Ultimate OOTS Book Tournament 2: Match 13 (SoD vs GDGU)!

[137beth]

Greetings to all people of the Playground, and welcome to
The Ultimate Order of the Stick Book Tournament II!


Back in 2014, I ran (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?339639-The-Ultimate-Order-of-the-Stick-Book-Tournament-Round-1) a series of polls to determine the forum's favorite OOTS book. Start of Darkness won that tournament (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?362708-The-Ultimate-Order-of-the-Stick-Book-Tournament-THE-FINALS!), defeating Blood Runs in the Family by one vote. Since that time, the number of available books has increased, and the readership has had more time to reflect on earlier stories in light of more recent events. Hence, I felt it was time for another tournament. Without further ado, I present

The Contestants

Start of Darkness
War and XP
Don't Split the Party
Blood Runs in the Family
Good Deeds Gone Unpunished
Utterly Dwarfed


Dungeon Crawling Fools
On the Origins of the PCs
No Cure for the Paladin Blues
Snips, Snails and Dragon Tails
Haleo & Julelan + Uncivil Servant


I have grouped together the two stories which are currently digital-only. The 11 contestants will compete in a double elimination tournament, with your votes deciding who wins each match. The winner of the entire tournament will be crowned Grand Champion of the Stick!

Due to the fact that there are more than 8 but fewer than 16 contestants, five books will get a free pass on the first round. The contestants were seeded randomly. You can see the entire tournament bracket on Challonge (https://challonge.com/9vr5zli0).

Vote once in each match by posting your vote in this thread. Voting for this match will close Saturday, March 7, at which time I will post the next match. I will vote only in the case where a tie-breaking vote is needed. Please put your votes in bold, since it makes it easier for me when tallying them.

Now that half of the matches for this tournament are complete, we will be doing only one match at a time for the remainder of the tournament.


The Current Match

Match 13: Start of Darkness vs Good Deeds Gone Unpunished

I'm particularly excited to see the outcome of this match.

[Vulkos]

Start of Darkness.

[Peelee]

Good Deeds Gone Unpunished.

SOD is amazing, but GDGU has its equal on the "good" side of things, plus extra stories. Helluva book.

[LadyEowyn]

Good Deeds Gone Unpunished

Both SOD and How the Paladin Got His Scar are excellent, and each is better combined with each other, as thesis and antithesis or question and answer.

I prefer HTPGHS because while SOD establishes a truth - “Injustice exists” - HTPGHS establishes a response - “This is what we should do about it” - and has a very effective dialogue about that response through the medium of several different characters. The second I saw it was about O-Chul and goblinoids, I was prepared to evaluate his actions extremely critically, and he not only met but surpassed my expectations.

Yet, notably, even he isn’t always right in this story, and other characters challenge his ideas and force him to reevaluate some of his decisions and look at them not only from the perspective of “what is moral?” but “can we think of a moral decision that will actually produce a beneficial result?” He doesn’t change his moral views but he find a path that involves deploying self-sacrifice in a more effective manner than he initially thought of.

Additionally, O-Chul shows strong opinions of justice and treatment of the weak vs treatment of the powerful (contrast how he treats the goblin commoners - low-status people who are not initially on his side - with how he treats Hinjo - a high-status person who is). But even here his views aren’t the final word. The ending shows that he and his foster-mother have/had differing interpretations on which side of the protector/protected divide Bo is on, where O-Chul viewed her as a soldier with responsibilities while his foster-mother (and Hinjo) read her as a victim of an unjust economic system. Her happy ending involves both acting heroically (as O-Chul would want) and getting out of a military service she never wanted and was supremely unsuited for (as Hinjo, O-Chul’s foster mom, and Bo herself would want).

It’s an incredibly strongly written story; the best thing Rich has ever written, in my opinion, and a fantastic refutation to the idea that morally upstanding characters are boring.

The additional short stories are also a bonus - I’m quite fond of the Lien one and there are plenty of good elements in the Kazumi-and-Daigo one as well.

[Schroeswald]

Good Deeds Gone Unpunished

Both SOD and How the Paladin Got His Scar are excellent, and each is better combined with each other, as thesis and antithesis or question and answer.

I prefer HTPGHS because while SOD establishes a truth - “Injustice exists” - HTPGHS establishes a response - “This is what we should do about it” - and has a very effective dialogue about that response through the medium of several different characters. The second I saw it was about O-Chul and goblinoids, I was prepared to evaluate his actions extremely critically, and he not only met but surpassed my expectations.

Yet, notably, even he isn’t always right in this story, and other characters challenge his ideas and force him to reevaluate some of his decisions and look at them not only from the perspective of “what is moral?” but “can we think of a moral decision that will actually produce a beneficial result?” He doesn’t change his moral views but he find a path that involves deploying self-sacrifice in a more effective manner than he initially thought of.

Additionally, O-Chul shows strong opinions of justice and treatment of the weak vs treatment of the powerful (contrast how he treats the goblin commoners - low-status people who are not initially on his side - with how he treats Hinjo - a high-status person who is). But even here his views aren’t the final word. The ending shows that he and his foster-mother have/had differing interpretations on which side of the protector/protected divide Bo is on, where O-Chul viewed her as a soldier with responsibilities while his foster-mother (and Hinjo) read her as a victim of an unjust economic system. Her happy ending involves both acting heroically (as O-Chul would want) and getting out of a military service she never wanted and was supremely unsuited for (as Hinjo, O-Chul’s foster mom, and Bo herself would want).

