mountain of information i see that the rules only work one way in this case. so i tell him he's wrong.
{Scrub the post/quote}

yeah. rules directly and explicitly says hes wrong. the RAI also directly and explicitly says hes wrong. and he tells me im the guy who needs to be spoonfed praises?

{Scrubbed}

{Scrubbed}
the rule on take 10
the general rule on spellcasting
all official examples of taking 10 put together nicely by a really nice guy on this forum
the RAI of take 10.

all unanimously say hes wrong?

Take a deep breath and try to remember that you are debating the rules of a game.

[ZamielVanWeber]

is it REALLY logic flipping to say a list of examples isn't exhaustive, and a list of conditions is? :confused:

I can definitely see your point, there, but in both cases it is a list of examples. The true list is "distractions or threats." While there is certainly no threat here, his argument hinges on spellcasting not being distracting. I mean, attacks of opportunity explicitly call spellcasting out as being distracting. So by him treating the list "such as combat" as exhaustive while treating the "such as weight or distance" as being descriptive is inconsistent. Now under normal circumstances such an error would readily be considered innocent. We all do such idiosyncrasies. But consider that right from the start they have been hostile to any form of criticism and their response is always "I am right."

Consider that I opened this thread with "here are some grey areas you wandered into" and his response was to deny it. He has a DM; he could easily have asked him and simply replied "DM thinks as thus..." but chose not to.

So, perhaps I am overly critical of his intentions, fair, but it seems to me in any case they were never good to begin with.

[skunk3]

You absolutely cannot use a statue as anything but an improvised weapon. Arguing to the contrary is silly.

[sorcererlover]

I can definitely see your point, there, but in both cases it is a list of examples. The true list is "distractions or threats." While there is certainly no threat here, his argument hinges on spellcasting not being distracting. I mean, attacks of opportunity explicitly call spellcasting out as being distracting. So by him treating the list "such as combat" as exhaustive while treating the "such as weight or distance" as being descriptive is inconsistent. Now under normal circumstances such an error would readily be considered innocent. We all do such idiosyncrasies. But consider that right from the start they have been hostile to any form of criticism and their response is always "I am right."

Consider that I opened this thread with "here are some grey areas you wandered into" and his response was to deny it. He has a DM; he could easily have asked him and simply replied "DM thinks as thus..." but chose not to.

So, perhaps I am overly critical of his intentions, fair, but it seems to me in any case they were never good to begin with.

I can see how you can't take 10 if you have to cast a spell while making a craft check simultaneously because casting a spell is definitely distracting, but as newguydude1 correctly pointed out: the check comes after the spell is finished casting. All decisions regarding the spell including what to create and whether you need to roll a check for that comes after the spell is finished casting. So the check happens after the distracting action is completely over. This is as open and shut as the rules get.

Not trying to take any sides here. {Scrubbed}

[Calthropstu]

You absolutely cannot use a statue as anything but an improvised weapon. Arguing to the contrary is silly.

I agree, which is why you can't enchant it as a weapon.

[jdizzlean]

now, if you were a fiend of possession, you could meld yourself into the statue, and then having given it "life" could attack "with it" all you wanted...

[Calthropstu]

now, if you were a fiend of possession, you could meld yourself into the statue, and then having given it "life" could attack "with it" all you wanted...

Animate object would do it as well

[jdizzlean]

The Mod Life Crisis Please find a way to discuss the topic at hand without attacking other users.

[newguydude1]

ok lets just sum this up. end this.


level: 3
class: psion1, artificer2
race: human
ability scores
9-2 STR
8 DEX
12 CON
16 INT
8 WIS
16 CHA

flaws: pathetic strength, noncombatant
feats:
1 practiced manifester
1 extend power
1 metapower:extend power & psionic minor creation
1 psicrystal affinity
1 elemental steward
3 psicrystal containment

powers
Psionic Minor Creation
Endure Elements
Matter Agitation

at level 1 i have a geodite fighting for me

no problems





at level 2 i use a medium sized statue as a two handed weapon. i carry it around in one hand, i cast personal weapon augmentation and hold the charge on the other hand. when combat starts i ready my weapon as a free action which discharges personal weapon augmentation onto my statue, bestowing it the flying property which turns it into a medium animated object. both my medium animated object and geodite fight stuff for me.

change improvised weapon to inappropriately sized club shaped like a statue. or a club transformer action figure that transforms between robot and club.




at level 3 i stack two extend powers on psionic minor creation to increase its duration to 3 x 2 x 2 = 12 hours

doctor awkward confirmed same metapsionic stack. only question is does double extended minor creation cost 1pp or 3pp per cast.

"You choose one power known to you to become permanently modified by one metapsionic feat you know. The cost of modifying your chosen power with metapsionic feats is reduced by 2 power points"

so this is where it gets funny.
first sentence says one metapsionic feat.
second sentence says metapsionic feats. plural.
obviously this is a typo. because if ruled as written then this feat lets me reduce the power point cost of any metapsionic feat applied to it.
anyways this is from the unreleased yet leaked official comp psi errata.

