Bard replace a Rogue

[Whit]

How well and should a Bard replace a Rogue in a party.
If your party has a Cleric,Wizard,Fighter, should you replace a Rogue with a Bard and if so, which Bard subclass; if not, which Rogue subclass

[Morty]

I don't see why a bard shouldn't be able to cover a lot of the same space as a rogue.

[Quietus]

From a narrative perspective, they absolutely can. They won't have the option for expertise on their thieves' tools, but they can still get expertise in all the other important Rogue skills.

From a balance perspective, I'd consider what the other classes are doing. Bard brings less damage but more control than a rogue; if the rest of the party has plans for doing damage, you'll be fine. If not, you can probably still manage, but you'll want to be aware that individual combats will take longer.

[JNAProductions]

How well and should a Bard replace a Rogue in a party.
If your party has a Cleric,Wizard,Fighter, should you replace a Rogue with a Bard and if so, which Bard subclass; if not, which Rogue subclass

Should you? Depends on what the fourth player wants to do.

Can you? Definitely.

[stoutstien]

Between backgrounds and flexibility of skills/spells just about any class can emulate any of the traditional roles without much effort.

[HolyDraconus]

Bard replaces rogue easily. Doesn't matter which subclass. Damage is meaningless when you can shut down entire combatants, which a bard can do as a full caster.

[LudicSavant]

From a balance perspective, I'd consider what the other classes are doing. Bard brings less damage but more control than a rogue; if the rest of the party has plans for doing damage, you'll be fine. If not, you can probably still manage, but you'll want to be aware that individual combats will take longer.

Even if you do want to stab things to death, Swords Bard can arguably do it better than Rogue. And Whispers has a pseudo-sneak attack tacked right onto a full caster chassis that can pull off any spell list, and all the stabbing enhancements that go with that.

Bard is basically just a really strong class in 5e. You can be great at whatever role you want to. With the right build you should have no trouble taking the Rogue's job.

[Teaguethebean]

Really it is a question of what the wizard does on this team. I assume the fighter is a melee heavy armor wearer, cleric gives buffs and heals, and then if the wizard uses evocation spells, or control spells. If the wizard focuses on control a rogue will help fill the damage gap, and if he uses damage spells primarily then the control of a bard would help a lot.

[Quietus]

Even if you do want to stab things to death, Swords Bard can arguably do it better than Rogue. And Whispers has a pseudo-sneak attack tacked right onto a full caster chassis that can pull off any spell list, and all the stabbing enhancements that go with that.

Bard is basically just a really strong class in 5e. You can be great at whatever role you want to. With the right build you should have no trouble taking the Rogue's job.

Depends on the level. At level 6, a swords bard will certainly have the advantage with extra attack, if they're raising their attacking stat over their charisma. But from there, their damage will start to fall off again as the rogue gets more sneak attack dice. Up until that point, the bard's peak performance would be level 3 when they are doing slightly less than the rogue, unless they use a flourish, in which case they beat the rogue by a point or two at best, spending a 3/LR resource.

Don't get me wrong, this is not a dig at the bard. I love swords bard, and I'm honestly surprised as I roughed out the math at how close the damage actually is at these levels. But once you get Extra Attack, you aren't really going to see an improvement to the bard's damage outside of the very occasional die size bump from flourishes, until level 14 when you can guarantee a 1d6 flourish every round. Meanwhile, the rogue is adding 3.5 damage every odd level.

[LudicSavant]

Depends on the level. At level 6, a swords bard will certainly have the advantage with extra attack, if they're raising their attacking stat over their charisma. But from there, their damage will start to fall off again as the rogue gets more sneak attack dice. Up until that point, the bard's peak performance would be level 3 when they are doing slightly less than the rogue, unless they use a flourish, in which case they beat the rogue by a point or two at best, spending a 3/LR resource.

You've left out a very important factor: that the Swords Bard's stabbing potential can scale significantly with their spell progression. A high level Swords Bard build can outdamage Rogues by a pretty handy margin.

If you're not accounting for the Swords Bard's spellcasting, you're overlooking a huge portion of their potential DPR.

[Quietus]

You've left out a very important factor: that the Swords Bard's stabbing potential can scale significantly with their spell progression. A high level Swords Bard build can outdamage Rogues by a pretty handy margin.