It’s an incredibly strongly written story; the best thing Rich has ever written, in my opinion, and a fantastic refutation to the idea that morally upstanding characters are boring.

The additional short stories are also a bonus - I’m quite fond of the Lien one and there are plenty of good elements in the Kazumi-and-Daigo one as well.
I haven't really figured out my answer yet, but this is some really good reasoning that almost swayed me completely to team GDGU

[Linneris]

Both are very good books. But I'm going to vote for Good Deeds Gone Unpunished.

There are many stories that show a villain's rise to power, and there are many stories that show how and why people with good intentions slide into evil. But O-Chul's story just feels like a more mature story written by a more mature Rich, with many themes such as nature of ethics, individual and group responsibility, responsibility in geopolitics, and unintended consequences of well-meaning actions. And I personally find it refreshing how the book has a positive message overall, rather than a nihilistic "doing good is pointless" message.

For me personally, "How the Paladin Got His Scar" also came at just the right time: it was a perfect antidote to WoW's Battle for Azeroth expansion, with its insulting vilification of the other faction in each faction's story and an overall "us or them" message.

[CriticalFailure]

Start of Darkness.

I liked GDGU. The first two stories are cute. Lein and Therkla getting more backstory is good and Therkla's backstory fills in more of her personality and why she does what she does. How the Paladin Got His Scar is also very good, but overall SoD is better.

Both address a lot of ethical questions, but I think that the way Redcloak and Righteye's character arcs are intertwined with these questions (in comparison to HtPGHS, where O-Chul doesn't necessarily change much as a character but overcomes the challenge of how to face the situation he is in in a way that reflects his values) make SoD more compelling. In HtPGHS we see a flashback to why O-Chul has the values he has and how he applies them in a hard situation, but in SoD we see how Redcloak and Righteye come to have the values that they have through a combination of personality, the situations they are put in, and the choices they make. As opposed to just seeing how a character's values shape their response to a situation, we see a much more nuanced picture of how the values they have shape the choices they make but also how living with the consequences of these choices changes who they are, which then informs future decisions, etc. There's a back and forth that is really interesting.

Since HTPGHS is set in a narrow time frame we only get the side of ethics and responsibility that looks at why the characters make the choices they do, rather than the side that looks at how they deal with the consequences of the choices they make, while SoD looks at both. The fact that in SOD the main characters often make worse choices and are often in situations that to offer no really clear good choices doesn't make SoD worse - a lot of times there just isn't a clear good option and people have to make their decision and live with the consequences. That's a side of morality/responsibility that is worth investigating, even if it is a depressing one. SoD does a really good job at looking at how being forced to make hard choices and prioritize between values can change people and what the consequences of that look like.

There were also some situations in HtPGHS that seemed pretty on the nose for me; SoD has more stats based humor and pop culture references but imo the way it actually addresses morality is a bit more subtle and less black and white. The scene that sticks out the most to me is the Ettin attack, but there were other moments. Gin Jun as an antagonist also had a bit of this. It was hard to tell what his redeeming features that allowed him to keep his Lawful Good alignment and keep a bunch of good people following him were supposed to be because he seemed like he was designed to be everything O-Chul was not.

Overall, both are good, but Redcloak and Righteye's character arcs in SoD surpass the character development we get in GDGU, and overall SoD takes a more bit more nuanced and deeper look at responsibility and ethics than HTPGHS.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

This really is such a tough choice. I think that both stories are excellent, and which one I think is the best probably varies from day to day. For now, I’m going to go with Start of Darkness on account of a few things. First, it’s got the MitD! Who doesn’t love that? Second, I do prefer the climax of Start of Darkness to that of HtPGHS. Finally, I think SoD reveals a lot of very interesting things about the cosmology of OOTS, and that’s pretty cool.

None of this means that GDGU doesn’t also have a ton of really cool stuff going on and I totally reserve the right to change my vote, however. :smalltongue:

[Gift Jeraff]

Freshly cut SoD.

[understatement]

SOD. Redcloak, Xykon, and Right-Eye knock it out of the park.

Although GDGU is a pretty close second.

[Hardcore]

start of darkness

Funny and cool, but not nice. Harder emotional impact on me.

[KorvinStarmast]

Match 13: Start of Darkness vs Good Deeds Gone Unpunished
GDGU by a large margin.

[Bloodfeast]

SOD by far. GDGU has nice stories but it lacks a certain 'Wow! Now I understand this main plot character's motives so much better.' In SOD Redcloak is upgraded from Xycons sidekick to plot driving mastermind.

[pluizig]

Start of Darkness

[Laurana]

I vote [b]for Good Deeds Gone Unpunished[\b].

Sod is far too gloomy and dark for me. Gdgu has O-Chul's story, which is nice, and Therkla's and Lien's, that are awesome.

[KorvinStarmast]

I vote [b]for Good Deeds Gone Unpunished[\b].

Sod is far too gloomy and dark for me. Gdgu has O-Chul's story, which is nice, and Therkla's and Lien's, that are awesome. Rich was not as good of a writer when SOD was put together as he has become over time. IMO, GDGU is a good demonstration of his growth (IIRC, the stories were crafted at different times, and at least some of them were KS material/awards first)

Something about the Lien story really clicks for me.

[Procyonpi]

Start of Darkness

[137beth]

And voting is closed! The results:
Match 13: Start of Darkness vs Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (9-6)

The next match is up in a new thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?608133-Ultimate-OOTS-Book-Tournament-2-Match-14).