"Metapower, Benefit:
Fix: replace the entire benefit text with the following, more comprehensible explanation:
“Choose one power and one metapsionic feat you know. From now on, whenever you manifest
the chosen power, it is modified with the metapsionic feat you chose. The total power point cost of the
metapower is 2 less than it would cost to manifest the power with the metapsionic feat normally. Except
for the reduced power point cost, all other prerequisites for using the metapsionic feat and power together
still apply (for example, you may still be required to expend your psionic focus). Once a metapower is
created, it cannot be changed. A metapower can be used, as if a regular unmodified power, with other
metapsionic feats you know."

so from this we can gather how the feat is supposed to work.

so in conclusion, doctor awkward was right and i was wrong.
to fix this, i'm gonna have to boost my int to 18 which makes me pp total 8. with the extra 2 power points i will simply manifest an extended psionic minor creation twice.
so
paper that lasts 12 hours
ink that lasts 12 hours
pen that lasts 6 hours
once pen goes poof manifest it again for the last 6 hours.

thank you doctor awkward.




it takes 8 hours to craft a scroll that costs 1000gp or less
crafting materials for scrolls are mundane. official examples are high quality paper, linen paper, parchment, vellum, a quill, high quality ink, kraken ink, and half petrified calf vellum.
minor creation can create any mundane item
so put all this together and my artificer, at level 3, can create scrolls that last 4 hours after completion without paying gp by manifesting minor creation 3 times, one for paper, one for ink, and one for pen by passing a dc20 craft check for each which is done simply by taking 10.

research a little more about pure plant writing implements and ink. otherwise no problems.

As for taking 10 with the check, ive proven without a doubt you can. no question. as other poster said, open and shut.




the scroll i make is lesser planar binding from the nar demonbinder spell list whose minimum caster level is 2 and spell level 4.
4 x 2 x 25 = 200gp so i can make it with minor creation in 8 hours.
xp cost is 8xp.

only one guy say there is an unknown dm fiat minimum caster level. i say hodge podge. why dont we take a look at the rules.
lets look at sublime chord.
"A sublime chord’s caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class."

caster level of her spells = arcane spellcasting class + sublime chord. nothing about minimum caster level required to cast spells. just that if she casts spells, its this cl.
sublime chord gets 4th and 5th level spells. so a normal entry of bard10, his minimum caster level of 4th and 5th spells is identically 11.
but wait, bard7/fighter3 also qualifies. so his minimum caster level is 8 for both 4th and 5th level spells
but wait, wizard5/bard1/fighter4 also qualifies. so his minimum caster level for 4th and 5th level spells is 6 if attached to wizard. or 2 if he attaches it to bard which is perfectly normal and intended because the PrC directly says if you have two arcane classes, choose one. and wizard5/bard1/fighter4 is a legitimate none cheese build because a gish who wants lots of levels in fighter is gonna find a way to minimize his spellcasting levels to maximize fighter levels before choosing sublime chord.

so cl2 4th and 5th level spells is intended, normal, and unambiguously clear. so the person who said dm fiat unknown minimum caster level is baseless and has no rules supporting his claim. the prc does not say "if you dont have at least 10 caster level you cant cast any spells". it only say "you must have this much ability score to cast spells".

so enough of this.




i make a cage whose roof slides down the bars and squishes anyone inside.
the cage roof is held up by an animated object
the roof is double the maximum carry weight of a mirror mephit
the bars are close together so there is no line of effect.
i cast lesser planar binding into the cage through a 1ftx1ft hole at the top of the cage
when a mirror mephit pops into the cage my animated object drops the roof ontop of it, smooshing it.
the mirror mephit is now trapped. can't move because he's smooshed and doesn't have line of effect to anything.
i then spend however many days it takes to succeed that charisma check.

only contention is whether i need to use magic circle or can i use a mundane trap. complete mage says i can use a mundane trap. so nothing wrong here.

oh and doctor awkward is wrong again
"A character can lift as much as his or her maximum load over his or her head. "

so i don't need 161 pounds. only 81 pounds. but i go 160 pounds to be safe.




i have the mirror mephit create a simulacrum of a 8hd mirror mephit so when its hd is cut in half its 4 so i don't have to change any stats.
mirror mephit orders the simulacrum to obey me
mirror mephit goes poof.
simulacrum mirror mephit does the same thing. create a 8hd mirror mephit and order it to obey me.
we kill the 1st simulacrum mirror mephit. this way the original mirror mephit can't steal control of my simulacrum in the future.

and that's it. my artificer can get a mirror mephit simulacrum at level 3 with no access to shops, civilization or anything like that.

in order for advanced creatures to not exist, the dm must house rule away all instances of advanced creatures in d&d such as
stat blocks for advanced creatures like ranger troll
"for players" sections of lots of monsters that say to call an advanced creature the player must use higher level spells
cosmic descryer class feature
change "base creature is most commonly encountered" into "base creature is only encountered and only unique creatures have advanced hd" from mm rules
treat advancement section of the stat block as not a statement of what kind of higher hd creatures exist, but treat it as.. iunno. maybe ignore this entry.

and since im making advanced creatures to avoid using iron golem simulacrum in combat and instead use 8hd blade guardian because i know iron golem with half hd is still gonna have way too high str, dr, and ac to be challenged by anything and therefore break game, yeah.



so i guess thats it.
use a special club instead of improvised weapon.
wrong about metapower so increase int from 16 to 18.
look into plant tools a little more.
and everyone else is wrong about the rest. unless they provide me with proof im wrong. rule text. none of this dm dm dm stuff.