Please elaborate? I don't disagree that you can use spells to shut down opposition as you level up, I did that myself with my AL swords bard9/Paladin 2. Spend a turn casting a spell to shape the combat, then go to stab town. But damage was always secondary, very much a "And me!" sort of thing rather than being my primary role. My main role was faerie fire/hold person/hypnotic pattern to allow us to take the combat at our own pace.

[LudicSavant]

Please elaborate?

A Swords Bard's damage needn't only come from unaugmented basic attacks + flourish.

Greater Invisibility? That's a DPR booster. Animate Objects? DPR booster. Simulacrum? Straight up doubles you. Holy Sword, Elemental Weapon, Shadow Blade, Contingency, Greater Steed, Hex, Crown of Stars, Banishing Smite? These and more are all things that Bards can grab if they're so inclined. And since you mention Paladin 2, that lets you scale damage even more with your spell slots (via smites).

Basically, you don't have to "level off" at 6th level. There's plenty more options down the line which can indeed compete with Sneak Attack growth.


My main role was

Bards can have wildly different playstyles depending on how they're built.

[ZerohFG]

I will be 100% biased and say

1-4 levels of rogue (arcane trickster if you get to 3) and lore bard the rest of the way. I usually only dip a level so as a bard my level 9 spells only slightly delayed.
Lore bard the rest of the way.

for an example a half-elf 1/10 rogue/lore bard has 6 skill expertise, 6 skill proficiency, and half proficiency in everything else which can be useful in combat with sneak attack, stealth, and thieves tool expertise like a rogue would have; or social skills with a capped charisma all in expertise. Bluff, persuade, intimidate your way to victory. Throw in magical secrets, and this half elf bard can shut down casters with counter spell, burn clustered enemies with a fireball, summon a flying mount like a paladin, or teleport around with steel wind strike, smacking 5 enemies for 6d10 force damage while teleporting around on your pegasus. Not to mention the disabling effects from the standard bard array of spells that can shut down groups like hypnotic pattern, synaptic static. A few more levels, you get to pick even more spells from other classes. But what happens if your cleric goes down, who can heal? You can mr. bard. Toss out a healing word as a bonus action while you fly above danger to get that cleric back up on their feet, or better yet, let them use the mount, making sure you will be the cleric's favorite ;)

But the best part is Cutting words. Get hit with an attack by a monster but it's a really close roll? use your inspiration to make that baby a miss.

A pure rogue is good at what it does, but a bard is good at a lot of things. You can fill in a lot of jobs in a pinch, and cause a lot of havok. You might have to be more of a short bow archer than a knife wielding mad man, but you can create so many more chances to achieve victory than a rogue.

[RogueJK]

A Bard can absolutely replace a Rogue, especially when it comes to skill utility.

One great thing about 5E is that from Levels 1-10, any character can have 80% of the Rogue's skill utility covered with the right background choice, skill choices, and stats. You're not longer "required" to have a Thief/Rogue in your adventuring party; you just need a character or characters who can pick locks, find and disarm traps, and scout.

And specifically a Bard can have 95% of the Rogue's skill utility covered, thanks to their extra skill proficiency, half-proficiency with all skills, and eventual access to Expertise for 4 skills. This is even more true for a Lore Bard, who ends up with two more proficiencies than a Rogue, and is therefore closer to 98% of the Rogue's skill utility. The primary thing the Bard gives up is just the ability to take Expertise with Thieves Tools. (And if you really want that, you can get it with the UA Burglar feat.)

Besides Thieves Tools Expertise, the only things that give the Rogue that final edge on skill utility at Levels 1-10 are their access to Expertise at slightly lower levels than a Bard, and their one additional skill proficiency over a non-Lore Bard.

(Though eventually, Rogues pull ahead a bit more, thanks to Reliable Talent starting at Level 11.)

[ZerohFG]

A Bard can absolutely replace a Rogue, especially when it comes to skill utility.

One great thing about 5E is that from Levels 1-10, any character can have 80% of the Rogue's skill utility covered with the right background choice, skill choices, and stats. You're not longer "required" to have a Thief/Rogue in your adventuring party; you just need a character or characters who can pick locks, find and disarm traps, and scout.

And specifically a Bard can have 95% of the Rogue's skill utility covered, thanks to their extra skill proficiency, half-proficiency with all skills, and eventual access to Expertise for 4 skills. This is even more true for a Lore Bard, who ends up with two more proficiencies than a Rogue, and is therefore closer to 98% of the Rogue's skill utility. The primary thing the Bard gives up is just the ability to take Expertise with Thieves Tools. (And if you really want that, you can get it with the UA Burglar feat.)