[Doctor Awkward]

oh and doctor awkward is wrong again
"A character can lift as much as his or her maximum load over his or her head. "

so i don't need 161 pounds. only 81 pounds. but i go 160 pounds to be safe.

Lifting and Dragging: (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm#liftingandDragging)

A character can lift as much as double his or her maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it.

You don't need to be able to lift a slab over your head to get out from under it. You just need to be able to lift it. Carry capacities on that table are multiplied by 3/4 for small sized creatures (See "Bigger and Smaller Creatures" on that same page), hence a mirror mephit (small creature with 8 Strength), can lift 80*0.75 * 2 = 120 pounds. Any physical object you wish to mush it with must be at least one pound heavier to keep it from moving it off of them.

[newguydude1]

Lifting and Dragging: (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm#liftingandDragging)


You don't need to be able to lift a slab over your head to get out from under it. You just need to be able to lift it. Carry capacities on that table are multiplied by 3/4 for small sized creatures (See "Bigger and Smaller Creatures" on that same page), hence a mirror mephit (small creature with 8 Strength), can lift 80*0.75 * 2 = 120 pounds. Any physical object you wish to mush it with must be at least one pound heavier to keep it from moving it off of them.

your right, im wrong. thank you so much. of all the posters here, i luv you the most.

[One Step Two]

I had a quick query about the Planar Binding Trap, which page exactly in complete mage says you can use a mundane trap? I'm searching it as best I can and there's no reference I can spot.

The section you quoted talks about dimensional anchor only?

[newguydude1]

I had a quick query about the Planar Binding Trap, which page exactly in complete mage says you can use a mundane trap? I'm searching it as best I can and there's no reference I can spot.

The section you quoted talks about dimensional anchor only?

its on page 28. it talks about various spellcaster archetypes and what spells and classes fit them most. under summoner it talks about planar binding a good deal.

[One Step Two]

Okay, so I've read page 28, and while the line at the end of the passage about Dimensional anchor reads:
"Any summoner planning to use a planar binding spell would be wise to learn an appropriate magic circle spell to strengthen the trap as well."
Has your DM taken this passage of "tips and tricks" as a legitimate Ruling against the text of the original planar binding spell? You claim that Complete Mage says you can, but but it reads more like prose than an actual ruling. The passage makes no mention of a mundane trap, only that "[you] would be wise to learn am appropriate magic circle spell to strengthen the trap", the trap that Planar Binding, Lesser (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm) Explicitly calls out as a Magic Circle spell faced inwards. Am I missing anything specific in there at all? I feel like I am.

[newguydude1]

Okay, so I've read page 28, and while the line at the end of the passage about Dimensional anchor reads:
"Any summoner planning to use a planar binding spell would be wise to learn an appropriate magic circle spell to strengthen the trap as well."
Has your DM taken this passage of "tips and tricks" as a legitimate Ruling against the text of the original planar binding spell? You claim that Complete Mage says you can, but but it reads more like prose than an actual ruling. The passage makes no mention of a mundane trap, only that "[you] would be wise to learn am appropriate magic circle spell to strengthen the trap", the trap that Planar Binding, Lesser (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm) Explicitly calls out as a Magic Circle spell faced inwards. Am I missing anything specific in there at all? I feel like I am.

no you're not. thats about it.

the mundane trap thing came up because dread necros have planar binding but not magic circle so how can they use them? and then my dm thought dread necros use planar binding to get corpses. but that would still mean they need to be able to call creatures into open space. and if thats true then they can call them into cages as well.

planar binding is the spell that does the slavery thing and returns the creature to where it came. magic circle does nothing but hold him still until the deal is made and the rest of planar binding effect activates. so you dont need magic circle other than to hold the guy still

he thought regardless of what the spell says, a trap is a trap. a tiger trap is a trap. a bear trap is a trap. if the creature gets trapped in a cage that holds him until he dies, its a trap.

then he thought about making a bad magic circle inside a cage and just calling a creature in there. circle or no if the creature agrees to perform a service then the spell will bind him to the caster. so in this case hes just using magic circle as a homing beacon rather than something to actually hold a creature.

then my dm saw that post about planar binding is slavery, which is this
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?573043-Planar-Binding-is-SLAVERY

saw in complete mage that you do in fact can call creatures into mundane "traps" and says thats enough for him to rule that you can call creatures into mundane traps without a magic circle as a homing beacon.

thats what he said to me and ive just been parroting it to everyone who asks. is it a house rule? because planar binding is a really badly written spell. did you know it takes 10minutes to cast? you can't cast it within 1 round of casting magic circle. so my dm says the spell as written is dysfunctional so you gotta use how wotc uses the spell to see how it really works. and complete mage is one instance of how wotc uses the spell to clarify how the spell works. the only conflict here is that "you must use magic circle as a trap" where as complete mage says you can use magic circle to strengthen the trap.

or something like that iunno. if you have complaints ill relay it to him and ill write his response here.

his changes i guess is
cast planar binding within 1 round of magic circle into start casting planar binding within 1 round of magic circle.
must use magic circle as a trap into can use magic circle as a trap.

from a ruled as written point of view, the spell target is outsider and range is short. so magic circle or no you can call an outsider into anywhere near the spells range.

[jdizzlean]

anything a DM says rules wise, that isn't verbatim out of a printed book, is a house rule. If you're using house rules to handle situations in a game, it doesn't matter what anyone else has to say about it, as they aren't applying the house rule, in which case you'll never find common ground on any arguments to be made for or against. that is the basis of DM fiat/rule zero.

[newguydude1]

anything a DM says rules wise, that isn't verbatim out of a printed book, is a house rule.

complete mage is a printed book.

[One Step Two]

complete mage is a printed book.

Complete Mage is indeed printed, but your well-explained post about your DM's reasoning on the change to Planar Binding is entirely a house rule. I have no complaints, a DM making rules changes to benefit players is great!
As a heads up, if you do have any other house rules in place that affect your build and how it works, letting the forum know ahead of time helps save some confusion. Without any reference to changes, most posters will by default assume pure RAW, especially when making assessments of your build. That's partly why I was super confused about you statement that complete mage says you can use mundane traps, without a common verbatim reference, we get into rules weirdness that only your DM can adjudicate, which he has, in your favor no less!

[newguydude1]

Complete Mage is indeed printed, but your well-explained post about your DM's reasoning on the change to Planar Binding is entirely a house rule. I have no complaints, a DM making rules changes to benefit players is great!
As a heads up, if you do have any other house rules in place that affect your build and how it works, letting the forum know ahead of time helps save some confusion. Without any reference to changes, most posters will by default assume pure RAW, especially when making assessments of your build. That's partly why I was super confused about you statement that complete mage says you can use mundane traps, without a common verbatim reference, we get into rules weirdness that only your DM can adjudicate, which he has, in your favor no less!

is it a house rule though?
complete mage says you can trap creatures with planar binding without magic circle.
magic circle does nothing other than hold a creature still
you can cast planar binding into open space
open space or inside cage same thing

i dont want to use it if its a house rule even if dm says ok.

[Trandir]

I'm late to the party but for the scrolls of lesser planar binding one wouldn't need at least 5 levels of artificier? To craft a scroll the minimum caster level is the level required to cast the spell, e.i. 7 -2 from the artificier class feature.

[newguydude1]

I'm late to the party but for the scrolls of lesser planar binding one wouldn't need at least 5 levels of artificier? To craft a scroll the minimum caster level is the level required to cast the spell, e.i. 7 -2 from the artificier class feature.

minimum caster level is 2 not 7. nar demonbinder and sublime chord both can have cl2 lesser planar binding. 2-2=0. with money i can get it at level 1 but this build is trying to do it without money.

[Trandir]

minimum caster level is 2 not 7. nar demonbinder and sublime chord both can have cl2 lesser planar binding. 2-2=0. with money i can get it at level 1 but this build is trying to do it without money.

Naaaaa. You still need at lest 7 caster levels to cast 4th level spells. It doesn't matter if a prestige class get a spell at first level the spell level sets a minimum requirement

[One Step Two]

is it a house rule though?
complete mage says you can trap creatures with planar binding without magic circle.
magic circle does nothing other than hold a creature still
you can cast planar binding into open space
open space or inside cage same thing

i dont want to use it if its a house rule even if dm says ok.

The explicit text of complete mage does not say you can use planar binding without a magic circle however, it makes no ruling changes, the only line that causes this confusion is:
"Any summoner planning to use a planar binding spell would be wise to learn an appropriate magic circle spell to strengthen the trap as well."
That does not change the text of the Planar Binding spell to remove the need for the written trap of a magic circle.

And your assumptions for the Planar Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm) spell seems off, the text is quite explicit:
"Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell’s range. The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom.

To create the trap, you must use a magic circle spell, focused inward."

Emphasis mine. Nothing in complete mage changes this. If the House Rules wok in your favor just go with it.

[EisenKreutzer]

The explicit text of complete mage does not say you can use planar binding without a magic circle however, it makes no ruling changes, the only line that causes this confusion is:
"Any summoner planning to use a planar binding spell would be wise to learn an appropriate magic circle spell to strengthen the trap as well."
That does not change the text of the Planar Binding spell to remove the need for the written trap of a magic circle.

And your assumptions for the Planar Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm) spell seems off, the text is quite explicit:
"Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell’s range. The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom.

To create the trap, you must use a magic circle spell, focused inward."

Emphasis mine. Nothing in complete mage changes this. If the House Rules wok in your favor just go with it.

This is the correct answer.

[newguydude1]

The explicit text of complete mage does not say you can use planar binding without a magic circle however, it makes no ruling changes, the only line that causes this confusion is:
"Any summoner planning to use a planar binding spell would be wise to learn an appropriate magic circle spell to strengthen the trap as well."
That does not change the text of the Planar Binding spell to remove the need for the written trap of a magic circle.