Besides Thieves Tools Expertise, the only things that give the Rogue that final edge on skill utility at Levels 1-10 are their access to Expertise at slightly lower levels than a Bard, and their one additional skill proficiency over a non-Lore Bard.

(Though eventually, Rogues pull ahead a bit more, thanks to Reliable Talent starting at Level 11.)

You said it yourself, that the right background choice can get you everything, well urchin gets you stealth, sleight of hand, disguise kit, and thieves tools.

[RogueJK]

Urchin background gets you Proficiency with Thieves Tools, not Expertise which is doubled proficiency bonus. (Urban Bounty Hunter and Criminal backgrounds also get you Thieves Tools Proficiency, but not Expertise.)

Rogues can choose Thieves Tools as an Expertise option.

Bards cannot, since they can only choose skills as Expertise options.

There are only a few ways to get Thieves Tools Expertise, including being a Rogue, taking the UA Burglar feat as I mentioned, or taking 6+ levels in Artificer to get Expertise with all tools.

[ZerohFG]

I admit I forgot that you can't bump up thieves tools with expertise as a bard. I did however suggest a work around in a post above about starting as a rogue for at least one level to get the expertise with thieves tools and a bit of sneak attack. 1 level rogue is great dip for a Bard, and lore bard has Peerless skill which even if you didn't get expertise with thieves tools, toss that self inspiration die to make up for the lack of the expertise.

[stoutstien]

I admit I forgot that you can't bump up thieves tools with expertise as a bard. I did however suggest a work around in a post above about starting as a rogue for at least one level to get the expertise with thieves tools and a bit of sneak attack. 1 level rogue is great dip for a Bard, and lore bard has Peerless skill which even if you didn't get expertise with thieves tools, toss that self inspiration die to make up for the lack of the expertise.

They also get multiple ways to bypass locks other than a SoH check. Knock, enlarge/reduce, Dem door, AA and so on.

[Nagog]

Bards, like Paladins, can cover every base with ease. They're highly adaptable, and have at least one hand in every pie.

[HappyDaze]

We have a Bard in our party being played by the guy that played a Rogue in our last game. He likes the support aspects of the character, but misses having more offensive punch because almost every time he uses an offensive spell (e.g., dissonant whispers, vicious mockery), the enemy makes the save. He rarely gets more than one effective casting out of four. He's 4th level right now with a spell save DC of 13 (not entirely optimized, but not unusually low either), and this has him wondering if he should try a new character. Even the idea that vicious mockery gets stronger at level 5 matters little to him as it still does nothing if the enemy makes the save. He laments that his rogue was consistently doing damage every turn while he feels the bard is lacking.

[RogueJK]

We have a Bard in our party being played by the guy that played a Rogue in our last game. He likes the support aspects of the character, but misses having more offensive punch because almost every time he uses an offensive spell (e.g., dissonant whispers, vicious mockery), the enemy makes the save. He rarely gets more than one effective casting out of four. He's 4th level right now with a spell save DC of 13 (not entirely optimized, but not unusually low either), and this has him wondering if he should try a new character. Even the idea that vicious mockery gets stronger at level 5 matters little to him as it still does nothing if the enemy makes the save. He laments that his rogue was consistently doing damage every turn while he feels the bard is lacking.

That's the downside of "Save or Suck" spells. If the enemy makes their save, they don't do anything. Plus, many of them in 5E now allow new saves every round, or every time they take damage, or the like, which leads to further potential frustration. And the Bard spell list is heavy on these type of spells.

With spells that allow a Save, you really have to:

A) Maximize your casting stat to maximize the save DC, and

B) Be picky about what spells you're casting on which targets. Learn the spells, and what ability save they target. Don't target the sneaky thief with a DEX save spell. Don't target the evil priest with a WIS save spell. Don't target the big burly melee monster with a CON save spell. And so on. Instead, target their weaknesses... Dexterous enemies often aren't strong. Strong enemies often aren't smart. Etc.


Or there are also other options for a Bard to contribute to combat, other than just casting spells on enemies. He could be buffing, tossing out Bardic Inspiration, using the Help action, or doing other things depending on which specific subclass he chose.


And if's dead set on wanting a source of reliable damage, he could look at multiclassing or spending a feat to open up his attack cantrip options. A level in Warlock or the Magic Initiate Warlock feat would give him access to Eldritch Blast. Or a level of Sorcerer or Magic Initiate Sorcerer would give him access to something like Fire Bolt.