And your assumptions for the Planar Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm) spell seems off, the text is quite explicit:
"Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell’s range. The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom.

To create the trap, you must use a magic circle spell, focused inward."

Emphasis mine. Nothing in complete mage changes this. If the House Rules wok in your favor just go with it.

ok i look for other way. either find way to make complete mage work or find another way to get mephit in cage.


Naaaaa. You still need at lest 7 caster levels to cast 4th level spells. It doesn't matter if a prestige class get a spell at first level the spell level sets a minimum requirement

give quote from rules. i already had this argument. not gonna repeat. give quote or this is your headcanon.

[Caelestion]

Perhaps it would be salient if you demonstrate how the demonbinder can cast a 4th-level spell as a 1st-level spell.

[Trandir]

give quote from rules. i already had this argument. not gonna repeat. give quote or this is your headcanon.

PHB p 171:

"CASTER LEVEL
A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most
spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re
using to cast the spell. For example, a fireball deals 1d6 points of
damage per caster level (to a maximum of 10d6), so a 10th-level
wizard can cast a more powerful fireball than a 5th-level wizard can.
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the
caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell
in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the
same caster level. For example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast a fireball
to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage. If she wishes, she
can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower
caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected
caster level, and she can’t cast fireball with a caster level lower than
5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball).
In the event that a class feature, domain granted power, or other
special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that
adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as
range, duration, and damage dealt) but also to your caster level
check to overcome your target’s spell resistance (see Spell Resis-
tance, page 177) and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both
the dispel check and the DC of the check). For instance, a 7th-level
cleric with the Good domain casts spells with the good descriptor as
if he were 8th level. This means that his holy smite deals 4d8 points of
damage, he tolls 1d20+8 to overcome spell resistance with his good
spells, and his protection from evil spell resists being dispelled as if it
had been cast by an 8th-level spellcaster."

DMG p 282:

"While item creation costs are handled in detail elsewhere, note
that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the
creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A cre-
ator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but
never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed
spell. For example, a 15th-level wizard could craft a wand of fireball
at 10th caster level, or even as low as 5th level (the minimum
caster level for fireball, a 3rd-level spell), but no lower"

So an artificier still needs a CL equal to twice the spell level minus three to craft any scroll. And this also raises the base cost of those scrolls to 7×4×25.

Now that I think about it you can't even pull of the double staking of extended power since the old psionic handbook from 3.0 has been updated to the "new" advanced psionic handbook so you have only one extended feat and can only double the duration instead on 4 times it. Also I don't how if minor creation can create what in the DMG are called "magic supplies"

[newguydude1]

"While item creation costs are handled in detail elsewhere, note
that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the
creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A cre-
ator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but
never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed
spell. For example, a 15th-level wizard could craft a wand of fireball
at 10th caster level, or even as low as 5th level (the minimum
caster level for fireball, a 3rd-level spell), but no lower"

exactly.

also this
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm

These numbers assume that the creator is a cleric, druid, or wizard.

a lesser planar binding scroll made by wizard is cl 9
a lesser planar binding scroll made by sorcerer is cl 10
a lesser planar binding scroll made by nar demonbinder or sublime chord is cl2
a lesser planar binding scroll made by a cleric with the demonic domain is cl9
a lesser planar binding scroll made by a divine crusader with the demonic domain is cl 5

so the minimum cl of a scroll of lesser planar binding on the sorcerer class spell list is 10
so the minimum cl of a scroll of lesser planar binding on the wizard class spell list is 9
so the minimum cl of a scroll of lesser planar binding on the nar demonbinder class spell list is 2
so the minimum cl of a scroll of lesser planar binding on the cleric class spell list is 9
so the minimum cl of a scroll of lesser planar binding on the divine crusader class spell list is 5

i choose to make nar demonbinder scroll.


Now that I think about it you can't even pull of the double staking of extended power since the old psionic handbook from 3.0 has been updated to the "new" advanced psionic handbook so you have only one extended feat and can only double the duration instead on 4 times it.

there is nothing explicitly prohibiting the use of same metapsionic feat more than once on the same power, like there is for metamagic feats and spells.

Also I don't how if minor creation can create what in the DMG are called "magic supplies"

You create a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving, vegetable matter. The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per caster level. You must succeed on an appropriate skill check to make a complex item.

Attempting to use any created object as a material component causes the spell to fail.

[One Step Two]

i choose to make nar demonbinder scroll.

This relies on the DM allowing you to make use of:


its easy. go wizard 7 and sorcerer 1. attach nar demonbinder to sorcerer. cl2. no work. so easy.

Has your DM allowed that an Artificer can make a theoretical scroll from a potential Wizard 7/Sorcerer 1/Nar Demonbinder?

Because under the Magic Item creation rules, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) it states:

"The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it."

[Falontani]

big ol snip

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?599964-Minimum-Caster-Levels-Myth-or-Dysfunction&highlight=Minimum+caster+level

Tldr; minimum cl may or may not actually exist, I think that thread decided that they probably exist, and were technically defined, but incredibly poorly. However prestige classes specifically have different rules for their mcl, so what the op is attempting to do (When looked at with mcl) is completely RAW legal

[newguydude1]

This is the correct answer.

this is why i make thread. if i learn my character is wrong after playing him for a while i feel like a cheater. dont like feeling like a cheater.
made mistake with metapower
made mistake with planar binding

these are big, big, big mistakes. thank you all for correcting me. with rules. not dm dm dm stuff.


This relies on the DM allowing you to make use of:



Has your DM allowed that an Artificer can make a theoretical scroll from a potential Wizard 7/Sorcerer 1/Nar Demonbinder?

Because under the Magic Item creation rules, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) it states:

"The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it."

i dont want to argue this anymore, planar binding needing magic circle means i need 4 levels of artificer which means i can just use divine crusader spell list.

i am making new build. please proofread that too. thank you very much. its gonna go all in on persona weapon augmentation +1 flying.

[newguydude1]

ok new build. before i begin i quote rules since everyone keeps forgetting rules.

The weapon you touch temporarily gains a special ability commonly found on magic weapons. You can choose any special ability whose market price is equivalent to a +1 bonus or up to 10,000 gp, such as flaming or keen. The weapon does not have to have an existing enhancement bonus, nor does it gain one when you imbue it with this infusion. The weapon gains the benefit of the infusion only if you wield, throw, or fire it.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm

Thrown Weapons

Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Weight figures are for Medium weapons. A Small weapon weighs half as much, and a Large weapon weighs twice as much.

A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

A flying weapon can fly at speed 30 feet and is treated as an animated object with hardness and hit points equal to a typical weapon of its kind. A flying weapon follows orders subject to the limits of its ability (it has no Intelligence) but can be ordered to guard a location just as an animated skeleton can. Only melee weapons can have the flying ability.
please read this power
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm

level: 20
class: psychic warrior1, artificer19
race: human
ability scores
9 STR
8-2 DEX
14 CON
18 INT
8 WIS
10 CHA

flaws: pathetic dex, noncombatant
feats:
1 practiced manifester
1 psicrystal affinity
1 elemental envoy (thank you doctor awkward)
1 eschew materials
1 extend spell
3 monkey grip

powers
expansion

at level 1 i have a geodite killing everything for me

at level 2 according arms equipment guide a stone dagger has 1hp. according to d20srd it weighs 1lb and is 2 size category smaller than me so tiny.
so large sized stone dagger is 2x2x2=8. 8hp, 8lbs, and costs 16gp.
i get geodite to blast a good chunk of stone from dungeon wall or mountain. then i spend 5 days creating it into a dagger for a gargantuan creature.
dagger is a transformer. bottom 1/3 of dagger (pointy end) splits in half and becomes legs. upper 1/3 of dagger (handle) splits in half and become hands. middle 1/3 is torso with empty space so i can climb inside.
geodite carries stone daggers for me.
i cast personal weapon augmentation and hold the charge.
when fight begins i spend my first turn manifesting expansion, growing to large. then i grab stone dagger that geodite is holding which enchants it with flying.
geodite kills stuff
next turn i spend full-round action throwing stone dagger. stone dagger then stands up and kills stuff with geodite for me.
stone dagger transformed flies around like superman and hits stuff with its fists or feet. doesnt matter damage is the same. 8hp. 8hardness.
if i am scared i climb into stone daggers empty space in torso and stay inside so nothing has line of effect to me.
i also cast another personal weapon augmentation inside the dagger in case someone casts dispel magic. dispel magic = i useless.

at level 3 i make dagger for colossal monster. so its a huge sized dagger. 16hp. 16lbs. 8 hardness. costs 32gp. same as before geodite blasts stone for a good chunk.
same as level 2 in combat. expansion, grab huge sized dagger, throw it.

level 4, 5 and 6 is same as level 3.
my level and animated object uptime.
2 30min 3 casts
3 80min 4 casts
4 4 hours 6 casts
5 6 hours 40min 7 casts
6 13 hours 20min 10 casts
7 17 hours 10 casts
it stops at 10 casts because i only have 10pp so only 10 expansions

level 7, if i want, i use spellstoring item for magic circle and lesser planar binding demonologist spell list. i make the same cage as i said before so rolling a 1 doesn't matter and i do the whole mirror mephit simulacrum thing.
or not. i think huge animated object is stronger than any simulacrum i make whose cr is equal to party ecl.
if i dont then i just keep using huge animated object 24/7.
i probably wont because spellstoring item costs xp. i dont like using xp.

level 9 i use concurrent infusions for free spellstoring item. i get mirror mephit for sure right now since its free.

i dont know when but when i have enough colossal animated object uptime, i will use concurrent infusion to turn myself into a huge giant, expansion to make myself gargantuan giant, and then throw a colossal sized dagger for colossal animated object.
or not. colossal animated object might not fit into dungeon. i read i can destroy dungeon with adamantine made with major creation and enchanted with adamantine weapon, but i dont think dm like me destroying dungeon so i might stick with simulacrum for smaller monsters.

edit: on second thought, because dispel magic is so popular, i might just grab the mirror mephit at level 7.