Also, if the DM is open to it, there are some Unearthed Arcana releases that add additional spell options for Bards, which helps expand their somewhat narrow spell options, and which might include some additional spells that he'd like better. These include the Psionic spells from https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/UA-PsychicSoulPsionics.pdf and the expanded spell list from https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/UA-ClassFeatures.pdf

[Guy Lombard-O]

They also get multiple ways to bypass locks other than a SoH check. Knock, enlarge/reduce, Dem door, AA and so on.

They might not get expertise, but Enhance Ability is also there for advantage on the really important rolls.

[GreyBlack]

Obviously, barbarians can replace the rogue. It's hard to be spotted when you can intimidate the guards into doing what you want them to do.

"YOU NO SEE KRUG!"

They're also master trapfinders (by walking into them), master lockpickers (by breaking the door), and master sneak attackers (AXE TO THE HEAD).

In all seriousness, no class replaces another. Bards and rogues can cover the same ground, but depending on background and feat choice, so can a Fighter or a Ranger.

Play what you want to play, and don't really worry about "covering roles."

[Catullus64]

Most of the arguments in the thread seem to (understandably) focus on the Bard as a substitute for the Rogue's damage output and skills, in which departments it can compete handsomely. I will submit, however, that a large part of the Rogue's value comes not from damage and skill modifiers, but from their survivability and mobility. Cunning Action, more so than sneak attack or expertise, is what I consider to be the cornerstone of the rogue's kit. Because Rogues are often expected to scout ahead of the party, exposing themselves first to traps and enemies, they need the safety net of run-and-hide powers provided by Cunning Action, not to mention stuff like Uncanny Dodge and Evasion. Their high mobility often makes them extremely useful for fraught scenarios where getting to a target or an object one round earlier makes a huge difference.

That's not to say a Bard can't also be made to fill that role, but it needs to be considered as part of the niche when discussing whether or not the class can "replace" a Rogue. Bards generally have no personal defensive spells to speak of until level 7, with Greater Invisibility, so a Magic Initiate or multi class dip into Sorcerer might be warranted. I would also prioritize getting ahold of the Mobile feat as soon as possible.

[Snowbluff]

A Swords Bard's damage needn't only come from unaugmented basic attacks + flourish.

Greater Invisibility? That's a DPR booster. Animate Objects? DPR booster. Simulacrum? Straight up doubles you. Holy Sword, Elemental Weapon, Shadow Blade, Contingency, Greater Steed, Hex, Crown of Stars, Banishing Smite? These and more are all things that Bards can grab if they're so inclined. And since you mention Paladin 2, that lets you scale damage even more with your spell slots (via smites).

Basically, you don't have to "level off" at 6th level. There's plenty more options down the line which can indeed compete with Sneak Attack growth.

Don't forget Holy Weapon and Tenser's Transformation. With a ring of spell storing and a greater steed, you can dump out of lot of damage in any bard spec, although whispers and swords would do the most.

[deljzc]

If you can convince your DM to find a background that gets you access to Thieve's Tools, Bards make very good DEX based support characters in a party.

Thieve's tools is almost a skill in-and-of itself that a party needs but how they get it outside of the Rogue class is sometimes up to the DM. I've played where DM's don't allow anyone other than Rogues to have them and others where they are pretty easy to get.

I'm curious how everyone handles "Thieve's Tools" in general? Hard to get? Necessary for your party?

[Guy Lombard-O]

I'm curious how everyone handles "Thieve's Tools" in general? Hard to get? Necessary for your party?

I believe you could pick proficiency using the Downtime rules in Xanathar's.

[HappyDaze]

If you can convince your DM to find a background that gets you access to Thieve's Tools, Bards make very good DEX based support characters in a party.

Thieve's tools is almost a skill in-and-of itself that a party needs but how they get it outside of the Rogue class is sometimes up to the DM. I've played where DM's don't allow anyone other than Rogues to have them and others where they are pretty easy to get.

I'm curious how everyone handles "Thieve's Tools" in general? Hard to get? Necessary for your party?

Nobody in my party has proficiency in Thieves Tools, and it has hardly mattered at all. Most locked doors and chests can be muscled open (especially with a crowbar) and the knock spell can help out on really tough ones. As for traps, most are little more than nuisances and you don't always need to disable a trap to avoid it, and avoidance doesn't necessarily take any special tools.