[ben-zayb]

Someone more knowledgeable than me about the rules might be able to clarify this, but what are the rules again for more recent printings of a named identity (item, feat, etc.)?

Magic of Faerun was published August 2001 and Oriental Adventures was published October later that year. It does not help that these are supplements for completely different settings.
Both have the Flying weapon enhancement but they do very different things, and the latest printing puts a damper on your animated weapon schtick.

[sorcererlover]

Someone more knowledgeable than me about the rules might be able to clarify this, but what are the rules again for more recent printings of a named identity (item, feat, etc.)?

Magic of Faerun was published August 2001 and Oriental Adventures was published October later that year. It does not help that these are supplements for completely different settings.
Both have the Flying weapon enhancement but they do very different things, and the latest printing puts a damper on your animated weapon schtick.

They're different things with the same name.

Wall of Water for example, is originally printed in dragon magazine and made it into SpC. In Sandstorm however there is also a Wall of Water and it does something completely different. And if you look at SpC's bibliography it does not list Sandstorm as a source but it does list the Dragon Magazine that had the first Wall of Water.

So what we can learn from this is WotC releases different things under the same name occasionally and its the same case with the Flying enchantment. The existence of one doesn't negate the existence of the other. Just like both Wall of Waters are two entirely different spells that do entirely different things and is not an update or errata of one another, both Flying weapon enchantments are two entirely different enchantments that also do entirely different things and is not an update or errata of one another.

[newguydude1]

ok. entire day pass. no one say anything so i think my build is perfectly legal. ok good. i happy. animated objects are awesome.

some other stuff
i reduce craft time to 2 days. take 10 geodite with skill enhancement has 14 craft check. i can hit 22 with ranks, int, and skill enhancement. with quick crafting in a week geodite and i make 14x12+22x22=652. only need 160 to craft. 160/652 x 7 = 1.7 days. so 2 days. and repairing a broken destroyed stone dagger is gonna take 1.7/5 x 24 = 8 hours.

also geodite can break dungeon walls for huge animated object fit. dont need adamantine stuff. i stop if dm get mad i break his dungeon.

geodite so useful. great fighter. stone breaker. craft helper.

races of stone also give dwarvencraft item. gives +2 hardness. i make once i have unseen crafters.

[Calthropstu]

ok. entire day pass. no one say anything so i think my build is perfectly legal. ok good. i happy.

That or people got sick of replying.
I am in the latter. Many others appear to be as well. Good luck on your build. *shrugs*

[sorcererlover]

That or people got sick of replying.
I am in the latter. Many others appear to be as well. Good luck on your build. *shrugs*

I'm in the former.

Expansion is not a Psion power but a Psychic Warrior power. He chose Psychic Warrior. So that checks out.
Psychic Warriors have bonus feats so his feat count checks out
Humans have favored class:any so no problems there.
His ability scores check out.
His power count checks out.
He got the fact that Psychic Warriors start with 0pp and get upto 10 pp with his build.
Arms and Equipment guide does in fact state directly that stone daggers are legal and they have 1hp.

I checked Personal Weapon Augmentation and Flying out. Flying is a weapon enchantment not intended to be used while being wielded and is in fact intended to be used as a cheap permanent animated object to guard locations. As newguydude1 plans on personally using it for himself like Personal Weapon Augmentation intended instead of somehow get his party members to use it, I see no problems in both RAW and RAI of his usage of the infusion and weapon special ability. He's using the enchantment as intended, for himself as the infusion intended.

His throwing rules check out. He's not throwing anything that's not a two-handed weapon for him.
His weapon size calculations check out.
Expansion isn't limited to humans like Enlarge Person. So that checks out.
Geodites do in fact create tunnels in solid stone so using them to break stone to fit large creatures or to source dagger materials check out.
I've seen scimitars shaped like dolphins in campaign modules so a dagger that looks like a robot is totally acceptable.
The only POSSIBLE problem I see here is that the moving parts in the dagger MIGHT make it a DC20 check for complex item. But this is minor.

Casting a spell while holding a touch spell dissipates the spell. But powers aren't spells and magic-psionics transparency only talks about spell resistance and dispel magic. So no problems here.
I even checked out his uptime calculations. They check out.

Regarding Lesser Planar Binding, he's using Magic Circle now so no problems with the rules there.
I've read Lesser Planar Binding over to see whether you still can make the deal with the creature if it breaks free of the circle, but not a cage. I'm gonna lean with yes.

This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve, until it breaks free, or until you decide to get rid of it by means of some other spell. Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to. If you roll a 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the binding and can escape or attack you.
So if "binding" refers to Planar Binding then there's no way you can make a deal, but then he'd still be trapped in the magic circle so he can't escape or attack you. So obviously the rules are not refering to Planar Binding.
If "binding" refers to Magic Circle, then the cage prevents him from "breaking free" so he can repeat the process.

And even with a worse case scenario ruling, the cage will just make it super easy to kill the Mirror Mephit so even if you can't enslave him, you can kill him.

I didn't post anything because there was nothing wrong with his build and I didn't want to type all this. But seeing the OP continually harassed made me sad so I did.

[magicalmagicman]

The only POSSIBLE problem I see here is that the moving parts in the dagger MIGHT make it a DC20 check for complex item. But this is minor.
According to the PHB, Punching Daggers are Katars. The picture of a punching dagger is also a katar. This is a Katar
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/90/85/1b/90851bc7facb0a6629ac77c3f39153bf.jpg

If you look at the 3.5 official animated object picture
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/9/97/Animated_object.jpg/revision/latest/top-crop/width/360/height/450?cb=20180812123659

You can see the object can bend whatever material it is made up of as if it was rope. So instead of making a "transformer". Just make a fancy punching dagger with two blades. The blades will bend to be its legs, and the entire body of the robot including its hands and head can just be a fancy basket hilt for the katar.

Alternatively use a longsword and make it look like a Marilith or some other half snake robot.

[newguydude1]

I didn't post anything because there was nothing wrong with his build and I didn't want to type all this. But seeing the OP continually harassed made me sad so I did.

thank you. i luv you.


According to the PHB, Punching Daggers are Katars. The picture of a punching dagger is also a katar. This is a Katar
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/90/85/1b/90851bc7facb0a6629ac77c3f39153bf.jpg

If you look at the 3.5 official animated object picture
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/9/97/Animated_object.jpg/revision/latest/top-crop/width/360/height/450?cb=20180812123659

You can see the object can bend whatever material it is made up of as if it was rope. So instead of making a "transformer". Just make a fancy punching dagger with two blades. The blades will bend to be its legs, and the entire body of the robot including its hands and head can just be a fancy basket hilt for the katar.

Alternatively use a longsword and make it look like a Marilith or some other half snake robot.

thank you too. i will do as you say.

i guess thread is over now. thank you. good bye. if forum had likes id give a lot of people here a lot of likes.

[newguydude1]

i think doctor awkward is right and sorcererlover is wrong. i read lesser planar binding over and over and over, and i think when it says "break free of the binding", it means break free of the planar binding. so the cage plan is wrong.

so does this work instead?

level 9, so my artificer cl is 8.

day 1
concurrent infusions for free spell storing item of magic circle against evil
concurrent infusions for free spell storing item of lesser planar binding from nar demonbinder spell list.
save dc is 10 + 4 + 2 = 16. so 55% chance of success against mirror mephit +4 save.
cast both to bind a mirror mephit.

day 2
concurrent infusions for free spell storing item of minor creation
concurrent infusions for free spell storing item of minor creation
spell storing item of minor creation costing 4 x 8 = 32xp.
cast metamagic item on all 3 and imbue it with extend spell for 16hr duration.
cast all three to create ink, paper, and dip pen.
spend 8 hours with exceptional artisan to create a scroll of surge of fortune from the cleric spell list costing 5 x 9 = 45xp. use craft reserve.
cast scroll and use it to roll a natural 20 on the charisma check with the mirror mephit for 100% success rate.

could someone proofread? thanks.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Day 1: You're good.
Day 2: I would recommend using an ink brush over a pen in case of nitpickiness: dip pens require dye based inks, not pigment based, so the ink is based on salts and minerals and not vegetable matter. Ink brushes can be easily made from vegetable material (wood, rice glue, and corn husk fiber for example) and can accept pigment based inks so you will be on the solidest of ground there. Aside from that this should work perfectly.

[newguydude1]

Day 1: You're good.
Day 2: I would recommend using an ink brush over a pen in case of nitpickiness: dip pens require dye based inks, not pigment based, so the ink is based on salts and minerals and not vegetable matter. Ink brushes can be easily made from vegetable material (wood, rice glue, and corn husk fiber for example) and can accept pigment based inks so you will be on the solidest of ground there. Aside from that this should work perfectly.

thank you for posting despite our fight. you are really nice guy. better than me. i will do as you say. thanks.

[newguydude1]

Day 1: You're good.
Day 2: I would recommend using an ink brush over a pen in case of nitpickiness: dip pens require dye based inks, not pigment based, so the ink is based on salts and minerals and not vegetable matter. Ink brushes can be easily made from vegetable material (wood, rice glue, and corn husk fiber for example) and can accept pigment based inks so you will be on the solidest of ground there. Aside from that this should work perfectly.

according to wikipedia dip pens can be used with india ink
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dip_pen
according to this india ink is made from charcoal
https://www.ehow.com/how_6590230_make-homemade-india-ink.html

so i think i can use dip pens made out of bronzewood instead of a brush.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Okay, excellent find. Sounds like you have several solid options to make your supplies. I was originally avoiding India Ink in case of grey area since charcoal is carbon + minerals + water. Keep the brush idea in your back pocket just in case since you could just make ink from concentrated berry juice (clearly vegetable matter) and proceed with the dip pen.

[magicalmagicman]

I find it amusing that no one pointed out the silliness of a 1st level Psychic Warrior grabbing both Eschew Materials and Extend Spell at level 1. Both don't have any prerequisites so it's legal, but it's silly nonetheless.